Finally the ghost is out off the botle. Lets see if it gets picked up because Spain is riding this free ride a bit to lond. It cost me a fu..ing Wolrdcup trofee, So bring it on. Cheaters!! Noah is a hero for speaking up.

sienna, you need help...........seriously. YOU HAVE A PROBLEM......................

I want to caution everyone to be careful about what you put into your comments. As far as I am concerned, Noah was completely out of line, pointing fingers at an ENTIRE COUNTRY with no proof except that Spain is better at sports than France.

Tennistalk does not permit doping allegations in the comments section, so please take care.

Ao contraire.
I feel that inetrnational ruling must be used to investigate all these allegations. Let there be acomitte to investigate Spain as a country. Its only sport and games but much to serious to let this fullscale in justice play out like this. Obviously it is from the top down and it takes multiple sports to consider. They think to get away with murder... They nearly did. it is something like the olddays when the and sovjet and eastern european country were still in the picture winning gold medals all over the place.

Like we have not witnessed it ourselves with the soviets and east germany and China..... They were all superviced by their own counsil or union.

Doping is hard enough to ban out but when it is used by govermenst then we have serious problems.

You did remember that the spanish cycling counsil did not takeany ation against Contador?

What sour grapes. We all know that today's athletes are under much more scrutiny than ever before. I used to like him and thought it was great when he won the French Open. How can he come out with something like that? Where is his irrefutable proof? I am even more upset that a French paper even published something like this.

Well Sienna you got your wish - by the way be careful who you call cheaters - as I recall the Dutch soccer team tried a few things, resulting in fouls, to beat the Spanish team because it was obvious from what I saw that they could not do it by playing better football.

Sorry Cheryl

How does anyone enhance their performance by doping in sports like football and tennis? The skills required for these sports are not to do with endurance alone. You can run all day as much as you like but it will not make you pass the ball better or save a goal in football, or serve and hit your strokes better in tennis.

Obviously, the cat that's out of the bag is that France in jealous of Spain's prowess in sport. Simple.

nadline,

The same argument was made with Barry Bonds and playing baseball. Steroids did not make it any easier for him to hit a curve ball but when he hit it, it went a lot farther than anybody else.

Furthermore, if you believe PEDs don't improve performance in tennis, then why would they be banned? Obviously they do hence they're banned.

Thanks to Johan for writing this since we've had handcuffs on talking about this subject before now.

As far as Noah, he's a pothead like his son who plays for the Chicago Bulls so he has no room to talk. Plus he has no proof so it looks like jealousy. Why did he not mention Argentina since some of their players have actually been caught doping? As far as making doping legal, well that says where his head is.

numero, recreation drugs are also banned and they are not performance enhancing. In fact they have the opposite effect.

Well unless you live in Amsterdam, most recreational drugs are banned for all citizens, not just athletes so that goes without saying. We were talking about PEDs.

If you hit a ball as far as it will go in tennis you will lose the point. Tennis is about keeping the ball withn boundaries.

Actually in Spain (& Portugal) recreational drugs have been decriminalised for years!

nadline,

Come on now. I know you've got to be smarter than that. Flat hitters like Delpo and Soderling can hit anybody off the court. Harder hitting is beneficial when hitting downward as well as increased rpm when hitting topspin shots.

I find it curious that some Rafans have to disagree with whatever I post even at the risk of making themselves look idiotic.

So we are revisiting this issue yet again? Unbelievable!

Some people just cannot leave it alone. Talk about getting your wish. Any excuse to dredge up the same old nonsense.

Flat hitters like Delpo and Soderling can hit anybody off the court. Harder hitting is beneficial when hitting downward as well as increased rpm when hitting topspin shots.

I find it curious that some Rafans have to disagree with whatever I post even at the risk of making themselves look idiotic.

numero , 11/21/11 8:00 PM


If hard hitting is all it takes, why are they not at the top of the game. Talk about being idiotic.

nadline,

Try to be a bit objective and think. You asked how could doping enhance your tennis performance. Let me break it down for you.

If you have a good serve but it's only 120 mph, don't you think taking PEDs and getting a 150 mph serve would help?

If you have good technique but your ground strokes top out at about 80 mph, don't you think taking PEDs and hitting 100+ mph ground strokes would help?

If you can play great tennis for 3 hours then get tired, don't you think taking PEDs and playing for 6+ hours without getting tired would help?

If you hit great top spin shots but your revolutions per second are 2500, don't you think taking PEDs and hitting 3500 would help?

It's clear to any reasonable person that taking PEDs can help you play better tennis.

Nowhere did I say that hard hitting is ALL it takes to be at the top of the game. Your comments are positively bizarre!

PEDs are not a panacea however and you still need some basic talent. There are some things that PEDs won't help, like keeping one's cool and playing well under pressure.

It is about out of the b+ue the spanish atletes are suddenly like almost overnight killing it all over the sports. It is not necctennis but we see it in all sports.
Spain was not very impresive as a sporting nation the last decades and since this decade kabeng....
Either we as a european commission allow them to invest to much money in sports. Money they do not have or there is som estructurule cheating going on. And it should be investigated.
Starting with tennis;-) (kidding)

numero, I admit that you outflank me on PEDs. I've no clue what they can or cannot enable anyone to achieve, so I take your word for it. I wouldn't know a PED if it hit me in the eye so my comments are based on what I perceive to be logical.

Noah said that the talk in the bars he frequents is all about how to dope and get away with it. If that's the case I'd be worried about the French athletes rather than the Spanishl, as I'm pretty sure the bars he frequents are in France. Even a high school student knows that a broad, overgeneralized statement such as Noah's has no merit, and was only meant to sensationalize. He's obviously a sad little man, and yes, as Rafa said, STUPID. If beefy equals peds, then he needn't go all the way to Spain to find a culprit. Tsonga is as beefy as anyone on the tour, Andy Murry, and Berdych could also qualify as beefcakes, so I have no idea what he's thinking. Some have actually accused Fed of using ped's because of his outstanding play. But those are people who all have an ax to grind, whether it's Fed or Rafa. It's never been substantiated in even the slightest way.

Berdych a beefcake? I'd hate to see your SO Maya if you think the Berd is a beefcake.

Poor Frenchman, he is so loaded with jealousy and helplessness...what happened to him? His singing is not bringing him enough publicity so he wants to get attention in some rather pathetic way...I see where his despair comes from: the Olympics are just around the corner and the Spanish taking numerous gold medals again is what hurts Noah...I do feel sorry for the guy...how miserable one can be to accuse the whole nation...it is nothing but stupid and not worth talking about..

For me... everyone is innocent untill proven otherwise. I don't believe that Nadal is on doping.... Imagine what this would do to tennis. One of it's biggest stars en multiple slam winner on doping. It would be an immense blow to the sport!

Yawn..................

"I don't believe that Nadal is on doping.... Imagine what this would do to tennis. One of it's biggest stars en multiple slam winner on doping. It would be an immense blow to the sport!", Bonker

Wouldn't that be a great reason for the ATP bosses to try and cover up some possible situations? Let me answer it for you, YES.

Bleck, I don't think that the ATP will see this as a great reason because of:

- Federer/Nadal sells big time, people want to see them and wear the clothes and so on. Federer/Nadal are still the face of tennis...

- Tennis is a pretty clean sport, with a few exceptions. Unlike cycling, where the trophies are earned in the court of law... This wouldn't give tennis a boost, quite the opposite. It would put tennis in a bad spotlight. And that won't sell...

@ 12:59 AM
Natashao has hit the nail on the head. Yannick has made a career out of appearing on the numerous and mindless French TV panel shows featuring B-list celebrities chatting aimlessly amongst themselves. Coming out with contentious remarks in a national newspaper will ensure those invites continue to roll in so he has the chance to promote his latest album by singing while the audience clap along with him.

It's pathetic that a once great sportsman should besmirch today's sportsmen in this way on the eve of the WTF where two of his countrymen are appearing. Had it been on the eve of the Tour de France that would've been another matter.

Bonker, I said that was a good readon for the ATP officials to cover the situation up not bring it out to public domain. An hypothetical situation if I might add.

10:48 AM I want to clarify when I said 'on the eve of the Tour de France that would've been another matter.'

That is not to say I condone his wild accusations of all Spanish sportsmen. But to raise the issue of doping in sport would be more understandable in the context of the TdeF - a sport which has a notorious record in that respect.

I'd urge some of you to take a look at the systems in Spain for tennis and how they train there, the work ethic is way greater than what you would find in France or the UK. This applies more so to junior tennis, where the foundations of successful athletes are built.

Certain incidents regarding Spain's anti-doping measures are suspicious, to say the least. But to assume that Nadal dopes, and gets away with it is a bit far fetched unless the ATP and the other top players are in cohorts with each other.

Sampra: Why would the ATP crack down so hard on recreational drugs and look the other way when it comes to PEDs?

I don't know, but the ATP have done some mighty suspicious things in the past, incidents involving high profile players such as Agassi. Here's how the conspiracy works: You crack down on recreational drugs and PED usage that involves lesser players, the loss of whom wont really affect the business and then gives the public the idea that they're doing their level best to combat doping. But you protect the big fish, and allow them to dope since it helps business.

Just an outlandish theory on my part :D But, the ATP/ITF aren't transparent enough with their anti-doping activity, so we don't really know if they're as strict about anti-doping as they claim to be.

I like to think that tennis is clean. Would be a real blow if this was factually untrue.

To me if anyone wants to be suspicious against Rafa, then they should also be suspicious against all the other top guys too. Why only pick on Rafa, just because he's from Spain. What about other advance countries, well known in their drug industries? Shouldn't that make it even easier for it's atheletes to obtain the use of the so called PEDs?

Every tennis player should be subjected to the same level of scrutiny, whereever he is from.

"Every tennis player should be subjected to the same level of scrutiny, whereever he is from." That's true luckystar, but this article is about Spain, which includes the spanish tennis players.

But if a big player of the game gets caught, then everyone else who does well is a suspect from that point on... i.e. if Nadal (which I don't believe) uses doping, then all the guys in the top 10, top 20 are suspects in my opinion.

Exactly bonker. Until they catch someone, in my eyes, all tennis players should be viewed with the same suspicions, especially the top guys. I don't see Rafa 'cheating' more than say Fed, Nole or Murray. Rafa like Fed is so consistent all these years, so if he's guilty of doping, the ATP or whichever auhority has to cover up for him, and so successfully, all these years, having to spend large sums of money 'bribing' all those who happened to come to know about it. Oh, that includes WADA too. And how do we know there's only one top guy that's guilty?

I think someone needs to go to specsavers if they think Berdych is not a beefcake. Have you seen his shoulders and legs as well as how tall he is? He makes Rafa and Roger look like whippets.

Does it strike anyone else as bizarre that there is a strict rule about not posting comments imputing involvement with doping and yet space was allocated to Yannick's claim that doping is rife throughout all Spanish sports.

Cheryl issued a warning at the beginning of this thread but this has not prevented insinuations creeping in under the guise of discussing the article.

Whatever anyone's private view of the subject, unless a player is the subject of a doping investigation - in which case the rule should be Not-Guilty until proved Guilty - names should not be bandied about however hypothetical the argument.

Ed - I agree, but unfortunately, Noah's "accusations" are news. We are a full-service tennis news site and we can't ignore a story like this, however repugnant and inflammatory it might be.

I've already deleted a few posts, but on the whole, people have behaved far better than I'd expected.

It was great of Michael Llodra to apologise to Rafa in person - takes guts to do that. Rafa has always had his fair share of comments questionning his biceps and stamina, spin rotations etc.

I do not believe there is any evidence of doping in tennis or other sports and if Noah had any concrete evidence he would have provided it willingly. Like Ed, I believe that people are innocent until proven guilty.

Yes, I've said it before when I made my point on doping - if Nadal is doping and getting away with it, chances are that most players in the top 10/20 are. People single out Nadal because of his musculature and make the connection with steroids, but EPOs don't result in musculature, just amazing amounts of stamina after grueling points/sets.

No one has concrete evidence that anyone is doping, but circumstances surrounding certain events in tennis have been suspicious. I am not going to point them out in this forum, if anyone needs to find out, they can just use Google. The biggest problem we have so far is that the ITF/ATP are not transparent at all when it comes to their anti-doping programme.

Another FACT we do know is that the ATP isn't beyond malpractice. We saw what happened with Andre Agassi and the meth incident, so its not altogether stupid to assume that they're doing similar things today, especially when you see them phunking to provide clear information to the public about tests and incidents surrounding testing etc.

My question is, can they do it year in year out to protect one guy, unless we're assuming here that guy only doing doping once in a while. Also now it involves more relevant authorities, more so than during Agassi's time. So if one guy can do that, I think nothing will stop the other guys, especially those top guys, from doing the same. So if we want to be suspicous against one, we have to be suspicous against the others too.

OMG! So many comments... And about what?
One gossip queen had copy/pasted few sentences from ex tennis player... Mumbo jumbo comments are coming out from canabis smoke cloud from one third grade musician who thinks that hair style is enough to play a good regae music.... LOL!
Ridiculous!

The ATP has NOTHING to do with drug testing any more. Obviously I need to write a blog about this.

Testing is run by WADA, an independent body. When Agassi was caught, testing was still run by individual sports. This is true no longer. The ATP CAN'T (literally) cover up for ANY player any more. That's why the format was changed, for the very reason that people would point fingers and claim that TPTB were protecting their cash cows.

^^ I don't think you're 100% correct there, Cheryl. WADA has stated that result management and disclosure of results is up to the ITF. I'm guessing the ATP influences the ITF's decisions in some way as well.

The ATP and the ITF, while not bitter enemies they also aren't good friends. As far as I can tell, they barely tolerate each other's presence.

My statement stands. The ATP has not a whit of jurisdiction when it comes to doping. And you can bet if any top player had EVER tested positive, we'd have heard about it.

http://emiliosanchezvicario.wordpress.com/2011/11/22/they´re-special-s ame-as-you-were-french-english-spanish/

They both have huge stakes in the business that tennis is. WADA isn't being open about the publication of results or testing procedures, passing the buck over to the ITF, which has also maintained secrecy. So I'm not sure how you are so sure we'd have heard about it.

Was it the ITF that found cocaine in Gasquets blood. They certainly didn't remain secret about that, and Gasquet was touted as one of the great up and comers at the time. That was terrible news for France. I'm convinced that if Nadal had ever tested dirty, the ITF would have been more than happy to make those results known.

Cheryl,

Thank you for stating the facts regarding WAD, an independent body, now being responsible for testing. I am surprised that people here would not know this fact. It is also true that when Agassi was caught, this body did not exist and testing was done by the very organization which had a vestes interest in hiding this result.

I wish you would do a blog on the subject and give people facts in lieu of some of the more absurd speculation that is written on this subject.

That's all I have to say on this subject.

Sorry, typos in my previous post. I meant to say WADA.

Also "vested" interest in hiding this result.