I know I'm probably in the minority here, but tennis badly needs Rafa and Roger back to regain their past position at the top of the game. Many people bemoaned the fact that their rivalry was too dominant in the game, but their contrasting styles and classic encounters still proved to be the most watchable event in tennis.

All opposed to the alternative we have at the moment. There will be people stating that it's freshened up the game having the Nadal-Federer rivalry near it's end. In my own opinion it's far less appealing watching Djokovic win everything with Murray being the opponent most likely to threaten him. This is not a slant on either player and everyone needs their time to shine, but the men's game is proving to be a bit of a turn off at the moment, at least both Montreal and Cincinatti anyway.

I hope the pendulmum starts to swing back in favour of the previous top two in the US Open but it already looks like Djokovic will sweep through that tournament as well. 2012 will be the time that the top of the men's game becomes more interesting again.

Nonsense, neither Rafa nor Roger deserve to be at their former positions because Nole is playing better and is a lot more consistent these days. What people perceive isn't really relevant, imo Nole plays far more entertaining tennis than Nadal at least (and I do like him streets ahead of Federer) and I'm sure there are plenty of people who share the same opinion. I'd rather see Nole dominate the next few years crushing all opposition before him - and its what I want, just like you want Fedal back. Tennis DOES NOT NEED either of these scenarios, whoever wins more deserves to be at the top, simple as that.

what tennis needs is a real rivalry where every match will go either way in the end. djokovic dominating/crushing every opponent?
do we want a weak era?
we want someone to step up and challenge djokovic. nobody wants to watch a pretty predictable match.

@Samprallica.

It's not a case of Rafa or Roger deserving a return to the top, or people's perceptions. It's about the overall appeal of the game and what makes it watchable.

One of the most important elements of any sport is competitiveness. And it can't be denied that the Nadal-Federer rivalry transcended the sport, reviving the interest in the sport that had been deflated during the mid to late 90s and early 2000s. For the best part of six years its was like an event watching them against each other, not just tennis fans but sport fans in general took notice and the endless comparisons, GOAT debates meant the men's game was always being talked about.

I absolutely agree with you that Djokovic deserves his place at the top - not sure his tennis is as watchable - but of course he's been the most consistent player this year. But I don't see how him crushing all opponents for the next couple of years makes the game more entertaining, much in the same way that Sampras's or Federer's dominance certainly stifled the game until Agassi & Nadal came along.

There's nothing wrong with having a dominant player as long as there is an opponent who is equally good enough to challenge him. Having two forces setting the standard at the top always makes sport more interesting, think Barcelona & Real Madrid, or Pacquaio & Mayweather.

What the game needs at the moment is for someone to beat Djokovic, three or four times in a row, once in a slam final. This would then create a new rivalry to get everyone talking about. Now I personally would like to see Rafa do this and still believe he will next year, but if not him then Del Potro or Murray. Someone to put a consistent run together and threaten Nole's position. This is what tennis needs now.

Yes, and time Andy stepped up to the challenge. Cometh the hour.....

@lebsta2..
i think you know where you are from ;)

well, i just watched the 2010 USO and rafa was in a clear mission..he is missing that now...hope my dream comes true just as it came true in wimby :-(

ok ok, everytime i want nole to lose, he wins..so ok, I WANT HIM TO WIN USO!

You want a story to make tennis interesting? Well, we've got one, can Nole go on to have one of the greatest seasons of all time? I'd like for him to keep winning so that the suspense continues.

I don't remember anyone saying the same thing when Rafa was virtually demolishing everyone last year in the slams. And I'm sure if Rafa had been in Nole's place this year, all these people would have been going on about "Oh look at Rafa, he's the GOAT, he's better than Fed because he hasn't had a season like this before, he's so good, he's so fast...." instead of "I'm sick of Rafa winning, can Nole please step up?".

Regardless, I still feel like Murray is the favourite to win, given Nole's form this week and the fact that Andy can use the skidiness of the court to give Nole trouble. He will have to play very well, but he usually does well in Masters Series finals, and I won't expect any less from him this time.

No suspense there, just look at the field now: Fedal not at their best, Murray still finding his way around, Delpo always has his injuries, minor or major, Sod and Ferrer injured, Berdych and Tsonga have shoulder injury issues. Among the top ten, we have Monfils and Fish still going strong but hardly able enough to trouble Nole. If Nole's shoulder holds up well, then I think there's no suspense there who's the one winning everything under the sun.

However, I think it's unlikely to see Fed's TMF like dominance these days, given how physical the games get these days, so I think if Nole still going strong, he may dominate for another season; thereafter someone may take over the dominance. I think if Fed is no longer in the mix, then we need Murray and Delpo to join Rafa and Nole and the four to make things interesting for the ATP tours. Fedal's appeal is special and we may not see that replicated anytime soon; those four young guns have the responsibility of making it interesting for the fans/viewers.

Djoker will out-mental Murray. Won't necessarily out-play him.

Oh Ricky, at least I can give a wry smile at your comment lol.
If Andy can serve at around 60% he will win. If he can't he won't. It's so simple.......
so zare, no need for twitching, itching or witchetying......

I think if Murray can somehow stpe up and win a Slam final against Djoko and becomes Djoko worst nightmare, then there'll be an insteresting rivalry. Murray-Djokovic@DjoMuzz@Murrovovic

These two have very constrast style as well. Murray likes to toy and overwhelm an opponent with his skills while Djokovic likes to overwhelm opponents with power and precision.

What tennis needs now is for Murray to STEP UP!!! The guy has a terrible personality on-court but his tennis is beautiful and I would love to see him have a rivalry with Djokovic.

Unlike the Rafa-Roger rivalry which is like soccerer Vs apprentice or prince vs king. I would love to see a rivalry where the players grew up together and challenge each other.

Comeon Murray, STEP UP!!

Because of CBS and their silly scheduling, the men's final is going on before the women's final. What nonsense! I'm sure Nole and Murray will love it.;)

If Murray realizes his full potential, then yes, he'll give Nole all sorts of problems. I think Murray is the player to trouble Nole during his reign, as Fed ages and Rafa cutting down his playing schedule as he grows older, to prolong his career. Delpo to me is a mystery, just when i thought he's back and healthy, he gets injured again. When he's on, he's awesome but his body also breaks down easily, so I think he won't be a real threat to Nole and Murray.

Djoko losing this may be actually good for him..will take the pressure off him for US Open a bit..

OM! djokovic should not have quitted! the rain delay might have given him enough rest for his injury!

This is bad..I didnt expect him to retire.. He should have completed the match and given Murray the victory rather than putting an * against it.

Sorry zare, you're man has just played too much tennis :(
See you in New York!
alex, something to cheer, Andy is top in the tournament for points won on first serve return :)

Poor Nole tried to carry on with the match maybe thinking about the additional responsibility as no.1 , but couldn't. Cut some slack guys.

what is very irritating is the commentator's statement discrediting murray's win: he (didnt have to do anything spectacular, "murray wins his 7th masters..against a weaker opponent" but the way i say the match, murray played spectacular and definitely outplayed djokovic. no wonder many fans are led to hatred against other players because of these kinds of commentator.

Well I think in a GS/Masters fnal either you step on court and play the match or dont step on court if you injured. He had to just play for 15-20 mns more..could have waited..

raghav, I was listening to bet365 with Konic and another. Yesterday against Fish was especially awful but today as well, when Andy hit a good shot, there was almost disbelief! Grrrr.. but would never hold that against Nole supporters :)

@deuce
then we must be listening to the same channel.. i dont know these people but it is clear he wants djokovic to win (he couldnt hide his biases as expected from a professional commentator). and worse, he was the one justifying djokovic's loss with his shoulder injury.

First all congrats to Andy and his respectable fans.
Just to much tennis for Nole... 10 matches in 14 days... to much :(
But OK... this doesn't change anything really for him... he still added 420 point to his, now, very well secured N01.
Injury started 3 days ago... and got worse... he was in pain obviously. And he did best he could to finish the match... but when Tomas retired... when Tsonga retired... there was a lot of understanding for them... I mean USO is in one week.
So any comments about "he should finished"... are very much out of place... I am not even try to comment...
Good for Andy... yes...I agree he has to step up!
Story about watchable tennis... well that depends on taste... If someone like to watch only Rafa and Fed finale... OK... make a tournament just for them and enjoy.
So... Novak unbelievable season is still on... he has one more finale in Master series.
If I am not wrong... he will have... 13920 points... almost 14...
Get some rest Novak... there is 8,9 days before start of USO... heal your shoulder... and continue to make us all proud!!!!
....
THANKS DEUCE... you and Alex deserve this... sorry, I know there is few more Andy's fans here... congrats to them also :)
...seeya in NY:)

btw wat exactly is problem with shoulder? did he pick it up in last 2 weeks or was it earlier too ? dont know what exactly is the injury..hence asking

Guys..so wat as per you should the draw be like for USO?

Rafa - Fed
Rafa - Murray
Djoko-Fed
Djoko-Murray

What are pros n cons of each?

in an injury, he initially dispelled the rumors about his injury and that his shoulder was fine (nothing to worry about). however, before the finals, he said he was not 100%, etc.

no rafa-djoko? i would love rafa to get another attempt!

5s deuce. I'm smiling smugly because I've been quietly confident all week about this one - and I did you proud in not jinxing him by saying so.
1 wek to FM - get ready to GO MUZZZZZZZ!

Raghav..am talking of semis..Rafa/Nole can only play each other in finals..The 4 combos are for semis

I think USO final will be Murray VS Djoker unless Rafa somehow find his last year's form and Fed somehow decides to face the truth and goes all out instead of going into every match with the idea that he can win just by thinking he can win it.

The sad thing is Murray has a knack of disappointing his backers in Slam level and got bundled out several times before the final and when he does get to the final, he suddenly became nervous partly because of the burden of breaking the British duck.

provided Murray Rafa both reach semis..their face offs are brutual.. I would prefer Rafa..Fed to square off in semi..Ofcourse its no given that Rafa will beat Fed..but the match will be shorter compared to Murray Rafa which will go on n on nd with no break for final, t can get brutual

I would prefer Rafa - Fed and Djoko-Murray semi..Though my heart wants Rafa - Fed to atleast context 1 USOpen final too..it deserves to be in their rivalry

what the heck was that, Djokovic

Ricky,

Thank you for saying exactly what is in my mind!

Good to see Murray win, but not good to see Nole again retire when he can't come up with the goods.

Nole's draws in the last two tourneys were very easy, or else he would have lost in Montreal much earlier before getting to the finals. In Cincy, he was struggling, but got lucky with the scheduling. Perks of the No.1 player, I guess.

Dunno how there could be a shoulder problem, coz he was able to sustain long, grinding rallies, which is his style. To me, if a player has a sholulder problem wouldn't they want to end the rallies quickly? However, that was not the case with Novak, in any of his matches, and I'm questioning this recent shoulder injury and retirement. I think he could have had the grace to just remain in the match and let Murray get an outright win, instead of the retirement. All he had to do was stay in the match, coz it was just 3 more games to end the set. That's poor sportsmanship disallowing his opponent an outright win by citing injury. He's been dropping little hints over the past two weeks about the shoulder, so why didn't he just withdraw from Cincy if it was such a huge problem? Sorry Nole fans, I don't buy this recent injury. To me it was the same with tape on the knee at MonteCarlo, where he withdrew, but was on the court everyday practising. With his retirement history, I find it hard to believe there is a genuine injury with the shoulder, but just that he finally had to play a tougher opponent, aside from the easy ones he faced. I'll stand corrected and apologize after his MRI results are released, if he indeed has a shoulder problem, but until then, I'll stick to my views on this matter.

I agree with lebasta, tennis has indeed become very disinteresting, with one guy winning coz the others are not up to their usual level coupled with being handed some very easy draws. In view of the USO scandal, I think ATP just wants to have more variety of winners coz some fans complain about the Fedal domination, but handing out and fixing the draws to make hings easier for Nole to win is not the answer. In Nole's win/loss stat, how many non-top 10 wins are recorded? About 40. That stat says it all.

I see the Fed hater holdserve is not here anymore. Can't believe she accused others of using multiple IDs when she was guilty of doing just that. ha ha. BTW, to mara02, I'm back and still blogging as 'scoretracker'. I guess you rememeber our last interaction wherein you said I'll return using a different blog name, well, guess what, you were dead wrong.

"Sorry zare, you're man has just played too much tennis :(
See you in New York!"

deuce, you confuse me. I thought you were one very strong Nole supporter, that said, isn't he your man also?

Scoretracker- I agree with you 100% and I was once a djokovic supporter!
There is no way Rafa or Roger would have retired in the final when they had 3 more games to go. They would have shown respect to their opponent, to their ranking and too the fans. This is another reason why they are beloved by so many.

Djokovic was hitting the ball ok..he could have held out for 12 more points, but the truth is Andy Murray was playing really and because of this he and his irritated shoulder he threw the towel in and it something you dont do in a final. If his shoulder was such a problem he should have retired earlier in the tournament and let someone else have a crack at the title!

In Novak's presser he mentioned he could have stayed in the match, but what for? He couldn't beat a player like Murray with only one stroke (not verbatim).

That remark says it all about his lack of sportsmanship. A top player remains in the match as a courtesy to the guy who's playing better and deserves the 'W", that's 'what for', not coz you won't win.

isabeau: See my comment @7;25 am, which was written before reading yours.

Novak's selfish attitude is why I can't warm up to him, ever. He'll never be the No. 1 that Roger and Rafa have been, coz, it's all about Novak and how much attention he can garner. Dunno, but that remark he made, 'what for', speaks volumes and is NOT becoming of a No. 1 player.

I mentioned in another post that if his shoulder was so bad, he should have withdrawn before the tournament. he did that with the knee excuse at Monte Carlo, albeit he was out on the practise courts daily, so why not do the same at Cincy? I think he wanted to get the record for the back to back tourneys, but when Murray brought the heat, he threw in the towel. Too bad.

Scoretracker-
Yes he threw in the towel. This is what pisses me off.
But in contrast Rafa played on one leg, literally against Ferrer in the AO Quarterfinals this year and lost 6-4, 6-2, 6-3 and did not quit out of respect for his opponent. Rafa has retired before but as I said he would never do it in a Final.
But Novak couldnt be bothered, it came down to him having a spat that if he couldnt win he wasnt going to finish, end of story

Well, he knew beforehand that he has shoulder troubles. He had the option not to play.

But he decided to play, with that, it meant he had to finish it.

What he just gave murray was a half-baked victory..oh well, why would he (djoker) care?

Lol, scoretracker, so Nole's win in Montreal was because of lucky draws and his finals appearance was because of good scheduling. I swear I can say the same thing for a whole host of tournaments Fedal won when they dominated. And mind you, you should check your list of non-top 10 wins for their best seasons and you will find similar stats.

As for poor sportsmanship, I concur - yes it was quite unsporting of Nole to quit at that scoreline. Doesn't mean he won't be the no.1 Roger or Rafa ever were, you can find plenty of vices about them if you want to.

If Novie had won the first set, you can be sure he would have went all out in the next
one for the W, despite the slight injury.
And he thought he could, that's why he took to the court.
Also it was like a furnace out there!
His decision was unsporting but logical @ least...

I don't care whether Nole quit or not, I'm only interested in how Murray plays. Murray did play well this tournament, he always started slowly each match but somehow found his own way to deal with his opponents. There's just so much varieties in his games, I still think only two players who are really a problem for Murray, ie Rafa and Fed. Even though he has a 8-6 H2H against Fed, those victories are always hard earned ones. I always feel that Nole and Murray's level is close, maybe not this year but in the past, except on clay. This year alone, in Nole's best year so far, Murray is still able to get close and then beat him now. To me whether Nole has a sore shoulder or not, Murray would still be able to beat him today. Murray can just stay with Nole throughout the long rallies and he's patient enough not to pull the trigger too soon. Rafa failed this year because he didn't have the fitness to stay with Nole in the rallies and often pulled the trigger too soon and lost the point. Congrats to Murray, hopefully he can carry this momentum with him to the USO.

Not always hard earned Lucky my sweet,
His last V against the Fed (in Shanghai) was an easy one despite Fedrerer being in-form that week, depends on the context a lot (big stage = big nerves).
Wins against Rafa are always difficult of-course (& rare) but I do think that might start to change, a lot of it is psychological rather than superior talent.
Belief, Confidence, Maturity etc.
As for Cincy, well he didn't really have to do anything `Rome`, he felt that Today he could stay with a slightly crumpled Novie in the long `Nadalesque` rallies so stuck with his usual fall back game.
But it was more fun to watch than the disapointingly soporific Simon/Murray cat and mouse show in the previous couple of rounds...

Haha...it's so sweet and easy to hate Novak :)))
When Berdy retired... Nole was lucky...
When Tsonga retired... ( and three days ago win over inform Stepanek)... everybody understand... lol
When Fognini does not even show up with comment " Well if it's someone else... but against Novak... :( "...that's OK...
But when Novak retired....WOOOOOOOW... "HE WILL NEVER BE ROGER OR RAFA"... LOL!
Ofc... he will be Novak!
If he plays and win.... it is boooooring and unwatchable... :)
If he plays and lost... he was outclassed ...done and dusted... dominated...
If he plays injured... He shouldn't play at all...
If he retired... he is faking !
...

As I can see...some ppl here would be satisfied only if he retired from tennis completely...
...
Now correct me if I am wrong... Rafa!!!
_____________________________________________________________ _

If he plays and win.... all vamos... and deserved... and warrior's things ect...
If he plays and lost... he was injured... he had a bad day...
If he plays injured... he should take care about his health...
If he retired... Well done and wise decison!!!
...
Now...let me see... ofc. Federer...
_______________________________________________________
I f he plays and win.... it is sublime... work of genius... swiss precision... ecstasy...
If he plays and lost... it is upset... world tragedy... he is tired...
If he plays injured... Well 64 years ago he had mono...
If he retired... he had never done that... I admit... but he often change his schedule and simply skip the tournament...
_______________________________________________________ ______
Should I say anything more???

@Zare,

ha-ha-ha-ha!
You may have a point.....

Zare-
The point is he retired in a FINAL. He could have stayed out there for 3 more games, 12 points, but he himself said he could, but why bother when he couldnt beat a guy like Murray with one arm. He said it in his press conference.
Its just about respect thats all.

Have you watched the match isabeau?
From the beginning it was obvious that he is injured. His serve was droping fast... he had first serve 90 mph... he was trying really to continue... he entered sec. set just to try to give Andy respectful victory... but the pain was to strong, and not to mention risk of greater injury if front of USO.
But nevertheless I am just curious to find out isabeau...Is there any trace of true in my 8/22/11 12:59 PM post??

Didn't watch Cincinnati at all unfortunately, and was away this weekend. Quite bummed that Nole retired when the match was almost over, but its too harsh of some posters here to question the injury itself. Hope he recovers in time for the USO.

That said, seems like Andy was brilliant, so congrats deuce/alex/sosueme!

zare @ 8/22/11 12:59 PM - Nothing but the truth.

@zare:
everything you said was true. And by your latest post, you have become what you pointed out earlier.
Welcome to the club!

P.S. Do you know why people hate his retirement? Because he showed how he cannot swallow defeat after his winning streak.
Compare that rafa in FO 2009: he was booed by the french, pummeled by soderling, but he played and lost.
For roger: when he was beaten by guys on surfaces where he reigned, did he quit?

Considering djokovic's love for attention, his modesty during interviews just don't fit. And the fact that his victories made his head bigger than his gluten-free body was magnified by his retirement in the face of a loss.

I totally agree with zare regarding double standards. Like I said, you can find plenty about Roger and Rafa to question if you wanted to. Roger's press conferences when he's lost, Rafa always takes over 20s, so on and so forth. Not condoning Nole's actions, but you can find wrong in any of them if you want to.

In the end, it comes down to the fact most Fedal fans (note:Most and more Rafa fans than Fed ones) are just sour about how Nole's usurped their ranking and status temporarily, and how they are eager to find every chance to bash him. Well, its not often that they've had that chance this year, so I guess we can allow them that luxury.

@raghav... sorry mate... I am not sure that I understand this part:
"And by your latest post, you have become what you pointed out earlier."
As you have surely noticed my English is far away from perfect.
You are suggesting that I used double standards in my last post ?
Yes... I agree about Rafa's game with Sod, but was it wise... did he done himself favor there? We all see how many times he hurt himself with that kind of thinking. And he had payed few times dearly for that...

at least this makes discussion of who is going to win the US Open more interesting

@zare
"From the beginning it was obvious that he is injured. His serve was droping fast... he had first serve 90 mph... he was trying really to continue... he entered sec. set just to try to give Andy respectful victory... but the pain was to strong, and not to mention risk of greater injury if front of USO."

just like what you pointed out at 12:59, how we nadal fans always try to justify for him, you are also doing the same for djokovic.

regarding rafa's game with sod... of course it was wise. nadal is the most beleguared tennis player in the world because he toppled federer. he is the most scrutinized player in the world, sometimes its a pity, he doesnt know where to place himself. and if he quit during that time, am sure he will get worse than a mockery. even a lowly animal could stomach.

"To me whether Nole has a sore shoulder or not, Murray would still be able to beat him today."

Hahah, no. The match was always in djokovics hands, for the simple reason that his best tennis is better than Murrays best tennis by quite a margain. period.

tj600, I'd like just to point out that last time they met, and I'm assuming then that Nole was fully fit, Andy had match point. Only Andy's blooming head stood in the way of that victory.
Your opinion about whose tennis is "better" is just an opinion, period.

deuce is quite right. period.

tj600,
Sorry to say that it's not a "period" statement from above, its just your opinion.
Novie is the best player in the world right now & so the `better player`
(better than everyone actually).
But to suggest that Novie B is fundamentally more talented
than M bear is premature for
the simple reason we haven't consistently seen Muzzys best Tennis yet, he still has to make some `makeable` improvements before he gets there.
We are however seeing Novaks now.
Nevertheless the Idea that a hardcourt 3 setter is always on Djokovics raquet
is wishful thinking methinks as even presently in Novaks peak period
(as Deuce pointed out)
Murray almost (should have)got him on a clay court in Rome. And
Novak WAS playing near his very best.
You may be eating your words if M bear hits the slipstream in the next 18mths & starts to Peak a la Novie because the enormous talent is right there waiting to take off.
However shakily it appears at the moment.

There is no question about Andy's innate talent. The only difference I see now between Andy and Nole is mental strength. That is what Andy is lacking and it is the key quality he will need to have if he is to realize his enormous potential. I believe he will get there. Absolutely!

It is truly unfortunate when someone gives an opinion and purports to represent it as fact. Andy has a complete game, with more than enough weapons in his arsenal to match Nole any day. His speed and movement on court is nothing short of phenomenal, his backhand is formidable and his serve can get him out of tough spots in any match. He has a solid forehand that can get the job done.

There is a reason why Rafa has had tough matches against Andy. Rafa knows the full measure of Andy's talent. I also believe that Nole is extremely naturally gifted with his game. Now he has the mental toughness to go along with it.

Why anyone feels the need to quantify someone's game and find it somehow inferior to Nole, is beyond me. Some people should remember that we all are expressing our opinions, we all have our biases and personal favorites.

Exactly NNY.

Also I always hear that when Fed is playing at his best, nobody can beat him or the match is always on his racket. The problem is, there are players, especially Rafa and Murray, who always have a way to not allowing Fed to play his best. Fed can be at his best when facing everyone else, but both Rafa and Murray have the skill and talent to stop Fed by not allowing him to play his best! I can also say the reverse is true, that when Rafa or Murray play against Fed, the match is on their rackets, because once they play their best, they have the abilitiy to stop Fed from playing his best.

Nole va Murray, I don't think the match is on Nole's racket, for exactly the same reason as Murray vs Fed. Murray just has the ability to vary the way he plays against anyone. Now that he has the fitness to go with his game style, what is lacking is the mentality, to stay focus and not let anything negative gets to him.

Rafa vs Murray, Rafa beats Murray more often than Murray beats Rafa because Rafa also has a good tactical brain like Murray, but Rafa is also more gutsy and always pick the right moment
to attack, though Rafa is not doing that as well this year and Murray is slowly improving in
that area. Rafa is also known to be mentally tough and very focused and he can play consistently well throughout a whole match whilst many others have their dips during a match, however that again is lacking in Rafa's game this year.

lucky,

I agree with your analogy of Fed versus both Rafa and Murray. However, I am not even sure these days that Fed can be at his best when facing everyone else. At one time that was certainly true. Now Tsonga has beaten Fed at Wimbledon and Montreal and Berdych just beat him at Cincy. Many players don't seem to fear Fed anymore. They think that there is a chance if they play their best.

I think the issue with Fed is that he can no longer sustain a high level of play. He can come up with some very good tennis, the way he did in the semifinals of RG to beat Nole. But then we see him go out in the quarters at Wimbledon to Tsonga for the first time ever.

I see Murray playing more aggressive tennis now. He did it against Nole in the semifinals at Rome and managed to come back strong in that match. I noticed that after he lost the first set, he stepped into the court to take his ROS much earlier. In that way, he took time away from Nole. He moved into the court more often and didn't try to beat Nole from the baseline. This was nice to see from Murray, because all too often he has not been able to make the necessary adjustments in the middle of a match. Unfortunately, he couldn't close it out for the win. That is his Achilles heel at the moment.

Rafa's greatest strength has always been his mental toughness. This year he has seemed to lose that all too often. He needs this quality above all else to be able to regain his winning ways, especially against Nole.

Nole is the better shotmaker on the offense, Murray is more varied and far more adept at changing pace. It usually would come down to who serves better and who plays the big points better when you have a pretty balanced matchup like that.

Novak has the the superior forehand (excluding CC & Running CC) & more reliable serve.
In the aspects of their games that are similar eg excellent movement, & defence maybe even ROS, Novie now has the edge for the simple reason he is the world number one and carries all before him.
You can't buy the kind of confidence & lift to your game that it gives you.
He also has a much better attitude on court although this again is very recent (I'm excluding the Cincy controversy) and is obviously more proactive.
I'll still take M Bears Back-Hand over Novies (or anybodys) most days but there's not much in it.
But Andy is also a wizard on the court, his spatial awareness & improvisational powers are superb & sometimes suprising when he's playing well. He's an `Arty` , skillful player, with a dash of the `infinite` about him.
Its really not about being a well oiled machine.
As Sampy suggests, he attends each shot very thoughtfully and individually in pace and selection but also in height with subtle modifcations on every one that cannot really be appreciated unless you actually go see him.
We ask him to be more aggressive (& he should be) but i fear this aspect of his game would suffer if he went too far down that route.
They have similarities, but they're not the same.
I think its mostly down to personal preference really, but one things for sure, over the next 4, 5 or more years some of the best matches ever will come from these 2 playing together & with others in the top 10.

For my money, Andy is by far the most inventive player on tour. He's got so many tricks in his box he can fall flat on his face by over-thinking what to do next. I sometimes feel he's more interested in seeing what he can do rather than winning.
Sometimes it's almost as if the person on the other side is a bit of an irrelevance. He goes on court and you know he's thinking "well you suppose you can beat me, let's see what you can do?" Almost an intellectual exercise. I also think, and this does sound a bit mad, that he gets easily bored and likes to deliberately challenge himself in some matches by falling behind.....yes I know...
Someone like Sod, with a much simpler game and a far fewer range of shots , can be so effective because he doesn't have to do any thinking.
To me, Andy's game, when executed to his full potential, is well nigh perfect, think Roddick/Meltzer matches. It just needs a bit of tinkering here and there. But I would like him to approach the net more often because he is a natural volleyer.

Yes deuce my darling,

The Roddick & Melzer matches were frightening!

More Please M Bear!

Hey deuce, ready for a laugh?

Look what I just bumped into on the muzz blurb in the atp site:

"... he considers his SERVE as best part of his game ..." - yeah, right ... when he gets it in! lol. so glad I wasn't drinking coffee at time.

PS. That's only for muzz fans to laugh at ;)

PPS. While several folk have pointed out how nole's serve was so hampered in Sunday's final, no one seems to have mentioned that his 1st serve % was way higher than muzz's (surprise, surprise).

alex, yes, only we can laugh :) But he's right...for 40% of his game that is ;)

Was it...?? :)

Well, Murray plays the game like chess that's the problem. He constructs the points with all the tricks in the book but the problem is when he faces a player who is on-form in high-risk tennis, he'll lose.

For example in wimby2009, he lost to Roddick because the guy was on-form so even when Murray was trying to construct a point, whosshhh, a blazing forehand and a powerful serve comes and he lost the point.

hope he can win USO2011. I'm sure he can do it...

deuce, I think you shouldn't use Murray's performance asa guage for how he should or could play, coz you need to take into account what was happening with Melzer and roddick before they played Murray. I know melzer was playing a lot of matches prior to meeting Murray, doubles and singles. Roddick, poor guy, was playing at Queens, after being off the tour due to injuries, and was ripe for the taking. A good top 20 player would have beaten Andy Roddick in that SF, considering his tough match prior to meeting Murray. Maybe, you'll see the circumstances differently, but for me, I take a player's form prior to playing a tournament, to determine how long they'll last before running out of steam. Roddick, IMO, and melzer, were both out of gas when they met Murray.

deuce,

Nice to know that it really wasn't Murray's great play at the time, isn't it?

I don't necessarily take a player's form prior to a tournament, because it's not always determinative as to how he will play. We have been surprised on many occasions when a player was looking good coming into a tournament, only to have a surprise loss.

I'm amazed at the sarcasm of some people, who love to insert themselves into a discussion, then cry foul., e.g., the poor me syndrome of 'what did I do to deserve this'?, and look at the names (deservedly so) I'm being called'. It's unbelievable that some of these people can't see how much dirtier the water is on their side of the muddied pool, before casting aspersions another's way.

NNY, you got something to say about my post to deuce, address it to me or else, keep your two-faced nose outta my discussions. Neither Roddick nor Melzer are my faves, and I'm only trying to show deuce that the two players were not in form when Murray played them, so she shouldn't go by that as a benchmark, that was all. I'm not trying to discredit Murray in the least bit. Unlike you who discredit other players and find excuses when they beat Rafa.

I suppose you have forgotten that when I intially began posting here, it was a discussion between yourself and Nadline, wherein you were both discrediting Novak's wins, e.g., his 3 MS titles, to the tune of you're both sure Novak would trade those MS titles for a GS win, and I disagreed by saying it was a bunch of BS? I hope you remember it well, coz, what I'm saying about Murray, Roddick and Melzer, pales in comparison to what you two were saying. I suppose you are an amnesiac when it comes to your nastiness, but feel privileged to twist anything around however it suits you, whenever it pertains to others? It was that interaction that has kept you riding my back and you won't let go like a dog with a good bone.

ive mightjust returned to posting here, and have seen your many fights with other posters, using your innuendoes , feigning innocence, and indulging in the 'poor me syndrome'. The worst is when you pretend to get on one poster's good side by pulling down another, as in this instance. be my guest, your reputation precedes you. Your trickery might fool some, but it doesn't cut it with me. So stop with your nonsensical and juvenile behavior, using sarcasm and innuendoes. Also, if you think your disgruntledness, brokenheartedness and disappointment at your hero's losses is being disguised when you use that anger to attack others and unleash your venom at them, you are dead wrong. I'm sure it's that transparent to many, except they don't say it. My advice to you concerning myself, just don't stick your nose in my discussions, coz I don't dignify any of your mumbo-jumbo, albeit at times, I want to shout it out to the heavens when I see your hypocrisy and bullying behavior, skillfully using your mumbo-jumbo as a smoke screen to cover it up.

You epitomize a truly contentious and miserable human being, whose sole purpose is to stir up things, try to gain favor, and pull yourself out of the situation when the going gets too hot for you to handle, by pretending to being the oh so wounded one.Do get a life, puhleez.


Tell me something NNY, do you ever let go of anything? Harboring that kind of anger is what makes people sick.

Will the moderators please step in and stop scoretracker from making these ridiculous personal attacks and threats? I have no idea what this is all about, but I don't appreciate anyone going on a tirade and telling me what I can and cannot do here.

I have opinions and have every intention of expressing myself, despite this harassment by one person who seems to know me very well and has some kind of vendetta.

Good grief, is this normal. Anyone can see I wrote that post to deuce then NNY took it upon herself to inject her usual innuendoes and sarcasm. And now, she's calling for the moderators using the usual verbiage claiming personal attacks and threats? Is this deja vu or what? I've seen this scenario played before by her, as recent as a day ago.

Yes, you have opinions and every right to express yourself, but not the way you do it, using sarcasm and innuendoes. confront me, but don't do it under the guise of talking to another poster when you're using my material to make your sarcastic points.

BTW, where did I threaten you an d used personal attacks? Did i say i will beat you to death or plaster you against a wall? You are too much with the exaggeration. Anyway, have fun doing what you do best, oh wounded, chaste and pure soul.

I won't answer your nonsense anymore.

"I won't answer your nonsense anymore." - scoretracker , 8/24/11 11:46 AM

I'll bet that you cannot keep up with this for 24 hours. ;-)

deuce, 8/23/11 1:18 PM
Your theory may well be valid! I myself have an alternative explanation - it is possible he suffers from a form of tennis ADHD which would explain the lapses in concentration at inappropriate moments. But you have to admit he's come a long way since the days when he shuffled onto court looking as though he had just been dragged out of bed backwards - and sometimes played accordingly ;-)

alex, 8/23/11 6:16 PM Hilarious comment. I'm still chuckling.

"..deuce, I think you shouldn't use Murray's performance asa guage for how he should or could play, coz you need to take into account what was happening with Melzer and roddick before they played Murray..."

We'll Scoretracker dear,
If you look at what Melzer and Nystrom actually said @ the time as well as Stefanki
@ Queens (and they know the score about their own & their players form and history than you or I ever will).
I think you'll find they were all blown AWAY by Murrays performances!
But I'm personally not basing my faith in Andy's potential on just 2 tennis matches as I watched him a lot longer than that.
They were just a couple of tantalising indicators of promise among many,
That's all.
For the record also I thought Roddick played quite well @ Queens,
he was just completely outclassed on that particular day.

"Well, Murray plays the game like chess that's the problem. He constructs the points with all the tricks in the book but the problem is when he faces a player who is on-form in high-risk tennis, he'll lose..."

Well, he won't if he's learned his lesson, a lesson he's sorely experienced 3 times in succession,
I mean your average pavlovian beagle will have comprehended by this time.
Good news!
He's more than capable of taking the initiative & I think it may have finally sunk in...

Sosueme: This was not a dig at Murray at all, but just an opinion that circumstances can make players appear invincible when the guy on the opposite side of the net is struggling to attain form.

I feel the same about first round encounters between the top and lower-ranked players., as those matches appear very lop-sided, are mismatched, and boring to watch. It's very easy for a top player to appear imperious when the guy on the other side of the net is not as talented, and cannot match the shot-making. Take Roger for example, he seems to make most of his first-round opponents look like amateurs, coz they can't keep up with him, but when he meets another on his level, the quality of his play appears to drop, but in fact, that's not the case, it's just that he's finally facing another that's somewhat more talented and one which cannot be blown off the court. The match then becomes interesting.

I feel that because Roddick was off the tour for a while when he played Queens, is the reason he was unable to cope with Murray's shot-making, as Roddick was not match fit, while Murray was very match grooved, thus making Murray appear invincible. However, if Roddick was match-fit, and then got the shellacking he got from Murray, I think I'd have to say, too good from Murray. The same applies to Melzer.

I personally judge the players' performance based on the circumstances involved. Now, if Murray and Roddick should meet again, and both are in top-notch form, should Murray repeat his Queens performance, then I think it would be only fair for me to say that Roddick got out-played, period, and cannot match Murray.

I'm a fan who hates the draws coz I feel the top four players have got it too easy through to the QFs, as opposed to the lower-ranked players who've got to do battle with tough opponents and clear the path for the supposed elite four. Why should two top 20 players meet in a first round, when the Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4 players get an opponent that's a qualifier or one ranked 300? It's the reason why the majority of times only the top 4 end up in the QFs, SFs and finals, coz the other guys are too tired from playing the tougher opponents, while the elite 4 were able to conserve their energy. If a lower-ranked player happens to make it to the QFs, and faces one of the top four, he's at a disadvantage coz he's got very little left in the tank, while the top 4 has a lot left, coz he faced such inferior competition. We saw that with Fish last week. Mardy had to beat Rafa then face Murray, who made Mardy look like an amateur.

Becker said it best, that with the draws nowadays, it's highly unlikely a lower-ranked player will be able to break-through and win a major. That's so very true, as they will have to beat tougher opponents in the early rounds, then beat at least two of the top 4. Whereas, the top 4 could get to the final, without having faced one top 10 opponent, except the one in the final.

I'm sorry, but the draws have always been a sore-point for me, and I'm certain they are fixed. It's obvious that Wimbledon manipulates the seedings, and now it appears that the USO does some fixing also. It's all about the almighty dollar that's derived from ticket sales and endorsements for the tournament.

BTW, speaking of Roddick, and the draws, on another forum some Novak fans were complaining that it was unfair for Djokovich who always seem to fall in Fed's side of the draw. At that point, I thought about Roddick that regardless of where he was ranked he always fell into Fed's side of the draw, viz., approximately close to 35+ times. As an American, I can only think that's due to the tennis world not wanting for Americans to win titles and be the leaders in tennis as we once were. Hence, they keep placing the one American, who is a bad matchup for Federer on Federer's side of the draw. That's a travesty.

Sosueme, I have nothing against Murray, and have stood up for him throughout the recent fiasco in Cincy. I was only trying to state that it probably won't be possible for him to repeat his Roddick and Melzer performances, coz those two were somewhat at a disadvantage in those matches due to their form. Unfortunately, for me, someone who has an ax to grind, usurped the opportunity to blow my comments out of proportion adding distortions and a sinister twist. this is all very tiring.

I read the following on another site, which explains why an MRI wasn't done for Novak. "Nole says that he is fully fit in a head tennis racquet conference. He said his shoulder injury was a minor concern and that all he needed was a ?couple of days rest that?s all?!

It was further stated that there wasn't an injury to his shoulder, it was just fatigue.

Considering the above, the retirement was totally unnecessary, and absolutely deprived Murray of a complete win. What do you have to say now zare?

I don't know about whether the draw is rigged or not, but the top four guys usually make it to the last four in many tournaments because they are just that good. They earned their places in the top four, it's not given to them. Before they are top four, they too have to move through the draws by beating opponents after opponents, tournament after tournament to accumulate enough points to be in the top four. Fedal, Nole and Murray all started as young upstarts but with their talents and hard work, they were able to rise to the top. All those lower ranked players or young upstarts now need to do the same if they want to be successful like the top four, if they're good enough, then they may upset the top four like what the top four guys did in the past to get to their positions now.

I think Fish played a lot of tennis this summer, so can't blame Murray for having any advantage over Fish, it's Fish choice in playing so much tennis. Whoever beats him would then end up as if having an advantage over him. Fish had already playing very well, reaching a final and a semi back to back, still there's no guarantee that he would beat Murray if Fish had not played that much tennis.

scoretracker: I was just using those two matches, and there have been many others eg against Fed last year at Montreal, where Andy showed me how he can play when all his talent coalesces at one time.
I take what your saying about Roddick and Meltzer, but I believe Meltzer said something like he'd never played against anyone playing at such a high standard before.
Also, a player at the top of his form can make very good players look ordinary. I think Andy's ROS can often neutralize another player's game and unsettle them.

As I said scoretracker ... no comment from me anymore... You don't expect ppl here to answer on every idiotic statement you make...
Enjoy in hate ...

Its totally cool Scoretracker,
I was disagreeing with you for sure (& gave you the reasons why).
But I certainly wasn't angered by what you had said,
That would be ridiculous!
People can criticize Andy here all they want, I criticise him more than anyone here! I personally only respond negatively when I think they are attacking him for alterior motives or are being stupid.
And we are all allowed to disagree aren't we?

Well Folks,
We may be at each others throats here on a fairly regular basis,
But @ least we're not beating Dads into comas @ baseball games,
or shooting each other @ 49'ers games like those mo**er f^%5rs
in California did recently...