Come on Andy! Only please be nice and quick, don't want u exhausted facing Rafa!

Wow! All my birthdays and christmases have come at once! Andy playing sublime, confident tennis. Alex get out of bed and watch now :)
Stay focused Andy!

Yikes, that's the best I've seen Andy play all year. Aggressive forehands/ backhands DTL, loads of net play, forehand really firing, moving like a dream.
Come on! :) :) :) :) :)

Yes Andy playing very well this tournament, Rafa will have his hands full tomorrow.

One thing about Ferrer today, why did he camp at the baseline and trade ground strokes with Murray all day? Doomed to fail as Murray can practically run down any ball and anticipated Ferrer's move so well. Maybe his serve was the issue today and he can't control the point with that and hence no chance to move up to the net. He certainly had done better than today, during his clay tournaments this year and last year.

Lucky, are you saying Murray won't have his hands full tomorrow?

Another Andy-Rafa match.........final this time........................these two must be sick of each other's sight by now..................

zare, sorry, but I think Andy has stolen Nole's confidence pills....and he's not giving them back.....;)

Not as much as Rafa vs Nole this year and they're all finals. Rafa vs Murray for the fifth time this year but only a first final. Murray certainly has great hands at the net and I think he'll play like the third set of their USO match this year, mixing things up a bit, S&V a bit, serves big followed by aggressive forehands. Also he'll chase down every ball Rafa hit at him; I still remember Rafa shaking his head after Murray got to and returned some seemingly unretrievable shots last year at the WTF.

To me Murray is playing very well now but Rafa not so, maybe just quite well or reasonably well but certainly not very well. I really hope Rafa can be consistent with his serving, no wobbling like that kind at IW anymore please, and also makes improvement in his ROS. I feel that he missed many chances of breaking his opponents' serves because he didn't return serves well. Homework for Rafa during the year end break!

Murray beats Ferrer whom Rafa beats regularyly (13-4) and Rafa beats Fish who is at par with Murray (4-4), Fish even beating Murray 3 times in a row last year, and some people think Rafa is the underdog tomorrow. I'm not even going to mention their h2h. How would Murray have fared if he had to play Fish instead of Ferrer, I wonder. If Murray had beaten Rafa at the USO it wouldn't matter how well Rafa played in Tokyo and how badly Murray played, some people would latch on to 'the USO win' and say Rafa doesn't stand a chance.

Of course not even Rafa will go into the match assuming he'll win, but a tinny winny bit of respect shown for Rafa would be great sometimes. He's a great player. Enough of the down-playing.

^^^^hear, hear...........and let's not start the "Muzza's better than Rafa on hard courts" debate, 'coz the H2H says otherwise:

Murray v Nadal head to head:
?Hard court 3-4
?Indoor 1-2
?Grass 0-3
?Clay 0-4

Of course that doesn't stop me stomach behaving badly each time these 2 meet.........I know Muzza's got game..............but the good thing is: Rafa knows it, and always pays attention!

Deuce: You are right. He was a joy to watch and simply swatted Ferrer out of his way. I swear it's all down to that haircut. His whole demeanour has been transformed. He is so much more calm and confident. Almost no swearing. No self-harming. And he means business - he's got his eye on that No.3 slot!

Tomorrow should be a great match if they both play at today's level.

Lucky: With you re: Rafa. Once one could be confident he would fight back when he fell behind. Now too often there is a niggling doubt. And his failure to convert break points is a new worry. I'm not holding out any high expectations for the rest of this year but we have seen him regroup before after a bad spell and come storming back again. Let's wait and see what 2012 brings.

PS: By bad spell I mean the run of losses to Nole. It's not like he's had a bad year except by his normal standards!

thank you, nadline...that is exactly what I was thinking...It's a bit too much to listen to this story of Rafa is not doing well, he should improve this and that, Rafa is in decline, Rafa grinds out the match and so on...and I am speaking in general terms, please, nobody should be affected with this or feel responsible to reply to this...I just find it inappropriate to consider Rafa underdog in almost any match just because he lost to Nole 6 times this year...All I am saying is that Rafa could not have reached all those finals if he was underperforming so much...and even if he was not playing HIS best one should understand and admit to the fact that Rafa's NOT BEST was enough for him to go all the way beating top players on that road sometimes very convincingly...And he should be congratulated for being in all those finals and not only criticized for losing them. I believe in Rafa and I find his results this year still great achievements...he is such an unbelievable individual!

One thing spoiled Rafans should learn from Fedfans is their respect for Fed's game...you will hardly ever hear them criticize Fed for losing the match and they will always find the reasonable explanation protecting their idol...here we are witnessing Rafans being the worst critiques which of course can be a good thing...but, what hurts me the most is that Rafans lose their faith in Rafa and they tend to underestimate his chances...nobody is perfect, and even Nole was not perfect this year but he found his ways to win all the matches even when not being at his 100%...Rafa is no different than that...I so admire his consistency, his willingness to fight and overcome defeats, his high motivation...he is simply amazing...

Just tired of reading about Rafa's shortcomings against Murray's exemplary talents. Rafa has beaen Murray 4 times this year and 5 out of the last 5 times. We can even stretch it to 6 out of the last 7 times that Rafa has beaten Murray.

People judge Rafa too harshly. OK so Rafa didn't beat Giraldo easily, would Murray have beaten Giraldo the way he played against Rafa?

Vamos Rafa!

Sorry Murray fans, it was not my intention to occupy Murray?'s thread with the story of Rafa...nadline's post was the reason why I had to add my sentiments about this whole down-playing issue...

And regarding the match tomorrow...Andy is playing great...in fact he was playing very well the whole season, his improved results this year prove it, so there is nothing new about it...one thing is certain though: these two guys know each other very well...it can go either way...but I give Rafa more chances given the result in their encounters this year...It will be a tough match but also an honor for all of us to watch great tennis...good luck to both of them tomorrow! Let the best man win!

VAMOS RAFA!!!

ed, Rafa's colours, Andy's hair cut....u r rapidly becoming the style guru of tennistalk..;)
Who on earth is putting Rafa down here? Simply saying Andy is playing gr8 at the mo., and after all the heartaches this season us Andy fans should be delighted for him :) I like his chances against Rafa in best of 3, much better than best of 5 btw. Murray magic very difficult to sustain over 5 sets with his awful concentration.
Come on Andy!

deuce, of course you should be delighted about Murray's form, you are a fan that's what is expected of a fan, to acknowledge their player not constantly put them down if they lose a set or drop their serve even if they win.

The way some Rafans berate him against other players all the time you wonder why they are in his camp because they are always fighting someone else's corner against him.

I'm not sitting here confident in the fact that Rafa will win tomorrow, I would rather Rafa was playing Bogomolov or Seppi, but I think he is a better player than Murray, their career paths prove that to be the case so why Oh why do we have to read the constant berating of Rafa against anybody all the freaking time.

Vamos Rafa!

No one is perfect so why do we expect a flawless match record of Rafa. He'll drop his serve sometimes, he'll lose sets and he'll lose matches even against players ranked well below him. That's how it is, it happens to the rest of them but losing a match or not making the final every time is not enough reason to condemn him. He's made 9 finals this year, 9 guys. This is not a player in whose game you find so much to criticise.

For me, I'm happy Rafa can see what I'm seeing in his game, those parts of which he needs to improve. I'm happy Rafa is always so honest with himself and can come to terms with his own shortcomings, and thinks of ways to improve, and that's why he's my favorite player. He's always seeking improvements, thinking of ways to maximize his full potential, even at times when he's no.1 player in the world and also when he's no.2.

Fans of other players can idol worship their players if its their desire, that's their choice. I choose to support my player, praise him when he does well, criticize him when he plays awfully and always hope for the best for him. I know he has the complete game when all of his weapons are clicking at the same time, and I'm looking forward to the day when he can make that happen. It will be a joy to behold, at least for this Rafa fan here, when Rafa's game is in full flow, with all weapons functioning and firing at their best.

PS. sorry to the Murray fans, a bit off topic here. I'm sure you're also waiting to see Murray's complete game in full flow some day. Hopefully, you need not wait too long for that.

Lucky, I so look forward to you praising Rafa, just once in a while. I'm wondering whether I should start skipping your posts because they are so depressing for a Rafan to read.

Please refer to the match report for today's match!

lucky, I don't think Andy will ever be as consistent as Rafa, or Fed in his pomp for that matter, but I certainly expect him to win a slam or two :) And today, apart from his serve, his game was indeed in "full flow" and a joy to watch, so for the moment I'm very happy with that :)

zare, sorry, but I think Andy has stolen Nole's confidence pills....and he's not giving them back.....;)
deuce, 10/8/11 10:58 AM

It's only a matter of time imo that they will be 1 and 2 in the rankings. If Murray reaches his potential he's right there. Look at what Nole did this year. I suspect Andy will do something similar next year. Not even a fan really but seems inevitable.

this has nothing to do with Andy as I do to think that he has great potentials, but what I see is that numero would support anyone as long as it is against Rafa...

numero, I bet you were predicting great future for Soderling when he beat Rafa in FO...where you among those who predicted Sod to be No1? How about Dodig? Is he among your favorite players as well?...lol...

Yes deuce, I noticed Murray's first serve percentage is always in the fifties. However, he's winning a high percentage of that. His problem is always the second serves!

Actually, while watching Rafa today, he got me worried when he netted a few first serves. I was saying to myself 'oh no, Rafa, please no repeat of that IW final'. Rafa's first serve percentage was also in the fifties today but he won seventy over % of those. The difference here for Rafa compared to Murray is in the second serves % won. Rafa won a high %, 85% whilst Murray's second serve % won is much poorer.

I don't understand why some take offence here, but Rafa even without his best game is still very hard to beat. I'm sure every player who played against him would say so, even Nole. In fact its a compliment to Rafa, that despite not at his best, he's still able to reach so many finals and is far ahead of the no.3 player in terms of ranking points won this year. Just imagine how good he will be when he gets everything right at the same time. A Rafa with game in full flow vs a Murray with game in full flow, now that will be very interesting, and I wonder who will win. My guess will be Rafa most of the time.

@numero , 10/8/11 3:06 PM

That's what happens Rafa is berated by his own fans, it provides ample vigour for his haters to twist the knife.

nadline: I dont think you should interpret any of the above comments as condemning or berating Rafa when he looses. The problem is Rafans have been spoilt for so long we have came to expect he would always pull the chestnuts out of the fire. Think of all the times he won big matches which he had all but lost! So now if he loses a match (particularly when he was expected to win) it is understandable if there is a disproportionate sense of disappointment.

That is also why I empathise with Murray fans - he is my No.2 favourite - and goodness knows there have been enough disappointments to endure over the years.

Conflict of interests coming up tomorrow but at least I will be pleased for whoever wins.

Well if we can only post pleasing words but nothing else, then I've to stop posting about Rafa here. You all can take over. I'll happily post about other players!

But ed, he didn't lose, he won.

The minute he won the USO after all the finger pointing about how he would never win it, we had a big debate instigated by Rafans about how Nole and Murray were more talented on h/c than Rafa. What was the point of that at a time when he had confounded all the unbelievers, his own fans took pleasure in pouring cold water on his victory even before he was back in Mallorca.

It happens ALL the time. I have said on occasions that Rafa didn't do this or that well in a match but for people to constantly try to make out that Murray is a better player than Rafa riles me no end, so at the risk of sounding like an old record, I am going to choose the posts I read before and after a match because I can't help but say something when I read the usual put downs.

nadline: I know he won today - I got up in the middle of the bloody night too to watch!!!! I was merely generalising about why we have such high expectations and postulating that he is not as infallible as perhaps he once was. And to be honest I dont consider an analysis of why he might have lost to be a put down.

BTW: Be careful. 'The Beadles About' probably heading this way soon ;-)))

lucky.. I have to humbly agree with nadline & natashao that your posts are 85% picking faults in Rafa even when he wins. If a person is not watching tennis and is not keeping tabs of scores, and has to make an assessment of guessing Rafa's results only on basis of reading your posts, they would reach a conclusion that Rafa has like won 11 matches this season and lost 63 whereas the actual stats is the reverse :-)

I humbly agree that Rafa is not like 2008, first 4 months 2009, 2010 and we are ourselves surprised how can Rafa be plagued by nerves, tire a bit , lose serve, not convert break points as effectively..but then I still maintain hes not as horrible as hes made out to be :-)..lse he wouldnt have won 63 matches this year

Regarding tomms match watching todays match, I predict Murray to win this..hes more hungry I think in his quest to take the o 3 ranking away from Fed

@natashao, 10/8/11 3:12 PM

I stated above that I'm not really a fan of Murray. I could name at least 10 players that I like more than him. That being said, I've also stated in the past that it would be a great sports story for him to win Wimbledon given his nationality and the history.

Andy played a great match against Ferrer and looks to be in great form for the final. I am also happy with how Rafa played against Fish. A very worthy effort and to see him being aggressive and gettinc great court position, to see how he made the necessary adjustments, was a joy to see.

What I will say about the final, is that this may be Murray's chance to get a win over Rafa. Taking Rafa out in a slam is a whole different challenge. Having said that, I am confident that Rafa will come out ready to defend his title. His game has been getting better in every match and he will be motivated to win this title again. I am not betting against him.

It's unfortunate to see Rafa fans going at each other with all that we have had to deal with on this forum of late. I believe that all Rafa fans here love him and want the best for him. I don't question anyone's motives or reasons for saying what they think. That is what a forum is for and everyone should feel free to express themselves. What I love so much about Rafa, is that he is not afraid to look at his game honestly, see what is not working well and do something about it. It is part of the man qualities that have made him a great champion and contributed to his success.


Good luck to both players!

Sorry, I meant to say - It is part of the MANY qualities that have made him a great champion and contributed to his success.

@ed, you previously asked for evidence with respect to Rafafans fighting amongst themselves if Fed fans weren't in the mx. Well, this thread is one fine example and bears out my thinkikng on the matter. I knew if I waited I'd be able to give you some proof without digging for the evidence, but I never thought I'd see it happen so quickly. I'm grinning like a Cheshire cat, or the one that swallowed the canary.

"Fans of other players can idol worship their players if its their desire, that's their choice. I choose to support my player, praise him when he does well, criticize him when he plays awfully and always hope for the best for him."

This is honest, pure love, not blind worship. There are others who can't face the truth even when it stares them in the face, coz they have placed their player on this high pedestal that makes it virtually impossible for them to accept nothing less than perfect. Thus, when another speaks about the flaws, its as though they are insulting the blind worshipper, and it's very painful for them to handle, hence they lash out blindly to ease the pain. I suppose living vicariously through someone else does that to some, which is very sad.

@nadline , 10/8/11 4:44 PM , This is what Fed fans have to deal with from you on an hourly basis, day by day, week by week, month by month, but I can't say year by year, coz i've only been here for a little more than 3 months. I hope now you'll understand how the putdowns feel to us Fed fans.

I should have added the following to my 10:33 pm post to nadline:

@nadline: "I have said on occasions that Rafa didn't do this or that well in a match but for people to constantly try to make out that Murray is a better player than Rafa riles me no end,.."

Try accepting facts, it's what Fed fans have to deal with from you with the H2H.

scoretracker, and I thought I would never see a Fed fan supporting and praising a Rafan and that is exactly what you are doing...things do change, do they?

@natashao, I've supported Nadal many times here on this forum and elsewhere, e.g., Tennis.com, so much so that some thought he was my fave. When I initially began posting here, I did praise him a lot, until one day holdserve, in her infinite wisdom, decided to pick on me and mentioned that I was being patronising and my comments didn't seem genuine, so I stopped. I also did agree with another Rafafan a few weeks ago, but then got stabbed in the back.

The problem with a lot of Nadal fans is they absolutely will not criticize him about anything,even if it is warranted. He does zero wrong,and always plays his best no matter what. They are also excuse makers,and will make up any excuse they can in order to explain away his lousy play. The truth is Nadal has played below average just about all year long with a few decent matches thrown in. He plays too short,too far behind the baseline,he's much too defensive,his ros is junk and either floats high or drops too short,and he has the yips on his serve. Realizing that he is in decline would be beneficial for some of his fantards on here. Some of you are so optimistic you are delusional.

To my fellow Rafa fans,

I am proud of all of you! Yes, Rafa fans can disagree but in a polite and respectful way. We don't have to worship Rafa as Fed fans worship their guy as though he was a God.

Nobody threw out cheap personal insults, no nasty digs or hatespeak. That's what it's all about! A real discussion with people feeling free to give their own opinions about their favorite without fear or prejudice.

Well done, Rafa fans!

ChicaMarie, watch out someone will be gunning for you.Don't you know you're not allowed to talk about this site's god?Love the congressional preamble while taking digs at Fed fans from the custodian of this site.

ChicaMarie - everyone knows Nadal has played worse this year than he did last year

that doesn't mean he is in decline

was he in decline when he suffered through 2009? No, he had a rough spell then bounced back better than ever in 2010.

scoretracker, 10/8/11 10:09 PM

It hadn't escaped my notice. I stand corrected. Apologies.

ed,

Come on now! Do you honestly think that discussion above is anything like what has happened with Fed fans? Did anyone throw cheap shots at Rafa or call him names? I saw a few Rafa fans have an honest disagreement among themselves. We are different from Fed fans in that we can actually see Rafa as a person and not a God or immortal.

Sometimes my way of dealing with Rafa's losses or when he is not playing his best, is to analyze his game. Maybe that was what luckystar was doing and some misinterpreted it. We are all on the same side. I think that everyone was civlized and didn't make it personal.

I think it's unfortunate that anyone would jump all over a polite disagreement just to make a point or be right. That's not what it's about. :)

NNY: I agree it stopped short of breaking into a fight. I apologised to Scoretracker because a few days ago I'd asked him to provide examples of in fighting amongst Rafans and I felt yesterday's squabling came perilously close to being just that. There were quite a few unecessarily snide remarks flying around.

ed,

You are an honorable person. I can only admire your integrity. I just am concerned about people starting to feel like someone is looking over their shoulder when they post comments. We want people to think and express their feelings without fear of retribution and recrimination.

That is all I was trying to say!

It's all good always with you! :)