TMF is back. Hopefully he can keep this going. Master class performance today.

That was indeed an OUTSTANDING performance from Federer.

one of the biggest beatdowns i have ever seen on a tennis court

Here is what a Fedfan had to say on another forum about the match,

"There is one sad effect for Federer?s fans: what Rog did today did nothing to show him a game plan to beating Rafa consistently. The game plan was to play like a God. It was not an easily repeatable effort.
Novak, on the other hand, has a gameplan that can beat Rafa consistently without him having to play at a once-a-year level."

Food for thought as Fedfans crow................................

Sour grapes much?

If Nadal is the goat,how can a declining Fed do that to him.

I think what this match proves is that Federer will continue to have Nadal's measure on courts similar to the WTF, for the simple reason that the crosscourt forehand to Federer's backhand simply doesn't work as well.

Interesting to see Federer using several plays from the past; the Annacone effect is clearly pronounced.

I don't know what to make of Nadal. Sure, he had a break, and got sick on thursday - but this seems to be more like a downward spiral post Wimbledon that he doesn't seem to be able to recover from. The fight that used to characterise his wins is lost, and I wonder whether he will be able to regain it in time for next year. Some people are going on about how he wants to be at his best for the Davis Cup, but surely you don't be at your best losing 6-0 to Federer.

Still can't take anything away from Federer. He's definitely shown us that he is as good as he's ever been, and definitely playing at a much higher level than he's shown us for the last three years. It would have a taken a special performance from anyone to beat him yesterday.

sick on sunday*

samprallica - It also feels to me like Nadal is not getting his game back.

^^ Not so sure, since I've seen his spectacular comeback in 2010. But that was post-injury and also took until the turn of the clay season for him to get back to his best. This time, injury isn't a factor, so the only thing I can put it down to is confidence.

Rafa certainly not at his best. I don't think anyone expects him to be at his best at this part of the year, on his worst surface. I've differing view from some here. If Rafa vs Fed was at the beginning of the year, say at Rotterdam Indoor courts, the outcome may be different. His energy level should be higher at the beginning of the year. Do remember he reached the final there beating Tsonga along the way, in 2009, after his exhausting AO exploit. Playing the way he played in 2009, I'm sure he'll fare better against Fed, so I disagree that Rafa will always lose to Fed on surfaces like the WTF, unless Fed can play consistently like the TMF of 2006 which I really doubt so.

Federer's says his strategy was to play close to the baseline and take Rafa's time away and it worked. Rafa needs to wake up and concentrate on his game fully dedicated and go with the schedule because whilst he is angsting about the ardous calendar he is taking his eye off the ball. Until the calendar is changed he has to go with with it.

It's no use U.Toni just shrugging his shoulders and tell Rafa it's all his fault, as a coach, he should be working on solutions.

Whilst I agree that the calendar is taxing, Rafa needs match play to get his rythm, so too much rest time out is not to his advantage.

Do not underestimate the impact on the psyche or the way they look at their matches. Fed and nadal both have felt it last night. Never before Fed could have his way with nadal the way he did last night.

Rafa fans are even claiming Fed played like a God! Godlike or like God?
Obviously thinking that it cannot be repeated. Here they assume that Fed will not reach this level again, but why not?
Since Annacone is his cioach he is gradually but slowly becomming a better player with a clear tactic and excecution of his gameplan. He his in a much better physical and mental shape then last year. He wants to push through. After this WTF he will take a two week rest before entering his major trainingsblock in december. That will be the first time since 2006/2007 he was able physically and mentally to excecute his traings regiem. I feel so good about this because it is the way the TMF used to rule the tennisworld.

With the key in hand to beat Rafa he now feels like he can actually win even on clay against Rafa.
You could say well it is the surface indoor HC. I do feel this surface suits Fed best but still the complete domination we saw yesterday was not all about the surface even on clay he would have enough on Rafa to beat him.

Luckystar, I'd agree with you except that this scoreline is unacceptable by Rafa's standards. In 2009, when he was desperately out of form, you could see he was at least fighting, pushing for it. Yesterday he just gave in completely; it was painful to see him unable to return Fed's serve properly or defend on both his wings like we know he can.

I'm hoping yesterday was just a bad day at the office and a whole lot of rust. It is likely that this is the case.

@Sienna, Federer has been saying similar things for ages about beating Rafa on clay, most notably when he bagelled Rafa at the third set of Hamburg. I think you might need to wait a bit longer before you can be so sure about whether he can beat Nadal on clay in a big match.

There is still the small matter of Djokovic left in the tournament as well.

Love the title.

Roger giving everyone a class in sportsmanship not celebrating after trashing nadal.
Had it been djokovic and he would be chest pumping like a gorilla.

Stefan Edberg Sportsmanship award, couldn't have been a more worthy winner.

P.S.: It was double joy for me yesterday as Benfica drew 2-2 against Manschester United and is now qualified for the next round in the Champions league.

Winners/UEs
Federer: 28/8
Nadal: 4/7

Nadal dind't play that bad. But 28 winners and only 8 UE. I don't care if 2008 nadal showed up Roger would have won against anybody.

This kind of display makes all the hardships federer faced worthwhile.

Go Roger!!! Congrats!!

sosueme is nowhere to be seen.

It must be a coincidence and not due to the beatdown, surely...

lol ;)

bleck
Thanks for the stats. I agree with you and would like to add that the surface is somewhat irrelevant given the beatdown Nadal faced. Even if the match would have been on clay Fed would have won.

Roger did not celebrate because he had seen something in teyes of his opponent. Some of Nadalfans have also seen it in his eyes. This is unreversable. The ghost is out of the bottle and I cannot wait for 2012 to start.

I hope on a final against Djoker. I want to see this Fed against the Djoker. It would be a fitting way if Fed could take....

record 6th WTF,
a streak of 17 matches into 2012,
deminish Djoker's year below 2 or three of his own TMF years,
take the lifelong dream away from Andy year end #3,
reestablish himself as TMF.


reastablish himself

"take the lifelong dream away from Andy year end #3" lol Sienna

I do wonder where are the posters that laughed when I said Roger would be playing for records in a lot of the coming tournaments. Guess who's laughing now...

I can't even imagine people that prefer watching matches where 20+ shots rallies are the norm over such a beautiful display of free flowing winners of both wings.

I forgot to ask...
The match took 1 hr and 1 minute... That must be a record for a Fedalmatch to conclude ?

samprallica, I think we have to leave sienna and bleck alone to gloat, however unrealistic their expectations of Fed will be.

Back to Rafa, I did mention on the other thread, that this match vs Fed ran along similar to that Tokyo final second and third sets. Rafa fought in both matches but come the deciding set he looked clueless and did not fight as hard as we expected. I would only venture to say that for both matches, he knew that playing the way he played, there's no way he could win; also he had his reservations about going all out to fight and drained his own energy, considering the fact that he had Shanghai Masters the following week at that time and DC in this coming week. If it's not what I guessed, then I see no reason why he's not fighting hard for the win. Well getting bagel on both occasions is certainly not nice, but sometimes that's just how things are.

I think Rafa will fight hard against Tsonga though, for I think he believes he can beat Tsonga, who is an incoonsistent player and Rafa can capitalize on that.

Oh I forget to add that this being a RR match, Rafa might be thinking he still would have his chances in the next match, so no point fighting till he drop dead and still lost and jeoperdized his chances against Tsonga.

Fed did serve and return well so there's nothing much Rafa could do except trying to win a game in the second set and we know he failed to do that too; that's how well Fed played in the match.

Rafa might be thinking he still would have his chances in the next match, so no point fighting till he drop dead and still lost and jeoperdized his chances against Tsonga.

I never thought Rafa ever would have such disrespect for tennis.
Are you saying he tanked this match? That would be a bitter disappointment and a utter disrespect for this tournement.

Well Tsonga sure would have to put him in his place if this was true.

If djokovic wins today he'll probably be the first in his group so expect nadal to tank against tsonga. 7-0 lurking...

nadal fans worry not come Monte Carlo (the so called 5th slam) nadal will win another title.

I actually think there is something wrong in his off court life - his body language etc is the same as in 2009 when his parents split. After reading his biography I think it has to do with Uncle Tony. I find it hard to watch him like this and this must have been another big blow to his already low confidence level. Hope I am wrong and that he will recover and return stronger in 2012.

I too will leave Sienna and Bleck to enjoy Rafa's beatdown at the hands of Fed last night. The reason Fed did not gloat is 1) he respects Rafa and knows this is not normal and 2) he knows what it feels like to be beaten in that way after suffering the same fate 6-1, 6-3, 6-0 at the hands of Rafa at the French Open final in 2008.

We all know that was not the end of Fed.

Sienna & Bleck: You've had your fun and done your celebrating so now take a leaf out of Roger's book and tone down the gloating.

Ednumbers take a look at what this thread is about. You donot tell us to stop discussing this match and Fed's state of play. We are not diminishing Rafa. Only when his fans are claiming stuff about Rafa that takes a little of the shine away from Federer.
We keep the postings within the limits of the respect Rafa has earned. But there are a little insiders jokes that are to good to pass by.

As usual, sienna is here to provoke. I've already explained in my post, if you want to twist my words, that only reflect badly on yourself. I can understand why fans of other players find some Fed fans so intolerable here. Sienna is such an example.Sienna you deserve posters like zare and sosueme who can teach you a lesson or two.

bleck and sienna may have to worry about Big Berd and Nole though. Do remember pride goes before a fall, better take ed's advice.

I don't mind if Fedfans gloat, I would be inclined to do the same had the results been the other way round.

Rafa is not too upset, in fact, he is not upset at all. He is taking it well admitting that he tried his best but Fed was far too good yesterday, even when prompted by the press to say he was saving himself for the Tsonga match.

Yes this was just a RR match, but what a match it was.
Of course I would've prefered for Roger to win the tournament rather than this match but he can do both.

I've done my little bit of gloating and shall now stop so you can ease a little.

I think Roger deserves to win the tournament but it's all in the lap of the gods depending on whose lucky star shines the brightest this week.

I'm backing Tipsa.

Listen what we see here is the usual mumbo jumbo from Luckystar.
yesterday he could not leave 1 comment from me unanswered with a ridiculous statement about nadal.

And now you are bringing in the forces Suesome and zara. My god you have falling from your pedestole havent you? (is that a good word?)

bleck is absolutely right if Fed would go on to lose the next matches then of course I would be dissapointed but that takes nothing away from the match we have seen yesterday.

Luckystar
you really are arrogant and filled with anger towards Fed and his fans. You are the one instigating all the troubles on this site between Fedfans and Nadalfans. Somehow you get away with it because the moderators tend to look away when you are bullying around but it has been noticed.

Sosueme is HERE nimrod.
I said that Nadal was my favourite if he was NOT ill.
Clearly he was under the weather still & up against a Fed playing some brilliant tennis.
Not a good combination.
What gave it away to me was the prematch interview when he said that `even if he lost today he still would have another chance afterwards`
That blew me away as i have never seen Rafa talk in such a manner just before a match.
He was clearly not feeling it.
If he manages to get by Tsonga he should be feeling good come Saturday & hopefully back to his best to a least make a tournament of it.
Djokovic shall probably start to get into the swing of things soon as well.
Not taking anything away from Roger also however as he was most impressive.

A note to FEDfans and Roger Federer

Congrats FEDfans! Sienna/Beck (all FEDfans! ) :) RIGHT ON MASTER FEDERER! RIGHT ON! The FED is such a sublime player. He continues to defy even the laws of age. Surprising the imagination at ableness. :) After all... Roger! Roger! Roger! :) Pulling out this kind of play again (at "his age")?! Simply AMAZING! and WONDERFUL! MAGIC! No wonder he is the GREATEST of them all... The FED is not here to prove anything, he has nothing to prove. It's all extra pleasure "icing" over the cake. Long live Roger Federer! I just love the way this guy can play tennis. Unfortunate for Rafa's loss. He has a good heart. I like that about him.

Yep nadline, we all acknowledged that Fed played too well yesterday. Yet those two not only gloat but are trying to provoke others. Of course we know Rafa will try his best in every match, but that does not mean that he has to do that at the risk of injuring himself, or exhausting himself and then comes out next day too flat to play a good match. We know this year, he's plagued by his foot injury during and after Wimbledon, so he has to be careful not to exert his foot too much and risk worsening the condition. I believe Rafa is wise enough to factor in all these and decide for himself what's the best course of action he should take, like skipping the Paris Masters for example.

" said that Nadal was my favourite if he was NOT ill.
Clearly he was under the weather..." Of course beacuse he lost. What balsphemy it would be for federer to beat an healthy nadal. And nadline has said it nadal never loses when he's healhty so since he lost he wasn't.

"If he manages to get by Tsonga he should be feeling good come Saturday & hopefully back to his best to a least make a tournament of it."

If djokovic wins the group he would play nadal should he beat tsonga so it depends.
If djokovic wins today then nadal will surely lose, 7-0 doesn't sound too good to nadal. If djokovic loses nadal will still probably lose even though tsonga is very irregular.

stay well sue. ;)


Also sosueme the fact that I don't attack you personally as you do against me clearly shows who's the more objective and mature poster.

rafans, please give the fedfans an opportunity to gloat, crow to their hearts'content. Personally, I do not mind at all, it is a relief to read the fedfans euphoria, a welcome difference to their usual sourness! Their euphoria is actually a compliment to Rafa, it shows what a big scalp he is.................................yeah.

If this was Rafa inflicting such a beatdown on Nole, yeah, I would also be ecstatic.............so, I understand......................

Enjoy...................fedfans!

What suprised me in the tactics of Federer that he was willing to put more balls into the open court, even if it's to Nadal's forehand. Eventually forcing Nadal to defend with his slice backhand. That defensice slice gave Federer time to bully him... but Nadal's doublehanded BH wasn't much of a threat either.

It's the same thing Djokovic does... pulling Nadal wide on his forehand and than play his backhand dtl, which forces Nadal to use his defensive slice BH. After that slice, Nadal can be bullied around the court and eventually is put out of position. Or he's a step too late and hits an error. Look at the point they played at 2-3 0-40 in the first set.... after a net cord of Nadal, Federer hit the ball wide to Nadal's BH forcing him to defend with slice instead of hitting him doublehanded. After that Federer controlled the point.

But Nadal was a step too slow yesterday, putting a lot of balls around the middle instead of going for the corners. And I think he was a bit suprised that Federer went to his forehand as much as he did. Plus Federer's BH was clicking, also because of the fact that Nadal's topspin ball's don't bounce that high on this surface. Nadal looked ordinary compared to Federer yesterday... which doesn't happen very often. The only other time I remember Nadal looking this ordinary was in Madrid against Nalbandian who was absolutely on fire.

That's not why you don't do it, & that we both know.
However Bleck its TRUE, I admit it, you are incredibly objective & mature for sure!
And it is clear you are far more intellectual, rational & thoughtful than everyone else here, what else? Oh you are more knowledgeable, amusing & intriguing also etc & so on
esp us Non Fed Fans!
:-)
Now with that out of the way....
Don't quote Nadline to me out of context please your majesty, I was one she made the comments to. And I was less than impressed if I remember at the time. But on this occasion if you honestly think that Nadal was match fit yesterday then you are in for a rude awakening I would say.
Just telling it like it is.
And a `mature` person like you say you are would be able to accept reality of this.
I mean, its not like you're some 5th rate fanboy now is it?

Though, RITB, I won't gloat like they do. I'll just be happy about Rafa's achievement.

sosueme, that's what I call wise management. Do you remember TMC 2008, where Murray did his best to beat Fed, preventing Fed from reaching the SF, so much so that he exhausted himself in the process of doing so and came out flat the next day in the semifinal against Davy and promptly lost? Murray at that time already qualified for the semi, so it turned out not a wise thing to do, to exhaust yourself at the expense of another important match.

Nole on the other hand, after he qualified for the semi, didn't want to exhaust himself against Tsonga, and he ended up winning the TMC title that year. I remember at that time there were lots of discussion then about how stupid Murray was, and allowing Nole to end up winning the title. At that time, Murray was capable of beating Nole, having beaten Nole twice at Toronto and Cincy. So, players do have to plan and see where their priorities are.

Believe me, if Rafa had beaten Roger 63 60 I would be unbearable, so I fully understand the gloating because that is why we support our players to see them triumph. I don't see how a fan cannot rejoice at such a performance as Roger's last night. I still watch the RG 2008 final just to cheer myself up every now and again and to gloat. Lol


Vamos Rafa!

nadline, not a problem with gloating but the provoking.

Bonker, actually it also happened at last year's WTF final, except Rafa was playing much better than yesterday.

"What suprised me in the tactics of Federer that he was willing to put more balls into the open court, even if it's to Nadal's forehand"

The hard backhand shot to Nadal's forehand is a shot normally used by Novak to get the shortball.
Murray has been doing it also with an even sharper change of pace.
But it is normally a strategy reserved for players with a DHB, but even Roger could do it with his backhand yesterday.
Roger's defence esp at the breakpoint in the 5th game was stunning also!
@Luckystar, if Rafa had pulled out yesterday due to feeling off he would have been withdrawn from the tournament.
So it was more of a choiceless act on his part as no one wants to get raped like that in front of 17,000 people methinks!
He should be fine by Tsonga & good by the semis,
Then it shall depend on who he plays if he's going to get another shot a Roger or not.

"That's not why you don't do it, & that we both know."

I don't get it...

"However Bleck its TRUE, I admit it, you are incredibly objective & mature for sure!
And it is clear you are far more intellectual, rational & thoughtful than everyone else here, what else? Oh you are more knowledgeable, amusing & intriguing also etc & so on
esp us Non Fed Fans!"

Nice try to put words in my mouth that I never said... Wait isn't that what you, NNY and luckystar are always raging about...

For you to interpret that I being more objective and mature than you equals "And it is clear you are far more intellectual, rational & thoughtful than everyone else here" either you misread it or you put yourself in a very high place.
You must think very highly of yourself. Try and come down of your pedestal for your own good.

I know it hurts and that you expected nadal to win but take it easy. I can only imagine what will happen to you should Roger win the WTF undefeated. Just warning you that it will probably happen.

Stay well ;)

"Try and come down of your pedestal for your own good"

That one coming from you made me smile!
Youre attitude to everyone here smacks of deep seated intellectual narcissism & smarminess. I think some Roger federer fans lose the plot & think they ARE him.

"I know it hurts and that you expected nadal to win but take it easy"

Oh, it hurts terribly aargghh I'm in AGONY. Help!

Oh wait a minute.....I'm not a Rafa fan, so no it didn't ; )

@Nadline,

"Believe me, if Rafa had beaten Roger 63 60 I would be unbearable.."

Oh don't worry Nadline, we believe you!

Well done on keeping civil tongues. :)

It wasn't an unforced error-fest, but Nadal wasn't in hardly ANY points in the second set. Very passive tennis, while Federer bullied him around the court. Sublime play by the Maestro.

nadline
, 11/23/11 1:27 PM

tbh, if it had been the other way round and it was Rafa dishing out the beatdown to Roger I would not be as insufferable as some of the fedfans have been and continue to be because for me, a beatdown by Rafa on Roger is now part of life, nothing out of the ordinary. The reason for the fedfans euphoria is that this beatdown was so out of the ordinary for them, they are used to their guy being made to eat dust.


Now, if it was a case of Rafa "destroying" Nole, I would be insufferable! Because this is now a rare occurrence.

This is why I am happy to give the fedfans a lot of latitude here.......................

I don't know what happened to Federer yesterday. Maybe he just took a rejuvenating potion...

However, I'm really, REALLY glad I could see him playing like if we were back in 2004 again. There's no better tennis, technically and aesthetically, than what he showed yesterday.

"Sublime play by the Maestro."

And that's what made the match special. What a quality of tennis by Roger. Every true tennis fan should have loved the shot making and variety by Roger.

"Youre attitude TO EVERYONE here smacks of deep seated intellectual narcissism & smarminess."

Sosueme you're the only one who complained about this and I only have problems with you. Could it be that, just for once, you are wrong?

Never admiting that one is wrong that is a telling sign of "narcissism & smarminess"...

""Try and come down of your pedestal for your own good"

That one coming from you made me smile!"

Likewise.

There are some posters here who I bump heads with and that's part of a discussion and we jest each other every now and then. I like disussing tennis that's why I post here.

But with you it doesn't seem possible so I shall keep my replies to you to a minimum unless you start posting utter crap.

Stay safe and sound ;)

"Sosueme you're the only one who complained about this and I only have problems with you..."

Only with me? Interesting.
ha-ha-ha-ha!

Love this great rivalry! Unlike many Fed or Rafa fans, I am a huge admirer of Rafa as a Federer fan. I even rooted for Rafa over Federer in the US Open 2 years ago because I wanted to see Rafa get the career Slam he deserved...because his knees could shorten his career, and one one in the game after Fed won the FO was as worthy.
The matches they play are always a huge fan treat because their playing styles and emotions on court and how their minds work is quite different, but superb for each guy's game. While the best have been the razor-close Wimbledons, a few thrilling duels to the death at various Masters 1000 - sometimes the fans of other guy completely relish and delight in a total beatdown match. This was one. No delight in me at Rafa's loss - the guy is a warrior and a complete class act - but it does balance the scales a bit for that FO bagel Rafa had on Roger when Roger was down with mono and less than 100%.
AND Federer creeps back to #3!!
It's still Nole Djokovic's year, Federer will face some great somebody in the semis, and some great some other if he gets through and is in the Finals - so no one should presume a title is in the bag just because he beat Nadal badly. But it could be a great finish for Federer or Nole...or Nadal if he rebounds from the loss.

Maybe this has been discussed somewhere else - sorry if it has ...

Is it possible for Federer to overtake Murray in the rankings now that Andy has pulled out?

^^^ wow a nice fed fan here,
I'm familiar with this species on other sites & in the real world more than on TT. So it's good for the indigenous Nadal-fan species presently to witness them also out of their natural habitats of Tennis X etc :)
@Federerfan its in the bag for Roger now Andy has withdrawn.

federerfan, I read this somewhere...

"Federer could overtake Andy Murray as year-end No. 3 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings by winning all three of his round-robin group matches and his semi-final at The O2."
--ATP

but honestly I don't care about the rankings, I do love it with Roger wins though. ABSOLUTELY!!! LOL :) One game at a time Rog! One game at a time... Go Rog Go!

federerfan, Yes it is. roger needs to reach the final winning the macth against fish on thursday or win the whole thing if he loses to fish (not likely).

Roger Federer is in uncharted territory as a tennis player and an athlete.Who really knows what he's capable of?

Most of the comments here are a desperate effort by Nadal loyal fanatical fans to overlook the thrashing he got last night. It's funny to see how they relentlessly trying to find something positive out of that shameful loss by bringing up silly excuses for him. Seems like the man himself would be ashamed reading what his followers are writing here to cover him up. The thing is, when a player looses so badly in a tournament which is meant for the "Best of best", simply shows there is nothing much he can do in such surfaces, because his game is simply not suited for those conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if Nadal takes on another beating from Tsonga in the remaining match of the World Tour Finals. Had this tournament been on clay, I am sure he would have the number 5 or 6 as wins beside his name by now and this tournament would be all about him!

Nadal winning in the hard courts would get more and more rarer from now onwards, as he gets older and his athleticism along with the court coverage wouldn't help him alone anymore to win matches. What he couldn't do in the previous 7 outings at the WTF while he was more young and fresh, is highly unlikely would be done easily after today. His best bet is still the clay season, so it's to be seen how long he holds on to that after this.

It's not about Federer winning against Nadal in the WTF, that was so very obvious, but it's about how big and for how long can clay court specialists like Nadal go on doing which some of his much renowned predecessors couldn't accomplish much.

Cheerio!

Congratualtions to ALL Roger fans. Roger Federer played an excellent match...........Rafa just didnt have the answers. But I have to say that Rafa did not play like himself................he seems a shadow of his former self out there. Rafa at his best probably would still have lost to Fed yesterday but at least he would have put up a fight......take it to a tie break..............Rafa seems to now have lost his mojo............for now!!!


Miss you Rafa......please come back to us soon!!!

VAMOS!!!

Does anyone know what Rafa said in his presser?

Rafans, if you think you're having it rough dealing with Rafa's mauling at Fed's hands..............spare a thought for Fleur and scoretracker out there in purgatory, they must be going nuts missing the opportunity to rub Rafans' noses in it while it is still fresh!!

Life truly ain't fair............................

Monalysa, here is the link to Rafa's presser:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Media/Channels.aspx?gt=Intervi ews&q=Interviews

Lucky, I agree. The personal insults towards Rafa by some Fedfans is so over the top that I have decided not to even read the posts of the two culprits here. How they get away with it time and time again is unbelievable. When I say gloating is OK, I'm not referring to the bile that some Fedfans have in their posts regarding Rafa.

I'm just saying that not to expect some gloating would be unnatural.

I actually think there is something wrong in his off court life - his body language etc is the same as in 2009 when his parents split. After reading his biography I think it has to do with Uncle Tony.

Wow this comment has gone by unnoticed! I saw it and thought well when I touched the subject I was almost literally hanged by luckystar and his friends.

Maybe because a fellow rafatard was the writer it doesnot matter so much.

Please do a blog about your fave Cheryl and his troublesome relation with his coach, mentor, fatherfigure (in youth) Uncle T.

@Bonker: good analysis above, makes sense to me. It seems to me the guys with big forehands are so used to hitting forehands mid court and inside out (because almost nobody hits to their forehand court on purpose) that they have a bit of trouble attacking balls wide to their forehand. I think this has been used by the big flat hitters (Berdych, Tsonga) effectively on Federer before.
Djokvoic is just so solid on both sides, it makes no difference to him.
Well I remember feeling sick when Nadal took out Federer straightforwardly on the US hard courts in March...these guys both can bounce back. I would say though Federer will play Nadal will more confidence in the future...Nadal definitely did not really give his best effort after 3-0 in the 2nd set though...

When the O2 contract expires, the WTF should be on clay, in S. America.

What's the semis format like i.e. who plays who from the 2 groups? Do the winners from either group play one another in the semis or does winner in group A play runner-up in group B?

Please advise..................

What is noteworthy is that the top four have been swapping places in the rankings for several years And all four have made come-backs after being in the doldrums for varying lengths of time and for a variety of reasons. It is simply not possible to play at 100% year in and year out.

As Roger put it so succinctly there is not much difference between being 2, 3, & 4. The one that matters is No.1 and for Roger that is his goal because 1 more week would break the Sampras record. He claims he doesn't think about records but that statement is hard to swallow.

So Rafans and Murraymints take heart. Fedfans and Djokovites enjoy it while it lasts.

Winner in group A plays runner-up in Group B and vice-versa.

I don't think Nadal would be too worried with the loss if he was genuinely not feeling well or something. But if he was "feeling perfect", then I think he needs a huge reassessment of his game. It has really gone south since Wimbledon. In any case, all isn't lost until he doesn't have a good clay season. A good clay season has been where he has laid the foundation for his great biennial overall seasons.

Murray has been starting well the last two years, so I do expect this trend to continue. As for Nole, I don't know what to expect. He might need something to rediscover the same hunger (perhaps the challenge of defending slams and repeating a great year?). In any case, I just feel the AO surface is best suited to Nole.

fed was simply fantastic! He basically made nadal a spectator in this one. As for nadal, he should bounce back in due course, but his match against tsonga will be brutal.(right now, I am leaning towards the frenchman to cause the upset.)

^^ Yup, I think Federer has been as good as he was in his prime on quite a few occasions this year.

Yes we just Fed actually focussed the whole match without one of his lapses of focus he sometimes has. Add that to a surface which lets him use the backhand as a weapon instead of a slicer, and then that's what happens...remember the guy is 30, it's really amazing.
arguably his best match since the FO semi final (and the FO final too - he stuck with Nadal for 3 tight sets before finally fading in the 4th).

GUysread this post sumwer..lets discuss

I think this is a turning point between Roger and Rafa on the head to head. I think from now on, Fed will beat Rafa 2 out of every 3 times they play. This is because Fed has turned a corner against Rafa, how he plays Rafa. Federer now hits his back hand with more top spin and clearance over the net, which keeps him in points longer and minimizes the errors that rafa counts on to win. And now Roger has learned the effectiveness of pounding rafa's back hand with heavy top spin balls until rafa offers a short reply to attack or makes an error (this out of Nole's play book). Sorry to say but if Roger applies this tactic against Rafa, like I said, Roger will beat him 2 out of every three times they play from now on... Rafa's only chance is that Roger (or Nole or anyone else who can apply this tactic) gets tired. That's it. I would not be surprised if Rafa falls to third or 4th place in the rankings in 2012. Off course that depends on Roger, and also on Rafa himself. If Rafa makes adjustments where he becomes more agressive and is effective, then things can change for him. Otherwise, Rafa is toast. Other guys are giving Rafa more trouble, making him work harder than before because they are not being overaly agressive, they're hitting more to his BH with top spin and clearance over the net. They've taken a page out of Nole's playbook, and Rafa is having to work harder. His ploys are not working like before because guys are giving him less unforced errors.

When the O2 contract expires, the WTF should be on clay, in S. America.
nadline, 11/23/11 3:26 PM

I'll give you that one if the French Open is played on the Bercy indoor court. :)

So many people posting here that I didn't know.

Numero that isn't even remotely the same. The French Open is a grand slam, one of the four corners of tennis importance. The WTF is merely a glorified masters tournament. No one talks about masters when considering the greatness of a players career.

Chrisford, Nice to have a Fed fan like you posting here - makes a very nice change.

Felt the same watching French Open final in 2008 it was not nice to watch Fed lose like that.

sanju
, 11/23/11 4:33 PM

Exactamundo.
This was just what i was implying when I constantly was getting fouled out by Luckystar.

federer has seen the light against Nadal. And Nadal has seen it in the eyes of Roger. This match is pivital in their matchup. It changes everything and the players do know this because they were playing the match. We were alle able to see it unfolding before our eyes.
This was not just about Fed winning against Nadal. He has done that before. This was about complete controle in the rally and Fed was able to put his domination on to Rafa. Never has that happened in their matches. Yesterday was the moment their matchup changed for the rest of their careers. How long they maybe given rafa's state of mind I really do not know.

Numero that isn't even remotely the same. The French Open is a grand slam, one of the four corners of tennis importance. The WTF is merely a glorified masters tournament. No one talks about masters when considering the greatness of a players career.

willmw101 , 11/23/11 4:36 PM



really???


goat analysis expert!!

sanju, Fed had already done that at the WTF last year against Rafa and looked what happened to him this year against Rafa? Rafa beat him three out of four times they met. People get excited each time Fed beat Rafa. May I ask, did Fed play like he did at the WTF last year when he was playing at Miami, Madrid and RG this year? It's not realistic to expect Fed to play this way throughout the whole season. Also Rafa this year wasn't playing as well as last year but nobody knows whether comes the next season, which Rafa will appear, the 2010 or the 2011 version.

It's too early to tell how things will turn out next year. As well as Fed played this year on clay, he still couldn't beat a subpar Rafa, so how can we be sure that an older Fed next year will beat Rafa on clay. The talk that now players learned from Nole how to beat Rafa but still it's Rafa and Nole who dominated all the slams and reached the most Masters finals. Rafa is still no.2 and reaching so many finals despite the players 'knowing how to beat him' now. Just show some respect for Rafa, can we?

Mani4tennis,

Great comment, really added to the discussion, thank you for your breathtaking insight...

Sigh......................."Rafa is finished, his career is on the wane, his powers are over, blah, blah, blah........."

We have been down this road before......................

Rafa is serene...., knowledgeable Rafans are serene........,

Only Rafa can cause such a seismic reaction on the web with this predictable loss to Rog...............because he is the best...................

I think this was just an incredible performance for Federer given the year he has had, first year without a slam for a long long time, this is considered the 5th largest tournament after the majors, he really did turn back the clock.

Although a strong Federer fan though, I don't feel heavily eager to beat on Nadal fans, although trust me I've definitely done so in the past.

I think Rafa will go down as the best clay courter of all time, he already has that prize in my eyes. What we saw last night though to me shows us something that couldn't be done by any of the other tops players at present.

I mean think about this for a second, can you imagine a 30 yr old Nadal even beating a 25 yr old Federer, all I'm asking for is for him to get the 'W', not demolish Fed, it would be an impossible task would it not?

Could you see Djokovic or Murray competing well against a 25 yr old Nadal or Federer at the age of 30, again, I just don't see it.

For Federer to show what he showed last night represents something we undervalue as a tennis audience, it's a champion who has won it all, and at the age of 30, being exactly 1,891 days older than Nadal, to do that...I couldn't believe my eyes.

I've watched the matach 4 times now, it's still ridiculous to watch, heaviest defeat he ever gave Nadal, and he did it in his 30's while Nadal was absolutely in his prime.

Unbelievable.

Only Rafa can cause such a seismic reaction on the web with this predictable loss to Rog...............because he is the best...................

rafaisthebest , 11/23/11 6:08 PM


Well said!

What a great post eelesino. Just like we celebrate this victory in total awe of Fed and with respect to Nadal.
I agree 100% we should be proud and lucky that we are able to see this champion still aying the way he does. I hope he can keep this going for 3 more years and if he decides to play after that I wil still respect him. He chnages lifes he touches people with his game. I believe some Rafa fans are compairing his game yesterday with that if a God? Well if there was a god and he liked tennis hen he made a good GOAT,

I've just watched the highlights of the match again.... Most of the time that Nadal played close to the baseline he got pushed behind by the depth of Federer's balls and he hit the ball with while walking backwards resulting in a shorter ball. Or the play went to fast for him and he got pulled out of position.

If you want to succeed on the faster courts, you just can't stay 2 or 3 metres behind the baseline and rely on your defensive skills. Nadal wasn't aggressive enough... partially because he just wasn't at his best and partially because the way Federer played. With the 1-2 punches that Tsonga can deal, I wonder if he can battle past him? But I still feel pretty relieved that Federer won, this puts the pressure off his last RR match :-)

Congrats to all you Fed fans. Feds still has the will to win. It wasn`t nice to see a player of RafaelN`s class take such a beating though, even though he wasn`t 100% fit.

Schatz 11/23/11 @11.26
I agree, I think RafaelN has issues in his personal life and they are affecting his game. Ive said before there has been a big change in RafaelN psychologically i.e his focus isn`t on his game.

Well lucky..ofcourse I respect him..I just want him to do well and pocket atleast 13-14 slams before he retires..thats all I ask..I dont even care about him reaching 16..I am just worried if hell reach 13-14 now and I so hope he comes back strong n 2012..whether he will time will tell as rest of field is getting stronger ..

Fed in 2008 had to battle with only Rafa and lost his No 1..Nole and Murray were still shaky

Rafa in 2011 has to battle with a good and bankable though not vintage Fed, totally come into his own Nole and an always dangerous Andy plus many other spoilers like Berdych, Tsonga etc who can do severe damage on their given day

what issues in personal life..gf still there with him.parents divorce is 2 years old now.im sure he ha come around it

Relationshp with Uncle Toni..well can it affect that much? Maybe theres an issue between Uncle Toni and his parents..im just speculating..but ts possible..Ive never seen Uncle Toni and his parents/gf sitting together past few months for his matches

Tomm is key with Tsonga..it will also gve an idea into his mental state..If Djoko wins today hell qualify as No 1 in his group and Rafa will know he will play Djoko if he wins his RR..if he still wins his match against Tsonga..it will mean hes willing to face Djoko and even get beaten but not fearful of him to face him.

Ofcourse between Nole n Rafa what we saw in this tourney..Nole will take it 99%

Fed may have a sitting duck in his semi with mostly Ferrer..but Berdych winning today may qualify if he wins against Ferrer

Wow! Roger's great play has brought out a lot of Fed fans. Welcome everybody! It's nice to have more than a few of us around here. This place was teeming with Rafans when I joined.

Federer tipping Rafa to win encounter with Tsonga..maybe hes just being polite :-)

"This win ranks high because it's against my biggest rival, probably," Federer said.

"It was a great match for me from start to finish. I've felt the power of Rafa in the past, so this is a great match for me, a nice win."

"We've played so many times, sometimes it just derails for you, like it derailed for Rafa today and it did for me at the French Open."

"You know what good front-runners the top guys are. Once you start rolling it's hard to stop the player. Next thing you know, you're facing a debacle."

Nadal now faces an elimination showdown with Frenchman Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, but Federer tipped the Spaniard to bounce back.

"You can never count out Rafa," he said. "It's an open match to a degree but I still favour Rafa because of who he is."

Sanju,

In all honesty, the respect for Rafa has always been present from Fed, he respects his game, even when it has cost him multiple French Opens earlier in his career.

I think he'd rather see Nadal come through, as I say this politely, but I see now chance of Rafa beating Federer here at this event, I didn't before, I definitely don't after that match last night.

Tsonga on the other hand, that guy is dangerous, and unpredictable, he could beat either Nadal or Fed if he felt like it, it's just the other players lack the mental edge when it comes to wanting the victory, Berdych is the worst for this.

This is why the top 4 of miles apart from the rest of the pack in my view.

Sanju, Without going into too much detail, in Rafa's biography he said if things are not "calm" in his off court life and that includes his team, it affects his tennis. I have only just finished his book and the only other time I saw this sort of body language was when his parents separated. It took him a while but he got over that.

Rafa is much more sensitive than people think and he absolutely hates discord - his tennis team is like family to him and I used to like Uncle Toni and respect what he had done with Rafa but I am sorry to say I have changed my mind.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/8909001/ATP-World-Tour-Finals- 2011-Rafael-Nadal-adamant-he-can-join-Roger-Federer-in-semi-finals-des pite-heavy-defeat.html

I like you to äy full attention! Fed always gets mahandled on this site because he is misquoted or says something the Rafanatics explaine as arrogant. Look at this article.

"When you play against Federer and he's playing like this the only way to stay in the match is to get free points with the serve and I couldn't do that.

"He was too good for me. When I beat him in the Roland Garros final in 2008 it was a similar thing but the difference is that was the final of a Grand Slam and this was a round-robin match.

Clearly down playing the relevance of the defeat and bring up the 2008 mono final,

Pay close attention to the next bit... He clearly doesnot say that he was injured!!
And while he wouldn't blame the defeat on those problems, he did admit he had been unable to practise on Monday due to the shoulder injury.

"I woke up with the shoulder problem so I had to work to recover from that and I didn't get a chance to practise," he said.

"I didn't know if I would be able to play today but it didn't affect my match because I felt perfect.


This is bad sportmanship unworthy of Nadal is in complete denial.

it's called being honest, Sienna...how did Rafa down play Fed by saying "he was too good for me"? But the fact is that RG final can by no means be the same as round robin match in WTF, at least as far as Rafa is concerned. You know how much RG means to Rafa and there are few victories that can be even nearly important to him as that great win over Fed in RG final.

And for the injury: Rafa experienced this shoulder problem during his time-off and Tony spoke about it prior to the WTF...I remember thinking how unlucky Rafa is this year...with all his problems during the season, injuries and those lost finals and confidence issues, he ended up injuring himself during practice...well, how bad that is? So don't be too harsh on Rafa...you know how much he admires Fed...do read his interviews...he was never ever saying anything but "Fed is the greatest tennis player ever"...

OkI understand when Fed makes statements like that he is arrogant and a sore loser disresecting his opponent but when Rafa does it ten fould the Fed does it is called honest?

Listen I have the utmostrespect for Rafa. But when Fed is being putin a position on this site and called a cheater, or unsportmanslike or disrespectful towards opponents then I will look at Nadal in the same way they are looking at Fed.

And he did pull out the excuses after his humiliation so I dont see any honesty in that.

and Fed has got nothing to do with the russian dictator.

Sienna, thank you for posting the link, interesting to watch.

I don't think Rafa can make any excuse for this loss and he knows it...he was utterly and completely outplayed but it is not the first time the top four have made him look hopeless...nothing new this year for Rafa...for Fed this is great win...he is back on track and believe me I love seeing him play like this...the competition gets tougher...it is great to have this Fed around...it will make Rafa play better and work harder, I just know it...

yeah, I happen to like Tony as I think he has mostly contributed to what Rafa has accomplished so far but sometimes he just surprises me with his ?way? to kill Rafa?s confidence...these are some extracts from Tony's latest interview right before the WTF...although you might have already seen it...

HOW WOULD YOU RATE RAFA'S SEASON?

-. With some flaws and fissures. Playing so many finals is a good outcome, but losing so many of them is a great flaw.
When you lose in the US Open, Wimbledon, Indian Wells, Miami finals... that's too many flaws.


HOW SHOULD RAFA PLAY, IF HE COMES UP AGAINST DJOKOVIC AGAIN?

-. Rafael should play much more aggressively, try to play like the Rafa in the third set at the US Open and not get drawn into such long rallys.
That would be fundamental, though it'll always be difficult to do that in a match against Novak.


WILL THE AIM IN 2012 BE TO GET THE NUMBER 1 BACK?

-. The aim is to play as well as possible, prepare ourselves well and be competitive. Getting the number one back is difficult, not just because of Djokovic but because Murray, Federer and Del Potro are also there. There are many good players and it's complicated. I would say the aim is to manage our utmost and keep winning Roland Garros.

IS RAFA THE BEST CLAYCOURT PLAYER IN HISTORY?

-. I saw Borg play and I think he is better than Rafa. Their results are similar, though Rafa might obtain even greater achievements on clay. But I have the feeling Borg was better. In any case, Rafael is still playing and we'll have to wait to see what titles the one and the other have obtained.

sanju, the way Nole is playing now, I don't see him as a problem for anyone. If Rafa can beat a red hot Tsonga, he can beat this Nole. The problem for Rafa is still to get past Tsonga. Thereafter, he'll most likely meet another red hot player Ferrer. Ferrer has every chance of beating Rafa. I like the way Ferrer plays this tournament, he steps inside the court and does more attacking these days, especially at the net. He certainly moves very quickly, those drop shots thrown in by Nole, Berdych can't get to them but not a problem for Ferrer, he's so delightful to watch playing like this.

numero,

A number of Rafa fans have stopped posting because of some of the bile that has been posted here by the likes of trolls like Solitudine, who is neither a real tennis fan or someone who wants to talk tennis. I don't blame some Rafa fans for getting fed up.

Also, I see this nonsense about Rafa being a "clay court specialist" has been brought up again by a Fed fans. Typical. It would have to be someone who knows zero about tennis to say that about Rafa. He has won slams on all surfaces and the career slam, so sorry that argument isn't going to fly anymore. His best surface happens to be clay and he is almost as good on grass. Or have some conveniently forgotten that he got to three straight Wimbledon finals with the third time being the charm? Now he owns two Wimbledon titles, one AO and one USO. Not bad for a clay court specialist! Hah! That argument is so ridiculous that I am surprised anyone would even bring it up. Oh right, just to incite Rafa fans. I forgot.

Rafa not doing well on indoor hard court surfaces does not equate to being only a clay court specialist. That argument doesn't make sense and has no substance.

I also really dislike the comments about Rafa's personal life. It's all pure speculation, since no one has a clue what is going on. I don't like to even go there. Players have ups and downs in their career. Rafa is going through a rough patch and he also had one in 2009 after his knee tendinitis and his parents' divorce. I have confidence that Rafa will get it all sorted out and come back stronger than ever. I would never make the mistake of writing off a great champion.

People made that mistake with Fed. I never wrote him off. They should not make that mistake with Rafa either.

When are the Fed fans gong to stop using word mono against every 2008 Fed loss..Just get over it and accept he lost it..its written in the books he lost RG, Wimbledon and his No 1 ranking that year to Rafa..nothing can change that

And Rafa is poor in English..just stop twisting his statements to pick up a controversy..He doesn't articulate well in English..Fed has no excuse because he is fluent in the language

sanju,

Thank you for bringing up the incessant references by Fed fans to him supposedly having mono when he lost to Rafa in the 2008 RG and Wimbledon! Hypocrisy of the first order! Yet they do not see it. How often have Rafa fans had to hear Fed fans accusing both Rafa and us of making excuses.

Sienna just did it again in her post @ 9:26 pm. She also referenced selected comments from Rafa's press conference, carefully cherry-picking only those that would support her erroneous conclusion that Rafa was disrespecting Fed and being unsportsmanlike.

I listened to Rafa's entire press conference and he made no excuses for his loss, even when the media asked him repeatedly if he felt tired or he seemed tired. He wouldn't go there. He is too classy for that. He gave Fed full credit for being too good. He said that when Fed is playing like this, then he can't beat him. There were more comments to that effect. Unless you are living on another planet or in your own little world, I don't know how any reasonable person could misinterpret Rafa's comments. His respect for Fed has been evident all throughout their rivalry.

What does infuriate me, is the two-faced nature of this nonsensical reference to Fed having mono when he lost back-to-back slams to Rafa in 2008. This is why it is next to impossible to have a discussion with Fed fans. They are allowed to bring up this absurd excuse to explain those losses to Rafa, however Rafa fans are never allowed to bring up any of his injuries. How convenient to set the terms of a discussion. Fed fans do this all the time. Set the parameters and then contradict them immediately.

Fed showed up to play in the 2008 RG and Wimbledon slams. He lost. No excuses! Don't turn around and play the same game that you accuse Rafa fans of playing. If you can't deal with those losses, then that's too bad for you because Rafa won fair and square!

Fed was the one who brought up his own injuries after his loss to Berdych at Wimbledon, which explains why Berdych was furious. Rafa didn't talk about his injuries, it's always brought up by the media, trying to bait him. Rafa said he was not affected by any shoulder issue during the match. Rafa's shoulder problem was already known before this tournament, when he was practising at his home town. Most of his fans already know about it, and many of us here didn't even want to talk about it after his loss to Fed. Why does one Fed fan has to make a fuss out of it? Shoulder problem or not, we know it didn't make any difference to the outcome, for it's Rafa's defensive play which is his main problem, in addition to Fed's outstanding play.

Talking about players not putting in the effort to fight till the end during a match, I've already explained my point of view. Do remember during that third set of FO 2008 when Fed was bageled, some people also felt that Fed had given up during that set. Wilander even commented that Fed had no balls playing that way. Sometimes, the player involved is the best person to understand when to fight and when it's futile to fight a losing battle. We as spectators have to trust that the player(s) is/are doing their best, especially when you're a fan of the player and have been following the career of that player all along.

Mono? What mono? Federer supposedly had the mono when he lost to Novak in the 2008 AO. Anyone with any knowledge of how mono works knows that either Federer had to be bedridden or that the mono was never a factor in the 2008 RG match - if he had it in January. Federer was murdered that day by Nadal playing possibly the best tennis he ever has in his career. Plain and simple.

People should just stop giving excuses or reasons..period..Its a waste of time and wrong defense mechanism...and this applies to fan of every player and players themselves..If you injured..or unwell..just dont come to the court to play..period

Rafa doesn't give excuses but big mouth Uncle Toni does at times and I hate it when he does too..

NO ONE WOULD HAVE BEATEN RAFA DURING RG2008, RG2010 (he didnt even lose a set in these 2 GS) AND US2010..He was that good in those 3 slams..he would have streamrolled anyone who came in his way..I would say Fed was lucky Djoko beat him in the semi of US 2010 , else by now he would have lost to Rafa in each of the 4 slams..and thats a fact there is no way Fed would have even touched or toppled Rafa during US2010..Rafa just wanted that one too badly ..

I said it earlier too that 2010, 2011 US Open if played between Rafa/Fed, Rafa would have won..
2009 would clearly be won by Fed v/s Rafa,
2008 is a toss up because Rafa was exhausted after a superb 6 months from March till August where hewon 4-5 Masters, RG, Wimby, Olympics

Here they go again. Always blaiming Fedfans and Federer./ Never take an introvert look at how they behave themselves and Nadal. He clearly doiminished RR loss and he out of the blue told about the 2008 final./ three years ago. Later Fed was asked about Garros only because Rafa brought it up.

Federer?s comments after losing to Nadal at 2008 French Open finals:
http://www.tennis-x.com/story/2008-06-08/h.php

This is thanlks to a dofferent poster from another site.

I would not pick any cherys so here is the full transcript. Never you see Fed looking for excuses or downplaying Rafa's performance. This is the way you show respect to opponent. Rafa needs to learn this because he just cannot give full praise to his oppponent after a loss.


Q. That couldn't have been what you envisioned when you walked onto the court.


ROGER FEDERER: No, not really. I was hoping for a better outcome, no doubt, you know. But Rafa played well today, made it hard for me, and, yeah, was better. It was a tough loss, but I tried and I hoped, and it wasn't enough.

Q. Has he improved since this day one year ago, and have you gone off?

ROGER FEDERER: I mean, I think he's played a terrific tournament, you know. He's dominated everybody he played these last two weeks, you know. I mean, I definitely think he's improved.

I always had that feeling, you know, he's playing, you know, quite differently to the first time we played here in Paris in the semifinals. He's much better on defense, much better on offense, you know.

When you, you know, really cannot play your game and he can, you know, play exactly what he wants from the baseline, well, you end up with scores like this sometimes. It's tough for the opponent, obviously.

Q. Commiserations, Roger. It's 3?All in the second set. You have that break point to go ahead 4?3, and Nadal hits that dropshot. You chase it down. You look to just flick a backhand winner, but unfortunately you net. You don't win another game thereafter. I mean, that was a pivotal game, wasn't it?

ROGER FEDERER: Yeah, I mean, looking back, it was. I didn't think it was going to happen when I missed that backhand, you know, into the net. But what can you do? You know, I mean, I guess that was my best chance. But if that would have completely turned the match, I don't know.

Didn't come real close today so it's disappointing, because I really thought I was playing well the last few weeks and months. And where I've come from, you know, the last, you know, last half year or so, I think, you know, I'm still very ?? we're very pleased, you know, with the efforts I've put in, you know.

So to lose the way I did today, it's obviously hard and it's a rough loss, but it's ?? it's okay. I'll move on from here, and I'll try again next year.

Q. There was almost some 50 unforced errors, approximately, that you did. Do you think that's because of some overconcentration that worked against you, or is it just that what we call unforced errors, the way Nadal's balls bounce, you disliked them? Like, what made these unforced errors that were so numerous?

ROGER FEDERER: Um, look, doesn't matter now what happened, you know. I mean, the match is over; clay court season is over. I'm just here to answer some questions, not to analyze the match. I wish it was a different outcome.

I wish it could have, you know, gotten off to a better start, like maybe the last few years, but today Rafa was supreme, so it was hard.

Q. If there is a key reason in your mind for what happened, and could you name it?

ROGER FEDERER: I didn't get the beginning.

Q. If there is some key reason in your mind for what happened...

ROGER FEDERER: What kind of reason?

Q. Key reason.

ROGER FEDERER: Key reason. Excuse me, okay.

Q. For what happened, could you name it? This thing that happened today, what is it going to mean for you in the next future?

ROGER FEDERER: I mean, key for me is the way Rafa played. I mean, no doubt he played excellent. He hardly made unforced errors, and when he's on the attack, he's lethal.

On the defense, he had some, I mean, unbelievable shots, you know. I can only praise him for the level of play he's had for the last two weeks and today again under pressure.

It's not like it's easy for him either. He handles it very well. To come up with a performance like this under pressure shows what a great champion he is.

For me, I mean, it's been a good tournament. I still go out of this tournament, you know, with a positive mindset. You know, not with a mindset, Oh, my God, you know, I had no chance today. I mean, I had a little chance in the second set. Okay.

But, you know, it doesn't matter now. I mean, I'm going to look forward to grass. I think the second half of the season, hopefully, is going to be better than the first.

Q. Does the magnitude of something like this shake your belief that you can win this title?

ROGER FEDERER: Sure. I mean, after a loss like this you don't want to play Rafa again tomorrow, that's for sure, you know. You hope to be here again next year, and you probably assume that Rafa is going to be here, also.

It doesn't make it easier, you know. But I still believe that with the right mindset, with the hard work I'm going to be able to put in hopefully, you know, without hiccups, like what I had in December and February where I unfortunately missed out on, you know, key practice, you know.

I hope that that's going to maybe help me again for next year to be even better than this year. But, I mean, I still feel like I'm improving, you know. Same counts for him. So let's see what happens again next year this time.

Q. When you do play again in possibly four weeks today, will you have still have the psychological edge, do you think? Or do you think maybe that's changed after today?

ROGER FEDERER: Um, look, I mean, I've beaten Rafa 6?Love in a set. I've beaten him in finals before. I've beaten him also quite comfortably on previous reasons. Didn't really give me the edge on clay against him, you know.

I haven't lost on grass for, what is it, five years now, six years? I still definitely feel very strong about my chances and being the big favorite, you know, going into grass. You know, it's so far away, grass and clay, that losing in four or five or, you know, no chance like today, I don't think it has a big effect on me mentally.

Q. Will you play in Halle?

ROGER FEDERER: Well, yeah, I'm scheduled to play.

Q. Roger, you're by miles the second best clay court on earth. At the end of this long clay court season and this incessant talk about Rafa, are you a little bit relieved the clay court season is over?

ROGER FEDERER: No. I mean, the tough part about the clay is, let's say the first three or four weeks, you know. Not that enjoyable, you know, because everybody is just talking about Paris, everything is just, you know, this big hype. I mean, it's nice to be part of it. It means you're playing well. It is a little bit much at times.

But when sort of the French Open comes around everything sort of calms down. You focus on your section. You know, you're only sort of doing press every second day which sort of helps, as well.

Now I'm much more relaxed than maybe, you know, one month back where I don't think it's that enjoyable for us players sometimes.

Q. Beyond that, your peers look at you as an extraordinary player. Do you look at Rafa as an extraordinary player on clay?

ROGER FEDERER: Sure. I mean, it's not first time I'm saying that. I'm giving him plenty of compliments. Yeah, I don't know what to tell you.

Q. At this stage in your career, do you still have sort of the capacity for moral victories? Or do you pretty much just go into a tournament, and if you're not winning the trophy it's not fully satisfying?

ROGER FEDERER: No. I mean, like ?? I mean, the tournament has been good for me. I mean, I go out of this tournament thinking, you know, I tried everything I could. You know, I put myself in the position. But Rafa was better today, you know.

So I do find ways to stay positive even though I don't win the tournament, you know. You know, especially when you end up losing sometimes, victory is so much better, you know. On clay, you know, it's been tough on all of us, you know.

But I stayed very strong and, you know, in my mind, you know, trying to put myself over and over again in the same position and playing Rafa. I could lose every time in the semifinals and tell myself I don't want to face him in the finals, but I've been strong and I've been tough, and I made my way there. That gives me great, great feeling, you know, a good satisfaction.

Then, of course, I hope I can play better when I play Rafa or, you know, that he maybe doesn't play so well. But, you know, like today, it's hard to play against him. It was hard for everybody who faced him these last two weeks. But for me, you know, I go out and I'm positive. It doesn't always need to be a victory to go out in a positive mindset.

Q. Are you going to continue working with José Higueras?

ROGER FEDERER: Yeah. I mean, we spoke about it briefly at the beginning of Paris, you know. He's going to come to Halle with me, and he's also going to be in Wimbledon. It's something we're going to speak about the next few weeks, you know.

But I've given the request that he should consider what weeks he wants to join me for the rest of the year, so we'll see how it goes.

Q. Rafa's offensive skills are obviously improving, but do you believe that still on this surface great defense beats great offense?

ROGER FEDERER: Look, I mean, he's ?? I mean, I don't know if it's got that much to do with great offense or great defense, it's just his movement on clay. It's just better than the rest.

I mean, I've always said it three years ago already: He plays like two forehands from the baseline, you know, because he has an open stance on both sides. I can't do that, so I lose a meter or two here and there from the baseline. So he's got a huge advantage in this aspect, you know.

I don't know how he grew up doing that, you know, but it's definitely ?? I think that's very difficult, and maybe he's got the great advantage as well that in his normal life he's right handed by nature and not a lefty.

But his forehand is great, you know, and he's very tough mentally. He hardly misses, and when he goes on the offensive, he plays it close to the line. So he's got a very good clay court game.

Q. What do you think that today Rafa did better than usual? And what do you think that you did worse than usual? I mean, to explain what happened, because the score, of course, is particularly strange, no?

ROGER FEDERER: Well, yeah. I mean, of course it's a tough result, you know. But I guess, you know, when somebody of us plays very well, it's hard to stop the other opponent. Sometimes you get, I guess, results like this. Unfortunately, for the fans, you know, I wish I could have put in a better match, you know.

But I mean he ?? he was good today. That's all I can say. No more I need to add.

THE MODERATOR: French questions, please.

Q. Do you still think you can win Roland Garros?

ROGER FEDERER: Yes.

Q. Are you sure?

ROGER FEDERER: Well, if you want me to answer no if that makes you happy, then no. Choose the answer. I said yes. (laughter.)

Q. The fans were very much on your side today. How did you feel about it?

ROGER FEDERER: On the points I won, yes, but there were not that many. This is why I really hoped I could do better today, because I thought the fans could be an asset for me if the match was getting close.

But I never managed to be close enough to Rafa in the match to give the fans an opportunity to join in, so it's my mistake.

Q. When did you become aware, when did you realize, that you had to play an excellent Nadal?

ROGER FEDERER: I think he started off very well. I don't think I served bad today. My serve was okay. But he made huge progress returning my serve, and I had many difficulties taking the lead with my serve, even more than usual.

I think this is what cost me the match, because when I can win my serve, then I always have an opportunity on his serve. But when he keeps on breaking you like this, it's very difficult when I was two sets down, 4?Love. I mean, I realized there was nothing I could do.

Q. Is it more difficult to lose on such a score, or do you just accept you have a guy who can do just anything on the court?

ROGER FEDERER: Well, right now I'd say it's easier to lose this way as today, because all along the match you realize that there is nothing you can do. You're not going to win.

I think it was the same thing for him, and this is probably why his reaction was not as intense as it usually is. That's because of the result. It's always more difficult when you lose when you really could have won. Today I lost, and I lost, clearly.

Q. He is always much better than you on clay. Is he getting closer to you on grass?

ROGER FEDERER: Well, we just played each other once on grass in Wimbledon. We played each other quite a few times on clay. I don't think we've had many matches on hard surfaces this year, but he is improving as a player.

I improved, as well, this year. But I think I had to work harder to come back to my usual level after I had this disease. It was a bit difficult for me at the beginning of this year. This is probably why I lacked practice. It's a lot like for him two, three years ago when he had been injured, and you know, I was coming back.

So you need to put more effort to reach this level, and this is what I had to do. So it's a great satisfaction for me too, that I reached a final.

Of course, defeat is difficult today. I also feel how much Rafa has progressed on clay, but we'll see in the future if he is stronger on grass or on hard surfaces.

Q. Is it possible for anybody to defeat Nadal in Roland Garros? We have a feeling that this is getting tougher and tougher for everybody.

ROGER FEDERER: Of course it's tough. But you want to believe it, and this is what I tried to do. This is what I tried to do. But, I mean, the way he played today made it very difficult.

He has wonderful, awesome sensations here in Roland Garros. He has never been defeated. The only time he wasn't there was because he was injured, so, yeah. Many players should think about defeating Rafa, because I don't think many of them do that, do think about defeating Nadal.

Q. Imagine it's 2009 and this little fairy comes to you and says, You're going to win one tournament, but you have to choose: Wimbledon or Roland Garros. Which one?

ROGER FEDERER: I don't want to answer these stupid questions anymore. They're too stupid.

Q. But why?

ROGER FEDERER: Because I want to win at everything. I have no preference.

Q. You talked about your disease and the problems you had at the beginning of this season, and all the hard work you had to put in to come back to your best level. Many times during this tournament you said that you felt you were at 100% of your physical abilities. Now tell us the truth. Weren't you lying a bit to us about that? And do you genuinely feel at the top level, the level you were at before your disease?

ROGER FEDERER: Honestly, yes. I felt good today from a physical standpoint, but things turned out a bit more difficult for me than usual. He no longer plays short balls as he did in the past. You can no longer attack him on his forehand, as I could in the past. He is getting much more aggressive, and it's becoming much more difficult.

I tried to fight him physically speaking and points were not difficult for me, but he was just much stronger than me today. I didn't want to give him any free points, but it's got nothing to do with mental state or physical state. He was just stronger today.

Q. You're still No. 1. That's good.

ROGER FEDERER: Thank you. I'm happy you say so.

Q. But do you feel competition from younger players?

ROGER FEDERER: Yes and no. I played young players and all the players ?? I mean, players older than me, but they were stronger, like Hewitt and such when I came on the tour. I had to play Agassi, Roddick, Ferrero, and then there was Rafa. Now there's Djokovic coming up. He was playing semifinals in Grand Slam tournaments this year, so yes and no.

So it's motivating to see all these young players coming up. It's a challenge, but I'm quite confident the second half of the season is going to be better than the first, and this is why I want to focus on grass now.

We'll see later what happens for the ranking. It's true that Rafa has played very well so far, but the clay season is over, so let's see what happens.

Did you read my post? It was not about cherry-picking comments from Fed, it was about you taking certain comments from Rafa's press conference after his loss to Fed yesterday!!

Good grief! So what I get in reply is the entire transcript of Fed's press conference to prove what? You did not talk about Fed, you attacked Rafa specifically for making excuses and disrespecting Fed and being unsportsmanlike.

Maybe you need a refresher on what you posted - your comment @9:26 pm.

"http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/8909001/ATP-World-Tour -Finals- 2011-Rafael-Nadal-adamant-he-can-join-Roger-Federer-in-semi-finals-des pite-heavy-defeat.html

I like you to äy full attention! Fed always gets mahandled on this site because he is misquoted or says something the Rafanatics explaine as arrogant. Look at this article.

"When you play against Federer and he's playing like this the only way to stay in the match is to get free points with the serve and I couldn't do that.

"He was too good for me. When I beat him in the Roland Garros final in 2008 it was a similar thing but the difference is that was the final of a Grand Slam and this was a round-robin match.

Clearly down playing the relevance of the defeat and bring up the 2008 mono final,

Pay close attention to the next bit... He clearly doesnot say that he was injured!!
And while he wouldn't blame the defeat on those problems, he did admit he had been unable to practise on Monday due to the shoulder injury.

"I woke up with the shoulder problem so I had to work to recover from that and I didn't get a chance to practise," he said.

"I didn't know if I would be able to play today but it didn't affect my match because I felt perfect.


This is bad sportmanship unworthy of Nadal is in complete denial."

Well? So all you did was quote Fed after YOU attacked Rafa for HIS comments in HIS press conference! What is wrong with this picture.

Also, it is really inconsiderate to post the entire transcript and not just provide a link.

Feds legacy is great and protected..why are hs fans so insecure about his legacy

I cant understand the constant berating of Rafa and Djoko to make Fed look good..I mean Fed has his place secured..nothing that Rafa or Djoko will do will diminish Feds legacy

There are people praying that Djoko should suffer more losses this season so that Feds season of 2006 ends up looking stronger..Inshort you are strongly wishing bad for Djoko..Its okay to wish good for Fed as you are his fan but to wish bad for Djoko cant be functioning of a clean mind..Get the difference?

Nadal is thrashed a lot by most Fed fans , they actually wish bad for him and the primary reason is for the losses he has inflicted on Fed and having snatched No 1 back from him twice..Hasnt Rafa slogged and earned his laurels? Cant you respect that? Has he got it on a platter? No he has earned it fair and square..Its pathetic to hear terms like clay court specialist still being used to diminish his achievements..I mean get a life people and think more positively and lovingly about others. . person having 4 non clay slams (and beaten Fed n Djoko in 3 of them), 15-16 non clay titles cant be a clay court specialist.Can a clay court specilaist have been No 1 for 100 weeks , is it even feasible as clay is played just 2.5 months of the year ? Even Fed recognises that Rafa is an all round player but his fans wont admit.

I will just sum by saying that anyone who berates someones achievements and tries to put sumone down is by no means a happy and positive and successful person in their own life, thats the reason they take pleasure in pinning others down..And Rafa, Fed, Djoko will anyway care 2 hoots of what is written here, but the attitude we carry will only reflect in our own lives and the consequences we anyway have to pay for.

We have seen horrble ugliness on all sites between Fed fans and Rafa fans..till now this site has been very civil and respectful between Rafa and Djoko fans..I shudder to think if even their fans turn hostile towards each other..well then ahve an ugly 3 way hostile fan foum all over

sanju,

You have picked up on something I have been reading regarding Fed winning the WTF, so that he can protect his legacy and not let Nole have a year that could compare with his best years. Always it's about not threatening Fed's records, wins, legacy, etc. I cannot for the life of me understand this obsession with trying to continually demean or diminish the accomplishments of other players.

In no way would I ever try to demean what Nole has done this year, even though a good deal of it has been at Rafa's expense. I don't see Rafa's legacy being threatened in any way by the great year Nole has had. No one can ever take away what a player has done. It is there for all eternity. So I am baffled at all of this protectiveness and need for Fed to never be eclipsed. Well, I am sorry to have to tell Fed fans that it has happened - in 2008 when Rafa beat him at RG and Wimbledon and became the new #1 and again in 2010 when Rafa won three straight slams - RG, Wimbledon and the USO being the first player since Rod Laver in 1969 to win those three slams in the same year. Now this year it was Nole who eclipsed the other top players by winning three slams and going on an amazing winning streak.

I think we should celebrate these achievements in men's tennis. It is a golden age now and we are fortunate to be privileged to see it all. I feel truly sorry for anyone who is so obsessed with their own favorite player's status and greatness, that they have to try to protect it at the expense of the other great players and their accomplishments.

NNY. You completely failed to understand what is wrong here.

I was being accused of chery picking out of Rafa presser so I tried to show you that Fed on his behalf is very considered towards his opponents after a defeat.
This needed too be done because he is often falsely accused of not being respectfull towards his opponent after semi.

So you can stop trying to immidate or actually irritate me with your long boring posts. I am not scoretracker whose is willing to engage you in those fights.

Besides you have no real ground here anymore. You provd to be one of the least knowledgable posters here on this site after you ignorant performance in the first RR matches. My goodness you were terrible. I could see you were a poster never to have picked up a racket yourself and never actually played a tennis match yourself. SOmetimes that is neccasary to invision what happens in a match. You are a tennis NONO

I thought there was a rule about not making personal insults designed to incite other posters.

NNY: remember the pact. Dont get dragged into this.

Sincerely, I'm amazed by the fact that Federer is still capable to learn more in tennis - game that we all thought he mastered to proficiency long ago. His backhand is excellent. Like never before, he can play winners using backhand and still his forehand is better to avoid if possible. Now he learned from Djokovic the way to play against Nadal: aggressively take Rafa's top spins early in rising... Although I'm Nole's fan, I'm pretty sure that WTF 2011 winner will be Federer.

Further to natashao's post @ 11.29pm on 23/11

IS RAFA THE BEST CLAYCOURT PLAYER IN HISTORY?

I saw Borg play and I think he is better than Rafa. Their results are similar, though Rafa might obtain even greater achievements on clay. But I have the feeling Borg was better. In any case, Rafael is still playing and we'll have to wait to see what titles the one and the other have obtained.

This is a good example of what uncle Toni does to Rafa - his biography shows many examples of him undermining Rafa's confidence in a similar way. It really surprised me and I cannot understand why he still does it - Rafa is no longer a teenager who has to be kept in his place.

I am really angry that he said something like that in view of what has happened to Rafa this year.

"It really surprised me and I cannot understand why he still does it - Rafa is no longer a teenager who has to be kept in his place."

Can't you see that if nadal goes against uncle T, uncle T will take away his playstation. lol

With uncle Toni it seems to be my way or the highway as you say in your part of the world.

sienna, please read the transcript of Rafa's presser. He was asked to compare his loss to Fed with the RG 2008 loss he handed to Fed. Rafa was not the one who brought up the RG2008 result out of the blue. Stop accusing him of doing that. Why don't you go to the right source instead of relying on some press reports which pick and choose certain quotes to suit their own purposes.

I thought Fed was already doing that, ie taking the topspin ball early with his backhand, during last year's WTF final? I remember people were singing praises then about how good Fed's backhand was durng that match. This is exactly what he's doing now, I don't see him learning from Nole. It's just that it's easier to do that on indoor low bounce surface. Outdoor surfaces with uneven bounce, it's a lot harder to do that.

Rafa was playing much better at last year's WTF hence he didn't get the shellacking that he gets this year. He's more aggressive last year and served better too.

Why is everybody going for the person instead of looking at their tennis? I'm a Fed-fan... but I also like to see a great tennis match. I've enjoyed watching Djokovic this year, because he played lights out tennis!

The press is always coming up with stories to sell. Tennis, like many other sports, is judged by the day. In January everyone was talking about a Rafa-slam... by the end of the year it seems like he can't win a major tournament anymore. If Djokovic doesn't win anything the next year and Federer and Murray divide all the major tournaments and masters.... Djokovic will be called a one year wonder and so on. Maybe he, maybe he isnt... doesn't take anything away from this year. Tennis is a game of mind (Tennis IQ, momentum, confidence), skill and body. One day you're great, the other day something might be missing.

If Fed should fall back to the #6 position in the rankings, it doesn't matter to me. He's playing tennis because he loves doing it and pursuing his own goals. I don't know what they are... but he'll let us know if he thinks this year was disappointing. Nadal said he was glad to have this year... winning a slam and going deep in most of the tournaments.

The players are getting along fine... they all respect each other. Why can't fans... It's more about the ego or obsession for a player, then paying respect where it is due. Nadal is a great champion and so are Djokovic and Federer.

If Nadal, Laver and Sampras call Federer the Goat, then why must fans battle it out in a forum. It is their opinion, which they're eintitled to. If Borg says that Nadal is better than Federer because of the H2H, it is his opinion. You may disagree, but why is it so hard to respect someone else his opinion, instead of trying to shuffing your own opinion down someone else his throat?

To me a fan is someone who roots for a player and hopes he does his best and win. For me, if Federer loses, it's a shame... but I hope he bounces back and wins another day. Every player suffers a devastating defeat sometimes... Tuesday's Nadal suffered one, Djokovic suffered one yesterday, Federer suffered one during the RG 2008 final... it happens. You can't change the past... but you can influence the future. Let's see what the players can do for the next matches and in 2012 :-)

Watching last year's WTF final now, my goodness, both were so quick around the court. Rafa is definitely much slower this year and Fed only slightly. It's a brilliant final with some fantastic points and rallies. Though Rafa lost that final, I feel that they both played well and Fed played better. Nice match. Rafa is no where near that level now but Fed is still good. Will they meet again this year in the final? Fingers crossed.

Well said Bonker, I agree with you 100%.

Federer isn't necessarily slower, I think he didn't need to be any quicker than he was.

Fed looks slower to me, not just in the Rafa match. The court looks very slow this year, watching the rallies, it's like slow-mo movie. The ball travels so slowly it seems.

Rafa knew before the match that he couldn't win that's why he said he'd still have a chance to qualify if he lost.

The big difference between Fed last year and this year. Last year he was at the end of a great run. He played so much (including Asian swing) that he needed to pipe down in december.

This year he had the opportunity to thread this november run as a first step in his reatking the tennis throne. He will be able after WTF (win or lose) provided he stays healthy to implemate his first major trainingsblock. That would be the first time since 2006 when he was still TMF. This was the TMF trainings methology.

Fed defintely was not slow on the court against Raf maybe the courts at WTF are slower then last year but Fed is mentally atleast in a better shape then last year. He now knows that Rafa fears him. Fed knows he can have his way with Rafa again and probably will beat Rafa if they meat in final.

The difference was so big that it is safe to say that he will have his way with him on the HC where they play in januari - februari. Leaving only Murray/Djokovic as his biggest and stronghest opponents. Well Murray and DJokovic need time off and they are probably not ready for the first slam. Because that is very quickly arriving.

If he can maintain unbeaten run he can built on that and ride the wave atleast through AO Open.

Very good times are upon us Fedfans!

Hope you're right Sienna. What a joy it would be for Roger to start winning slams again. And it would shut up a lot of people.

^^^^^^^hope springs eternal!

So final match prep is under way. Is this the thread for the Nadalmatch?

i thought it might be nice to discus his relationship with T in all its facets.
I have seen that some Nadalfans are seriously touching the subject. So a few weeks ago I already embraced the issue. And well the Nadalclan did not take it light heartedly, but now there are some Rafa fans who share the same view. Maybe we could try and share our views about the T situation?

First a like to make a statement and lets see how we fair from that?

In order for Rafa to get forward or to get out of his slump he needs to break with T definitely.

sienna, call Rafa and tell him directly instead of boring us with the same drivel ad nauseum................................I doubt Rafa reads TT........

Fellow fedfans this is a beautifull thread. We are keeping it alive no matter what!

C'MoN!

On the hunt for #6