Hope you get over your cold quickly.

Get well soon Roger and take the WTF. :)

Ai that might affect his chances. We can only hope for the best now.
Anyway he showed the tennisworld he means bussiness in 2012.
When injury free I feell a mighty year commingup.

One thing is for sure -- Roger is physically in better shape than the rest of the top contenders. Those indoor courts suit him well...I wouldn't be suprised if he were to win a second consecutive title.

I'd have to say for the first time in a long time Roger is the clear favorite to win. This Bercy performance was the best I've seen in years start to finish in the same tournament. He was in spectacular form in the Berdych match and very good in the other matches too. So many times in recent years he's looked distracted and easily lost focus. Not this week. He was focused the whole tournament.

The best thing a performance like this did was instill fear in the other players again. Tsonga had beaten him twice this year. Berdych had beaten him. Gasquet had even beaten him albeit on clay. He took care of them easily. Plus it doesn't hurt to be 5 time and defending champ. I hope this momentum continues.

He's in great shape, but there are still a few question marks out there:

- Can Djokovic's his body hold for one final push and play lights out tennis once more this year? He looks weary.
- And what about Nadal... will his season go out like a candle in the wind or will he be back with a bang?
- Can Murray bring his Asian form? Because I see him as the other great favorite for the title.
- No doubts about Federer. He's fit and ready to rumble!

I don't see anyone else winning the WTF. Ferrer will pick of anyone who has a bad day... but that won't be enough to win the WTF. Fish is out of form and he has minor injuries. I don't see him winning a single match.

Tsonga and Berdych are inconsistent. They can beat anyone when they're in the zone, but they can also lose all their matches. But it all depends on the draw!

For roger to take a 17 winning streak into 2012 that would be awesome.
Just hope roger wins at least a GS next year that's all I ask.

But first things first the WTF await. Good luck Roger.

His form has been impressive. It's by FAR the best I've seen him play in at least a year, maybe more. It's like he's gotten his balance back or something. I remember when he was dominating, every shot was perfectly timed and he was always in the right position. That's how he looked in Paris.

The second set of the final, Fed didn't play that great. It's Tsonga who let his own chances slipped away. Against anyone of the top three guys, Fed won't be so fortunate. Fed vs Berdych in the semifinal was more impressive. It seems to me that these days, Fed can't sustain his level on consecutive days. He's good against Gasquet, not that good against Monaco; played great against Berdych but not so great against Tsonga.

We can't compare Tsonga against the top three guys, they're alot quicker and sharper than Tsonga for sure. Tsonga made some boneheaded shot selections too during the match. Had he converted his breakpoint chances and took the second set, I'm sure he had a great chance of winning the match, for Fed looked tired in the second set already, probably due to his cold.

I heard Tsonga is still coachless, and I feel he badly needs one. To me both Berdych and Tsonga do not have good anticipatory skills and Fed exposed their shortcomings during the matches. Contrast that to the top three guys, all three are very quick and anticipate well where Fed will be hitting and so we'll see many of Fed's balls being returned, and that's why they're top three and Berdych and Tsonga fall below Fed.

I have never felt that Tsonga had a great tennis brain. I don't if he is thinking about there on court as much as reacting. When his serve goes, it seems to affect his whole game. Sod was much the same way. Tsonga likes to bludgeon the ball. Finesse is not his thing.

I agree that a coach would help. I found myself yelling to Tsonga in the match with Isnerm slow it down, take a little time! He plays at a fast pace and sometimes that it not always to his advantage. If you are struggling in a tight match, it's not a bad thing to try to take a few breaths and get yourself together.

While I will concede that Fed is the frontrunner, I don't see him as an overwhelming favorite. Murray loves these indoor hard courts and has been playing some great tennis in the fall hardcourt season. The question is, will he be totally healthy and ready to go? No niggling little problems. As far as Nole, I honestly have no idea what to expect from him these days. He could come out like gangbusters, for all I know.

Rafa is the biggest unknown. He has not played for a while now. Will the rest help him mentally or will he be out of form a bit. This is not the tournament to try to work your way into form. Playing against the top eight is an unforgiving format. I am looking forward to seeing him on court again.

NNY, didn't Rafa skip Paris last year too but it turned out OK for him as he reached the final last year? He's the only one getting a set off Fed, performed better than Nole or Murray against Fed, not forgetting on his least favorite surface and when the others were on one of their favorite surfaces.

To me Fed played better last year than this year at this time of the year, remember who he beat at Basel final last year? He lost in the semi of Paris last year but he did have match points, and I feel that had he reached the final then, he had good chance of winning against Sod.

Last year Rafa came out rusty against Roddick but he still beat him. This year his first match should be against either Fish or Berdych, so let's see how soon Rafa needs to get into his game. I'm positive that Rafa will reach the semifinal at least and he may end up meeting Nole in the semifinal instead (of meeting him in the final).

lucky,

No way did Roger play better last year. Surely you either didn't watch last year or forgot. He won Stockholm in unspectacular fashion. Yes he beat Nole in the final at Basel but that was gluten-filled Nole and he basically called it quits in the third set with a slew of errors.

At Bercy, he dumped a sure match point in the net against Monfils. As far as WTF goes, Murray did not show up mentally in front of the home crowd. Roger admitted as much by saying he was shocked at how poorly he played. Nole had one eye looking at DC so he didn't play that well either. Finally, no way he should have dropped a set in the final, a sign that he wasn't at his best but still was better than all the others.

Contrast that to this year where he didn't drop a set in Bercy and was in fantastic form against Berdych in particular and great against the others. This is the most focused I've seen him look in years. If this keeps up he won't lose at WTF.

yes, I agree with numero that Federer is playing better this year than he did at this time last year. As far as the WTF, I do consider him the favourite consider him to be the favourite for the simple reason that no one is playing better at this point.

I didn't even watch Basel or Paris last year. So can't speak to those tournaments. I thought Fed played his best match of the year against Nole in the USO semifinal. Up until then I thought it was the RG semifinal, but I thought he came out sharper and serving better and really on his game at the USO. That was a match he should have won.

What I respect about Fed is how he knows his body and manages his schedule. He was tired or had some niggling injuries, so he took a nice bit of time off skipping the entire Asian swing and knowing that Murray might take the #3 ranking from him. But he was looking at the big picture. He made sure he was ready for Basel, Paris and the WTF. It looks like this was a very smart strategy. He looks extremely sharp and focused. You have to give him credit for being able to play this kind of tennis at his age. He is not content just to play, but to be competitive and win titles.

I never think anyone is a sure bet. All I will concede is that Fed is playing some high quality tennis and is the favorite. However, I don't think that the other seven players are going to roll over.

Do remember Fed didn't have a long break last year. He reached the final at Shanghai and played at Stockholm the following week, how do you expect him to play well at Stockholm then? Taking that into consideration, I think he played well at Basel after just one week's rest, despatching both Roddick and Nole. I wasn't really impressed with Fed at the Basel final this year, simply because Nishikori wasn't at his best, after his montrous effort in taking out a not so top form Nole. Sometimes Fed's opponents made him looked better than it actually was.

He did look good against Berdych, but Berdych wasn't well rested like Fed. I feel that had Berdych played the way he played at Beijing, hitting deep penetrating shots, Fed won't be able to boss him around, though Fed might still beat him but not that easily. As I've mentioned Fed wasn't playing that well in the second set of the Paris final, a better opponent than Tsonga would have capitalized on that.

We may be getting ahead of ourselves here, how the top eight guys would perform we can only speculate. Fed at the WTF last year, though not having much rest, after competing at Shanghai, Stockholm, Basel and Paris, still served and moved so well. In fact he was really impressive in his serving, remember how no one managed to return his serve out wide at the deuce court? Can he do the same this year? That's my question.

It's also strange that número feels that no way Fed could drop a set in last year's final, taking into consideration his opponent being Rafa. However well Fed played last year, he's still not the TMF of 2006 and Rafa wasn't the Rafa of 2006 either (but playing a better hard court game now), getting a set off Fed in the final wasn't anything surprising, when Rafa did have his chances but mishit a few forehand shots.

If Fed played like he did in the Paris final, at least one of the top three guys would capitalize on that. One thing about the WTF, the RR matches are played with one day's rest in between, that works well for Fed (he admitted it last year during one of his interviews).

Also Roddick did play well last year at Basel, despatching Nalby in the previous round. In fact I was surprised then by how well Roddick played, yet he promptly lost to Fed in the semifinal. Roddick didn't play well this year, not only at Basel but in many tournaments too.

Wherever tennis is being discussed the decision is unanimous. TMF is back.

Each year we see the toll the Asian swing takes on those who go there and how weary they are by the time they get to Paris and the WTF.

Federer knew he could be relegated to No.4 by not going there but took the time out anyway in favour of the longer term goal. If he continues his winning streak and defends his WTF title, what a smart decision that will prove to have been.

Hoping the Andy, who showed up in Bangkok, turns up in London and spoils the show :) However, with Andy, who knows?

In my opinion Roger is the favourite going into the WTF.
Djokovic isn't in the best shape so I expect him not to make it very far in the tournament. In the semis I think we'll have Roger, murray, nadal and either Berdych, Tsonga or Ferrer.

Bleck: So Djokovic is downgraded? How the mighty can fall!
Many questioned how well Nole would cope with being placed on a pedastal. If doubts are creeping into his mind it will have an effect on his performance even without the handicap of injuries. The WTF will be a real test of his character.

ed, I'm just saying that he shouldn't get far if he's injured. If he somehow miraculously recovers and is 100% then I expect him to make the finals or semis depending on where he would meet Roger. If djokovic is 100% only Roger has a chance of beating him, in my opinion.

But I just can't overlook Djokovic's perfromances in Basel and Paris. Is 1 week enough to recover?! I don't know but I'm inclined to think he won't be 100%. And if that's the case then Berdych and Tsonga have the firepower to trouble Djokovic. Maybe if Djokovic, even injured, gets Fish and Ferrer in his group he might get to the semis. But an injured Djokovic wouldn't get past a rested nadal.

It'll definitely be one interesting tournament. Can't wait. The draw will have a huge importance should djokovic and/or murray not be 100%. I say this because Ferrer and Fish are much less dangerous than Berdych and Tsonga imo.

I would prefer Roger to be with nadal, ferrer and fish.

Semis should be Rafa - Djokovic

Roger - Murray (play for No 3)

Final should be Rafa v/s Federer


My wish list :-)

Just imagine the shockwaves if neither of the Top 4 reach semi..didnt that happen in 2009..I know Fed, Rafa, Djoko didnt make it to semi..not sure abt Murray..but final was Davy-Delpo

sanju, Federer was the only one of the top 4 who made the semis. He lost to Davydenko in a tight 3 setter.

oh ok..then was it 200 he didn't make the semis - the year Rafa didnt play due to injury?

I rem one of these years he didn't make the semis..was it 08 or 09?

Bleck: There's a lot riding on this one for sure.

The very format of the WTF makes it the hardest tournament to predict. It hinges (even more than usual that is) on who has the mental strength, self confidence, and stamina to last the course. Right now Roger ticks all the boxes 10/10. Like you I think there is a question mark over Djokovic but you cant count on either Andy or Nadal not to upset the applecart. Wishful thinking I hear you saying :-)

Deuce: the cliche was for your benefit :-)

ed, I obviously wish for Roger to win the WTF.

"but you cant count on either Andy or Nadal not to upset the applecart"
I merely said that right now Roger is the favourite and I think we can pretty much agree on that.
I even said that I'd expect Roger, murray and nadal to make the semis. Of course being the favourite doesn't mean Roger will win. Nadal's form is unknown given that he hasn't played for a while but he's always a "tough costumer", as Roger said.

Nole's major problem now is the shoulder injury. I think he made a mistake playing in Bercy after his loss in Basel where he looked bad because of his shoulder. He seemed to want to get in a few easy wins. He may see how his draw is at WTF and do the same thing. If he's still hurt he should just give his friend Janko a chance to play from the start.

If Roger is in Rafa's RR half (doubtful, but it should `normally` be the case) then all of this talk of Fed coasting this tournament shall be premature. Remember he has a problem dealing with Novak at the moment, he has no problem giving Roger a very hard time.
Our best chance of a Roger/Rafa match would not be a final (probably) now anyway.
Yes in the last week it can be said that Roger has the best form but who did he beat in Basle? Not a single top 10 player! Berdych & Tsonga are both quality but did not play their best matches against Roger in Paris & were clearly fatigued.
Until he plays one of the Top 3 in the RR I'm not going to hand this one to him, some people are getting a bit carried away.
As for Murray it is debatable this time that he won't show up mentally against federer in an Indoor 3 setter. Yes its occurred twice now, but last year it was more to do with coming in favorite against him after crushing him in China not playing in a RR stage match. This time he shall not be the favourite although should they meet in the final I would have to give it to Roger as it could then be the case that the pressure shall get the better of Murray as it usually does on the biggest stages, still Andy could always finally man up make a fight of it & have some kind of breakthrough. But regardless, this tournament is far from a forgone conclusion.

Andy, Nole, Berdych, Ferrer. Hmm, could've been better, could've been worse. Depends on Nole's injury, I guess.

What Nole & Andy?
Ker-CHING!
Are you serious Deuce? this is perfect, or at least better.
Although I would hope for another tremendous 3 setter betwixt Rafa & Andy (with Andy winning this time of-course) for me that was the best 3 setter in a long time.

sosueme, "Until he plays one of the Top 3 in the RR I'm not going to hand this one to him, some people are getting a bit carried away."

Why don't you tell us who you think is the favourite? You go around saying this and that. I haven't read in this thread anyone saying Roger will win for sure or is 90% favourite. All I'm saying is Roger is the favourite i.e. he has the best chance of all the players of winning. Of course it's my opinion, but several other people, even fans of other players, have the same opinion.

As I said in my other post, nadal hasn't played for a while. His form is unknown. Djokovic recovering in 1 week from the shoulder injury? I feel it is unlikely.

So federer and nadal will play each other. Nice.
Hope wee see federer-murray in the semis or final.

Sosueme, as Berdych just beat Andy, would've preferred Fish to him.

ooh, a little touchy there bleck eh?
I said I'll reserve my opinion until they start playing, but I'll give Roger provisional favourite status, if that makes you feel a bit better ;-)

So what Deuce?
Berdie had to play one of his best & took him over 3 hrs.
Murray had a shoulder problem that effected his serve a bit, hopefully he shall be rested & in the mood for a little revenge..

I do wonder if Nole will try to play? It seems like this injury simply isn't healing quickly. If he's not healthy, he might do well to simply let one of the alternates play in his stead.

sosueme, Not at all. It's just when I see you writing "all of this talk of Fed coasting this tournament" it urges me to set things straight.

Things to watch out in the WTF:
- what kind of form nadal will be in?!
- djokovic is fully recovered from injury?!
- can federer carry on his form against the top 3, this one's for you sosueme :)
- what murray will show up the asian swing one or the berdych one?
- can tsonga, berdych and ferrer win a match against the top 4?

Good luck Roger.

cheryl, Tipsaravic on Andy's side?...yummy..;)

deuce, lol :)

That would appeal to you, wouldn't it deuce? :D

@ 1:17 pm

We do know Bleck. We do know. Of course you hope to see Roger triumph next week. We absolutely understand that.

I wasn't implying you were discounting Rafa and Andy's chances or thought it was a given Roger will pull this one off. If I were a betting woman I might be tempted to put some money on it though.

I think a lot of tennis enthusiasts are pleased to see him back on form, if only for the chance of a Fedal, and what is more admire the way he has dealt with what must have been disappointing, sometimes humiliating defeats, to prove he is still TMF and the one to beat.

Sosueme, 11/15/11 2:13 PM After what has gone on for the last few weeks, it will to take a while for us all to stop twitching and 'seeing reds under the beds'.

The last thing I want.....................the Fed on his fav surface in Rafa's group. Rafa doesn't need his confidence dented early in the tournament. I can just see the Fed smiling, cheshire-cat like.....................

My prediction: Rafa/Muzza final with Rafa taking the whole enchilada.................

Slightly contradictory post RITB my sweet.
I think Rafa shall beat Roger this time as he's rested (unlike the last time).
He could win it however if Novak folds due to injury, but Andy was rather convincing last time the 2 met on a hardcourt so.
Anyway, I'm glad there is no real favourite for this title yet ;-)

^^^^^^^^not at all, Sos..............the first para is the head talking and the second is the heart........................

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/tennis/simon-reed/article/8003/

This is for all our Fedfan brethren on this site................

NEVER let the heart rule the head RITB,
Use the force instead :)

No, Sos...............................my heart has to win this time......why, my head is predicting a Fed win for goodness' sakes! I didn't mind such an outcome when Rafa was not in the draw (Basle, Paris and all those other puny tournies).............but now THE KING IS HERE!!!!

.......and of course, Fed has yet to get the memo..................

Aha! Federer in Nadal's group. Perfecto.

Semis - Nadal (winner of his group) vs Djokovic and Murray (winner of his) vs Federer
Finals - Nadal vs Murray
Winner - Nadal

:D

Put yer money where your mouth is Samps if you're so sure!

Clearly my heart is lodged firmly in samprallica's head...................!!!

"Aha! Federer in Nadal's group. Perfecto."

Couldn't agree more. Although the out come of the tournament will be different than your prediction, in my opinion.

Or your head is lodged firmly in his.....Joking RITB!
You know I love you!
;-)

Just a hunch. The scenario that I want is a Djokovic-Federer and Nadal-Murray semi, and Djokovic winning the tournament. But there is something about Nadal and his comebacks every so often that tells me he might surprise us all.

If I was just going with logic, the prediction would have to be Federer hammering everyone in sight and struggling a little with Murray in the final but winning. But Nadal has a way of messing with the man's head, and I sure hope he does.

Oh, you are nasty, Sos....................!!! I'll have you know that every crevice of Rafa's is fragrant..............euwww, that came out nasty!!!

Back to the tennis.......................

.................please don't ban me, Cheryl................I might bump into Fleur out there in purgatory!!!

Lol, I can see why some people might want to sue you. :P

C'mon Samps, admit it..................you are with the silent majority who miss Fleur, aren't you! I'm tempted to launch an online petition to TT to unban her......................

@Samps,
Don't believe the hype, Fed shall not be `hammering everyone one in sight`.
Although I'm sure you've just made Blech pee himself slightly.

If u launch a petition to unban her, I will launch one to ban you. And I will win :D

why me Samps? It was RITB that had to take it too far!

Haha, Sue you little double agent crook working for the fedfans. Trying to turn the rest of us against each other. ;)

call-me-Sos-not-Sue-samps!

merci

sosuEMO don't get down on youself. There's a life out there waiting for you.

And don't worry about me. And you say I'm a he? Who told you that?!

All your posts show how itching you are that federer has just won 2 titles and is in great form.
suspect you're a fed hater but you say you're not. Oh well.

And I'm sorry that my post bother you. They'll keep coming, you've been warned. lol :)

Seriously, I hope Nole and Rafa are in good nick physically......................I want to see the big four go at each other hammer and tongs!!!!

This again : (
Blech if I was a fed hater trust me I would make it very clear for all to see.
I mean its not like I would meet much resistance here, is it?
Murray's my favourite & well I'm a lot rougher on him than the maestro.
I just like teasing some players fans ;-) is all.
As for the big bad world, oh I'm out there living large in it alright (you just don't know about it).
You told me you were a `he` I believe.

me too RITB,
There should be blood on the walls!

This is a good opportunity for Roger to take down Rafa possibly even twice. If he beats him in RR and Rafa comes second Rafa would have to beat likely Andy (if Nole isn't fit as I suspect) to get to the final though. If Nole's healthy by chance, no shot for Rafa.

My prediction : Roger taking down Andy in the final. Andy would retain #3 but winning WTF is more important.

Yes numero. Roger for the win is the most sure bet at this moment.

Roger taking the title it's the most important thing. Especially important would be the momentum it would give him going into 2012.

Go Roger!!!!

If I see Roger beat Rafa in the RR stage then there is some real life in the old dog yet! He will then almost certainly take the WTF & be hot fav for the AO.
Quite big `If` however.

OK... my prediction.... Fish injured retired... Tipsy is taking the trophy:))
...
...
Well there are so many unknown factors here... that my prediction seems good as any other...
We will have to wait 4 more days... I just hope that we will see some good tennis...
Healthy Nole...
Rafa in top form...
Muzza from Asia...
Fed in good shape...
...and then... fasten yout seat belt.... here we go!!!!

Clearly there isn't a favourite to win this tournament.

Well something also tells me that I would tend to agree with RITB andSampra about Rafa surprising us..I am not saying he will win the whle thing, but maybe hell fix the demons in his head and surprise us .

Its good he has to play Fish first..may give him some confidence as his first match

Rafa has always lost to Fed in WTF indoors..lets see if he will turn the tables this time ..

I want Rafa - Djokovic semi and Fed-Murray semi..and Rafa to beat Djoko this time..It is important he beats Djoko to get his mojo back and for it to be a very entertaining rivalry next year unlike 6 in a row.If he beats Nole on his least favorite surface, it will add to his confidence big time

and I am surprised with the authority with which people say that Rafa can never get past a healthy Nole..how can anyone be so certain? because of 6 losses in a row?

Well Fed lost to Rafa 5 or 6 in a row too between 08-09 , however he did beat him twiceafter that at Madrid in 09 and WTF 10

^^^Roger wasn't getting beaten in straight sets on his favorite surface. Did you forget Madrid and Rome?

This one is wide open, bring it on :)

I don't necessarily agree with this idea that Fed winning the WTF will give him momentum going into the 2012 AO. Fed won it last year and how did that work out for him in the 2011 AO? He was beaten soundly by Nole in the semis. So I don't quite get that line of reasoning.

Obviously, this is Fed's best surface, one on which he has excelled. He has just won two titles, one a Master's after only winning one title all year. So it does put him in a good place going into this tournament. His strategy of skipping the Asian swing was a wise one and it has paid off. Fed has always known his body and planned his schedule accordingly to be in his best form for slams and tournaments like WTF. I agree he is the favorite going in, but I am not about to hand it to him.

I am anxious to see Rafa and get an idea of where his game is at after taking time off. I always get confused with the RR format, so I have to pay attention to the people who have got it down.

I think Nole should have skipped Basel. He has a huge lead in points, the #1 ranking is secure, so why push it? He suffered an embarrassing loss to Nishikori and seems to have aggravated that shoulder. I don't know what to think about him right now. If he is healthy, then he will definitely be a contender. If the shoulder is still a problem, then all bets are off.

I think Andy is going to come into this on a mission. He did seem to be battling some little niggling injury or maybe was a bit tired. I think Berdy beating him may have been a good thing, so that he could take it easy before WTF. This is his home crowd and a surface that is well suited to his game. I think he will make a strong run. I am not predicting a win for him or anyone, for that matter.

No one is a sure thing when you have the top eight players in the world in an event. I want to see Rafa play before I can make any predictions as to his chances. Fed has the advantage against him on this surface, but if Rafa is in good form then he will make a battle of it. The one player I don't really want him to face is Nole, especially if he is healthy. I don't know if Rafa is psychologically ready at this point to take him on.

We can all make our predictions, but it's what happens on the court that counts. I can't wait!

Actually when I suggested Roger beating a rested Nadal I meant he would be a favourite for the AO NNY, not `just` winning the WTF. I mean come on Rafa obviously has had Roger's number for eons!

I don't necessarily agree with this idea that Fed winning the WTF will give him momentum going into the 2012 AO. Fed won it last year and how did that work out for him in the 2011 AO? He was beaten soundly by Nole in the semis. So I don't quite get that line of reasoning...
NNY
I can tell you why it is.

Last year Fed has played a huge amount of tennis leading up to the WTF. Now he is from a 6 weeks period and he is in the built up to thenew year. After WTF he take 2weeks of to get ready for his 1e and most prominent traibgsblock. Last year he could not get that away in december because he had to much played leading up to it. This year is different and he is only getting his body and mind in set for januari.

So where WTF was last year the last toiurnement of a long list he felt taking time off from training. He ow look at it as a midstage of climing the fitness ladder....

Coming into shape is not as easy as it may seem.
They need match practise , injury free, mindset, body ready, and comitment and of course ladyluck to waver a matchpoint or two in a semi!.

Sienna,

You may well be right. We will have to see. I thought there was a reason why Fed took that time off, skipping the Asian swing and risking losing the #3 ranking in the short term. He has obviously made the right decision. It has paid off for him.

I respect Fed's love for the sport. I also respect the fact that he can produce this kind of tennis at this point in his career. He seems to always find motivation to keep working to play his best.

We will wait to see if you are right. Fed can only control himself. What happens with the other top players up to them. However, I think it's safe to say that they are not going away.

I look forward to great tennis in 2012! It's a good thing!

numero, I can't help myself after reading your post of 11/15/11 8.22PM. So who beat Fed in straight sets on his favorite surface at the IW Masters in 2004?

NNY & sienna - don't forget Rafa is also well rested this time, while Fed had already played some tennis. Rafa has the DC final and an exho in Argentina, which means another three matches only after the WTF. Thereafter, both Fed and Rafa will be involved in the Abu Dhabi exho at end of the year. I don't see Fed having any advantage over Rafa in terms of preparation for the AO, not forgetting AO is an outdoor hard court event and on slower surface, a surface which now favor the top three guys more than an older Fed now. Fed is still better on fast courts, especially indoor ones, than on slower courts.

Correction: should be Miami Masters of 2004 I/O IW Masters.

Sienna, Last year he played djokovic 1.0 in the WTF and then lost to djokovic 2.0 in AO. Certainly you'll agree with me when I say that should Roger beat nadal, djokovic and murray in the WTF it would give him a lot of confidence. Certainly better than if he loses against any of the top 4.

Taking an hypothetical 17 match winning streak and 3 tournaments in a row, with wins against the top 4, can't see a much better momentum builder than that.

P.S.:Unless murray 2.0 decides to show up next year, lol.

lucky,

Good job in pointing out that Rafa will be well rested. If the exho in Argentina, to which you are referring, is the one with Rafa and Ferrer I have heard on a Rafa fan forum that it has been cancelled due to lack of sponsors.

Is that the exho to which you were referring? If so, that gives Rafa more rest.

Rafa's game is more suited to the slower hard courts at the AO, so I expect him to have a good chance there. As long as he is healthy, no viral infections, then I look for him to do very well there.

NNY, I'm not sure the one that's cancelled is the Argentina one. I thought it was rumored that Rafa is going to Mexico or Brazil next year for the exho so I thought it's this one that's being cancelled.

Anyway, just hope that Rafa is fit and healthy for the AO next year, unlike this year's AO. I hope to see the Rafa of AO 2009 appearing, enough of injuries or illness already. Poor Rafa was injured at two consecutive AOs, no more of that please!

Wow! This lengthy thread has managed to remain civil...crevices notwithstanding, of course. ;)

LIKE!

You wont hear the c-word out of me again, cheryl........................on condition Sos behaves himself and refrains from making digs (absolutely no pun intended) at our Rafa's expense......................

Vamos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

numero, I can't help myself after reading your post of 11/15/11 8.22PM. So who beat Fed in straight sets on his favorite surface at the IW Masters in 2004?
Correction: should be Miami Masters of 2004 I/O IW Masters.
luckystar, 11/16/11 9:57 AM

Correct. It was Miami. I've pointed out before that Roger suffered from sun/heatstroke at IW the week before so it's no wonder he lost first match the next tournament.

There is no Djokovic thread so I am going to say it right here:

This is the end of the season and time is right for me to say, chapeau, to Nole's fans. I have envied your joy this year. Your man's success against my man has driven me to distraction. Too good.

I am looking forward to next season, and to my man returning the compliment......

Bottle 2011 and put it on the mantelpiece, for posterity, well-earned....................because that's it, basta, finis, done, there ain't no repeat!

The bull, is here......................................

You see número, you come out with excuses. Do know that Rafa also suffered from fever at Rome, but we're not allowed to say that his fitness suffered because of that! What about Fed losing in the first and second matches at IW and Miami 2007? Or losing to Murray in the early round at Cincy 2006? Did he suffer from any illness? At least Rafa didn't lose in the first two
rounds on clay, except at Rome one year.

Also Rafa did lose in clay court finals before, like he lost to Fed at Hamburg 2007, and lost in straight sets to Fed at Madrid 2009. Rafa wasn't playing as well as he did like last year, his five sets win over Isner at RG this year was a good testament to that.

OK back to the main topic, Fed takes the favorite role entering London. I can't remember whether he was considered the favorite last year, or Nole in 2009 for that matter. Nole was also brillant at the end of the 2009 season, winning Beijing, reached the semifinal of Shanghai, won Basel and Paris but ran out of steam at London. Fed should be fresher this year than the last, so yeah, he may top his group without losing a match. From there we shall see who he'll meet in the semifinal.

I feel he does not take it but it is forced on him. Ofcourse Fed never backs out of a situation like that. Never downplays his chances.
There is somethiong Rafa should try to embrace. But Djokovic will not be set a side so easiley he will have his spotlight upon him.
But it is always nive to come into the main poort just arriving after the Suisse Maestro. It is such a comfortable feeling they all have. But is is not the way it should be.
It is their era, their limelight, their prime.
Giving the edge to a 30yr old and downplaying theyre own chances. It makes me sick!


(almost;-))

lucky,

You have gone off on a tangent and far away from what sanju and I were originally discussing. Your posts really have gone downhill.


Bottle 2011 and put it on the mantelpiece, for posterity, well-earned....................because that's it, basta, finis, done, there ain't no repeat!

The bull, is here......................................
rafaisthebest, 11/16/11 3:38 PM

Talk about a back-handed compliment. You have no way of knowing what Nole will do next year just because he is hurt now. His #1 goal will be to win RG and complete his career GS so the bull had better be wary.

numero, my post didn't go downhill, it's you who always like to take jabs at Rafa that caused the backlash. First, I see nothing wrong in sanju's posts, saying that Rafa may get back at Nole, quoting Rafa/Fed as an example. Well you mentioned about Rafa losing in straight sets on his favorite surface, didn't Fed also lose in straight sets on his favorite surface too? And can you tell me, didn't Fed came back to beat these opponents next time he met them? So why can't Rafa do the same, as proven by him beating Fed at Madrid 2010 (& 2011) after having lost to him in 2009? So, by quoting all those examples of Fed's early round losses, it also serves as a reminder that even the no.1 player can lose in the early rounds too, so Rafa isn't that bad either.
Whether Rafa can or cannot beat Nole going forward, your guess is as good as anyone else's. I'll stop here, as there's no point arguing.

I'll be nice enough to indulge just this once.

My original point was that Rafa imo has no chance to beat a 100% fit Nole on an indoor HC i.e. at WTF. Well sanju misconstrued my point by saying that I was stating Rafa has no chance of ever beating Nole again. Not what I said or meant............sure he may beat Nole again next year who knows?

To your point about Roger losing in straight sets to Rafa in Miami 2004 :
That was before Roger was king of HC (incidentally his best surface back then was grass ; now it's indoor HC) ; he had 1 HC GS and 2 total GS under his belt at the time so it was a poor example to say the least.

Then you desperately started to name times in the past when Roger lost early in IW and Miami to other players btw not Rafa. Totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Back to my original point : Do you think Rafa can beat a 100% fit Nole at WTF and, if so , why? Need I remind you that Rafa is no indoor HC juggernaut and what Nole is capable of on this surface when fully fit before you answer.

numero..Rafa did beat 100% fit Nole last year WTF at RR 7-5, 6-2 . He was fully fit (lets not bring the contact lens break time in between as that doesnt indicate not fit)

If you say that was Novak 1.0 and this year is Novak 2.0..maybe some credence..point is Rafa has beaten Novak on Novaks stronger surface and Rafas weakest surface

It's silly to say that just because Fed in 2004 won only two HC slams that means it's OK that he lost to Rafa in straight sets on his favorite surface (Read HC is his favorite surface; to me even over grass because right up till now he's still making the SF on HC slams but not on grass) but you question Rafa's loss to a Nole 2.0, who happens to become no.1 now, in a clay Masters final.

Now numero, nobody knows whether Nole will be at 100% at the WTF, and I'm not even sure that Nole can still play at his 2011 level come 2012. Sanju is right about Rafa beating Nole last year at the WTF in straight sets. And if Rafa is confident and physically fit, then yes I would say he has every chance of beating a Nole at 100% on an indoor hard court; he came close to beating a fit Nole at Miami this year, very close indeed but he ran out of gas and had nothing left nearing the end of the match.

Rafa is not totally 'useless' on an indoor hard court; he did beat the other top eight players, including Murray and Nole. Other than his 2009 where he did poorly at the WTF because of his knee injury (note: he also did poorly in other tournaments that year, by his standard, after coming back from his knee injury), he only lost to Black, Ferrer in the RR stage and each time in the SF (of 2006 n 2007) he bumped into a top form Fed. Last year he beat everyone except Fed, so I won't be surprised he may reach the final again this year (and may beat Nole on the way).

Correction: it's Blade not Black.

número, I don't agree that grass was Fed's best surface back then, it's too short a season for anyone to determine that. Also by end of 2004, Fed had 2 grass slams, 2 HC slams and 2 Indoor HC YECs, one hardly can say for sure which is his favorite surface.

Now your argument that back then Fed wasn't as great on hard courts so his loss to Rafa was not as bad as Rafa's loss to Nole now on clay. However, those examples I gave, about his losses to various players in early rounds of Hard court Masters, are relevant, because they happened when Fed was clearly in his best years and had won many hard court slams by then. It make it worst, that the losses were in early rounds and to lesser opponents, unlike an opponent like Nole.

lucky,

I love reading your analytical comments, filled with so much detailed specifics to support your argument. I do believe that you have made a good argument here.

It's not like Rafa cannot win at all on indoor hard courts. It's just not his best surface and doesn't play to his strengths. You already covered Rafa's past results at WTF, so there is no need to for me to add anything.

For someone who has been called a one-dimensional player for far too long, Rafa has proven himself on all surfaces in slams. That's why he has the career slam. I remember a time when many said he would never win a hard court slam. Then after he won the 2009 AO, the mantra was he will never win on the fast USO hard courts. So much for that one!

I think Rafa has answered his naysayers time and time again. He doesn't have to be the best hard court player. He doesn't have to be the best on indoor hard courts. As long as he is competitive and can get big wins on this surface, then he does not need to prove anything more. I am content with him being able to play his very best on clay and grass.

For most of the history of the sport of tennis, matches were only played on clay and grass.

lucky,

One last attempt. :)

The issue here is can Rafa beat 100% fit Nole 2.0 at WTF. Who Roger lost to in some Masters event 4 or 5 years ago has no relevance to this issue.

I never questioned Rafa's losses to Nole on clay this year. I merely used them to illustrate a point :

If the supposed 'King of Clay' can't take one set from Nole in his back yard in Madrid or in Rome (when Nole was totally gassed after dealing with Murray in the semi while Rafa was enjoying a WO from Delpo in QF and a rollover semi win) how is he supposed to beat that Nole on an indoor HC?

Reasoning and common sense say it won't happen.

So what is the point here? To get lucky to agree? I assume that the answer that is supposed to be given is - no way can Rafa beat 100% fit Nole 2.0 at WTF? Is that it? I never say never. That's my two cents for what it's worth.

It would go against the pattern of this year, but losing streaks have to end some time.

Rafa vs Nole on the indoor hard courts is 2:2, Nole hardly has any advantage over Rafa. Not forgetting prior to Rafa's knee injury of 2009, their H2H on the hard courts is 4:3 in Nole's favor. Of course this is Nole 2.0 we're talking about, but Rafa is not at his physical best too at the beginning of the year and has let his losses affected him mentally. Now that 2011 is coming to an end, whatever losses that happened this year all belong to the past now, so it's time to start afresh. The WTF is the right place to start for Rafa, after a long break, to test himself against the world's seven other top players. Further more the RR stage gives players chances to come back even losing one or even two matches, better still there's a one day rest between the RR matches. Players have to play three matches at least, unless injured, so there's plenty of chances to adjust one's game along the way.

Número, please refer to my post of 1.21 AM paragraph two, to be specific, as you seemed unable to read and understand my posts.

I repeat, whether you think it relevant or not, thoseexamples of Fed's LOSSES on his favorite surface are relevant, because 1) you brought Fed in your post about him not losing in straight sets on his favorite surface; 2) if Fed can lose on his favorite surface in straight sets to a young Rafa, Rafa can also lose to a no.1(or no.2 ranked then) Nole in a clay court Masters final in straight sets. I even quoted an example of Rafa losing to Fed in straight sets in a clay Masters, ie Madrid 2009.

PS. I disagree that Nole looked gassed afer the Rome SF. Look at his movements in the final, and I can tell for sure he's not gassed. Rafa clearly was affected by his three losses to Nole before that; also Nole was alot fitter than Rafa this year, with his improved diet.

Native,

I respect your opinion. The thing about lucky is that she's becoming nadline- stubborn when it comes to Rafa and impenetrable in the face of a stronger argument. She's another brick wall.

As far as what is the point? If I can admit that Roger has little or no chance of beating Rafa at RG, why can't even a Rafan admit that Rafa has little or no chance of beating 100% fit Nole 2.0 at WTF? Is it that painful to admit? I could care less what Rafa did against Nole pre-2011. That's not what was being discussed.

For numero's benefit, please refer to my above post of 3.21 AM about Rafa vs Nole H2H on indoor hard courts. Rafa did better against Nole than against Fed on indoor hard courts. Don't always assume that Rafa can't reverse his losing trend now against Nole, especially on Rafa's least favorite surface when the pressure is not on him to win or defend anything, and when nobody expects him to win. There's nothing to lose now, and the pressure is on Nole to win from now on as the no.1 player. Rafa just needs to stay focus and plays with a sense of purpose. I believe getting a win over Nole will help Rafa's confidence going forward.

Ok it's pointless. This Rafan will concede nothing when it comes to Rafa. Too biased to be reasonable. Living in a Rafa utopia world I see. No point in going forward lol.

P.S. Yes beating Nole with a bad shoulder should help his confidence. Can somebody whack him in the knee too just to improve Rafa's chances? :)

número, I'm not the brick wall. Do note that I've often criticize Rafa's game, and has recently offended some Rafa fans. If I can provide reasons for what I believe, then I don't see why your opinions can be seen as valid but not mine. What are you trying to achieve here? Convince people that Rafa has no chance of beating Nole 2.0 at 100% on an indoor hard court? And have you really analyze objectively why Rafa lost to Nole this year?

So, may I ask, if Rafa happens to beat Nole at the WTF, are we to say that's because Nole is not at his best? And so we'll have to wait for another year to prove that Rafa can or cannot beat Nole on an indoor hard court, and I don't know by then what other questioning we have to answer.

yes I agree with numero. To be blunt, Djokovics best hard court tennis is better than rafa's best hard court tennis. If Djokovic and Nadal both max out(play at their absolute best) on a hard court, then djokovic wins more often than not imo, and I have always felt that. (even prior to Nole' s incredible season this year.)

tj, we all know that, but that doenst mean that Rafa has no chances at all. Nole can beat Rafa in straight sets on the hard courts, especially in the past. Rafa has to go the distance to beat Nole most of the time, it's a fact we can't ignore. But, do remember this year, Nole's best year, he has to go the distance to beat Rafa on the hard courts. Numero's bring in Rafa's clay court results this year against Nole is therefore not relevant too. Do note that on hard and grass, Rafa DID get a set from Nole, and with chances in one match too. He did better against Nole on Nole's favorite surface than on his own favorite surface. Can número accept that?

numero, 11/17/11 4:08 AM,

As I respect yours, too! You are one of the Fed fans who can at least make a coherent argument and not resort to personal attacks. That I appreciate.

I am willing to agree with you, while hoping in my heart of hearts that Rafa will prove me wrong. There's nothing wrong with hope and believeing that at some point, Rafa will get it together and prevail again over Nole.

tj600 agrees with you. I think the one time that Rafa played Nole at his current best form was the 2010 USO. He beat him and that big serve was one of the reasons, but he just played the match of his life. That is what it took for him to get it done.

Of course, we all know that Nole has improved his game, his fitness and mental strength. But I am talking about Nole at his best up to that point in time. It was a great victory because Nole has given Rafa trouble on hard courts many times. Rafa won when it counted most.

I can say that Nole at his best would win more often than not. I thought that once Rafa had the big serve, that this weapon would be the great equalizer. However, he wasn't able to keep it up with shoulder problems. Without it, he is vulnerable.

I am not willing to say anything against luckystar or say she is getting like nadline. I want to stay away from that. I have enjoyed chatting with her many times here. If she believes in her argument, then she has the right to stand behind it. It's not my place to tell her what to do. I respect her a great deal.

Are you okay now that I have agreed to your point? :)

Thanks NNY. Of course numero's points under normal circumstances will hold true. However, we can't deny that Rafa has improved his hard court game, so much so that it has become a problem for Nole more so than on the clay courts. This year's results between the two tells me that. In fact Rafa's improvement on hard courts may have affected his clay court game. Nole didn't have an easy time during this year's USO final, and it's his ROS plus Rafa's wonky serves that allowed Nole to capitalize on. Do remember both first and second sets, Rafa broke serves and had a 2-0 lead. With a more steady serve and serving at 120-125 mph, Rafa will have more chances against Nole. I did mention in some earlier threads that some
parts of Rafa's game fell apart though luckily not all fell apart at the same time.

No argument for me who's the better hard court player. In fact we had a discussion some time earlier about who's better on the hard courts, Rafa, Nole and Murray. I remember some Rafa fans not agreeing with me, when I said that Murray and Nole are better hard court players than Rafa. I don't know whether NNY still remember that thread.

lucky,

I actually do rememvber that thread. I think you took some heat from Rafa fans as I recall! :)

I just want the tennis to start already, so that we can finally talk about actual matches and see if our predictions and thoughts actually are accurate.

Three more days to go. I think Rafa's is the evening match, that means I've to wake up at 4am for Rafa's match. Will have a hard time next week for me, because I won't want to miss any match.

luckystar, Tough for you. That's basically what I have to go through during the torunaments that are in the US. But being portuguese the time zone is the same as England. So for me the WTF in London is perfect. :P

'Reasoning and common sense say it won't happen.'
numero, 11/17/11 2:52 AM

lol. if that's all it takes to predict match results we should all take up betting on the outcome and give up the daytime job.

bleck: how come Portugal is on GMT when the rest of Western Europe is GMT+1 ?

ed, I don't really know lol.

I looked it up and found this.
"Most of europe use ( CEST ) Central European Summer Time and ( CET ) Central European Time. I'm not quite sure why portugal uses ( GMT ) Greenwich Mean Time and ( BST ), but I guess its historical.

(In 1373, Portugal made an alliance with England, which is the longest-standing alliance in the world.) "

'longest-standing alliance in the world.'

I didn't know that - but it doesn't stop you sending your marauding jellyfish to attack us lol.

What is GMT? I have no idea. Remember, I am in the states on the west coast in L.A. Rafa will be playing Sunday at 12:00 noon my time and that's just perfect for me!

NNY: GMT is Greenwich Mean Time - a point in London from which all other time zones are calculated. Made more confusing by Summer Time which is applied at different times in some, but not all, zones!!

ed,

Oh, thanks. So that's how it's done.