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  • Friendly draw for Federer in Cincinnati

    8/12/12 2:18 AM | Ricky Dimon
    Friendly draw for Federer in Cincinnati Four-time Cincinnati champion Roger Federer will be well-rested for the upcoming week after skipping Toronto. Federer also finds himself in a soft quarter of the bracket along with Juan Monaco and Mardy Fish.

    Roger Federer will be back in action at the Western & Southern Open after taking a week off and missing the rain-marred Canada Masters. Federer is kicking off his 2012 U.S. Open Series and looking to build on a great grass-court season, during which he won Wimbledon and finished runner-up at the London Olympics.

    It appears to be all set up for Federer to capture his fifth Cincinnati title. The top-ranked Swiss is well-rested, Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray are on the other side of the draw, and his quarter is unquestionably weak.

    Fellow seeds in Federer's section are Juan Monaco, Mardy Fish, and Philipp Kohlschreiber. Monaco is in the midst of an outstanding year, but he does his best work on clay and is a Top 8 seed only because of withdrawals from top players like Rafael Nadal and Jo-Wilfried Tsonga. Fish fared relatively well in Toronto (quarterfinals) but he is still dealing with an ankle injury that he sustained in Atlanta.

    Federer awaits the winner of a first-round matchup between Jarkko Nieminen and Alex Bogomolov. Monaco will contest his opener against either Radek Stepanek or Albert Ramos. One first-rounder to watch is battle of rising youngsters, Ryan Harrison and Bernard Tomic.

    Find the latest tennis odds at Unibet.com

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Comments

Great draw for Fed...and great to see that " #1" by his name in the draw!!!!

scoot , 8/12/12 4:32 AM


Nole has the easiest draw followed by Fed. Ferrer and Murray are on the harsh side of the draw.
At the moment, he looks the fav to win the title.

abhirf , 8/12/12 4:56 AM


Hey, Can we fix this draw so Fed tries harder instead of making it a practise for US Open? .................sure we can, we will do it. .... Great, let us do it then..........

vmm , 8/12/12 5:30 AM


Rigged in the same style as for the OG.

rfzr , 8/12/12 5:51 AM


I am hardly surprised at this.

danica , 8/12/12 6:14 AM


Fed had announced that he would once again dominate the men's tour. Everyone thought he was delusional. But now we know what he had in I mind to recreate the weak era. Wonder why the other players are not calling for an investigation. Are they so scared of FEderer?

holdserve , 8/12/12 6:52 AM


As much as I dont want to believe in the conspiracy theory, the repeated soft draws at Wimby, OG, Cincinnati really raises eyebrows and it is hard not to feel suspicious. Repeated soft draws all boiling down to slice of the dice or pure luck is too difficult to swallow

IF and IF there is indeed rigging, the truth will come out eventually. Karma is a
b!tch and it comes out later, it will really damage all the achievements.

sanju , 8/12/12 7:15 AM


So what's new? He's been handed cup cake draws on a silver platter since as long as I can remember. It makes the achievements of Nadal, Joker and Muzz all the more respectable! Muzz in particular constantly has tough draws.

jean , 8/12/12 7:22 AM


sanju, could you explain to me the actual meaning of the word 'karma'. Seem to me it originated from India, right? I'm just guessing the meaning but not 100% sure I'm correct. Thanks.

luckystar , 8/12/12 7:59 AM


Wow, suddenly one of 'the strongest eras' has become a 'weak era'.
When Murray wins a title going through Nole and Fed, he deserves it coz he had to beat tough opponents and when Fed beats Nole and Murray to win the title, he doesnt deserve it coz his opponents were weak and he had an easy draw. Real double standards here.

abhirf , 8/12/12 8:02 AM


@lucky, 'karma' means one's acts or deeds. One gets repaid for his 'karma'.

abhirf , 8/12/12 8:09 AM


Well, I don't think Fed was handed a kind draw in USO last year. He had to get past Tsonga before semis and then Nole in the semis.

But then again his Olympics and Cincy Masters draw have been really easy although his semi-final opponent proved to be better than the supposedly tougher semifinalist.

I would like to see how his USO draw unfolds. If somehow, Fed again avoids big hitters in big apple, I am sure everyone is entitled to be suspicious.

But if Olympics were to be fixed, Fed might not have got Fella and Julian who had troubled him on grass in past in his first two matches.

so, there are two ways of looking at things.

fedexal , 8/12/12 8:22 AM


And regarding the draws , I never saw people complaining when AndyM got easy draws in Wimby 2011 and FO 2011 . Have to agree with abhirf , that people really have double standards here . Murray's FO 2011 draw was a joke .

fedexal , 8/12/12 8:29 AM


Cheryl/Ricky..

Are we allowed to talk about doping sh#t and add some conspiracy like some fool trying to do with draw conspiracy??

Please answer , If you don't allow anyone to talk about doping conspiracy then why to allow draw conspiracy??

KMA , 8/12/12 1:59 PM


I presume your questions are purely rhetorical KMA. Speculation that draws maybe tweaked is very different from smear campaigns about PED usage.

ed251137 , 8/12/12 2:52 PM


Forget smear campaigns - there is a glaring lack of transparency with the ITF's and ATP's drug testing regimes; the system is a joke and the top players are hardly tested. And yet no tennis journalist wishes to address the subject. The skeptics are right to be skeptical IMO.

samprallica , 8/12/12 3:06 PM


ed251137 , 8/12/12 2:52 PM

who to decide difference b/w "speculation" and "smear campaigns" ....any authority??

KMA , 8/12/12 3:30 PM


samprallica, 8/12/12 3:06 PM I agree completely with your post.

tj600 , 8/12/12 4:41 PM


Ricky is just jealous of TMF for saying he has an easy draw.

#GOAT
#OrderedChaos
#GillianAnderson
#hashtag

Conspirator , 8/12/12 7:13 PM


If as sanjub vays karma is a bitch the eventually all this rigging will tarnish Feds legacy

holdserve , 8/12/12 7:31 PM


Conspirator , 8/12/12 7:13 PM

Ricky is jealous and you are not ...

#senselessasever

KMA , 8/12/12 8:05 PM


Rafa fans aren't jealous of FEd.just disgusted. Fed fans have alwaysbeenjealous of RAfa.

holdserve , 8/12/12 9:17 PM


Friendly draw..... hahaha.... well that's nice way to call it :)
For years and years....
What happened with Friendly schedule?... or Friendly mono... LOL...

zare , 8/12/12 9:17 PM


Hahaha just don't even have to look at the rankings when Fed is #1: the jealous haters ramp up their blabber. I welcome their trash talk so long as Fed is #1. Oh and a 6th Open wouldn't hurt either. You never can tell. Old man Haas will be in the top 10 soon. Old guys you know from the 'weak' era? Lol.

chr18 , 8/12/12 10:00 PM


Hahaha yes Tommy Haas with his four slam SF losses and single Masters 1000 win. He actually reached a high of no. 2 and never even reached a slam final.

Tommy is playing the best tennis in his career certainly better than he had to to reach No. 2 during The Meek Field when the requirements to reach world No. 2 were let's just say... friendly.

#TMF

Conspirator , 8/12/12 10:53 PM


^^^ oh almost forgot....

#jealous
#somefool
#doublestandard
#senselessasever
#h8er
#statisticalchaos

With all this positive feedback from the Federatti, I must be doing something right. LOL

Conspirator , 8/12/12 11:08 PM


Funny to know I can change people's behavior by a few comments here and there, as it appears Conspirator seems to have become a satirical version of old.

ts38 , 8/13/12 4:51 AM


Who is realistically going to beat Fed other than Nole or Murray? Rionic has never beaten him. Tsonga? Not since wimby 2011, Del potro is 2 - 13 against Fed, Berdy is 0 - 3 this season, Ferrer is 0 -14 in his whole career! Fed makes the draw look easy, he's been doing it for years. Get over it, he beats everyone anyway. It's a joke people clutch at straws. Fed would dispatch all the others as he always has done.

brothdog , 8/13/12 9:15 AM


"........he beats everyone anyway. It's a joke people clutch at straws. Fed would dispatch all the others as he always has done."
brothdog , 8/13/12 9:15 AM

I would qualify that if I were you.

nadline , 8/13/12 9:58 AM


It's absolutely tough being a Fed fan posting on this site. We have to deal with the fans of three factions, i.e., Djokovic, Murray and Nadal (who are in the majority).

@brothdog, Yes, Fed makes his draws look easy which is why most of the fans of the other three players, feel his draws are easy. He owns Ferrer, but Nadal fans can't say the same, cpoz Nadal has lost matches to Ferrer. Until 2011, Fed's H2H vs. Djokovic was in Fed's favor. Murray's H2H was on equal footing. Had it not been for clay, Nadal would never have such a big lead over Fed, for which Nadal fans should be thankful. Before people try to put down Fed with the H2H talk, they should check to see how many times Nadal beat Fed on surfaces other than clay. However, it's obvious that the H2H is the only stat that the Nadal fans can harp on, and we the Fed fans, should be mindful of that fact instead of wasting energy defending Fed, coz it's all they've got to hang onto. Jealousy is rampant on these threads from the three factions.

Some are extremely happy djokovic won Toronto coz they would love for him to take the No.1 ranking from Fed. If Fed had played and won toronto, with the other three out of the draw, could you imagine the nastiness we'd be reading, e.g., he didn't beat a top 4 player, and had a cake-walk of a draw. Fed took time off to rest, and he's condemned for not playing. He just can't win.

People here, can talk freely of their dislike for Fed, but Fed fans have to walk on egg shells, if they want to avoid an argument, and anything that can be interpreted as dislike for the other three. Sometimes I write comments disputing some statements, but then erase same, coz it's not worth my energy to argue. I read the comments from other sites, one of which is put down here a lot, yet, I see some of the posters who ridicule that site post there and suck up big time to the Fed fans. The stuff they write here, they'd never state on some sites, especially that one. People can change their screen names, but it's not that difficult to detect their writing style, coz some mention the same stuff here as they do elsewhere, so it's easy to put the pieces together, especially Mem's long-winded rants. While she pretends to be all business here, she's anything but, elsewhere. It's so funny and yet sad, that some people are so two-faced.

scoretracker , 8/13/12 10:08 AM


I don't need to, the numbers speak for themselves. Nearly 82% match winning percentage over 14 years, remarkable.

brothdog , 8/13/12 10:12 AM


^^^^The numbers do speak for themselves.

Rafa has 82.7 match winning % and Federer has 81.6

That's some talking.

Nuff said.

nadline , 8/13/12 12:12 PM


^^^Considering Federer is never injured!

nadline , 8/13/12 12:13 PM


"If Fed had played and won toronto, with the other three out of the draw, could you imagine the nastiness we'd be reading, e.g., he didn't beat a top 4 player, and had a cake-walk of a draw. Fed took time off to rest, and he's condemned for not playing..."

Which is exactly the kind of thing fed himself suggests when he isn't in the mix ie the Asian swing last year, which he wisely avoided after the crushing he got the year before by Andy, & yet had the absolute temerity to say it didn't count due to his deciding not to play. The nerve of him.

"Murray's FO 2011 draw was a joke..."

Indeed it was & i said so at the time, but i think you'll find that the reason people don't go on about Andy getting easy draws is bar the occasional lucky draw like the FO, he never normally gets them. I mean duh. He gets, in fact, the hardest draws of the top 4 players and that is the norm for him.
Federer is magically lucky every time it seems....

Twinge , 8/13/12 1:39 PM


^^ And for the record I don't hate Roger federer. hates a very strong word. In fact I was vaguely a fed fan before I discovered Murray, nothing fanatical however. Just around Wimbledon.
But if it walks like a duck & quacks like one it probably is one.
I mean how much more evidence do you need?

Twinge , 8/13/12 1:52 PM


I don't need to, the numbers speak for themselves. Nearly 82% match winning percentage over 14 years, remarkable.
brothdog , 8/13/12 10:12 AM

If you believe that the numbers speak for themselves, then based on their match winning %, Rafa is the GOAT.

Rafa........ - 82.7%
Roger........ -81.6%
Laver.........- 79.5%
Sampras....- 77.4%

nadline , 8/13/12 1:54 PM


...but it's not that difficult to detect their writing style, coz some mention the same stuff here as they do elsewhere, so it's easy to put the pieces together, especially Mem's long-winded rants....

I don't know who this `Mem` bird is, but you need to take a step back for a moment.
For when it comes to `long winded rants` you're in a class of your own here.

Twinge , 8/13/12 1:58 PM


Haha...Federer played nearly 1051 matches and his win-loss 858-193...in denominator 858/1051 = (81.6 %) is huge..it's very tough to maintain...

where as nadal only played 705 matches with W-L 583-122...here 705 number in denominator matters more.....

chenna21 , 8/13/12 2:40 PM


Jimmy connors has carrier W-L 1242-277 with winning 81.8 % ....it's too huge no body can break this even federer also....

chenna21 , 8/13/12 2:44 PM


^^^Stop splitting hairs. On these figures, Rafa is the GOAT.


nadline , 8/13/12 3:42 PM


All of the top players are outstanding... can't help it if we here in Colorado USA are amazed at the FED. As far as rigging of the draw.... there is way to much scrutiny for that to occur... ever... heads would role and the sport of tennis would be injured.

Vitality , 8/13/12 5:06 PM


^^What all of Colorado are amazed at the fed?
Interesting.
As to the head rolling thing, no, the people that are doing the rigging are the people that either call the shots or do the head rolling themselves.
But yes if it was ever proved with actual evidence it would be a disaster for those involved.
And pretty bad for those that benefit too.

Twinge , 8/13/12 5:32 PM


^^I mean `alledgedly` of course ;)

Twinge , 8/13/12 5:36 PM


So for the record (most of which I've said many times) Fed IMO ...

- not humble and does not always credit other players (this is a minor annoyance, entertaining and colorful part of his personality which actually helps him I believe)
- don't hate him
- have great respect for his game
- will definitely miss him if he ever retires
- the GOAT (slams, longevity, slam SF/QF appearances, #1 at 31, hair, no perspiration)
- I LOVE his game (blind not to)

What annoys me?
- Fedbot fans (minority of Fed fans)
- lack of competition from 2003-07 (Fed is better today than during TMF, just ask his coach)
- fawning media
- obviously fixed draws, preferred scheduling
- Wimbledon 2009 man bag and the '15' he had in said man bag and wore seconds after beating Roddick

Conspirator , 8/13/12 5:56 PM


^^^^
"not always" should read "rarely" (no one should always be expected to credit other player)

Conspirator , 8/13/12 6:01 PM


Conspirator@5.56 "if he ever retires."
#reelingfromthatbombshell

deuce , 8/13/12 6:14 PM


the GOAT (slams, longevity, slam SF/QF appearances, #1 at 31, hair, no perspiration)
Conspirator, 8/13/12 5:56 PM

Now I've heard it all, Fed is GOAT because of his hair? Yuck........that chest hair is ugly, imho........

As for him not perspiring, in my experience people (especially those who engage in high impact sporting activity) who do not perspire smell bad.......

rafaisthebest , 8/13/12 6:24 PM


RTIB, haha, chest/back, toe and "other" hair excepted of course!!!

As far as smell, well, that's not a GOAT-factor IMO and my TV is not 4-D smell capable!

Conspirator , 8/13/12 6:47 PM


It's not hatred Fedfans have for Rafa, it's fear. They know that when they meet, the result is on Rafa's racquet and wish he would just disappear so that Fed can reign supreme again.

nadline , 8/13/12 6:54 PM


Scrutiny of the draws. I have seen some draws actually televised with the Director reaching into a bin to pull names, call them out loud and enter them into a computer screen that is projected on the board and streamed to TVS. Hard to call that rigged..

Vitality , 8/13/12 7:02 PM


^^^^and we can smell the fear, nasty pong that fear..........

rafaisthebest , 8/13/12 7:03 PM


Vitality, 8/13/12 7:02 PM,

Not all draws are completely rigged! Mostly just slams or Masters 1000 with Fed there.

However, a 'director' can call out any name he/she wishes to - doesn't mean there is an actual name on the ball. The balls are probably just numbered anyways.

I call the quality of the scrutiny into question, Your Honour!

Some director, calling out names (as he sees fit). Some scrutiny!

#eyeroll

You want answers?
I think I'm entitled.
You want answers?!
I want the truth!

Conspirator , 8/13/12 7:14 PM


Hey lets ask the editor of the mag to research how the draws take place. A little research might go a long way to determine the truth? Yes?

As far as fear, no fear here, respect for all the players, just love a great match, which they with great effort almost always give those of us resting in a arm chair, sipping wine... while they toil. Can't help having favorites.

Vitality , 8/13/12 7:18 PM


http://www.livestream.com/playthegame_dshs/video?clipId=pla_44809e94-a a04-46c7-9f1e-35b212ba9d46

or, more easily (no need to hunt down and kill inserted spaces),

http://tinyurl.com/blavguq

#BusinessAsUsual

Conspirator , 8/13/12 7:35 PM


What's Fed's W/L % when he played 705 matches? I bet it's much worse than Rafa's. Only Borg can match or even was better than Rafa's.

luckystar , 8/13/12 7:35 PM


Federer winning percentage is increasing at the year end of every year since 2002..

he struggled alot during starting 4 years and at the end of 2002 had winning % 62 but now it has been reached 81.6...He can reach no. 2/3 spot in one/two year.

mani4Tennis , 8/13/12 8:30 PM


Thanks conspirator, ritb posted this link on another thread a couple of weeks ago, I don't think Vitality saw it. It might get him/her thinking about the case for rigged draws.

nadline , 8/13/12 8:32 PM


lucky
federer's w-l after 705 matches....567-138....80.43% that's way better than what u expected na...:)

chenna21 , 8/13/12 8:40 PM


More on draw fixing:

Our basis assumption is that the ITF and Nike wanted Federer-Nadal finals at the slams. It are the slams that attracts the wider audience. Tennis hadn't always had a wide audience. Many will remember the dark years of the early 2000's, even till 2004, with lot of empty seats at the slams, even in big matches. Tennis wasn't very popular. It was the Federer-Nadal rivalry, hyped into heaven, that really started to attract lots of people. A rivalry that really bursted out in 2006/2007 with consecutive finals the French Open and Wimbledon. There wasn't really much of a problem to get a final back then, with Federer and Nadal at number one and two respectively, so automitically in opposite sides of the draw. There wasn't a single player who could really rival the two. Only at hardcourt slams there was the problem of Nadal not getting to the final, losing to lower players, but this couldn't be helped.

2007 "unfortunately" saw the rise of Novak Djokovic. During the year he got a few wins over Federer and Nadal (all on hardcourts). On clay and at the slams, they still had him very much under control. But he had proven to be the biggest threat so far to their duopoly. The last thing the ITF and Nike wanted, after putting so much effort in promoting Federer and Nadal, was this guy to spoil the party. After all he came from a country that most of the rest of the world looked negatively upon because of what happened there in the 90's, he had a bad haircut, and wore even worse Addidas clothes. They didn't want this guy in the finals instead of the more glamourous looking Federer and Nadal, with the great Nike clothes. What would the fate of tennis be if this guy ever became the top dog.

http://www.606v2.com/t31347p150-draw-fixing-hypothesis-at-gran d-slams-2008-2012


I've always maintained that it was Rafa who save tennis. As this article says, there were many empty seat even at slams in the weak era until Nadal appeared on the scene.

nadline , 8/13/12 9:21 PM


No, he's much worse off. By the time Rafa lost 138 matches, he would have won more than 567 matches, probably around 630 matches.

luckystar , 8/13/12 9:23 PM


I've always maintained that it was Rafa who SAVED tennis. As this article says, there were many empty seat even at slams in the weak era until Nadal appeared on the scene.

nadline , 8/13/12 9:24 PM


Doctors/athletics are getting caught in dopes cases and no coincidence most of them are from spain and i've always maintained that one spanish tennis posterboy is RUINING the tennis.

KMA , 8/13/12 9:34 PM


^^^Just a reactionary troll bait post in a desperate attempt to provoke.

#PleaseDontFeedTheTrolls
#LOL

Conspirator , 8/13/12 9:44 PM


"Only at hardcourt slams there was the problem of Nadal not getting to the final, losing to lower players, but this couldn't be helped."
In other words, according to this theory, the draws were rigged to help Fed AND Nadal get to the final but even an easy draw couldn't help Nadal get to a final. Whoops!

chr18 , 8/13/12 9:58 PM


^^^Nadal was very, very young Fed had been through that phase pf losing early in tournaments.

nadline , 8/13/12 10:14 PM


chr18, dod you notice this bit:

" Many will remember the dark years of the early 2000's, even till 2004, with lots of empty seats at the slams, even in big matches. Tennis wasn't very popular. It was the Federer-Nadal rivalry, hyped into heaven, that really started to attract lots of people."

nadline , 8/13/12 10:17 PM


Federer is very lucky that he is 5 years older than Rafa otherwise he would have had about 2 slams to his name, as he would have met Rafa on grass and h/c slam finals sooner.

nadline , 8/13/12 10:19 PM


OFF TOPIC
This is not the first time of posting on this subject, and I have also sent emails about the problem, but we still have out of date Rankings and a Tournament calender that stops at 16th July 2012 :-(((

If the back office at TT is unable or unwilling to maintain this data then the categories should be removed from the menu bar - along with the non-existent Statistics.

ed251137 , 8/13/12 11:29 PM


nadline,
How many HC finals of GS has Nadal made it to at the age of 26? 4 and winning 2. I think Fed had already won 7 by that age.

chr18 , 8/14/12 1:24 AM


^^^^

#ApplesAndOranges
#TMF
#TheMeekField
#No2RankedHaasNoSlamFi nalAppearance

Conspirator , 8/14/12 1:31 AM


Like KMA, I also have doubts, but it's about a 30/31 year old. I also realized that some countries have more advanced medical/pharmaceutical science, even better than Spain. More reasons to have my suspicions.

Still, doping is off topic here, so I'm not going to dwell on it, but I always maintain that I've my doubts about some 30-31 yo who doesn't even sweat when playing tennis. Strange!

luckystar , 8/14/12 3:11 AM


Oh.. But unlike KMA, I think that poster boy from Spain actually saved tennis with his arrival at the scene. Prior to his arrival, tennis was losing it's appeal, with only a ballerina like player dominating and tennis viewing actually suffered.

Oh with the arrival of Nole and then Murray, things get even more interesting now, thank goodness.

luckystar , 8/14/12 3:22 AM


The man is the personification of cool that is all!

chr18 , 8/14/12 3:35 AM


Rafa is still 26 now, and there're two more chances at the hard court slams. Do bear in mind Rafa has suffered from injuries and he has missed an AO in 2006. Also right now there're Nole and Murray at the hard court slams. From 2008, we saw guys like Nole and Murray making the hard court slam finals regularly, other than Fedal. In 2008, Nole at AO, Murray at USO; in 2009 Delpo won at USO; in 2010, Murray made the AO final and Nole the USO. In 2011 and up till AO 2012, Nole made the AOs and the USO finals.

Who during 2004-2007 made the hard court slam finals regularly, other than Fed? Seriously, Fed didn't even have anyone who could make the hard court slam finals and challenged him regularly there. Rafa was only an upstart back then, barely 20-21, and was still learning his trade on the hard courts.

luckystar , 8/14/12 3:44 AM


Still very questionable if Rafa will be fit enough to play USO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60eoc-SKtZE&feature=em-uploadema il

ed251137 , 8/14/12 4:49 AM


Fed concerned by Nadal's injury...
http://www.espnstar.com/tennis/us-open/news/detail/item838715/Federe r-concerned-by-Nadal-injury/

RMadhu , 8/14/12 7:58 AM


Ed, I guess as much about Rafa with his injury. I hope he doesn't rush to come back but takes his time to fully recover. A fully fit Rafa is awesome, like in his FO and Wimbledon'08, his AO'09 and Wimbledon and USO'10. I feel this long rest is essential for his career going forward, he's done enough IMO to secure a top four or five ranking position, so even if he comes back only next year, it won't be too difficult for him, and for the other top four guys as well, when they have to meet only from QF onwards.

luckystar , 8/14/12 8:36 AM


http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=19171&zon eid=25

"I was going to write him and check on him because I can't believe he's been out that long," Federer told reporters in Cincinnati."

Note to Fed: Here is how sincerity goes.

No need to announce to the world that you were going to write to Rafa, just write to him, y'know what I mean? You do have his e-mail address, don't you? You could also text him. You do have his mobile number, no?

So you are concerned now, how? Do you believe he is injured now? You didn't before, you said as much..............

Do us all a favour and just shut up about Rafa and play, really. You are so fake you make Kim Kardashian seem cherubic.

rafaisthebest , 8/14/12 9:32 AM


^^^

ritb,

You just made my day! Too funny! :)

Nativenewyorker , 8/14/12 9:56 AM


Exactly RITB, he's never injured. So his longevity is over every surface for a longer number of years. Which makes it more impressive. It's easy to have an 82.7% winning percentage if you win all the clay tournaments then take half of the season off! You can't affect your win loss record sat doing nothing, if Rafa was fit enough to compete in every tournament every year his win/loss percentage would not be as high as he has'nt won a non clay tournament since 2010. He just sits them out! Good thinking. Fed has won on grass, clay, hard and indorr this year already. Proving his all court game. Rafa, lets wait for clay 2013 to start to win another title.

brothdog , 8/14/12 10:11 AM


This is what RF said about nadal ...it's better to post complete paragraph..then people will decide weather it's genuine or fake..

"I was going to write him and check on him because I can't believe he's been out that long. I thought the Olympics, okay, that's fine. That's a personal choice. I thought for sure we would see him in Toronto, but now he missed Toronto and Cincinnati. It's very surprising, because it was nothing that we heard of prior to the injury. He played so well on clay, and then actually seemed fine at Wimbledon. He had more time by losing earlier at Wimbledon. So it came as big surprise now, these two pull outs for me. Even the Olympics, too. So I'm sad for him. I hope he'll be back for the US Open."

chenna21 , 8/14/12 10:32 AM


Brothdog Fed hasn't won on 'clay' this year.

nadline , 8/14/12 11:08 AM


He won Madrid, it was a 'clay' court masters 1000. Just because it was'nt red and did'nt favour your beloved Rafa does not mean it was'nt a clay court tournament. Maybe if Rafa had have played and not moaned all week he could have won that too. Get on with it it's the same for everyone.

brothdog , 8/14/12 11:17 AM


Goodness brothdog, may I know how many hard court tournaments are there each year? Hard courts is one of Fed's fav surface, so he needed all the hard courts to get his W/L % up there. If you apply that kind of logic against Rafa, ie him winning mostly on clay, you've to apply the same logic to Fed on the hard courts, do double standard here.

The fact that clay make up 30-35% of the tours, yet Rafa can win most of them plus a good number of hard and grass tournaments to get his W/L % up there above Fed's, really say something as to how good Rafa is. To say that Rafa was relying on winning on surfaces that make up 30-35 % of the tours while Fed was relying on winning on surfaces that make up 60% of the tours is really laughable. Had the tours be made up of 50% clay and 50% hard courts, just imagine the W/L % Rafa would have, and for that matter, how Fed's W/L% would have gone down!

Also when was the last time Fed won a hard court slam? Or a clay court slam? I see brothdog here boasting about Fed winning on all surfaces, 10 clay titles in 14 years, hardly anything impressive for someone whose supporters want to acknowledge as goat.

luckystar , 8/14/12 11:31 AM


Not bad considering he is playing in the same Era as the greatest clay courter ever. Fed only plays 3 maybe 4 clay events a season. He is the only man in history to win 10 + titles on every surface indoor hard, hard, grass and clay. There is more competiton from other top players on the hrd courts. They are onvak and Muzzas favorite surfaces too.

brothdog , 8/14/12 11:37 AM


So? Didn't Rafa compete against Nole and Murray too?? Do notice, Fed won majority of his hard court slams and Masters during 2004-2007, when Nole and Murray weren't even out of their teens yet to challenge him!!

Hello, please take into consideration Fed had spent a few more years, four to six years, in the tours before the three younger guys came along, of course he had more time to accumulate his titles. Let's see how many those three guys could win when they reach Fed's no. of years in the tours.

Also, please get your info right! Rafa hardly sit out any tournament unless he's injured. In 2008, he played 12 hard court tournaments, same as Fed. In 2009, even when he had injury break, he still played 12 hard court tournaments vs Fed's 10. In 2010, he played 11 vs Fed's 12; in 2011 he played 10 vs Fed's 11. How's Rafa sitting out the hard court tournaments, may I know??

So Fed lost on clay because he lost to the greatest clay court player. Can I say Fed is not that great on hard courts, that he lost to Rafa, Nole and Murray many times in the Masters, and to Rafa/Nole in the hard court slams? Also, Fed had lost on clay to Volandri, Stepanek, Nole, Stan, Montanes, Gulbis, Sod, Gasquet, Melzer, other than to Rafa, so it's not like Rafa is the only one to beat Fed on clay.

luckystar , 8/14/12 11:57 AM


my dear Lucky. You are beating your head against a brick wall. Selective memory is the order of the day when it comes to talking up TMF.

ed251137 , 8/14/12 12:31 PM


ed251137 = Jealous Hater :/

Twinge , 8/14/12 12:56 PM


Fed's comments on RAFA:-

Embodiment of good values

sabs , 8/14/12 1:22 PM


lol.........thanks for the tip Twinge

ed251137 , 8/14/12 1:29 PM


brothdog, Madrid was such a normal clay tournament that the ATP has banned blue clay.

nadline , 8/14/12 4:43 PM


Not long before brothdog tells us Nole is a hard-court specialist. After all, Nole hadn't won a title off hard-courts recently until, you guessed it, hard-court season came around in Toronto!

rafaisthebest , 8/14/12 5:13 PM


Doctors/athletics are getting caught in dopes cases and no coincidence most of them are from spain and i've always maintained that one spanish tennis posterboy is RUINING the tennis.
KMA, 8/13/12 9:34 PM

The only banned substance that we are certain of that was RUINING the tennis is the blue clay that a certain Lindt poster boy needed to win Madrid.

#IllegalSubstances
#TskTsk
#RunAwayKMAPoemOfTheDay

Conspirator , 8/14/12 5:31 PM


Do us all a favour and just shut up about Rafa and play, really. You are so fake you make Kim Kardashian seem cherubic.
rafaisthebest, 8/14/12 9:32 AM

ROFL! Spot on RITB!

jean , 8/14/12 5:31 PM


@Conspirator, you are on fire!

rafaisthebest , 8/14/12 5:48 PM


Hahahaha! @pseudofed beat Fed to it....................

Here is the letter written by @pseudofed to Rafa:

http://pseudofedblog.com/2012/08/14/my-letter-to-rafa/

Cho ice quote:

"Following much thought I decided to write to Rafa in the end. I thought it would be right to share My letter to him with you all."

Priceless.

rafaisthebest , 8/14/12 7:32 PM


Here's a copy of my letter to Nadal :
"Good luck for the Golden Swing. Hope you're ready in time."

chr18 , 8/14/12 8:01 PM


^^^^you mean the Golden Swing in 2018, don't you? Admit it, you're hoping Rafa doesn't come back till then.......

Hehehehe!!

rafaisthebest , 8/14/12 8:20 PM


Well, for the fact, no Fed fan fears Rafa. We knew that just like Fed found Rafa as his nemesis, so would Rafa find his own the other day. It was just a matter of time before that happened. Believe it or not, it's the jealousy part in the minds of the fans of the 2 parties that get the better of them. And even after so many years they are hell bent on demeaning the other guy's achievements.

As far as popularity of tennis is concerned, I know thousands of guy who started watching tennis when a phenomenon named Federer took the scene. Many didnt even noticed Nadal until 2006 FO, when he denied Fed many clay titles. Then a wave of Rafa fans started and more fans joined in. Then there was their rivalry that brought in more fans. Since then many have flipped their loyalities too. Some Rafa fans became Fed fans, and some Fed fans became Rafa fans. Many then lost interest in 2010 when it was just Rafa, and more followed the suite in 2011, when Fed and Rafa were overtaken by Nole (no offense for his fans. I find him rather more entertaining than Rafa). So it would be hard to credit just one of them for generating more following of the game. It takes two hands to clap. Similarly, tennis needed the two of them to pitch up its fever among the audience.

abhirf , 8/15/12 8:00 AM


^^^ Nole has his own followers, so the Rafa/Nole rivalry has it's own following. Nole has done enough with his phenomenol season last year to attract enough followings. Both Fed and Rafa have their own followings, so do Nole. Even if Fed retires and out go his followers, there will be others attracted to tennis especially when players from their own countries become more successful in tennis, eg Raonic of Canada. Murray has also won many supporters in his home country now that he has won Olympics Gold and came so close to winning Wimbledon and left his heart and spirit out there on the tennis court.

No one is indispensable in tennis, be it Fed or Rafa. There'll always be new players and new followers, though favorites will remain favorites in the hearts of their followers.

luckystar , 8/15/12 8:31 AM


lucky@8.31. Totally agree with you :)
I fell asleep when Sampras was dominating and woke up with a bang when young Rogie beat him at Wimbledon. I loved Fed in his pomp but that gradually got boring as he dominated everything. Then Rafa burst onto the scene and took it to Fed and suddenly tennis was interesting again.
At first the Fedal rivalry was marvellous, then, when Fedal just about won every slam going, true to form, I got a trifle Fedup!
Then, last year, Nole stepped up and leapt over Fedal, a tremendous achievement. Now, of course, I hope Andy can actually play as he should be and not be intimidated in slams.
Variety is the spice of life, as they say :)

deuce , 8/15/12 8:44 AM


@lucky, Well, I do know that every player has his own following. I just brought about the fact that still at the moment it's Fed and Rafa fans in the majority and dominate the tennis community. Nole's fan base expanded after his last year heroics. I hope same would happen for Murray. I just addressed to the fact that it was not just Roger or Rafa alone who generated the audience. Soon they will vanish from the scenario and some other guys will take their place and carry forward the game. But yeah, their fans will always remember them.

abhirf , 8/15/12 9:02 AM


abhirf: small correction: Rafa's fan base surged in 2005 when he beat Roger in the SF and went on to win the title. Nole joined the party in 2007 and Andy came into his own in 2008.

I dont know what makes you think that fans swapped sides or that tennis lost fans when Rafa was on a roll in 2010 and then Nole in 2011. Unless, that is, you are referring to the groupies who jump on the bandwagon to support the flavour of the month and then disappear: they can hardly be called tennis fans.

ed251137 , 8/15/12 10:22 AM


Exactly Ed. I don't think many fans switch sides, Rafa fans will always be Rafa fans unless they're those bandwagon-ners. Rafa and Fed are with totally different personalities and game styles, I love Rafa but will never warm up to Fed, simple as that. I believe most fans feel loyalty to their favorite players and won't change side that readily.

luckystar , 8/15/12 10:41 AM


The only thing that makes me jealous of Roger is that he manages to fool a lot of people into thinking he is the GOAT, when he plays mediocre tennis most of the time.

Yes, I am jealous of the blind loyalty he gets from a large part of the tennis media.

nadline , 8/15/12 11:12 AM


Mediocre tennis that has got him back on top of the pile at 31. In the 'strong' era, when Fed was supposed to drop out the top 5 this year. He continues to prove his doubters wrong and i for one love it! He will never win another slam with Rafa and Nole and Muzza around blah, blah, blah. He will never be world No1 again, he's finished, blah, blah, blah! Embrace his final few years nadline is my advice. When he retires tennis will lose it's most influential player ever. The reason he gets 'blind loyalty' from a large part of the media is simple, he's the greatest ever.

brothdog , 8/15/12 1:04 PM


He continues to prove his doubters wrong and i for one love it! He will never win another slam with Rafa and Nole and Muzza around blah, blah, blah. He will never be world No1 again, he's finished, blah, blah, blah!
brothdog , 8/15/12 1:04 PM


I hear echos of what is being said about Rafa right now.

Embracing Federer is not on my list of things to do.

nadline , 8/15/12 1:12 PM


- Wimbledon 2009 man bag and the '15' he had in said man bag and wore seconds after beating Roddick

Conspirator, 8/13/12 5:56 PM


Whoa, do you REALLY think Federer told Nike "write that 15, I will finish Andy on Sunday" ?

Think before you post man. Blame Nike for doing that. It's all about marketing. Not about Federer making any decision.

Emiliano55 , 8/15/12 3:46 PM


"The only thing that makes me jealous of Roger is that he manages to fool a lot of people into thinking he is the GOAT, when he plays mediocre tennis most of the time."

I think it's fine to dislike someone for his personality or style, but saying Federer plays 'mediocre tennis most of the time' betrays jealousy. Obviously, Federer plays well to very well most of the time, which is why he consistently makes QF and usually SF of Slams and 1000s on all surfaces, even up to age 31 in the 'strong era'.

Being no. 1 (or anywhere in the top 5) is proof you play very well most of the time - it's a mark of consistency. Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray play very well most of the time too.
That's why they've all won at least a major title this year (I'll count the Olympics in the same level as a Slam because it was so important to Murray and he dominated everyone including Federer).

Anyway, such comments are what turn all these threads into pointless personality wars. Hopefully Nadal is ready for the US Open.

Bharata , 8/15/12 4:07 PM


Bharata, 8/15/12 4:07 PM

Agreed. Nice post.

Emiliano55, 8/15/12 3:46 PM

To answer your question, No I don't nor did I say that in the quote you extracted from my post.

However, I do believe that, as part of his Nike deal, he does have input and veto powers and, as such, had no problem with and agreed to wear it. It's a bit annoying but adds colour to the game at the same time.

Trust me, I always think before I post. You might do the same, yes? :)

#PleaseReadMoreCarefully

Conspirator , 8/15/12 4:32 PM


^^^

#@Pseudofed

Conspirator , 8/15/12 4:33 PM


Conspirator,
You don't know anything about marketing, brands and contracts. You should read, investigate before post. Seriously. You think just becasue someone tells you "you are on fire" you can came here bashing anyone ?

Well, I'm sorry to tell you but I'm older than you and I know much more than you about contracts. I'm also pretty sure I know much more about tennis, since indeed I play the game and I'm not a childish blind fan of any player like most of the members here are.

Federer doesn't have any power on Nike decision. He is a Nike slave, and he gets paid for it. You get that point ? You get it, right ? I invite you to investigate on this, read. It isn't that difficult, isnt't ? You should be stating things without researching.

Nadal also is a Nike slave, and that's why he stopped using the sleeveless Tshirts even tho he didn't want to.

This happens with all contracts. Not just these 2.

#WriteWithKnowledge

Emiliano55 , 8/15/12 5:19 PM


*shouldn't be

Emiliano55 , 8/15/12 5:22 PM


Emiliano55: that's an interesting point but, in reality, don't you think that Fed has a lot more clout than to be a "Nike slave." He's incredibly wealthy too, doesn't need their money. In fact I'd think Nike needs him a lot more than he needs Nike.

deuce , 8/15/12 5:29 PM


http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2012-08-15/10466.php

tj600 , 8/15/12 5:42 PM


decue, Federer has to shave his beard EVERY MORNING just becasue of his Gillete contract.

Believe me, the numbers that these companies handle are HUGE. And tennis stars, no matter how much money they have, agrees on being "slaves" of them.

Research if you don't believe me. It's really incredible that this happens with these guys that ears so much money, but it happens. Believe it or not.

Emiliano55 , 8/15/12 5:46 PM


Emiliano55, admit am very surprised. I suppose the only way of showing their disapproval would be to change sponsors once the contract ends. Gillette condition is understandable though. Lol would not do for someone with two day stubble to be "the face of Gillette."

deuce , 8/15/12 5:52 PM


Emiliano55: Bearing in mind his dark colouring and general hirsuteness it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't have to shave TWICE a day to avoid the 5 o'clock shadow when he is in the public eye. Nor do I think the designer stubble look adopted by some players would be his thing.

ed251137 , 8/15/12 6:43 PM


You think just becasue someone tells you "you are on fire" you can came here bashing anyone ?

Emiliano55, 8/15/12 5:19 PM

Touch a nerve per chance?

Again you assume my motivation (again incorrectly).

Where did I bash you? Was it the please read more carefully or asking you to think before you post simply echoing your own advice. Touchy much?

You must be pretty old and have an incredible knowledge of tennis and business!!! I had no idea!!!

With your superior knowledge, maybe you would be so kind to provide me with some reference(s) so I am not searching from scratch because nothing is as blak and white as some would have you to believe. There is always grey. Devil is in the details as they say. Not all contracts are the same.

I don't believe that Federer would sell out on his image so easily with absolute zero control. He would be a desperate fool to do so (which I don't believe he is).

People are "slaves" to a contract only as much as they AGREE to be slaves depending on the stated terms of the contract and only after they sign their name on the line.

Forgive me but I find it hard to believe that Fed would shave his head if Gillette told him to or would have to wear GOAT on the back of his jacket if Nike insisted and he didn't agree.


#CalmDown



Conspirator , 8/15/12 6:44 PM


I'm also pretty sure I know much more about tennis, since indeed I play the game and I'm not a childish blind fan of any player like most of the members here are.

Emiliano55, 8/15/12 5:19 PM

The first part of this statement and pretty much all of your post contradicts the second part of this statement.

BTW, you don't have a monopoly on age or playing tennis.

Sorry to hear Rafa is out so this prediction is very, very easy now. Nole/Muzz in the same half at USO.

#Childish
#Blind
#Fedbot

Conspirator , 8/15/12 7:10 PM


#VeryMuchAfraidYou'reRight :(

deuce , 8/15/12 8:03 PM


Most of the models you see in the Gillette ads have no chest hair. Surprised Gillette didn't force Fed to comply. Maybe Fed had an anti-wax clause in his contract. LOL.

#AntiManbagClause

Conspirator , 8/15/12 8:14 PM


Haters....

#NID

bleck , 8/15/12 8:16 PM


@ed, 10:22am, Well, as far as I know, 2006 was a more pivotal year for Rafa after which he became a brand name.
As far as fans switching loyalties are concerned, some changed over a period of time after watching their game. But, yup, majority of them can hardly be called tennis lovers.

abhirf , 8/15/12 8:17 PM


@Conspirator, you're on fire!

#giggle.

rafaisthebest , 8/15/12 8:18 PM


Conspirator:

I don't have anything to give you as reference because I've studied these kind of things.

You know what a contract is, right ? Once you sign that you will be the Nike 'image' and that you will be wearing anything they put on you, you convert into a slave of them.
Blaming Federer for that 15 in 2009 shows how you states without having any idea of how contracts are. Yeah, of course Nike 'asks' certaing things to their sponsored players, but they are not "really asking"... you understand what I mean ?

Do you think Rafa wanted to use normal T-shirts ? Do you think Delpo wanted to do that as well ? Do you think Roger wants to shave his beard twice a day ?

This is the dark side of sponsors and contracts, and it is like it is. Yeah, is surprising, indeed.

I can stand this stupid battle you guys use to have between Roger and Rafa, but please, if you are going to bash one of the two, don't use no-sense kind of stuff as reference.

Emiliano55 , 8/15/12 8:18 PM


Speaking of Rafa now. I'm reading some journalist tweets that are in Cincy right now and they say that Rafa may lose the rest of the year.

Now, I'm surprised there is no mention at all on what the injury really is. It is a total mystery.

Weird.

Emiliano55 , 8/15/12 8:30 PM


^^^^we heard you twice the first time, why repeat yourself on another thread?

rafaisthebest , 8/15/12 8:50 PM



Now, I'm surprised there is no mention at all on what the injury really is. It is a total mystery.

Weird.

Emiliano55, 8/15/12 8:30 PM


Rest assured, you're not the only one in the dark, so's Fed...........suggest you prod Fed into actually writing to Rafa and asking him what is ailing him.......sure beats THINKING about writing to him.............then, finally, the 2 of you will know what everybody else knows.................Rafa has a knee injury! No mystery there.............

rafaisthebest , 8/15/12 8:59 PM


^^^^we heard you twice the first time, why repeat yourself on another thread?
rafaisthebest, 8/15/12 8:50 PM

I put this here in the first place, then I discovered there was a new topic about it, so I paste it there also.

What's the problem with that ? A lot of users copy and paste between topics.

And this is not just tendinitis, Rafa has something else. I'm quite surprised there is no mention on what he has. Its weird.

And please, stop acting like a child and talking to me as if I were a Fedfan. I'm not a fanboy of any player and I don't like this ridiculous Fed vs Rafa game you guys play on here.

I'm actually tired of writing my opinons about certain things and receiving these kind of aggressive and childish feedback.

Guys, there's people that enjoy tennis without being a Rafaboy or a Fedboy here. I'm one of those. Please show some respect please, although we are just a few.

Emiliano55 , 8/15/12 9:14 PM


Heeey! Welcome back bleck! No, not a h8er, that's too simple and easy. Fed's the best ever and I will miss him if/when he ever fades away. I believe he is continuing to play his best tennis. I've always contented that he is never easy to beat in a tournament (as evident in his consistently deep runs).

Emiliano55. Rafa's not dumb and recognizes the importance of image and was advised to polish his image by dropping the pirate look to broaden his image and increase his endorsement opportunities. So I fully believe that he was not a slave to that choice. He wasn't forced to by a contract or by Nike.

A contract is only as restrictive as the terms within. Those terms are negotiated prior to signing. So Fed agreed to whatever he locked himself into which wasn't to be 'forced' to carry a manbag or to wear a '15' printed prior to his win.

#AbsenceMakesTheHeartGrowFonder
#Evian
#FedererIsGOAT
#Cmon Muzz
#VamosRafa

Conspirator , 8/15/12 9:17 PM


@Emiliano55, you're on fire!

rafaisthebest , 8/15/12 9:23 PM


I'm actually tired of writing my opinons about certain things and receiving these kind of aggressive and childish feedback.

Emiliano55, 8/15/12 9:14 PM

I agree it is tiring. Maybe it's your delivery perhaps. When your first post on a thread includes a comment like 'Think before you post man,' which is pretty condescending then you are doing no better than what you are accusing others of doing.

#TwoWayStreet
#GetWellRafa

Conspirator , 8/15/12 9:23 PM


^^^^

#giggle.

rafaisthebest , 8/15/12 9:31 PM


Please, @Conspirator, you're killing me..............

rafaisthebest , 8/15/12 9:33 PM


http://tinyurl.com/cwzwu2b

Have a look yourself or simply google Federer sardinia and select images.

Looks like Fed is in breach of contract.

I've been reduced to a discussion on whiskers.

#StubbleWars
#Shhh,GeniusWithFacialHair
#DontTellGillet te
#GetAShave
#Misrepresentation
#ContractNullAndVoid
#NonComposMe ntis
#CutItOutRTIB

Conspirator , 8/15/12 9:43 PM


http://tinyurl.com/8zrpnv5

Help me, I can't stop!

#ReadingAndInvestigating
#WarningSomeViewersMayBeOffended
# ImSexyAndIKnowIt

Conspirator , 8/15/12 9:49 PM


Conspirator,

You are right, I apoligies to have replied to you with that "think before you post". It was quite aggressive from my side.

Sometimes I can't stand this Roger vs Nadal game that the users on here play on every darn topic. And the references that you guys use to use to compare/debate are sometimes just ridiculous. But there's no excuse to my reply, so I'm sorry for that.


Speaking about the contract. Of course Federer had to agree on that "15". What I meant is that those changes don't come from the players.

It is not that Roger said to Nike "Hey, write me a 15 on my jacket, I like it, I'm the best and i will win on sunday" like many of you would have thought.
Nike already did it before asking. It is a marketing thing, and that sells. That's all that matters. Selling. And of course they would have "asked roger" before taking the jacket to him. But what would Roger say to that ? What would you expect from him ? Go and say "No, I'm humble, I will not wear that" ? C'mon...

Basically, there's way too much childish war between Roger and Rafa on here, and sometimes the arguments are really ridiculous. You guys should have read you without being a fan and you will realize how ridiculous you sound sometimes when debating about Roger/Rafa facts.

That's all. Sorry again for my first reply, I was aggressive and that's the first thing I complain everytime I reply with my personal opinion and get aggressive/ironic feedback like If I were to play the Rafa/Roger game.

Emiliano55 , 8/15/12 9:50 PM


Hey peace Emiliano55. I also apologize to you if I offended you and that extends to anyone else here on TT (except chr18, haha, joke).

I agree with your post above. Nice.

Conspirator , 8/15/12 9:56 PM


Peace man :)

Emiliano55 , 8/15/12 9:58 PM


Conspirator: I swear you're on PEDs. Inspired picture research.

ed251137 , 8/15/12 10:12 PM


#Can'tStopLaughing

deuce , 8/15/12 10:57 PM


Fed is being slammed for saying he was thinking of writing to nadal. Amazing the guy can't even make a simple statement without being bashed to death. What's next?

scoretracker , 8/15/12 11:50 PM


Just wait and see if he wins a 6th/18th..............

chr18 , 8/15/12 11:56 PM


Chr18 yeah you are right, fedfans will be insufferable should that happen.

Hey ed/deuce, I had to stop after that last pic. What was he doing? I don't want to think about it anymore.

#ptsd
#LongLiveFed
#GOAT
#Ariola
#Nightmares

Conspirator , 8/16/12 1:19 AM


'If I win the Olympic singles I'm going to have gold body piercing right here'

ed251137 , 8/16/12 3:30 AM


Thank goodness the trophy has been redesigned. Still hideous but less like a funeral urn.

http://tinyurl.com/cpqj33h

ed251137 , 8/16/12 3:44 AM



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