What the hell is a little-known start?

Where is nadline?

State

I think he means state, but Idaho is by no means a little known state. It's known for the potatoes that they grow and farming.

I don't think Djoker is carrying any load at all. In fact, he must be very thrilled, and is probably licking his chops of not having to meet any of the other top 4, except for Murray in the finals, due to both of their draws being so very cushy. Also, I don't understand why he needs to get used to Miami's temperature considering he lives in Monaco, played in Dubai, and IW was hot for the latter part of the tournament. I suppose they all have to put up some negatives to make their wins a little more difficult than it really is most of the time.

Best description of "hype" surrounding Rafa and Fed:

"When Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal took to Stadium Court last week for their Indian Wells quarterfinal, it didn?t feel like a match. It felt like an event."

Their matches (as Fedal, or individualy) long ceased being just matches, they have become events.

http://tennis.si.com/2013/03/21/atp-rafael-nadal-roger-fede rer-sony-open/

"Also, I don't understand why he needs to get used to Miami's temperature considering he lives in Monaco, played in Dubai, and IW was hot for the latter part of the tournament. I suppose they all have to put up some negatives to make their wins a little more difficult than it really is most of the time."

Monaco is rather temperate compared to Florida, Dubai was played in February - not exactly at its most sweltering, and Indian Wells is probably dry heat. Miami is a tropical destination and most players sweat buckets there. This makes a huge difference; that's probably what he means.

I wouldn't like to play 2nd fiddle if I was #1 in the world.

In fact, in this case, the #1 is playing 3rd fiddle.

IW = hot but dry. Miami = hot but humid. Hot and humid is a terrible combo.
MC is nowhere near the desert heat or Miami weather. Belgrade is hotter than MC during the summer (actually, every year one of the hottest European capitals).

PS: I don't think Novak's afraid of anyone on tour.

From ritb's link

"The Nos. 5-8 ? or ?The Little Four,? as ESPN.com?s Kamakshi Tandon once dubbed them ? undoubtedly have the talent. David Ferrer, Tomas Berdych, Juan Martin del Potro and Jo-Wilfried Tsonga have shown through consistency (Ferrer), bracket-busting wins (Berdych, Tsonga) and breakthrough runs (Del Potro) that they have the tools to compete for the biggest titles. And yet, they really haven?t. Between them they have just three ATP Masters 1000 titles, all won at the Paris Indoors at the end of the season that typically sees a depleted field and a lightning-quick surface. Del Potro is the lone major winner ? the U.S. Open in 2009 ? but he has yet to win a Masters title and made only two Masters finals.

There are matchup and consistency issues that can help explain each of ?The Little Four?s? deficiencies, but it comes down to pure belief. Even when Nadal was struggling to solve the Federer puzzle on grass and hard courts, you never got the sense he didn?t believe he could find the answers. The same applies to Djokovic and Murray, two players who had their struggles and doubts but whose self-belief was hard to question.

The same can?t be said for the 5-8s. How many times have we seen them fight valiantly against Big Four members only to lose the first set and disappear for the rest of the match as though their not-quite-good-enough fate has already been determined? It?s a frustrating trend, and it?s the reason why Berdych?s recent wins over Federer or Del Potro?s back-to-back victories from a set down against Murray and Djokovic last week in Indian Wells are so invigorating. Maybe, just maybe, they?re starting to believe."


Tennis writers are always reminding us of Rafa's age implying that he will soon be out of the scene, but all of the 'Little 4' who are purportedly chasing the big 4 are older than Rafa, except for Delpo. So they won't be around after Rafa has retired, either. Djokovic and Murray are only a year younger than Rafa so they should all be hanging up their racquets around the same time.

I know, I know, someone is going to remind me that Rafa's knees are going to retire him sooner than the others, but let's wait and see.

@nadline, no I won't but, and I do hope this is correct, haven't checked info too closely:
turned pro: Fed 1998, Rafa 2001, Nole 2003, Andy 2005.
This must have some relevance when we're talking tennis "life."
Was surprised Rogie so late, Raf and Nole so early.

Why should the age you start have any relevance to your tennis life? Barring a career halting injury, there is nothing to say that you can only play for a required number of years then you have to stop.

Roger and Murray started late because they were, obviously, not ready to turn pro sooner.

What is truly surprising is Rafa and Andy were able to challenge the maestro while still teenagers and both have a winning H2H. Nole was to turn twenty before he clocked up his first win against Roger and has still to close the H2H gap.

Between them they managed to blight the careers of many of their seniors and, as has been discussed many times, have created a virtually inpenetrable barrier for today's promising younger players to reach the top ten.

So deuce, Murray is 18 months older than Delpo but they both turned pro in 2005, what does that mean exactly, in your books?

^^The only `age` that truly matters in tennis nadline is tennis age.
You are simply in denial about this fact.
Isner with just 285 matches on the tour is considerably `younger` than Andy Murray with his 517. Despite being 2 years older. Other facts should be brought into consideration such as style of play and propensity to injury to get a true picture of how `old` a tennis player is.
There are also stats to support the average lifespan of a player afterwinning their first slam.
Calender age, at least till the player hits 30, is of less relevance.
Its all about the wear & tear on the body obviously before then.
I would say given the individuality of each players health it is not something that can be predicted down to the month.
And so del Potro can be seen as a fair bit younger than Andy with 381 matches. Certainly more than the 16months that separate them in age.

"Their matches (as Fedal, or individualy) long ceased being just matches, they have become events..."

Well RITB I rest my case about the `hype` machine if the IW quarterfinal is anything to go by. As their match in this instance was dire in all ways, as well as shockingly predictable to boot.
Some `event`.

If you took off the Fedal "boredom" glasses, @Twingey dearest, you would not fall inot the trap of describing the match, as opposed to the event. The match was dire and predictable. The event, not so much.

Description of event:

1. A thing that happens, especially one of importance;
2. A planned public or social occasion

When you consider:
a. this was a thing which happened where 2 Champions with 28 GS between them were on court at the same time; and
b. people planned their diaries around this thing when it's occurrance became evident

then, yes, this was an event which produced a damp-squib of a match.

The `event` was a `non event` and could only be seen as anything else by a bunch of lame sheeple.
I like my events to live up to the hype personally, not just one more stale gasp of hope from the fedal marketeers with so much invested in this rivalry, of which there are legions ofcourse.
Suggesting that the quality of the match would not affect the `specialness` of the event is a nonsense.
When you also suggest that it is not hype but `hype` then you are the one falling into a trap. The trap of nostalgia.
And its only going to get worse....`dearest`.

There will always be hype around Fedal, and nostalgia is part of the reason, one of which is the expectation of some good tennis breaking out.

Rafa will almost always beat Roger, except on indoor hard court, doesn't affect the hype surrounding the event, it will always be there.

It's not just about the tennis, it's also about the personalities involved and boy, are they huge, even lame sheeple can see that.

I feel that sports person career majorly depend on passion towards the game but not on the number of matches they played or wear & tear (not major injuries).

Few examples Martina Navratilova, Sachin Tendulkar (cricket)

^^Fine, but it is not `hype` anymore, its the real thing as this so called rivalry ceased to be meaningful years ago.
Not that it makes any real difference to the powers that be.
But that is just my opinion of course.

Also i am not convinced that this rivalry holds the same magic any more even with `Les Gens Ordinaires`.
You can fool some of the people some of the time etc.
But fedal have their huge fansbases to rely on at least.
Who will hopefully depart when their idols do.
Oh & Verkianz, yes your examples really support your theory.
No they really do!

^^Agree, Fedal is not a rivalry anymore. I know this but I still look forward to it..............the way I look forward to a circus act. I know the outcome, but also enjoy the glitz.

For me, the rivalry of the moment is Rafa-Nole, there is "unfinished business" there, even if Rafa appeared to have gained the upper hand with the 2012 clay roll. Will also be interesting to see how and if Muzza inserts himself in it........not to mention Delpo, who I think legitimately belongs in the fray.

This article headline should read:

Djokovic tries and fails miserably to fill charisma gap in Maimi.

Lowest ticket sales and poor atmosphere so far in Miami combine to make this a damp squib of a tournament.

I do feel the Fedal slam matches do live up to the 'hype', even though they may not go to five sets. Cases in point: their recent 2012 AO SF match and 2011 FO final. Both matches were of above average quality and competitive enough to live up to the 'hype'. They're definitely as exciting if not more exciting (depending on whether you're a Fedal fan or not), than Nole/Murray slam matches like the 2012 USO final and 2013 AO final, also Fed/Murray 2012 Wimbledon final and Fed/Nole Wimbledon SF.

^^@lucky, agree with your reading of the "charisma-o-meter" of the other match-ups compared to Fedal.

There are two elements to a match. The players and the occasion. If it is Fedal in an exhibition match or even QF of Indian Wells (!!!), it maybe less exciting than Nole-Muzz in a GS final. But a Fedal GS final scores over any other GS final. Can any match in recent memory compare with the finals of Wimbledon 2008 or AO 2009 when there was a sense of something earthshaking going on?
None of the other match ups, Rafa-Nole, Rafa-Andy, Nole-Andy, Fed-Nole, Fed-Andy come anywhere close to Fedal.

^^Yes but you guys are all FEDAL FANS.
That's why you think this way obviously.
Fair enough however but I don't see it as do many other non fedal fans of tennis.
Agree with Wimbledon 2008 though, but that was now nearly 5 years ago!
Novak against Andy in a GS has not got together as a serious contender of very exciting matches...yet.
Its up to Andy to rise to the occasion more than Novak to take this on to the next level. Novaks already ready and able.
Although i do feel the shanghai tournament last year gave us a glimpse of what may be..

Twinge why don't you see it the same way? Can you mention a single match between other match-ups which comes close to the Fedal GS finals?
Actually I get goose pimples when I think of Miami 2004 although I did not see it. The very thought of those two meeting not knowing what a historic meeting it was is something indescribable. Two mighty Gods, one still a child but fearless, the other in his prime and considered invincible.

And of course, the storylines for the next Fedal are already writ large:

Will Rafa show up in Madrid?

Which quarter will he fall in since he will most likely be ranked #5? If Tiriac has any influence (as he sought to convince us with that blue clay fiasco) he will make sure Rafa is in Fed's quarter.

Will Fed's back be healed by then?

Will Rafa's knees hold?

Will Fed add another accolade to his illustrious career, that of being the first man to be beaten 20 times by Rafa?

Will Uncle Toni even attend another Fedal?

We want Fedal!
We want Fedal!
We want Fedal!

People love stories. A good story can even keep death at bay as Sheherzade knew.
The great thing about Fedal was not just the shotmaking or the occasion, it was the evolving fascinating story of an epic battle between two Gods.
I don't think the other match-ups have such an interesting story.

Right on cue, Tignor answers calls for those in need of a Fedal fix:

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/03/catching-tape-roger-and -rafa-miami/46863/#.UUx5dFdRCDd

"For those of you who need a Fedal fix after their last match, in Indian Wells, turned out to be a dud, here are highlights of each of those ancient contests from Key Biscayne."

Sorry ladies, not sold on your pitch.
Don't care about Federer's back and in fact might like to see it go off into the sunset.
Nadal versus Novak will be interesting, for a time at least.
But lets face it, if rafa was on the losing end of their H2H you probably wouldn't be so rosy about it all now would you?
(RITB is a dead giveaway here unless she is being humorous) But each to their own!

Borg/Mac/Connors just as thrilling and made more so cos two of 'em were such bad boys.
No smooth PR men for them....;)

Twinge,
You and deuce don't exist according to holdserve and nadline because they say there are only Nadal fans and Nadal haters. There are no Murray fans. I guess that makes you Nadal haters then. Sorry. ;-)

It's only crap18 and its fellow tossers who are Nadal haters.

Sky seems to have abandoned the broadcasting of Miami...

@chris 18
Sorry, don't waste my hatred on tennis players, save it for mass murderers.

Miami will be on sky4HD from Saturday.

Twinge is in denial which I can understand as he claims not to watch Nadal so he is missing out on the most exciting player ever.

To you Nadline, to you. Some people are allowed to like players other then Nadal...

At least chr19 admits that he is a Rafa hater.

...what?
I don't hate anyone, I just think that not everybody believes Nadal is the most exciting tennis player ever. Stop being such an 'everyone other then nadal' hater;).

Same here. I see nothing exciting about Rafa, surely not anything to give him the title of "most exciting" or "most charismatic" ever. Like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder.

It doesn't matter whether anyone here, chr19 or danica or deuce consider Rafa exciting or not. The point is: millions do. However what we are debating here are the excitement of the match-ups.
As good film makers have discovered, having great actors is not enough, you need a great story to get box office success.
Nole and Muzz are great players in the league of Rafa and Rog but the match ups with them aren't backed by any great story. Nothing anywhere close to the epic battle of the young God seeking to overthrow the Invincible.
If Rafa hadn't overthrown Rog, there would have been no story. We love Rafa because he is the hero of the story, the story in which he does overthrow the God.

Got to agree that millions find Rafa exciting to watch as a tennis player. I find him the most exciting to watch among all the players including the top four. Gulbis, when his game is on, is also another exciting player to watch, still can't compare with Rafa though.

I was responding to Nadline's constant talk of Rafa being this and that. I was not addressing the match ups.
There are a lot of things that are involved in making someone "loved". Marketing and PR can do wonders.

While marketing and PR are involved in making a player "loved", they aren't the only factors. Otherwise both Nole and Muzz who have millions would have been just as loved.
The fact is: they aren't.
In case of Sampras, my Dad tells me, he wasn't very popular till he cried after a match because his coach was dying. That endeared him to the fans and he became more "loved".
Some story, some incident can make a difference and we have to wait till the end of their careers to see what success they get in winning fans' hearts.
But right now, Rafa and Rog are way ahead in charisma.

Not so much of marketing and PR, but rather the player himself. The first time I saw Rafa played, I got hooked. It's more his style, the way he played, the way he showed no fear against anyone, the way he played with enthusiasm and so much joy even when just winning a point! He was just a young boy then, still a teenager. Of course as he grows up, his charisma, his charm, his humility all shine through when he's off court. It's no wonder his practice sessions are always crowded with fans wanting to get a glimpse of him in close range.

Tennis Channel scrambled to secure broadcast rights to show Rafael Nadal play a second round match in a 250 Tournament in the back of beyond in Chile, all the world's broadcasters and news agencies descended on this non descript locale.

Marketing and PR can make a player, but sometimes marketing and PR FOLLOW an already charismatic player. The latter is Rafa.

No one needs to explain Rafael Nadal's charisma, marketing and PR did not endow Rafa with charisma, he was born with it.............

As a matter of fact I have found Rafa's tennis to be "thrilling" the last time was the IW final and I posted such on match thread.
However, my point is that the Fedal rivalry is not the be all and end all of tennis rivalries. Nor should it be because, if it were, tennis would die when these two retire.
I agree with danica too, marketing and money making has a lot to do with it. It's a mass media with a global economy now and the rewards are huge. It just wasn't there in the Mac/Connors/Borg era and barely in Sampras'. Isn't Borg supposed to be short of money? Doubt is any of the top 10 will end up doshless.

http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/id/9074703/debating-rog%20er-federer -rafael-nadal-greatness

".............who disappeared for 232 days after being upset by Lukas Rosol early at Wimbledon and left a crater-sized hole in the charisma department of the men's game during his absence. "

Crater-sized hole in the charisma department.

Howard Bryant could be articulating the belief of may, or he could be just another Rafa fan-boy using his espn.go.com soapbox to wax lyrical about his hero.....

@rafaisthebest, 3/23/13 9:50 AM

The world now knows what Rafa fans have always known, that Rafael Nadal is tennis. He is the box office of tennis. He brings in TV rights, sponsors, media interest and ticket sales.

It took Rafa's 7 month's absence for the blind to see the light.


#Charisma
#GOTE

The facts are the facts. For a player 5 years younger to come on the scene and eclipse the attention from someone so revered as Federer speaks volumes for Rafa's appeal. It doesn't matter what the odd refusenik thinks, they simply don't want to face the facts. To be at odds with millions of tennis fans just shows a lack of judgement.

CNN on Rafa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5Nr1VnqFcE&feature=youtube_gd ata_player

Howard Bryant:

"Rafael Nadal..... left a crater-sized hole in the charisma department of the men's game during his absence.

Great players live in sports every day and they are the game's rightful lifeblood, but the true superstars, the showstoppers who turn statistics into art, are about as rare as a comet."
"

Well Rafa is certainly not the be all and end all of tennis, so anyone sayng that is not right, tennis existed before Rafa and will after Rafa too however the truth also is that Rafa is way way more popular than Nole and Muzz and he and Fed are tied.

Nole and Muzz both dont command or generate fan following or charisma or money anywhere close to what Rafa does. You might be a fan of any player, however you cant dispute the truth.

Fedal matches have been inconsistent but the sheer quality 5-6 of their past matches produced has given it an exalted stats that people are hyping it up expecting the same again , sadly something that may never happen again.

sanju: may be, may be not: it would be foolish to ever count Roger out of the equation!

But the years straddling the top of the game do appear to be taking their toll and it can only be a matter of time before he decides to call it a day - particularly if he were to start losing to players other than the current top 10.

Whatever happens next I believe the past eight years will go down in history as one of the Greatest eras in tennis.

I don't think that may never happen again. I'm looking forward to Fedal meeting at Wimbledon and USO this year. Fedal meetings at slams do live up to the hype almost always, except maybe Wimbledon 2006 and FO 2008. I'm hoping for Fedal to meet at least once at the USO, so Nole please do not disturb.

Federer is not going to retire until Rafa does. He has to guard his records against Rafa, he is too scared that should he retire, Rafa would soon overtake his 17 slam title record which he is hanging to for dear life.

@nadline
If Rafa's knees hold up he could play for another 5 years. Can u really see Rogie playing till he's 36?
I'm with ed on this one, if he stops making slam semis he will retire. Hope he does too, I don't want to see him beaten regularly by guys he would've taken to the cleaners in his younger days. Also agree past 8 years ONE OF greatest eras of all time.
@sanju
No, Andy could never have the global appeal of Fedal, but nor would he want it. Essentially he is a shy, private person. Completely different from Fed and Nole who obviously bask in the limelight, with Rafa half way probably.
If only Tsonga could win a couple of slams, I think he has the charisma to be a global sensation....."if only" being the operative words of course. Don't think he will now.

I suppose it's safe to post on a Djokovic thread without the usual proprietary stranglehold from the majority here.

As a Fed fan, I sincerely hope there won't be another Fedal match for as long as Fed keeps playing on the ATP tour. The comments since nadal beat Fed have turned to downright hateful from some Nadal fans. All it took was one additional win from nadal over Fed and all hell has broken loose since.

IMO, Fed and nadal are two of the most popular sports figures world-wide, but again, IMO, Fed has a greater fan following, and the stats prove that to be so. I know some people talk about twitter popularity, but please remember Fed does not do twitter, so that makes the comparisons moot.

I don't see the pertinence of the last 8 years as going down as one of the best eras in history. how did that come about? Why 8 years, considering Fed was blazing a trail from 2004-2007, and he was mostly untouchable, except in the Fedal clay finals, so why is that selectively excluded?

@danica: "Same here. I see nothing exciting about Rafa, surely not anything to give him the title of "most exciting" or "most charismatic" ever. Like beauty, lies in the eye of the beholder. danica, 3/23/13 2:30 AM

DITTO. However, we can't blame his fans for trying. beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder, and it's our democratic right to speak our thoughts.

@nadline, as much as you want it to be so, and i don't want to burst your bubble, but remember this, no one is greater than the sport, and that means, Nadal is NOT tennis. He's a tennis player who's amassed 11 GS tiles and 23 MS titles, but believe me, the sport has been there before he came into existence, and will be here long after he ceases to be.

nadline, 3/23/13 12:52 PM , ha ha, your psychic powers are super phenomenal. Not only do you think you can see nadal's thoughts and know his every action, but now your psychic powers have escalated and are able to read Fed's thoughts and predict his actions. It must be awesome to have such heightened senses. I don't think Fed has to worry about Nadal, but OTOH, it's Nadal who has to worry about djokovic and Murray eclipsing his GS tally. How does that grab you?

One of the reasons Fedal has gotten more hype over the years is due to their contrasting styles of play. Djokovic and Murray mirror each other in many aspects of their match play, but with Fedal, their contrasting shot selection and style of play, is what has grabbed the attention of the majority of tennis fans. Additionally, credit has to go to Fed who has had the single most fan following, and due to that, ticket sales for their matches are higher. Whenever Fed plays, regardless of his opponent, TV viewership and ticket sales are higher, with nadal running a close. second.Believe it or not, Li na has a huge fan following in Asia, and she's one of the highest paid women athletes of the world.

@scoretracker 1:15 PM
"I don't see the pertinence of the last 8 years as going down as one of the best eras in history. how did that come about? Why 8 years, considering Fed was blazing a trail from 2004-2007, and he was mostly untouchable, except in the Fedal clay finals, so why is that selectively excluded?"


Those years that Fed dominated pre Nadal are known as the 'Weak Era' that's why they don't count.

Why are you so scared of Fedal matches, are you assuming that Roger has no hope of ever beating a healthy Rafa again. For years Fedfans held on to the belief that Federer would close the gap, but he doesn't seem able to and now thy have given up all hopes of the gap ever closing.

No, I don't think Rafa is looking over his shoulders at Nole and Muzz at all.

It's not me who goes on and on about what Rafa means to tennis, I did not write this thread and Howard Bryant and other are expressing what they think of thei own free will, because they are not in denial like some of you whose lack of judgement would not get you a job in the sponsorship department of large corporations because you can't seem to see where the market is.

#The power of surprise

@nadline, if you say so. unfortunately for you, the pundits, tennis analysts and media, have all agreed that he was the only man who dominated in such fashion with 90-3 win/loss records, and 2004-2007, may never be repeated by any male tennis player. Djoker had one year close to Fed's phenomenal 4 year domination, and has not been able to do a repeat. It shows how difficult it is to do what Fed has done.

Please don't make me laugh about me being scared. I suppose you can say I'm scared, but not in the way you are thinking . I'm scared to think of the nastiness that will ensue on this site and other nadal fan dominated sites. That's all, and you can choose to believe me or say different, but it's unimportant to me, coz that's how I feel deep down.

FYI, their H2h is unimportant to me. What's of importance is that Fed has won 17GS titles, and nadal has won 11. nadal can keep beating Fed at Ms tournaments how much he wants, and it wouldn't alter that fact, i.e., 17-11.

They will cling to that belief/hope of closing the gap nadline because these fedfans are blinds being maxi the ocult leader (I know she is very much around using another nick). From first encounter up to the present, Roger never come ahead of the "sacred" H2H and yet they still hoping Roger could close the gap now that Roger is 31 years old?

Which will be 17-12 (and closing) after the French Open.................I know, because savvy bookies are already paying out on the French Open winner.....

" ...because they are not in denial like some of you whose lack of judgement would not get you a job in the sponsorship department of large corporations because you can't seem to see where the market is. #The power of surprise,
nadline, 3/23/13 1:45 PM

What a pity you didn't write the above before I answered you. It underlines why I feel so strongly about the nastiness that emanates from some of you on this site. One HC win in 30 months over Fed has got some of you crawling out of the mire of no return. During the drought it seemed as though some of you had learned a lesson in huimility, but that was just wishful thinking. now it's full steam ahead on the train of no return. what a waste of my time to think this would have been a decent discussion. Oh well.An exercise in futility.

FYI, I'm an engineer, working in a multi-billion dollar (now the juveniles can also make fun of this) corporation and I couldn't care less about the sponsorship department. You know what I'd like to see, companies giving money to organizations to fight hunger and poverty, abused women and children, and the homeless, not giving to these spoilt, rich athletes, who don't need the dollars. That's the information that would grab my attention, not how many millions an athleth is given for wearing some clothes, so that little kids' parents have to shell out money some of them don't have, to buy their kids some brand-name athletic apparel. Am i missing something here, but I fail to see how the sponsorship department is connected to my comments on not wanting to see any more Fedal matches. Lesson learned.

Have to agree with scoretracker here - it's the contrast in styles that has made the Fedal rivalry so interesting. Much like Johnny Mac and Borg.

I don't think anyone is denying that Rafa is popular or has millions of fans, I was just saying I don't personally find him exciting, but I get that others do. In terms of playets popularity, I think Djokovic isn't that far behind and could catch up, I mean he is a national hero in Serbia, if any player will be missed or has importance in tennis to a group of people it's Djokovic and how he's seen by Serbians!

rbennett you are right. A players popularity in their own country (a country that barely has any sporting success to cheer about by the way), definitely means that, Djokovic "could catch up" to rafa in terms of worldwide popularity!...... NOT

Djokovic will never catch up to either fed or rafa's fandom. Its deluded to think that he will. The serb is too tacky and polarising to become that popular.

Djokovic and Murray have about the same level of worldwide support. Both players never experience the kid of insane fan attention that fed or rafa get when they walk in to a tournament grounds or are practicing.

There are two sides to every argument and anti-Rafans are always on the wrong side.

willmw101 - Let's agree to disagree! I don't think I'm being deluded though, just saying that Djokovic is very popular in his country (true they have little sporting success, that's likely why) and that he may end up being as popular as Federer or Nadal.
Nadline - What did I say that's wrong? I'm not 'anti-rafa' by the way, I'm sure that that kind of narrative must be more entertaining though!

rbennett, fair enough. However I still see no evidence that djokovic would get near fed or nadal by the end of his career in terms of worldwide fan support.

Willmw101 - Yeah I looked into his facebook and twitter following, miles behind on facebook, not quite as bad on twitter, but Murray is even less popular. If you said Murray wouldn't catch up I'd agree, but like somebody said I don't think he wants to. Anyway we'll have to see, but I certainly think Djokovic has the potential!

Facebook and Twitter aren't particularly indicative of worldwide fan followings though. There is an intangible draw to Fed and Nadal than Djokovic will never have.

No, Andy could never have the global appeal of Fedal, but nor would he want it. Essentially he is a shy, private person. Completely different from Fed and Nole who obviously bask in the limelight, with Rafa half way probably.

deuce, 3/23/13 1:14 PM


Rafa does not seek popularity, in fact he will be the first to tell you that he attaches no importance to his popularity at all.

Fed became hugely popular not because of his personal charisma but because he came along during the weak era. As I said earlier, in order for athletes to catch the public imagination, they have to be great and they must play a leading role in an evolving story keeping the public looking for the next installment.
Before Fed, there was no one who was consistent, who could be counted upon to go deep in the tournaments and win titles, no one for whom fans could consistently cheer. Tennis was reeling for lack of a hero. Along came Fed. ATP and sponsors picked up on him. That head start, that Fed got by coming along when there were no superstars, still has him commanding a large chunk of sponsorship which means huge marketing all over the world.
The Fed story might have become boring but along came Rafa to lend passion and excitement and the Fedal story came into being.
Fed is incredibly lucky. First he benefited by coming in a weak era both in terms of titles and sponsorships and then he benefited by being part of an exciting rivalry.
Rafa did not need Fed though Fedal helped. If Fed hadn't come before him, Rafa would have displaced the weak stars and risen to prominence in 2004-2005 both on his immense talent and personal charisma. And tennis wouldn't have been boring because Rafa has rivals in his peer group.
And of course the Rafa story ( without Fed) would never have been boring being the story of a fearless young man who fought with passion on the tennis courts and also fought his injuries playing through immense pain. His injury absences would have given opportunities for others to shine and his comebacks would have been stirring.

@nadline
Rafa doesn't shun the lime light though.

In short, Rafa has huge personal charisma and would have commanded a huge following no matter when he came. Fed's charisma is fortuitous and had he come along with Nole and Muzz, I don't know who amongst these three ( Fed, Nole and Muzz) would have had most popularity, maybe Nole. Maybe even Muzz whose career has been stifled by a larger than life Fed and rigged draws.

If Rafa doesn't shun the limelight, nor does Muzz.. Does Muzz refuse to give interviiews, run in sports cars from paparazzi, hide his face under a big hat, duck into dark alleys when he sees a fan approaching etc?

nadline, although I just threw out the idea that there are only Rafans and anti-Rafans, I am now finding more and more evidence to back up that hypothesis. Even gentle deuce is anti-Rafa.

nadline, we are co-sponsors of this hypothesis.

Deuce, does Murray shun the limelight?

deuce, next ting you'll be telling me that Rafa arranged this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXXxXL3PzTY

Rafa does not seek the limelight, the limelight follows him! Look at these two people, Frank Giampaolo and Jon Levey (only God knows who they are), they decide to write a book about tennis and who do they put on the cover...............Rafa! I hope (a) they got Rafa's permission and (b) Rafa's getting some nice royalties for use of his image.

http://www.tennis.com/your-game/2013/03/reducing-errors/4687 3/#.UU3SA1dRCDc

The point is, they knew what to do to get their books moving off the shelves!

......Btw, judging by the article, the book has absolutely nothing to do with Rafa in particular!

@holdserve
Ah well, I'm sure some Fed fans think I'm "anti Fed" so I guess that evens things up
*puts face in hands and sighs.*

I don't see the pertinence of the last 8 years as going down as one of the best eras in history. how did that come about? Why 8 years, considering Fed was blazing a trail from 2004-2007, and he was mostly untouchable, except in the Fedal clay finals, so why is that selectively excluded? scoretracker, 3/23/13 1:15 PM

holdserve, 3/23/13 4:02 PM
Thanks for spelling out to S/T why the Golden Era we are now in dates from 2005 and not 2004 when Federer was sweeping all the competition out of the way.

But how in the name of heaven can you accuse Deuce of being anti-Rafa? She provides an elegant red and gold sofa in her sitting room purely for the benefit of Rafans :-)

Here is Rafa seeing attention again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bQdwdxU8Hw

I think deuce should look after her partners in the anti-Rafa camp because Fedfans will make more use of the sofa.

scoretracker, 3/23/13 1:15 PM
---I know some people talk about twitter popularity, but please remember Fed does not do twitter---

As for online fanbase, in the middle of last June Rafa had more fans on Facebook than Fed did. During Rafa's 7 months absence from the ATP Tour, Fed's fanbase grew faster than that of Rafa and Rafa's popularity fell far behind. If Rafa can play without taking long vacations, he may again surpass Fed in Facebook's rankings.

Fed and Rafa will most likely retire at similar times, within the next 3 or 4 years.

But continue throwing around the weak-era card people, because at the end of the day, Fed will have left the court with at least 17 GS. And he'll have done it knowing that he gave it his best each and every time...

I can't fathom what it must be like for Rafa fans knowing his glorious career was hampered by injuries. Of course he still has a few years left, but still, there will be questions of Rafa's career when he hangs it up... What if he was never injured? What if his knees were better? What if he adjusted his style?

As a Fed fan, even I see that a healthy Rafa could come close or even surpass Fed's GS haul.

If Rafa is on the Tour within the next 3 or 4 years, he will surpass Fed's Slam haul, you heard it here first.

Deuce I don't think you're anti Rafa or anti Fed :). You're allowed to like other players haha. Who is your fave player?

I'll take Rafa's quality over Fed's quantity.

#RafaIsTheBest
#VamosBLAKE

aegis, do you realize that in 4 years' time both Andy and Nole will be 30 years old. People talk as if they are spring chickens. Rafa is only one year older than them.


#GOTE

@nadline, they can see the Rafa express hurtling relentlessly towards GOAT-dom...

#Clutchingatstraws

ritb, Rafa is currently the GreatstOfThisEra; no ifs no buts. He has a 72% success against the top 10 and the only one with a positive h2h against all the top 4.

@ rafaisthebest

Wishful thinking, but it won't happen. Not with Novak playing the tennis of his life, and Andy finally coming around. Rafa has a chance, as does every other player, but it is hard to deny what Andy and Novak are doing right now, and unless they are injured, can't see them letting up.

It's only a matter of time before those 2 are holding onto No.1/2 ranking.

^^and Rafa 3.0 was revealed at IW, with all that portends......enough to make grown men weep.

Now they are all pinning their hopes on Novak to do a 2011.........good luck with that.

Are you saying Novak cannot repeat his success of 2011? He did it once, what's to stop him from doing it agian?

@aegis, not denying Novak's and Andy's quality, they are serious contenders but so is Rafa. People thought the 7-month sabbatical would seriously dent Rafa's chances, but they did not take into account Team Nadal's master stroke as Cheryl pointed out on her blog: the clever scheduling.

Now he charges onto his favourite surface brimming with confidence, even you must admit Rafa is looking good right now.

@aegis, correct me if I am wrong but 2011 Novak had already won 1 GS and 2 MS 1000 coming out of Miami, right? Well, he is already behind schedule because the best he can come out with post Miami is 1GS and 1 MS 1000, no?

Of course, he can go on a tear and win EVERYTHING starting in Monte Carlo...........

I will take that scenario with a pitch of salt, if you do not mind, thank you.

Of course Rafa is a contender heading into the clay season, as he always is.

But we have not even seen Andy/Novak prime. I'm not even fans of those two, but it's hard to deny that they're finally arrived, and are pushing the pace much more than Rafa & Fed (at this stage). We will watch if Novak can join Rafa & Fed by completing his cabinet by winning RG.

Btw, just saw the new Muzza RADO watch commercial, pretty cool.............

Can Novak and/or Muzza win RG? Absolutely.

Will they, this year? Very, very debatable, going by what Rafa has shown us thus far.

But that is just my opinion.

On topic of Rafa passing Fed's 17, he would have to win at least 6 more in the next 3 or 4 years.

Please tell me which, aside from RG, he will win with Novak and Andy...? That is a serious question btw. I can't see Rafa losing at RG until he pretty much retires.

Well if IW is any indication, I think Rafa can hold his own and will continue to amass multiple slams even in this so-called Nole-Muzz era.

Last time I checked, Rafa was No. 2 in the Race to London and he didn't even need AO points to get there!

#VamosGOAT

Obviously 2013 RG Rafa goes in the favourite, with Novak and Fed second. Andy's clay game isn't as strong as those other 3 players. But after that, Andy/Fed should make Wimby, and Andy/Novak should if all goes well, repeat at USO, unless Rafa's form peaks at a substantial rate.

I'll go with four FO, one Wimby, and one AO just for the tie. That's certainly not unimaginable for a player of Rafa's stature who has continuously exceeded everyone's expectations. He can certainly exceed even what I've listed.

#VamosRAFA

@aegis, here is my Rafa Slams prediction, and I am serious:

RG 2013
Wimby 2013
USO 2013

RG 2014

Oz 2015
RG 2015

Provided Uncle T manages Rafa's schedule tightly, I am not ruling out a Rafa Slam with Rafa taking Oz 2014.

You see, Rafa's Slam count going forward does not depend on Novak or Andy, it depends on his knees.........

aegis, you don't appear to know much about who is who in tennis. Rafa has made more Wimbledon finals than Nole and Andy put together and you have the audacity to doubt that Rafa is capable of winning Wimbledon with those 2 around. It's not worth even discussing the matter with you.


#GOTE

Conspirator, 3/23/13 6:56 PM,

This is my favorite post on this topic thread! Short and to the point! Love it! :)

Djokovic presser at IW:

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=87549

Q. Obviously you faced Jo Willy's serve today which is pretty tough. If you have to say three or four toughest strokes that you face out there on the circuit, what are the really toughest strokes that you have to handle?
NOVAK DJOKOVIC: Well, Nadal's forehand would be probably right up there; Isner's serve.

Hey guys, I am a little superstitious and all this talk of Rafa sweeping the clay season, winning RG etc is making me nervous.
So let us wait till Monte Carlo before making any predictions.
If Rafa had a normal foot he would probably have won 20 slams by now. He lost 2009 when he was in his prime. Although he played in 2011-first half 2012, I am convinced he was not fit and therefore lost to Nole in three slam finals. Nole also benefited by being in Fed's half at USO thereby getting the better schedule.

Based on hate of course Nadal haters could predict Nadal will end his career within 3 years bla bla bla so he could surpass Fed slams.. But based on Nadal perfomance... Absolutely he can reach at least 17..

Holdserve: I share your trepidation. It is precipitous to assume Rafa will repeat a clean clay court sweep this year. One can hope but it is not a foregone conclusion. It would'nt come as a total surprise if his doctors advise him to skip one (or even two) in order to be in peak form for RG.

But guys he's played so well, on clay and hard, why on earth would you have "trepidation?"
Or is that chronic condition "Andyitis" catching?.....;)

I read an interview with Uncle Toni on vb, in which he described Rafa's task of defending his wins at MC, Barcelona, Rome and RG as "complicated". That was an interesting word. I think he means that it will be challenging. I feel the same way.

While I am happy to see Rafa having so much success in his initial comeback, I am aware that there's a lot more tennis to be played. I am not ready to make any predictions of a clean sweep for the clay season. I am just hoping that Rafa does what is necessary during these next few weeks to be in the best shape possible and ready to do his best.

Rafa will have four weeks rest instead of the normal one week break between Miami and MC in the past, so I'm positive Rafa will do well at all the clay events he enters. I think he'll do we'll too at Wimbledon, I'm looking forward to a Rafa/Nole and then Rafa/Fed meeting there, time for Rafa to re-establish himself on grass after last year's odd loss. As long as Rafa gets into groove ASAP on grass, he should be OK to survive the first week and becomes comfortable in the second week.

Conspirator - If Rafa's knee and foot hold up well, then 4 more FOs are not impossible IMO. I also think that he's good for a few more Wimbledon, after all, Fed is getting old so more chances for the rest, especially Rafa and Murray, to win Wimbledon. To me, I think AO is tougher for Rafa than the USO, as Nole is guarding his AO like a hawk, not easy for anyone else to get it. The surface there suits Nole's game to the T, and I foresee him winning a few more there to be the most decorated title holder there at the AO. He may end up with six or even seven AO titles! I think Rafa can win at the USO again, after all he did win one and reached the final there the following year. He needs his big serve back; in fact I do hope Rafa pick up that big serve again, at least gradually starting from the end of the clay season, to get it up for the grass season; rest his shoulder after that ( that's about four weeks rest after Wimbledon till Canada Masters) and slowly pick up the pace through the two Masters (Canada/Cincy) and getting it right up there during USO.

He can then rest his shoulder again after the USO. I'm hoping he'll skip Beijing or Tokyo, just plays in Shanghai, which will be three weeks after USO. Thereafter, another two weeks and Paris/London to follow. He can't skip anymore Masters this year after skipping Miami, so I'm hoping he skips a 509 event at either Tokyo or Beijing and gets zero pointer for that.

Er...500 event, not 509!

Come next year, Rafa can skip two Masters. I wish for him to play Miami and tries to win it at least once, and then he can forget about going there, or at least alternate it with Cincy. Also alternate between Shanghai and Paris, keeps skipping Tokyo or Beijing, that way he'll only play seven HC events, eight including the WTF.

As long as Rafa builds in all those rest periods before each block of HC events, I think he'll manage his knee and foot issues well enough for him to compete for a few more good years.

Deuce: Playing one 500, three Masters, and a Slam in a matter of weeks is a tall order for all the players who go deep in all the tournaments. For Rafa it will be asking a lot of his knee so soon after his rehabilitation.

#WeWillSee
#Eyeore

^ Sounds like a bad case of Andyitis to me. Alas, there is no cure...;)
#Pollyanna

Easy Easy people, lets not get too ahead of ourselves in predicting a clay 2013 sweep or which slams he will win to touch 17. First lets focus on slam No 12, then 13 before talking about 17.

I somehow have this figure of 7 stuck in my mind of Rafas titles this year till Wimbledon 2013, not sure where and how it came from but something tells me Rafa will win 7 till Wimby 2013. He has won 3 already, which 4 of remainder 7 will he wn is the question (MC, Barcelona,Madrid, Rome, RG, Halle, Wimby). I hope he doesn't win Barcelona, Madrid, Halle :-) and takes the other 4 :-)

^^^Hahaha, sanju! You begin to tell us not to predict and then you go ahead and make predictions yourself!

No RITB, I did not make a prediction at all, read my message clearly. I said a figure of 7 has stuck in my mind from the time Rafa came back and I am sharing that. I am not predicting he will, I am just saying something within me is throwing number 7. I may for all you know be wrong because I cant explain what is throwing the number 7 :-)

So, sanju, you are hearing voices, are you? Thanks for sharing............

..................Something within me is also telling me this:

Rafa will cement his GOTE status by doing a clay sweep (by this I mean whichever clay tourny he enters, he may choose not to enter all of them)

I so hope he doesnt enter all and skips Barcelona so that he is fresh for RG and Wimby

Rafa has plenty of time to beat Roger's 17 slams. Those who say his tennis life is shorter than Djokovic and Murray only have to look at the career of Andre Agassi who started at the age of 16 and retired at the age of 36 and Agassi was not free of injuries and he played hundreds of matches. Similarly, Sampras started at the age of 17 and retired at 31.

Rafa has plenty of time, just as long as Djokovic and Murray who are only a year younger.

Sanju, I would be very, very surprised if Rafa skips Barcelona. If your wish is for him to be fresh for RG then makes more sense for him to skip Madrid, no?

Please, Novak, don't give Roger any ideas:

http://tennis.si.com/2013/03/19/daily-bagel-novak-djokovic-u niqlo-underwear-ads/?sct=tn_bf1_a5

They would have to DIP him in wax and sand-blast it off him, no? Strip waxing just wouldn't be enough!

Madrid is a Masters RITB, more points at stake to grab . In 2010, he skipped Barcelona if you rem to make a clay sweep (MC,Madrid,Rome,RG)

Yes, makes sense from that perspective, sanju. But Madrid has always been the tournament least favourable to his clay game, whereas Barcelona is his home tournament. I guess I have not forgiven Madrid for the way they treated Rafa last year.......ignoring his wishes and putting on that Blue Clay horror show.

When Rafa came back this year there were a number of statements he made which makes me hopeful that Rafans will have much to celebrate this year. In his mind at least he thinks it is possible for him to blast the myth of it being a Nole-Andy show hereafter.

^^I am very hopeful actually (but then, I always am where Rafa is concerned). I really, really hope this 4-week break before MC is enough time for the final leg (pun not intended) of his treatment.

Before he came back, Rafa said the aim was to be 100% for MC and so far it appears this timetable is on track. In Chile, he was interviewed by L'Equipe and he reminded people (a) that he is not that much older than Nole and Muzza and (b) not to take him out to pasture yet!

If he does well at MC I do not think I will be able to contain myself...............

The Nole-Andy show is just a figment of someone's imagination. Rafa skipped Barcelona in 2010 to have treatment on his knee.

The Rafa show with other supporting actors will go on till Rafa retires. Vamos Rafa!

Just imagine that Rafa had not played IW, his fans would have been busy fighting his corner all over the tennis blogosphere against his detractors who would have been telling everyone that Rafa will never win a h/c tournament again. Not only did he play IW, he actually won it with all the gang there, nearly a year after he hit a ball in competition on h/c. If that's not enough to shut them all up, I don't know what will.

Since Rafa won IW, I haven't seen anyone call him just a claycourter. As Rafa said, he came back from his injury and beat them on their best surface.


#GOTE

RITB, even the world's best double handed backhand finds rafa's forehand the toughest shot in tennis ! i always emphasize how big a weapon is rafa's forehand! vamos

Nole has won just 1 GS outside his fav surface (Hard), Murray has won no slam outside his fav surface (Hard), Fed has won just 1 GS outside his fav surfaces (Hard and Grass). Rafa has won 4 outsde clay, yet he has to put up with all these titles like clay specialist, clay courter. Its just jealousy at work.

The truth is he is the CLAY KING but hes not a clay specialist. As said few days back, a clay specialist will not win 4 slams outside clay, 16 titles outside clay and reach 5 more slam finals apart from 4 GS titles outside clay.

Peoplew ho call him a clay specialist need to get their minds checked :-). Ask Novak, Fed, Murray or any of the top 10 if they think he is a clay specialist.

Seriously folks will a cleay specilaist make 9 GS finals outside clay and wn 4 of them and be a career gold slam holder.

Haters really need to do something constructive with their own lives than try to bring Rafa down who is infinite times more successful than them.

vamosrafa, 3/24/13 3:42 PM,

Love this comment! Thanks for reminding us that the best double handed backhand will not stand up to Rafa's forehand!

sanju, 3/24/13 4:13 PM,

I really appreciate this comment illustrating the respective records for GS for the other top three. Nicely done! You make some great points and it's so nice to realize that Rafa is the one who has done best on surfaces other than his favorite clay!

ROTFL, this thread has turned the usual way, to all about Nadal. Whatever happened to Djokovic'?

Whatever happened to Djokovic'?

He is playing in Miami, open the TV and see him if you are missing him so much :-) or rather Youtube some of his matches.

No moron, it's sarcasm. You Nadal fans took over his blog, talking aouit your idol non-stop. Do you understand now moron, with your smart-ass comments. now who's the moron? YOU.

Its democratic and anyone can talk about anything. If you can post your verbal diarrohoea garbage and stink every thread with your filth due to ur disorder personality , what Rafa fans post about Rafa is harmless compared to it.

Really, @scoretracker, if you are going to call @sanju a moron for purpotedly not understanding your sarcasm then you should call yourself a moron too.........for not understanding his sarcasm in his post of 3/25/13 5:21 AM!

Jeez.......

@scoretracker, 10:47

Even on a tennis blog the man with the charisma upstages Djokovic. You cannot get away from it.



#some are born great
#star quality
#charisma

#charisma gap

@scoretracker, this could be why Rafa is the topic of discussion, he is HOT and Djokovic is nowhere on the list:

http://www.thetennisspace.com/whos-hot-and-whos-not-27/

"T he fliers and fallers on the ATP and WTA this week?

HOT

Rafael Nadal
The Spaniard cemented his comeback on, well, cement, winning his first hard court title since September 2010 (Tokyo) with victory in Indian Wells. Not only that, he beat three top 10 players to do it (Juan Martin Del Potro, Tomas Berdych and Roger Federer), moved to his 600th match win, and became the first player to win 22 ATP Masters 1000 titles, one more than friend and foe Roger Federer. All proof that he?s not just back to be a clay-court champion. Tennis is very happy about that."

Why do we need to be reminded when Rafa last won a h/c title, why don't they remind us when was the last time Djoker won a clay title or that Murray has never won a clay title? They also have to constantly remind us about how old Rafa is; we never get to find out how old Djoker and Murray are...........everyone, they are 1 year younger than Rafa, so every time they tell how old Rafa is, just subtract 1 and you'll know how old Djoker and Murray are.


#Hot

RITB/Nadline : You are trying to make a peron whose only claim to fame is 'verbal diarrohoea' see some sense. Futile effort, just ignore the stinking pest :-)

Exactly the point am trying to make, a champion who has won 16 titles outside clay, 4 slams outside clay, made 9 GS finals outide clay has to prove his all court expertise whereas the 'Other 3' are happily only amassing titles on their favorite surface and its all okay.

Well it only goes to show 1 thing, expectations from Rafa are far higher than the other 3, thats the only way I see it :-) and its good, its nice there are so many expectations from Rafa, if he lives upto it and silences all the haters, it will be perfect :-)

@ 3/24/13 10:47 PM

S/T does have the propensity to derail discussions. Things were rolling along nicely pretty much on topic until the intervention above. It seems she had not grasped that the subject of the thread was not Djokovic per se but the chasm which opened up when Federer and Nadal failed to appear in Miami.

^^^Exactly.

sanju , 3/25/13 11:16 AM

Quite, which just confirms that Rafa is...............HOT!

I hope he sizzles his way to victories on the clay courts from MC to RG.

Vamos!!

vamosrafa , 3/24/13 3:42 PM

Another view from a pro:

From Gilles Muller:

?To be honest, I prefer to play (Roger) than to play Nadal, for example, or Djokovic, because they make you suffer on the court. They make you physically suffer on the court. And Roger?s more the guy who hits winners so it?s not as hard physically to play him.?

Hahaha.....take a number, Gilles, there is a queue forming of the number of players who PREFER to play Roger!

@ed, I'd suggest you ignore my posts, but I'm thinking that it would deprive you of harassing me. How about giving it a try.I don't read your posts, except those in which you mention me.

I know you'd like to see me leave, permanently. I go away for weeks at a time, but I notice that the fights are still ongoing with other posters. Thus, this derailment of which you speak, is not accurate. Since I'm such a problem for you, how about writing to the mods and asking them to ban me PERMANENTLY.
.
@ritb: where were you last week when sanju was calling me names, among them moron, and loser. This was again repeated today on several threads yesterday.

I know you are a gang, and gang members have loyalty, but how about just GETTING YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE JUMPING IN with the accusations.. I also think you should try to ignoe anything I write. I do the same with you, except when you insert my name, but even then I don't answer you, e.g., last week.

I know all of you want me out of here, I'd suggest you write a petition to the moderators and list yor reasons. i'm sure yo'll be accommodated.

ritb, what were you doing in the 'other place', seems like you are having much more fun here. Rafa fans have to be on their best behaviour in the 'other place' or they get dumped on.


#Lets his racquet do the talking
#GOTE

"Twinge is in denial which I can understand as he claims not to watch Nadal so he is missing out on the most exciting player ever..."

There must be some sort of psychological term to describe a broken record like you.
Certainly you are immune to the joys of reason, that's for sure.
I didn't say I don't watch Nadal either, you've already been told. I just don't very often as i (personally!) do not find his tennis all that interesting and i am not sold on his cult of personality the way you are.
Too bad if you can't accept it as frankly there are more important things to think about (Like taking out the rubbish for example).
Which is more than can be said for the way this thread has disintergrated into tedious masturbatory nonsense. Thanks to the usual suspects.
lol!

scorchedbrainer, 3/25/13 3:04 PM

Houston, scorchedbrainer has left the planet.

#DroppedOnHeadAtBirth

Twinge, you are in the minority as the subject of this thread suggests.


#charisma
#GOTE
#Lets his racquet do the talking

"@ed, I'd suggest you ignore my posts, but I'm thinking that it would deprive you of harassing me. How about giving it a try.I don't read your posts, except those in which you mention me..."

LIAR! How could you know that you are mentioned in the posts if you don't read them?

blahblahblah!
Its time you got yourself some gainful employment dear, haunting TT 24/7 is having some longtime degenerative consequences.
One other thing, if you are SO sure about how wonderful Rafa is and how strong his comeback is etc.
Why go on AND ON about it?
Why not let Rafa's `racquet do the talking`.
Surely the lady doth protest far too much methinks.
;)

Because she starts her posts with my name at the beginning of the very first line. Are you an habitual liar that you know I'm one? Pitiful.

I think the above is the closest you can ever get to talking about tennis.

@ 3/24/13 10:47 PM

S/T does have the propensity to derail discussions

How's the above grab ya., eh?

Twinge, how hard is it to swim against the tide?


#GOTE

^^
Just Doing the back stroke as i type here Nagline.
easy peasy!

At least you accept that you are swimming against the tide.

#In denial

I meant THIS tide,
The tide of demented nadaltards.
Hardly in denial, more in disagreement but what is the point trying to reason with such
a creature as yourself.
carry on!

nadline , 3/25/13 3:06 PM

I must admit I do have a sadistic streak in me, I am ashamed to say, and thus do enjoy popping onto the "other site" now and again to torment the Rabid Fedfans on there. Warms the cockles of my heart watching them go postal!

Twinge, as entertaining as your posts are you're wasting your time mate, you shouldn't call people demented tho! Anyway Nadline cant accept that not everybody likes Nadal as much as she does, no idea why!

^^^Rafa haters can't accept that not everyone hates Rafa as they do.


#109:42
#72%

Sigh. Nadline I've told you once and I'll tell you again, I don't hate Rafa, okay? Not being a fan doesn't equate hate. Don't say I'm in denial or anything like that, I just don't hate him, it's as simple as that!

Nadline reminds me of a certain politician who said something about only two options when choosing sides, something like "either with us, or against us". Well, how about being neutral? How about enjoying great points, giving credit where it's due, and follow the example of your favorite player (words like "humble" and "class" should ring a bell)?

^^^"Are you one of u?"


#109:42
#72%
#GOTE

...what?

"Are you one of us?" If not you are against us.


#109:42
#72%
#GOTE

rbennett, you should know those numbers off by heart

Rafa's h2h with the top 10 - 109 wins, 42 losses = 72% success rate so that means he is The Greatest Of This Era - GOTE.

Nadline - do you really think that? That 'if you're not with us you're against us'? Thanks for that stat by the way!

^^^I wish people wouldn't take me too seriously. I like to tease and take the mickey when people get annoyed. I love Rafa as a tennis player and that's all there is to it but some people enjoy extending beyond ridiculous heights so I play along with it.

I'm not annoyed, nor convinced that you're kidding as much as you say. If you are though, I'd recommend kidding less!

ha ha, GOTE, is that the thing hanging down from the goat's chin? Well if that is what it's meant to be, then it's just a smidgen as compared to the GOAT itself. A few hairs on the GOAT's chin, as in 17-11.

@danica, you've got that right. It's a two-lane highway, either for or against. a lot of things that are said in jest are well-meaned to be what the other feels.

a lot of things that are said by you are nothing but rants and delusions disguised as talking about tennis...

The difference is, Rafa is the GOTE, Federer is not the GOAT. How can the goat's beard own the goat?

#19-10

"I love Rafa as a tennis player and that's all there is to it but some people enjoy extending beyond ridiculous heights so I play along with it..."

What a lamed assed cop out and frankly as rbennett says i am too less than convinced about you not being serious. You think you can wind people up nadline.
Trust me i am a master at this & i know if i started on you just how upset almost immediately you would get.
lol, so no I don't buy it.

I "get" nadline's humour, pity some people take themselves way too seriously.........

Twinge you are a master at this, don't just say it, do it. You love to talk the talk, let's see you walk the walk.


#GOTE
#72%
#109:42

Do what precisely dearest?
You know i love a challenge from time to time!
If its a wind up, well, be careful what you wish for that's all I'll say ;)
You're just SO easy to make fun of you see.
Alternatively you could go off and get a nice dinner prepared for Mr Nadline & earn your keep for a change.

Twinge you say you are a master at winding people up, let's see what you can do.

"pity some people take themselves way too seriously.."

whine whine whine, this site is jam packed with complainers & mopers
nadline's humour is difficult to get......
Because it is almost non existent!
All the `oh but i was only joking you see` stuff is not very cool too.
No, It just really isn't you know girls.

^^just proves my point....

"Twinge you say you are a master at winding people up, let's see what you can do..."

Brave words.
I've heard them before too, from people far more digitally potent than your good self.
Yet their hubris still cost them & then some.
Lets see..NO, I won't wind up anyone even you just for the sake of it. I need a reason & of course timing is EVERYTHING ;)
Also as i have recently stated this place is swarming with crybabies.
What's the matter anyway luv, are you bored?

I see the incredible Muzz is not even attempting to fill the charisma gap in Miami.


#charisma
#GOTE

Having charisma is SO 2010 nadline.
I doubt it will ever be centre stage again,
at least not for the next 5years anyway

This thread was not written 5 years ago, was it?

I understand why you want to brush 'charisma' under the carpet, but it's what is keeping the box office busy when you know who is on the draw sheet, without him, everything is just a little dull, no?

#charisma
#GOTE

"but it's what is keeping the box office busy when you know who is on the draw sheet, without him, everything is just a little dull, no?...

Who?
Roger federer?

^^^Roger Federer????????

Read this from all those years ago

Friday, 11 January 2008, 11:12 GMT



E-mail this to a friend Printable version




Extratime: Rafael Nadal


World men?s number 2 tennis player
Rafael Nadal

In a HARDtalk interview first broadcast on 11 January 2008, Rob Bonnet talks to the world number 2 tennis player.

Rafael Nadal has three Grand Slam wins to his name, charisma and talent to burn ? and he's still only 21 years old.................

Friday, 11 January 2008, 11:12 GMT



E-mail this to a friend Printable version




Extratime: Rafael Nadal



World men?s number 2 tennis player
Rafael Nadal




In a HARDtalk interview first broadcast on 11 January 2008, Rob Bonnet talks to the world number 2 tennis player.



Rafael Nadal has three Grand Slam wins to his name, charisma and talent to burn ? and he's still only 21 years old

Friday, 11 January 2008, 11:12 GMT



E-mail this to a friend Printable version




Extratime: Rafael Nadal



World men?s number 2 tennis player
Rafael Nadal




In a HARDtalk interview first broadcast on 11 January 2008, Rob Bonnet talks to the world number 2 tennis player.



Rafael Nadal has three Grand Slam wins to his name, charisma and talent to burn ? and he's still only 21 years old................

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/7182872.stm

Memories by nadline....

Memories,
Like the corners of my mind!
Misty water-colored memories
Of the way we were
Scattered pictures,
Of the smiles we left behind
Smiles we gave to one another (Rafa yes yes you did when i jumped out from the stands to greet you)
For the way we were
Can it be that it was all so simple then?
Or has time re-written every line?
If we had the chance to do it all again
Tell me, would we? could we?
Memories, may be beautiful and yet....
What's too painful to remember
We simply choose to forget
So it's the laughter
We will remember
Whenever we remember...
The way we were...

aaawwwww!

In a HARDtalk interview first broadcast on 11 January 2008, Rob Bonnet talks to the world number 2 tennis player.

Rafael Nadal has three Grand Slam wins to his name, charisma and talent to burn ? and he's still only 21 years old................

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/7182872.stm

Thanks, Twinge.

Well, we shouldn't overlook your charisma when all is said and done, should we dear ;)

Huh, the press uses the word "charisma" when it suits them and it more or less branded any interesting player "charismatic" just like any new one is "exciting" ( I read many such texts, am just too lazy too look 'em up now just so I could prove my point). Boris Becker was exciting, Andre Agassi, Roger, Rafa, Nole... all the new kids that did something big on the stage, were exciting. As for me, I am more excited about seeing Gulbis back than Rafa. We know Rafa, we know how great he can play, we know he already came back a few times before. Nothing new there. But I hope that Ernie will stay and finally show us on a more consistent level what he is capable of.

The text about gap in the last leg of the last season was more in terms of having unbalanced draws without Rafa since one side was obviously easier with only one heavy weight there.

I dunno. I stopped idolizing other people when I was 17. The talk about who is more "exciting" or "charismatic" is surreal to me.

`exciting` is a word worth using in tennis i think.
But i too think that `charismatic` is much less important.
its all about the tennis to me, i could care less about the charisma which is just as well.
I'm a Muzz fan!
but he has his own qualities that i appreciate personality wise.
And the fedal story is ancient now!

All of you are in denial. danica, I don't think they werereferring to the gap in the draws in 2008, do you?

#charismatic

Yes, fedal is ancient history. Sadly there are people, including posters on this site, who were hoping the 7-month injury lay-off made Rafa history too. They are really having a hard time digesting what has recently transpired and the "awful" realisation that not only is Rafa not yet history, he never went away in the tennis sense............

ritb,

Well said! Rafa said it himself. He reminded someone in an interview that he was #1 in the ranking points last year when he had to stop playing. I don't know about fedal, but Rafa is going to be a force in tennis for some time. He's not going anywhere. The very fact that he took off seven months to finally let his knee heal properly, says it all. That's not a young man who is planning on leaving any time soon.

Like I said, there were numerous occasions where different (and I underline the word "different") players were called charismatic by a journalist here and there. And besides, it is more a personal view. I find Rafa more charismatic than Roger. I find Nole more charismatic than Rafa. But I also find Gulbis, Safin, Monfils more charismatic than Nole. In the end, it means nothing to me and honestly, I don't understand why some try to prove that their favorite player is more this and that than the others. I am totally with Twinge on this.

"Novak Djokovic is not not alarmed in the least by the absences at the Miami Masters of Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal, with the world No. 1 quite prepared to take up the slack in charisma for the 10-day event."

Johan Lindhal's personal view................

3/22/13 12:37 AM | Johan Lindahl

I've never heard anyone call Nole charismatic, never. Except for danica, of course. They have problems selling the tickets with Nole there in the absence of Rafa and Roger. Why would Nole have to TRY and make up the gap in charisma in the absence of Rafa and Roger?

danica, next you'll be telling us that Stepanek and Wawa are charismatic.

"They are really having a hard time digesting what has recently transpired and the "awful" realisation that not only is Rafa not yet history, he never went away in the tennis sense..."

I hope you are not referring to me.
My take on this anyway is that the hype machine has been in overdrive here.
He easily beat ferrer in the finals of mexico, who then went out in his first match in the next tournament.
Similarly he beat del Potro who then went out etc.
Clearly both were running on fumes
I'm not diminishing his return to form at all but these are the facts & here's the thing..
Rafa is clearly back to about 95/97% But i don't believe its 100% at all yet. At least nothing has been demonstrated to me so far that he is there. That final 3 or 4% is what is crucial for slam success & is also the hardest to get back, we will have to see when the other 3 are all clear & present & how he does then.
Novak and Andy & are also not going anywhere and quite a lot has changed in even the 7 months since rafa was out, they will be playing far better very soon.
At least it should be interesting.
The propaganda here is RIDICULOUS.
Its not necessary either, being objective about our favourites is always the best way.
And stating this doesn't mean I'm a hater etc or whatever other childish complaint that will get thrown.
But whatever.

^^Why would you think I was referring to you?

^^Although i think its a safe bet that the clay court swing proper shall restore nadal to his best game, whatever that is in 2013.
it always has before no?

Rafa said he was working on reaching 100% playing level by Monte Carlo. So, we know he has been playing at less than 100% thus far.

well just in case you were ;)
Anyway judging by the out of control smoke blowing here one would have thought Rafa had completed the calendar slam.
The real season has been a late starter this year without a doubt & has yet to show its hand.

..........and Rafa at less than 100% is good enough to scythe through a loaded Masters 1000 field and take a hard court trophy, after not playing on the surface, his least favourite, for a year.

"I've never heard anyone call Nole charismatic, never. Except for danica, of course..."

One other thing. I really like Novak's personality, which is more important than charisma to me.
He has the most personality of the 4 of them and is clearly a lot of fun.
Also both Novak and Andy's stories (the dunblane massacre & the serbian war) are huge even if they don't fit a specific tennis narrative.
Charisma?
Meh Rafa isn't even in the running in the charisma stakes when compared to many, many other figures in entertainment overall.
So believe it or not boys & girls it ain't that hard to be resistant to his charms (or his `charms`) AT ALL.
Sorry.

The fact that Nadal got a w/o and did not have to face Murray or the djoker, only a tired DelPo, is not mowing through the field IMO. If Nadal had to faceDelPo, Djoker and Murray without a w/o then I'd say he mowed through the field. He got very lucky IMO.

I think it's unfortunate that anyone would try to demean Rafa's win at I/W. It's not Rafa's fault that Delpo was able to take out both Murray and Nole. He played better in those matches and deservedly got to the final. It's who plays the best in the tournament. That's who Rafa faced in the final.

Delpo still managed to play very well, tired or not. He had his chances when he was up a set and a break. But Rafa turned it around as he has done so many times in the past.

Rafa faced a red hot Gulbis and also a Berdy playing some of his best tennis. He beat a Fed who wasn't at his best, but that's how it goes. Gulbis, Fed, Berdy and Delpo would not be considered an easy draw.

I also agree with ritb that Rafa doesn't have to be at 100% to win on clay. I would even say that Rafa not at 100% can win RG. In fact, he's done it already in 2011. Rafa had to go five sets in his first match to beat Isner. He struggled against the likes of Andujar. It wasn't until he faced Sod in the quarterfinals that he produced some really good tennis.

@nny, Rafa wasn't even at 100% at RG2012. He played loaded with anti-inflamatories all through the clay season.

I agree with Twinge that thus far Rafa has not been at 100%, so it is reasonable to assume that he can go up another notch.......

Twinge is good at talking the talk but not walking the walk. He is all about jam tomorrow. There is no point in trying to justify Rafa's win at IW to the blind.

ritb,

Yes, you are correct about the 2012 RG. We found out after the fact that Rafa was getting injections in his knee so that he could continue to play. However, I think that the quality of his tennis in the 2012 RG was overall far above the 2011 RG.

Yes, we can agree that Rafa was not at 100% so far in his comeback. It wouldn't be realistic to expect him to be at his best in such a short time after seven months out of the sport.

There is only one word for whinge - deluded.


#GOTE

Hello? Is anyone watching the Nole/Hass match? Hass won the first set 6-2! I am not kidding!

Haas just broke Nole again in the first game of the second set! He's only lost three points on his serve!

People are missing something quite extraordinary!

^^ Not something that extraordinary. Haas has always given Nole fits, and Nole's level is not upto scratch.

Don't agree with Twinge. Rafa has all the charisma, especially appealing to the ladies and even small kids. I assume Twinge is male so may not feel Rafa's charisma. Rafa appeals to many many women of all ages, young or old. He has his childlike sweetness and boyish charm, he's like a big brother to little kids (U. Toni's children love to be with Rafa), and like a good son or nephew to some older people, yet he's hot and appealing to teenage girls and adult women. He need not do much though to get such followings, just be his normal self and even with imperfect English.

Even if we his fans don't know him personally and may not care about his personal life, his warrior spirit and his 'give it his all' attitude on the tennis court is enough appeal for us to love and support this warrior whole heatedly!

'Whole-heartedly' I mean.

samprallica, 3/27/13 3:57 AM,

So are you saying that you saw this coming? Because I certainly didn't! Giving Nole fits is one thing, beating him in straight sets on hard court is another thing entirely.

It is not surprising to see most Fed fans take the slightest opportunity to diss anything Rafa did. Well no one even gave him an outside chance to do anything in IW, he actually won it and now hes termed as lucky as he got a walkover, wounded Fed (LMAO), mentally fragile Berd and tired Delpo. Great!! I hope Rafa gets all the luck this way in all future slams too :-)

Will the Fed fans really admit Fed got super lucky to win RG 2009 as an injured Rafa got taken out by Robin, will they admit he got super lucky in Wimby 2012 for playing under the roof against both Murray and Djoko, will they admit he was lucky in reaping advantage of Rafas injury from time to time? Ahh I bet not.

Twinge - You say that the Rafa fans hype him him, well maybe to an extent, but I think you also leave no stone unturned in defending Murray and hyping him up and going all out to put him on par wth the other 3. Your attitude towards Murray is actually no different I feel than a hardcore Rafa fans attitude towards Rafa :-) And guess what, I think its all okay, we are all touchy and protective about our favourites :-)

Nativenewyorker , 3/27/13 4:49 AM

Strangely enough, I had a bad intuitive feeling about the match before it started. But no, I didn't expect it to happen - I just knew it was going to be tough.

^^^^

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't aware that Haas has been a difficult opponent for Nole in the past. I guess you knew something that I didn't!

Your intuition was correct. Sometimes I get those feelings before a match and they are usually pretty accurate.

"Your attitude towards Murray is actually no different I feel than a hardcore Rafa fans attitude towards Rafa :-) And guess what, I think its all okay, we are all touchy and protective about our favourites.."

No i disagree. I will defend Andy but i am very aware of his shortcomings and have talked about them many, many times here.
And i don't think he is comparable to the other 3 yet. He still has a ways to go, if he even gets there.
There is certain things i still really don't like about his on court attitude & tactics either, & I am glad I only heard of him 3 years ago. I cant imagine what long term fans were put through before.
Nice try sanju but you're not quite accurate.
I don't see ANY objective analysis about rafa from rafa fans here. At least too often.
I understand how difficult it is to do it with nagline fuming away at even the slightest attempt at objectivity but really having some online bag lady dictator act as your thought police really isn't a good enough excuse to be cowardly.
Just my 3 cents nadalisters ;)

Hahahahaha Twinge! You make me laugh.

Loyalty is the word in my books. Loyalty. If Rafa is unfairly criticised I'll defend him. I don't care who is doing the criticism.

^^Heil Nagline!

Tough loss for Nole. So many UEs - 30+!!!!

However, it will certainly make the race more interesting. With that loss, look for Rafa to be No. 1 very shortly, perhaps even prior to the FO . That would be par for the GOAT, considering he completely missed AO.

#RafaIStheBest
#HereComesTheGOAT

^^I doubt it. Not even if he takes the channel slam.
he still has a lot of points to defend right up until wimbledon.
Novak is well ahead of everyone still.
Or do you mean the race to London points?

However, it will certainly make the race more interesting.

Conspirator , 3/27/13 12:46 PM

Clear enough for me.............

Rafa can only gain points in Madrid until the end of the clay season. From Wimbledon onwards, he has a total of 45 points to defend so we will see what's going on, no?

Yeah you obviously meant that.
Ferrer is 3rd right now with seven tournaments played.
Wow.

We will indeed but it is unlikely anyone other than Novak is going to be Number 1 this year.
He is just too far ahead and he only got the one slam last year too.
Still more abortions like last night might shake things up a bit.

The race to London is what determines the YE #1, ranking points are so last year. Rafa is only interested in the race to London, if he cared about the ranking points he would have played and won Miami.

#GOTE
#109:42
#72%

"if he cared about the ranking points he would have played and won Miami..."

hohoho I'm not so sure about that one.
Has je ever won it before?
The RTL points eventually become the YE ranking.
Youre

Twinge, Nole is precisely 1090 points ahead of Rafa as of today as far as YE#1 is concerned. What makes you think he is that far ahead of everyone?

#GOTE

...JAMMING TOMORROW I SEE.
;)
Oh well it is to be expected from the most fedfan nadal fan I have ever seen.
Pity your debating skills don't match up to your ability to propagandize.

This is not a case of jam tomorrow. The facts are that everyone starts with zero points on a 52 week rolling basis. Nole now has over 10,000 points to defend to the end of the year so his ranking points play no role in his year end ranking.

Twinge, you don't seem to understand how it works.

So what?
Ferrer is easily 3rd having played 7 tournaments.
he wont be finishing 3rd that's for sure.
Nadal missed Miami because he didnt want to push his luck that much is obvious.
Just because the other players are `near` Novak right now means little (although a bit more than last year)
Wait until wimbledon (which federer shall have to defend not Novak may i add) and lets see how it plays out my sweet.
Nadal has little to gain until then and historically has not been at his best in the asian swing but you never know!

^^^Just stick to the facts for now.

it is a case of jam tomorrow.
You think nadal is on his way to number one again becuase he is only 1000 points behind Novak at this stage when he has already played in 5 tournaments.
It is not reasonable to expect him to be losing for the rest of the year like he has so far.

In case you hadnt noticed `facts` are rarely your forte (nor analytical thinking).
I wont indulge you in your wishful thinking either.
Sorry.

It is not reasonable to expect him to be losing for the rest of the year like he has so far.
Twinge, 3/27/13 1:25 PM

This is all conjecture. You are full of 'ifs and buts' 'could and would'. I am prepared to stick to the facts, you carry on fantasising.

It's `fantasising` thinking that the world number 1 is going to be losing to the likes of Haas for the rest of the year?!?
So Nadal can get back to his (in your eyes) rightful place no doubt (jam tomorrow!).
Okay then!
If & only if that happens is Rafa getting to number one this year lol.

Nole need not be losing like he did to Haas, just losing one round before Rafa, so that Rafa can finish ahead of Nole. It's possible, if Rafa can rake up many points during the clay and grass season. It's not a matter of defending points, it's a matter of gaining points as they go along (so Fed defending points at Wimbledon is irrelevant). I've more confidence in Rafa than in Nole on clay and grass. Unless Nole can win everything on the HCs and Rafa does poorly there, it's possible that Nole may not finish the year as no.1.

Its possible but unlikely.
Rafa is the DEFENDING champion of all of his clay court tournaments. If Rafa wins Wimbledon and Novak loses the round before he has defended his points (that's why i mentioned federer really), didn't win the US Open either. I think it is unlikely Nadal has the heart to go on a tear on any HC ever again to be honest, and why would he in Asia?
Yes it is still possible but it remains to be seen, to say the least..
He has nothing to defend at the AO so that might just be his chance, but we shall see.
I don't mind if Rafa or Novak is number one if that's the choice tbh.
Obviously its someone else i would prefer to see ;)

Why are you talking about defending points?? We're talking about YE no.1 and that's what Rafa is concerned with. As I said, it's more likely Rafa will win more tournaments during the clay season than Nole will. Do notice that in 2012, Rafa was the race leader by the end of the clay season, and that's when he had 2010 points by the end of Miami, vs 1900 now after winning IW and missing Miami and AO. He has now four weeks of rest, compared to last year when he had to withdraw from Miami with knee pain. He's in a better condition now to compete compared to last year. Of course anything could happen, but that also applies to Nole too. If you can assume that Nole would win all the HC events, why then can't I assume Rafa would win all the clay events plus maybe even Wimbledon?

Defending points is mutually exclusive from year end rank.

#Respectfully
#TennisTalk

If nadal wins 3 slams this season he will almost certainly finish the year number 1. (the guy who wins the most slams usually finishes number1) If he and novak split the 4 slams(2 each) I think Novak will finish number 1, as he will likely rack up more points in the fall indoor swing. So I think djokovic finishing number 1 is still the most likely outcome.(even though its not guaranteed)

I don't think Twinge understands the points system.

I am NOT saying that Rafa will end the year as #1 all I'm saying is the race has just begun and Nole is 1090 points ahead; that's all we know at the moment. Rafa started off 2011 way ahead in points and #1 in the rankings to Nole's #3 and Nole ended the year as #1.

Nothing at all guarantees Nole the year end #1 ranking.


#stick to the facts

Twinge is such a rabid Rafa-Hater, he can't see the wood for the trees.

"Defending points is mutually exclusive from year end rank..."

Okay so its seems i am missing something as surely when one loses points by failing to defend them this will result in the YE ranking ultimately being lower, no?
Even though they are not shown as points in this table.
Can one have a number one year end ranking without defending anything?
There probably isn't enough tournaments for that to be possible.

"I am NOT saying that Rafa will end the year as #1 all I'm saying is the race has just begun and Nole is 1090 points ahead.."

And so what?
I know you too well Nadline to avoid what you are really suggesting..

Defending points has everything to do with the week to week rankings but absolutely NOTHING to do with the year end rank. The year END rank is basically the number of points you accumulate throughout the year. Nadal is currently 1090 points behind NOvak. (in terms of points accumulated this year) In order to end the year ranked ahead of novak, he needs to outpoint djokovic by more than 1090 points for the rest of the season. That's how the whole thing works basically.

Twinge, yes, if a player did not play any tournaments in 2012 he would have nothing to defend and could still end 2013 as No. 1.

You only defend points from the previous year.

Your year-end rank has nothing to do with points earned in the previous calendar year.

Defending points only has to do with your current ranking based on the last 52 weeks.

#HopeThisHelps

Yes i know the difference between the week to weeks & the year end.
But if you are accumulating points on the YE.
Oh never mind :)

Conspirator is right, if a player has not played in 2012, he has nothing to defend in 2013. Yet he still could end the year 2013 as year end no.1 as long as he collects more points in 2013 than anyone else.

I'll try to clear up my position. If rafa did not defend his clay court points this year or Andy his hc and so on neither would be getting close to number one this year.
But if they came out of nowhere and won everything then yes they would get to Number one on the YE & eventually the week 2 week by the year end etc.
This is what i meant.

I knew that's what you meant Twinge.

#TennisTalk

I knew you did Conspirator ;)
There's not enough tournaments for a player (hypothetically) to win the YE ranking and not be number 1 on the week to week also at some point in the year of course.
You're taking the points from someone else, normally your nearest rivals.
If the tour was 40% clay however...

Twinge, these are the points on offer from now on regarding M1000 and slams:-

8 x M1000 = 8,000 points
3 x slams = 6,000 points
Barcl YE = 1,500 points

Not including 500s and 250s, there are 15.500 on offer till the end of the year, so at this stage, anyone can end the year as #1. Understand?

More immediately, as far as rankings go throughout the year, Olympic points all come off on the 5th of August, so these points will come off with no chance of defending them

Murray - 750
Federer - 450
Delpo - 340
Nole - 270

Understand?

but that also depends on whether Nole 'defended' all his points too!

tj - but there're only two indoor events at end of year. Nole usually did well in one but not two of them, eg in 2009 he won Paris but didn't make it to the SF at WTF; in 2010 he lost early at Paris and reached the SF of WTF; in 2011 he made QF of Paris but lost during RR of WTF. Last year, he won WTF but lost in R2 of Paris.

Also, Nole isn't as dominant on HC the way Rafa is on clay, so he may not win all the HC titles during the second half of the HC season. There're Murray and Delpo who may spoil the party of Nole on the HCs, if Fedal are not able to do the job.

"Not including 500s and 250s, there are 15.500 on offer till the end of the year, so at this stage, anyone can end the year as #1. Understand?.."

Anyone can `hypothetically` you tiresome woman, but in practice there are only a few with a real shot.
Is it unrealistic or fantasy to assume that the sun is coming up tomorrow?
or that if you were hit by a bus (no comment) you might break a few bones or die.
Technically these are still predictions, but are rooted in probability.
It is possible, but unlikely, for many other players to get to number one this year given the points still out there. Regardless of the YE points at this stage that have been accumulated.
But here's the thing Novak is still well ahead despite being underpar and it is only in Madrid where Rafa can really improve his ranking on the YE until wimbledon.
I still think for anyone other than Novak to be number one (YE & w2w) is a bit of a long shot.
But yes i forgot about the olympics points so things will `probably` be a lot closer come year end.
Understand?

Unless Novak has a complete meltdown ofcourse!
But losing to Del Potro and Haas when the AO is safely in the bag oh and dubai hardly constitutes that.
More wishful thinking & hoping from the usual suspects.

Twinge, you are confused! Go and lie in a darkroom and try and understand how it works.


#confused of TT

^^yeah right, I'm confused but you are dumb so we are even aren't we?

dumb no sorry you're not that.
I meant DEMENTED lol

Twinge, Nole is well ahead because Rafa only has half a season's points week on week! Again it's the race points that matters when we're talking about YE rankings.

True but he is still ahead of Rafa on the YE also.
And his `half a season` is Rafa's main season bar wimbledon anyway.
We will will see how it plays out.

I thought Twinge was a Murray fan, but no, he is undoubtedly a Rafa-hater.


#hatefest

bulls**t you've been saying i hate rafa for the last 18 months i've been on here.
lol

Tennis is a tough sport to commit to attending in person. You buy tickets months in advance not knowing who is going to pull out and if the top players will be there in the later rounds. It's a crap shoot.

In the last eight in Miami, only one Top 4 player left. Nothing against Muzz, but that's a pretty depleted field from a big name perspective for the common fan. Gotta be a lot of disappointed fans.

We went to Montreal in '09 when all Top 8 made QFs. We saw Rafa play twice including vs Delpo, saw Nole vs Roddick, classic Fed vs Wawa, among others.

However, when we returned in '11, only Nole made it to the QF. Both Rafa and Muzz lost their first matches (Dodig, Anderson) and Fed lost R16. Still fun but was nowhere near the same experience. The one match I thought would be really good was Nole vs Tsonga and the first set was except Tsonga quit after the first set because he had a slight problem and was worried about USO.

I'm about to get tickets for Montreal again. I was on the fence thinking Rafa might not even appear. However, if healthy, after skipping Miami, he will be there and I think he will do much better so of we go again!

The other great thing about Montreal is that they love their tennis. Great crowds. Not like all of the empty seats I saw in Miami last night. However, ticket sales were down without Naderer and perhaps the cold weather discouraged many from attending. It was in the low teens and many were wearing lined jackets!

#Nipply

That said, still three very intriguing QF matchups in Miami.

Reeshard vs The BigByrd: interesting but Tomas should win in straights.
Haas vs Simon: Can the old guy keep it going or will there be a letdown?
Cilic Vs Muzz: Cilic has a good shot at this match if he can keep his high level.

My picks: Tomas, Haas, Muzz, Ferru
SF: Ferru over Haas, Muzz over Tomas
F: Muzz over Ferru

#HUM3LE

I know what you mean Conspirator. I went to Dubai last year and extended my stay to 2 months to take in Abu Dhabi hoping Rafa would be there and it was such a disappointment when he couldn't make it. The whole atmosphere was flat, especially as they had replaced Rafa's giant poster at the entrance alongside Djokovic's, with Almagro's. There were posters of Rafa all over the place as a past champion and it was so disappointing not to see him in the flesh.

I'd been to AD before when Rafa was there and I could tell the difference.

Defending points is mutually exclusive from year end rank.

Conspirator , 3/27/13 2:42 PM

Huh???
Twinge has rightly pointed out the fallacy.
Mutually exclusive means both cannot happen at the same time or that the happening of one means the other cannot happen.
You defend points and at the same time accumulate points for year end ranking.

The other way round may not always be true. If you play a tournament you hadn't played the previous year, you could accumulate points for year end ranking without defending any points.
At the end of the year the rolling 52 week rank becomes the same as the year end ranking.

Poor choice of words on my part.

You don't have to defend the same tournament points from the precious year to finish the current year at No. 1.

Defending tournament points depends on previous year performance. Previous year performance does not mathematically impact current year end ranking.

But defending points does impact current year ranking. So the two cannot be mutually exclusive. Admit you are wrong and Twinge was right.

What Conspirator is saying is -

Ultimately, it's not whether you defend your points or not it's how many points you accumulate in the current year that matters at YE. In the end gaining points in the race helps you to defend your points. Defending your points per se doesn't help you in the race if you don't have many points to defend.

So yes if Nole gains as many points this year as last year he will do well in the race but that doesn't mean that another player can't do better than Nole in the race because he doesn't have s many points to defend. It's the points to gain this year that matters rather than defending points from last year.

#It's the race that matters at YE

The difference is 'current year END ranking' and 'current year ranking'!

holdserve , 3/28/13 6:09 AM
if you see Twinge posts he is mentioning about year end rankings (not current ranking) and he is saying Nadal is having very little chance to end year as No. 1
I feel it is 50:50 chance between them, it appears whoever wins wimby they will take No 1 (in between Nole & Rafa)

If you talk about current ranking yes ofcourse no one will take no. 1 from him until jun/july he is way ahead

current ranking is from last 52 weeks performance where as year end ranking is all about race from Jan 1st

Djokovic obviously wont win wimbledon, he is horrible on grass.

What twinge is saying is-

You were trying to make a mountain out of a molehill Nadline.
Its obvious what I meant, you just thought you had the opportunity to split hairs and get into an argument due to one misunderstanding I had about one of your posts.
Give it rest.
Current year END ranking and current year ranking or rtl and year end etc.
They do NOT exist in a vacuum, there are not enough points out there for a top player that has played the year before not to defend most of his points as well as accumulate others to maintain his position let alone improve it.That's is due to the fact that the players have to play the same tournaments year in year out.
That was my point, its not that controversial either.
ie if Rafa lost RG he will have failed to defend his points of last year by not earning them again this year.
Hypothetically he might be able to go out and play every 250 & 500 out there to regain them for his YE but lets face it, its not going to happen.
Its not worth getting into an argument about it anyway.
Okay?
Jeez.

"If you talk about current ranking yes ofcourse no one will take no. 1 from him until jun/july he is way ahead.."

No i don't see how anyone can take the current ranking from him then.
Murray has a wimbledon final to defend, whereas Novak only has a semi final. And Nadal even if he gets the channel slam is still too far behind with too many points to earn again to get to number one either (in the current!)
i don't see how anyone can get there REALISTICALLY.
However dependent on how well Novak does or doesn't do there are a few that can move ahead on the Year End by that time..
Including, at this stage, david ferrer lol.

But defending points does impact current year ranking. So the two cannot be mutually exclusive. Admit you are wrong and Twinge was right.
holdserve, 3/28/13 6:09 AM

I think that Twinge and I came to a respectful and mutual understanding. I already said defending points impacts your current ranking and I already said it was a poor choice of words on my part so I'm not sure what you are still taking issue with exactly.

Everyone above has explained it better than I but I'll take another shot at it.

This is the statement from Twinge that I was trying to respectfully clarify:

"Okay so its seems i am missing something as surely when one loses points by failing to defend them this will result in the YE ranking ultimately being lower, no?"

Twinge was not quite right with this assumption.

For example, even though Nole failed to defend his points in 2012 at Wimbledon, IW, Rome, Madrid, Paris and USO and finished 2012 with less points than the finished with in 2011, it did not affect his year end ranking.

Similarly, in 1998, Sampras failed to defend points at AO, FO, Tennis Masters Cup (now WTF), Miami, Cincy and Paris, but he still finished at No. 1 as he did in 1997.

My follow up posts at:

Conspirator, 3/27/13 3:03 PM
Conspirator, 3/27/13 3:03 PM

were intended to clarify and were completely correct as far as I can tell.

We each clarified our points to our mutual satisfaction ending with me saying I now understood what he was trying to say.

#TennisTalk
#Peace

Just so I am clear i am talking about probabilities here.
If Novak is knocked out of every tournament early its going to be a free for all for everyone (current and YE). But he is the world number one so you would have to bet against that happening. No?

Its cool conspirator no harm done,
I actually knew this but i had misunderstood what nadline was getting at & did not explain myself very well.
I'll be more careful in the future ;)

Oh & thank you kindly dear holdserve.
you & I agree more than a Nadal & Murray fan ever should ;)

You forget dear Twinge that I am a Muzz fan too. Thank you anyway.
My objection was to the wrong use of "mutually exclusive" and I liked the way you intuitively opposed it.

Twinge, cool.

Hypothetically he might be able to go out and play every 250 & 500 out there to regain them for his YE but lets face it, its not going to happen.
Twinge, 3/28/13 1:02 PM

Actually, this is what Sampras did to extend his consecutive year end No. 1 record to six years breaking Jimmy Connors record of five years. It was an important record he wanted to go after. He added Lyon, Vienna and Basel to his already busy schedule to make up for points he failed to defend elsewhere.

Here is a great article on his chase...

http://tinyurl.com/caezs9s

"This is more of a career achievement. This year was really my only chance I was going to be able to break this record.

"After the U.S. Open, after coming up short there, I realized I was going to have to play more. I was over here for six weeks and it was well worth it. It'' an example of what it takes to get there and to stay there. You have to commit yourself and sacrifice yourself and that's what I've done over the course of my career."

He made a passionate and determined charge at the finish line, playing six consecutive weeks in Europe--the first time since 1990 he has played six weeks in a row."

#SamprasWasTheBest
#GOTE

Conspirator, you are extremely knowledgeable, witty and smart but probability is your weak point.
Twinge may not have been formally trained in probability but intuitively he is on the right track though due to lack of formal training he may not put forward the right arguments or express them with proper rigor.
What Twinge is saying is it is improbable that somebody would fail to defend his previous year's points and still end up at no. 1 by playing 250s and 500s. He did not say it was impossible.
Your above example does not say that Sampras did not defend any of his points but even assuming that was true and Sampras became number 1 by playing only 500s and 250s and did not defend any of his previous year's points, it only proves it is possible to do so. Like Sherlock Holmes might have said, something could be possible but improbable.

I have many weak points holdserve. Probability and statistics is not one of them. Communications and writing, maybe.

I SHOULD have said that the ****points Nole earned in 2012**** that are there to possibly defend in 2013 are mutually exclusive from ****his year end ranking in 2013****.

I understand everything Twinge said and thanks for your kind complements.

#Likewise
#Peace

^^^ Mutually INDEPENDENT

As I said, communications and writing, maybe. ;)

#Ooops

Twinge:
"They do NOT exist in a vacuum, there are not enough points out there for a top player that has played the year before not to defend most of his points as well as accumulate others to maintain his position let alone improve it. That's is due to the fact that the players have to play the same tournaments year in year out."

This is just utter rubbish!

Twinge, in you twisted understanding of the points and rankings system, Murray is wasting his time aspiring to being #1 because as you see it, Nole is going to be #1 until he retires.

Scatterbrained at times for sure. Comes with my aging brain I think.

#HUM3LE

Message for Twinge.

#PDFFT

Without playing the mandatory tournaments, it is difficult for a player to be year end number 1. A top 30 player can count only a maximum of six 500s and 250s.
So if he wants to be year end number 1, he has to win some from the mandatory events.
Conceivablly a player could play and win two slams one year, 4 Masters and WTF and six 500s/250s and be number 1.
Play and win the other two slams and the other 4 Masters and WTF the next year and win six other events not repeating any events of the last year and again be number 1.
Possible, yes. Probable, no.
Notes: It maybe recalled that WTF points are never defended as they drop off on the Monday following the last regular ATP event of the year and are not subject to remaining in the system for 52 weeks.

Also while Monte Carlo is a Masters and gives 1000 points, it counts for ranking purposes in the 500/250s basket of six.

Conspirator, I have heard of mutually exclusive events and I have heard of independent events (incidentally, mutually exclusive events are never independent).
But "mutually independent" ? What the heck is that supposed to mean?

^^Exactly.
Although there are many variables that can and do occur year to year.
Defending titles year in year out is not a common occurrence over the entire calender (excepting rafa and the clay courts of course) but for the top players
(ie The Top 4), to lose most of their established event's points (Andy and Novak on HC and Rafa on clay) would be something of a disaster as they would have to make this up on other surfaces, tournaments etc. Possible but much more difficult to achieve. In practice.
Anyhoo...:0)

#losing the will to live

#here's hoping!

More brain farts.

Just independent.

@ 3:06 PM

Really Conspirator? I had you marked down a long time ago as being a writer.

Nadline: Exactly. Do you want to borrow my smelling salts?

Sometimes I think too lazily and choose words/terms too loosely which can be suicide around here!

Now, back to our previously scheduled program...

#TennisTalk

It is possible that one may not defend all his titles of the previous year and yet still ends up being YE no.1 of the current year. Nole won 10 titles in 2011, but he failed to defend many of them in 2012 - IW, Madrid, Rome, Wimbledon, USO, Dubai - yet he still finished as YE no.1 in 2012, by winning other titles - Beijing, Shanghai, WTF.

Also, a lot depends on how the rest of the field were doing during the year. One may not end up with 13630 pts or 12920 pts to be YE no.1, but may have 10550 points (like Fed did in 2009) to become YE no.1. Of course if one fails to defend one's title, that means someone else would've gain points for winning it instead, so in that sense one man's loss is another man's gain.

"It is possible that one may not defend all his titles of the previous year and yet still ends up being YE no.1 of the current year..."

ofcourse it is possible!
but to get or stay at number and lose most/all of your points.
Ed i'll have those smelling salts STAT!

Conspirator, in case you are a math buff, there is an exception to my statement that mutually exclusive events can never be independent. It happens in the trivial case where at least one of the events is impossible i.e. an impossible event can be simultaneously mutually exclusive and independent of all other events.
Twinge you are right. I need smelling salts too. So many posters are belaboring the point that it is possible to be year end no. 1 without defending previous year's points. no one is disputing the possibility but only the probability. So I don't know why everyone is belaboring that point.
I think they want to say that merely because Nole was last year's no. 1, it in no way iaffects Rafa being no. 1 this year as last year's points all drop off by year end. Which is obvious, at least to me.
But the issue being debated was not whether last year's no. 1 had any advantage in ranking points in becoming no. 1 this year ( the answer is obviously NO) but whether defense of points impacts this year's ranking. The answer to this is "most probably" as it is highly unlikely that someone will become no. 1 without defending any of his previous year's points.
Don't know why they can't say that instead of giving all kinds of possible scenarios to illustrate the obvious.

Yes, we don't need to split hairs on TT.

#OnlyDjoking

i agree, especially so since some of us might not have enough hairs to split.

^^I think the subtext of all this, Holdserve, is that rafa's devoted fans want him to get to number 1 as quickly as possible. Any & all number ones.
Understandable of course, and they don't want to hear anything else.
It's this mixture of emotions with facts that can lead to messy conversations.
Its probably best to have these discussions after Wimbledon when things shall be clearer in this regard.
Again Novak or Rafa being one is fine with me.
For now at least ;)

If Rafa's knees are fine or at least playable, Rafa can get to no. 1 but most likely it will be toward the end of the year.
Normally whether year end or rolling rank no. 1 involves accumulating more than 10000 points. Even if Rafa wins every event till Wimbledon, he will have only 9650. So unless Nole crashes out early in most of the tournaments till then especially the slams, he will likely still be number 1. Even if he crashes out in the 1st round till and including Wimbledon, he will have at least 8650 points. Is it likely that he will not have at least 1000 points from 2 slams and 3 masters and a 250 event?

" Is it likely that he will not have at least 1000 points from 2 slams and 3 masters and a 250 event?.."

stop speculating & stick to the facts Holdserve ;)

"Conspirator, in case you are a math buff, there is an exception to my statement that mutually exclusive events can never be independent. It happens in the trivial case where at least one of the events is impossible i.e. an impossible event can be simultaneously mutually exclusive and independent of all other events..."

Would the exception in this case only be due to the fact that an impossible event is not a `fact`, but an abstraction.
Curious to know...

Ha ha, yes facts!
Facts are that till now Nole is way ahead of Rafa in ranking points and Rafa can hope to edge past only in the summer hard court season unless something very improbable happens to Nole starting from now.
Nole could get to no. 1 mid season in 2011 and so also Fed in 2012 because they had rolling points from the last half of the previous year. Which Rafa doesn't have.
So while he can be number 1 in race to London starting from start/middle of the clay season, it is highly unlikely he will get the ATP no. 1 ranking before summer hard court.
The race to London of course eventually becomes the year end ranking ( provided Rafa does reasonably well the rest of the year.
I am hopeful Rafa will be number 1. I certainly want him to even though I like Muzz too. Somehow I want Rafa to get the no. 1 ranking and beat Nole everywhere.

And let us not forget Fed is planning to win both RG and Wimbledon with the help of fixed draws so he has a good chance of being number 1 after Wimbledon.

I'd be more than happy with year end No. 1 for Rafa. Getting there any sooner would just be more icing on the cake but realistically wouldn't happen until after the USO.

A major or two for Rafa would be more than fine for me regardless of his ranking.

#VamosRafa

Tiggy, throws his hat in the charisma debate! His take: Miami has to consider changing it;s surface to clay to re-attract Rafa:

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/03/counter-punch/46925/#. UVSjeVdRCDd

"In truth, Miami is facing what every tennis tournament, no matter its surface, will be facing within the next decade?no Roger or Rafa. It has come to this event a little sooner; but it?s possible, with Federer cutting his schedule back and Nadal cutting back on hard courts, that neither will play the Sony Open again. Nadal is the bigger problem, as he will likely be around for longer than Federer. If this March is any guide to the future, the Sony and IMG boys have their work cut out for them. In Miami, Rafa was nowhere to be found. In Indian Wells, the first place he could be found after winning the title was smiling up at a first-row seat, shaking hands with Larry Ellison."

With all his money and being such a Rafan, I'm surprised Larry hasn't switched IW to clay.

#VamosLARRY

#charisma

C'mon, @Conspirator, we want Rafa having more HC tournament wins on his cv, and IW HC is the right kind of HC for Rafa................in any case, laying on a clay surface would be too blatant a statement of his Rafa fanboyism.

#InLarryWeTrust

yes, a major or two is more important than the no. 1 ranking but it is important.
But I would be satisfied if Rafa won just RG and Wimbledon this year and every year till 2016. I am not that greedy for my fav to win everything nor do I want him to play forever.

Ok then. Let Miami be clay!

#KingOfTennis