oh my oh my oh my

this result will not soon be forgotten

I still can't believe at this point of his career, Rafa hasn't successfully defended a non-clay court title. Murray stuck to his game plan and he didn't let up. He took advantage of his many opportunities, Rafa didn't, and that's why Andy won the title. So congrats to Murray, because he's off to a blazing start in the fall season.

As for Rafa, I don't know what the hell else to think or say anymore, but whatever problems are going on with him, need to be fixed NOW, not later. He's way too good a player to suddenly forget how to keep his concentration and win finals.

Ricky, it's been a long time coming. I really feel Andy has turned a corner mentally. He always had the game to challenge top 3, but his shenanigons on court always let him down. Amazing what confidence does and once again Nole, thanx for those pills ;)

Sorry djb247365, I have to take issue with your comment, "I still can't believe at this point of his career, Rafa hasn't successfully defended a non-clay court title." As a Rafan this grates on me because, whilst this is true, nobody mentions that (a) Muzza has never defended a title outside indoor/outdoor hardcourt and (b) Nole has never defended a title outside outdoor hardcourt. Why is Rafa made out to be a complete failure in this respect and the others are not, he is only a year older than them? Or is it because he is such an outstanding athlete the bar is perennially set that much higher for him? If that is the case, please excuse my "chagrin"............maybe it's me reacting badly to his loss today!

I agree with your consternation re his finals record this year..............unacceptable.

it would be funny if it wasnt so sad. Nadal clearly cannot deal with the pressure T is putting on him. He was doing fine till the T's comments came in the press. Rafa needs to change his whole life in order to keep up with the top. He still will have a lot of points to defend next year (All finals) SO his downfall needs to hold otherwise he falls further back. This is maybe his last chance of winning the WTC. He would not want a big fish like that slip away from his hands.
WTC tourney where the best of the best play every year. All thee greats have made their mark on that tournement. Rafa still needs maiden WTC win. Not a good start for him to get his confidence going. Bagled in the decider well that is terrible. Shame on you T!

Congrats to Murray and his fans for the win! Well deserved victory, clearly the better player today and playing the right type of game on this surface. Well done!

Rafaisthebest, Sorry if I sounded too harsh on Rafa. After all, I am one of Rafa's biggest fans, like you, but I don't focus on Murray or Djokovic, because I'm not big fans of theirs. Rafa is by no means a failure, but I can't pretend that everything is ok with him, when it clearly isn't. To see him lose 7 finals in one season is rather disturbing, and it leaves me to wonder what it's gonna take for him to find his way again. He's a shadow of his former self right now. None of us are used to seeing him like this. All great champions have their bad patches, and eventually, they find a way to bounce back. I'm curious as to how Rafa's gonna bounce back from this.

..................and to compound my sporting misery today, the All Blacks are being slapped around by Argentina, of all teams! They lose and I slit my wrists...............

"I?ve played well in the last few months in Cincinnati and then the US Open. I need to carry on that form in Shanghai," said Murray, who has set himself the goal of surpassing Roger Federer at World No. 3 in the year-end South African Airways 2011 ATP Rankings. "I need to keep up the wins and hopefully I'll get to the No. 3 ranking. It's not the ultimate goal, but it?s the target I set for the last few tournaments this year."

I know how Fed fans feel right now...the same feeling I had when Nole took the NO1 ranking from Rafa while I was hoping for Fed to take out Nole and kind of "protects" Rafa's ranking...Now, there is nothing Rafa could do to stop Andy from getting closer to No3...

I sincerely hope Muzza gets his wish soon.......................he is the de facto #3 after all if you go by the YTD points..................

Funny and a bit sad to see that the consolation some nadal fans take out of this loss is that murray is closer to federer in the rankings. As for the YTD points they are what they are. Why shouldn't the basel points and WTF and Paris points not count towards the ranking if they haven't played them this year yet?!

This clearly shows the anti federer fans we have. rafaisthebest, you say that us fedfans are simply hoping and enjoying nadal's fall and yet it is you that take consolation from murray getting closer to federer. And you believe he is #3 because of the YTD points?! Such nonsense...

WE fed fans look at the big picture and that is that #3 or #4 is the same as the draws go. It is better for nadal not to get to far away from roger because the goal is not maintaining the #3 spot but to get to #2 and then #1 spot.

P.S.: When murray starts to get close to nadal in the rankings we'll see if you'll still take consolation when he beats nadal.

bleck, it is understandable to feel fear...we don't blame you...but honestly, what are you talking about? How in earth do you think a Rafan would be consoled by Murray overtaking No3 from Fed...why would we care? Rafa has his own issues to deal with, and we fans have full hands of worries about it, not to care if Fed is staying at No3 position or not...the reason I posted Murray's statement was to show Andy's current high motivation and what his driving force and real goal is, unlike Rafa who showed no motivation in his match vs. Murray and was completely outplayed...things do not revolve around Fed you know...

@RITB, the all blacks won quite comfortably, I don't see how they were under any real threat except for one passage in the first half. Should be a cracker against the Wallabies next week though.

@bleck, so far Murray has been the 3rd best player for the year. Of course a great ending for Federer's year could change things, but as things stand for the year as a whole, Murray has fared better overall.

natashao I sais "some" nadal fans and I was replying to rafaisthebest.
I don't know if you didn't read my post or if you misinterpreted it. I really don't care if roger's in #3 or #4 draw wise is the same thing, there's no pratical difference. And as I said above for me it's better for the gap between roger and nadal not to get bigger so I'm pleased murray won and I wish if they meat in the shangai finals that murray wins again.

samprallica, of course murray has been the 3rd best this year, the YTD ranking shows that. But rankings take into account the last 52 months so all the good results federer had last year are still in play. So roger is the rightful number 3. There's not much difference in level of play between roger and murray. Murray has been a bit more consistent and has played more tournaments.

And Team Murray win the doubles! What a brilliant day! Come on!
Where are the other fans? We're celebrating big time folks!
alex, get out of bed, mojo leave the gym, Sosueme tear yourself away from bubbles.
Woopee de Doop!

where is nadline? after US open finals also she was not to be seen for a long time!!! neverthless, write a line about federer and she will be back with a counter comment!!

Superb! Well done AndyM! Yeeha!! Well done team Murray! Service pionts 73%, breakpoints saved 83%, 6 aces , total points won 60%! Oh ya dancer!

Well nadline says Rafa only loses when he is injured, sick, tired or some personal problem is happening in his life. I wonder if she will reappear and give us the reason he lost besides the fact that Murray was too good today.

I stated yesterday that imo it's only a matter of time before Murray gets to #2. This may actually be good for Roger. It will make possible some Nole/Rafa and Roger/Andy SF for a change.

Bleck, unlike some of you Fedfans who follow Rafa obssessively, I couldn't care less about Roger. When I say I want Muzza to take-over #3, it is not an anti-Roger comment, it is a pro-Muzza comment (a) because he has been clearly the 3rd best player thos year as the YTD rankings show and (b) he is my second best player after Rafa. This is not a secret, anyone who regularly posts on TT knows this. So sorry to burst your bubble, Roger is just not on my mind, at all, not important to me. Whether Roger is #3 or #120 makes no difference to me. Rafa and Muzza? Different kettle of fish...............

I want Muzza challenging Rafa for honours......and I can promise you I will love it! I do not expect you, a Fedfan, to undrstand...........................such a shame.

samprallica, yes the All Blacks won comfortably in the end, put the smile back on my face after Rafa's loss! The first halh the Argentines put up stiff resistance, hence my feelings of deja vu at that point.........................

On to Shanghai! Vamos!!!!!!!!

Congrats to Andy and his fans. Looks like Murray is on a great run - he demolished Ferrer as well.

Sad to see Rafa lose like that but it is all part of the game. Murray deserved to win today.

Vamos Rafa and God bless you.

Sienna & Bleck - enjoying Rafa's loss as usual. You are beneath contempt.

Rafa is also playing doubles in Shanghai...I know he is doing a favor to his friend Marc but I wish he could have enjoyed some physical and mental time off...this way he will have to play already on Tuesday...anyway, I wish him luck and hope he does not take his loss to Murray too harsh on himself...life goes on...

Vamos Rafa Dearest!!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/andymurray/8816409/Andy-Murray -holds-off-Rafael-Nadal-in-stunning-fashion-to-win-Japan-Open-title.ht ml

Can't read the words on Rafa's T-shirt at the trophy presentation................anyone get a good read? What does it say? Looks cool and thoughtful................i.e. typical Rafa!

rafaisthebest, it says: "every day is a chance for victory"...

I dont like it when Rafa is humiliated like this. But I can only wonder what Nadaline is doing. She is eating all the candy in da house gaining pound after pound. Munching all the chocolate after this dedeath.
Her husband is on a strict housearrest. He is not allowed to speak or utter anything let alone ask about Rafa. Just terrible what it must be like at the moment.

Wow those last two sets from Andy were brutal! Must be a great feeling to win both singles and then doubles with your brother. Congrats Andy.

decent day at the office for A. Murray

I think Nadal will be fine. There is a danger of reading too much into one match. Anyone who plays tennis knows you can have a bad day at the office. Then you can have confidence issues. Just as wins leads to more wins, losses (in finals) also leads to more losses. No one is immune to that, not even Nadal.

Technically the most obvious difference between Nadal this year and the last year is 1) his serve 2) depth of groundstrokes. In 2010, he was getting tons of free points on serve in all tournaments starting the UsOpen through the WTF. That was the reason why 2010 was the best post UsOpen season of his career. His % points won on first serve was also very high. In fact against Troicki in 2010, in the same tournament (Tokyo), Nadal didn't play that well, but STILL managed to serve 18 aces! This year, the problem against both Djokovic in the UsOpen final and Murray in Tokyo final, was that Nadal's serve was exposed. He doesn't have that extra injection of pace anymore. No matter how good a returner you face, you shouldn't be winning only 50% of pts on first serve. When you are under pressure in every one of your service games, it's hard to remain aggressive in general. That said, Nadal is being broken by a lot of other players too. The fact that he is still making finals is a GOOD thing. WHY? Because it indicates this ability to break serve is as good as ever, otherwise he would be losing a lot more. And if he can find a way to back up his serve, he would win matches far more easily.

The second thing is Nadal's court positioning, and thereby short balls. If you compare the UsOpen Final 2010 and Tokyo 2010 with the corresponding tournaments this year, what stands out is Nadal is hitting much shorter for extended periods of time in 2011. Djokovic, and now Murray, have been smart enough to capitalize on this and grab the initiative.

Finally, the last problem is physical. It is clear that Nadal is flagging of physically in the last one third of his matches. It happened in the UsOpen final, and it happened in the Tokyo final. Both places he had nothing left for the final set. Again, in the past you wouldn't see Nadal losing 3 finals after winning the 1st set.
Because Rafa is playing shorter and behind the baseline, he ends up doing a LOT more running than he should especially side to side.

Overall, what Nadal needs right now is something like what Annacone did to Federer. Which is to make him a more aggressive player. That's what Toni and Nadal have to consider during the off season. Nadal is not getting any younger and with 8 years of winning slams and closing 700 matches, I doubt he will be able to outlast these younger players physically. So, he needs to revamp his game to take more risks: A bigger serve, slightly flatter forehand, better court positioning, aggressive backhand, more forays to the net etc. He used to be a very aggressive player in his younger days (2004-early 2005). There is no reason that Nadal cannot do this. He is an exceptional athlete, still quick as hell, has some ridiculous power from both wings, and the ball striking ability of someone like a Connors or Agassi. He has shown before that he can rebound while facing adversity, so hopefully he can do so again in 2012..

When Feds time passed after Wimby 2008 there was lots of cheering for Nadal. At the time he was seen as a juggernaut , it was like the TMF days there is nothing that can stop this kid ,he fell someone who carried that mantle for years!. It is inevitable, nobody is superman. In the height of hubris among fans their champion will seem untouchable until it happens. When it happens it is a heart break, a gruelling one. Only when a fan moves past this phase and accept the decline will he/she truly start enjoying the game with a more mature persona. This is I think where many Fed fans are , glued to their telly, wishing some stroke of geniousness a glimmer of the TMF days , anything that will take them to bygone era of how Federer once was and how they as a fan, once was totally in worship. The important thing is all champions are humans and you should be ready for their decline , to accept gracefully!

"Rafael Nadal still has never defended a hard-court title". This is a pretty redundant comment. Has Federer ever defended a clay court title?? Doubtful. Ricky Dimon, you are just as naive as the rest, placing greater importance on hard court results than clay.

Federer defended the title in Hamburg.

Brilliant, fed defended a clay court title ONCE! Just shows how irrelevant defending titles is in the grand scheme of things. Number of slams and nothing else measure greatness.

Ricky@9.29, wow praise indeed from you...;)

hey, deuce, are you sober this morning? :) I was going through my own misery so did not have a chance to personally congratulate you...Andy was indeed brilliant yesterday...I thought he had pretty good chances to beat Rafa but I did not see it coming in such a "stormy" manner...well, I will have to get used to these, would I? At least I have your workshop to live with, which is to resolve all my issues...why do I suddenly think that it will be only me and those weirdos of Fed fans who will be in need of this type of recuperation?...this is for my misery to get even worse...:)

Congratulations Muzzans, Andy did you proud. Sadly, Rafa didn't exactly cover himself in glory yesterday.

I think the reason Rafa doesn't do well at this time of the year is no U. Toni. I think the team is not as disciplined without the boss around so Roig is not doing a good job, IMO.


Vamos Rafa!

nadline, I think you are right that Rafa and his guys are more relaxed without Toni around...:) still, Rafa has a chance to improve his results in Shanghai as he went out in the third round last year...so he has high chances to defend his points and gain more...he should enjoy his tennis...it's not like he is under threat from Fed to overtake his No2 spot...

natashao, thank you :) Very strange position for an Andy fan to be in, now I'm wondering if 2012 really could be his breakthrough year. Wow, think of that!
PS I could make sure you and the Fedfans don't book the same workshops, gonna cost you though...;)

ha-ha, well, thank you, deuce, I appreciate it...no matter how expensive it could be it is so damn worth it..:)

yeah, indeed, Andy has very good chances to do extremely well in 2012, playing the way he does and having this confidence boost...I actually like to see him getting what he really deserves...Remember, uncle Toni said a while ago that for him Andy is the most talented player and that he will be the man to beat...and Uncle Toni is always right...:)

Rafa also admits Andy's game was brilliant...it's so true...the thing that was missing in his game until now was his ?head issues? anyway...so now that he has sorted it out he can freely advance...the only hope I have is that when Andy reaches those finals next year, Rafa will be the one facing him on the other side of the net...I am not asking too much, am I? :)

Dear natashao, our workshops are very effective, and if money's no object well...
No, I don't think you're asking too much re finals, fingers crossed ....won't mention D. word.....
Apart from his head, I think Andy has been trying to get that perfect balance between offence and defence. The Ferrer match seemed like a practise run for Rafa. At Wimbledon he was too keen on going for too much too soon. In Tokyo he found this balance. Gr8 stuff!

Oh dear, Rafa could do without two nemesis. As if Djoker was not enough.

Andy was unbelievable, bouyed up by his quest for the No 3 spot which will be his if he defends his title in Shanghai.

I was disappointed not so much because Rafa lost but losing so badly in the last two sets. When Andy retrieved that game in the second set when he was 0-40 down, with blistering aces, Rafa probably lost heart because he was having to work so hard to keep up with Andy.

I'm looking forward to seeing Rafa play again this week and I hope he forgets this loss immediately. I honestly think he needs Toni around to keep his focus. The camp must be on a jolly without Toni, so his strict no nonsense approach is what Rafa needs.

Well... :))
As I predicted, Andy won over Rafa. This is not a surprise to me. Rafa isn't his absolute 100% best and Andy is a great, talented player who just needed a bit of real, winning attitude and confidence.

Congrats Andy!

deuce, 10/10/11 9:27 AM

For all great players there comes a pivotal match which alters the course of their career and that is what we witnessed yesterday. What I have always liked about his matches with Rafa is the mutual respect they have for each other. But maybe there was too much respect on Andy's part in the past and yesterday we saw Rafa's respect change to awe!!

AT THE MOMENT ANDY IS ONE OF THE THREE BEST PLAYERS-I AM KEEPING FEDERER OUT OF THIS GROUP OF THREE, NO MATTER WHAT THE ATP POINTS HE HAS AND CAN HAVE BY THE YEAR END.

ANDY IS NOT CONSITENT AND HIS RISE AND FALL IS SINUSOIDAL IF NOT A PULSE TRAIN.

BY CONSISTENCY I MEAN DJOKER IN 2010-11, NADAL IN 2008-09 AND FEDERER IN HIS TMF YEARS.

EAFA IS A BIT LOW IN CONFIDENCE AND IT SHOWS UP IN FASTER COURTS ONLY. BUT HE WILL REMAIN AMONG THE BEST THREE AND MAY ASCEND AGAIN WITH IMPROVEMENT IN SERVE, BACKHAND THAT HAS NOW BECOME A WEAKNESS VIS-A-VIS DJOKER AND ANDY. HIS GAME IS STILL REVOLVING AROUND THE BASICS BUT HE MUST REDUCE THE UE COUNT.

ed, I do hope you're right. It's sure been a long time a-coming.
newfangle, don't understand "sinusoidal." If you mean his fall is as inevitable as his rise, then I would disagree. He's been No 4 in the world, how many years now? You don't do that by "falling." Everyone keeps talking about "The Big 3" and I think Andy has been somehow overlooked. He's having the best year of his career so far. Nole had a huge surge of confidence after the Davis Cup and, like ed is suggesting, I hope this win will do it for Andy.

^^^ Duece I agree Andy has maintained his number 3 position for sustained amount of time and you defo don`t do that by "falling". I hope you are right and his win has given his confidence a real boost as it should. Just goes to show what Andy is capable of when he "keeps the heid!"

Deuce: Ricky was clearly gobsmacked by the scoreline and is still reeling from the shock :-)

Djokovic may have given access to his confidence to Murray. It is definitely the best match I have ever seen Murray play against Nadal or probably any top player. If he just finds a way to keep this confidence going great things are in store for him.

I think people are gettinga ahead of themselves. This was just a 500 tournament final. Yes, murray played great tennis but the proof is in the GS. Murray has already beaten nadal, djokovic and federer in masters 1000 but he hasn't beaten djokovic or federer in GS and is 0-3 this year against nadal (in GS).

Don't get me wrong I would love to see someone breaking the current djokovic/nadal duopoly, if federer can't do it then let murray be the one. But murray has to learn to cope with pressure. Last year he beat federer in straights in the Shanghai final and then lost in the WTF against federer weaks later. Didn't he gain confidence then with that final win?!

If murray manages to reach the final or win the WTF (he would almost necessarily have to beat 1 or 2 of the top3) then I think his confindence will get a huge boost and we may see a murray with more self-confidence.

deuce, 10/10/11 9:27 AM

For all great players there comes a pivotal match which alters the course of their career and that is what we witnessed yesterday. What I have always liked about his matches with Rafa is the mutual respect they have for each other. But maybe there was too much respect on Andy's part in the past and yesterday we saw Rafa's respect change to awe!!

ed251137 , 10/10/11 2:36 PM


I was mistaking you for a Rafa fan. Sorry.

nadline..lol...

Oh dear. I fear I am about to be expelled from the RFC!!!!!!!

I didnt realise I was breaking the rules :-))

Good point bleck. I was also thinking along the same line. Didn't Murray played outstanding tennis last year at the Shanghai Masters and beat Fed convincingly in the final in straight sets? And Fed then was certainly playing good all court tennis, unlike Rafa at the just concluded Tokyo final. What followed then was Muray's poor showing in the AO final against Nole, despite his efforts in getting there.

Not to pour cold water over this Murray's victory, but let's not jump into conclusion too soon. For one Murray has to play consistently well in best of five sets matches and for seven matches to win a slam. Let's wait patiently and see whether this good form of Murray can continue and sustainable during slams. Also don't write off Rafa, this period after the USO is always Rafa's most vulnerable period of the season. To me, that last set of the Tokyo final was very similar to that last set of this year's USO final, Rafa had nothing much left in his tank, having to fight so hard during the match and still losing(tothebetter player). This was the third time I've seen him so exhausted during a match this year, the first being that Miami final.

ed, you are already a member of Andy fan club, second class. Step this way please ;)

lucky: as you have pointed out, over the years we have seen Rafa run out of steam at this point of the year more often than not. He seems to lose his trademark ferocious will to win which to me indicates the exhaustion could be more mental than physical. It is understandable he is shell-shocked at the end of this annus horribilis.

lucky: Andy reached the semis of 3 Opens this year and one final. That's not being "inconsistent." In fact, regarding slams, this is his best year ever. You've got to get to that old door, before you can force it open.

Rafa should cut out gluten from his diet, look what it's done for Nole and Andy.

but Rafa loves noodles, nadline...and Nutela...and his cookies...it is not easy to give up on such delicious stuff...:) full-fed and happy, that is Rafa's motto...:)

Deuce: I should hope so too after investing in a debenture seat on your sofa.

Ed, you talk as if this is the first time Rafa met Murray. They've played for how many times now? You think Rafa was shocked about how good Murray was? Didn't you watch the WTF match last year? Rafa then was playing better than he was playing at this year's Tokyo Open, yet he really had a close shave in that WTF match.

Murray can play like this at times, no question about that, it's a matter of being consistently good like this. While he had reached all four semis at the slams this year, he did have his hicups along the way, before even meeting Rafa in the semis. Of course he had the abilities to beat Rafa in a slam, as his victories over Rafa at USO 2008 and AO 2010 shown. It's a matter of performing well in the slam finals that matters most when he gets there. Ill keep my fingers crossed and see how he performs in the next slam before getting too excited for Murray or too worried for Rafa. ( not meant to criticize Murray in any way here).

but Rafa loves noodles, nadline...and Nutela...and his cookies...it is not easy to give up on such delicious stuff...:) full-fed and happy, that is Rafa's motto...:)

natashao , 10/11/11 11:45 AM


Rafa can't have his nutela and eat it. Zero gluten is the way forward.


Vamos Rafa

lucky: I wasn't implying he was shell shocked by Murray. I was referring to the cumulative effect on Rafa of losing so many finals this year. And of course we still have to see if Andy can maintain the momentum he needs to actually win that elusive first Slam title.

lucky: I never take offence at your posts, I think you are very fair. Of course I disagree with you and am getting very excited :)
nadlene, joking apart, don't you think it would be difficult for Rafa to lose weight, which is what going gluten free does for you, he is a different body type from Nolandy.
ed, lol had forgotten, but of course you took one out after you had participated in one of our excellent, workshops....;)

Ok Ed point accepted. To be honest, after seeing how well Murray played his matches at Tokyo, I was prepared for Rafa's loss in the final. His losses in finals might seem terrible but he effectively only lost to two players in finals this year. Had he lost all seven finals to seven different players, to me that's more worrying. Right now he just has to narrow down his problem to solving the Nole issue. Both Murray and Nole always have their chances of beating Rafa each time he meets them, except maybe on clay, so losing to them now and then is not a big issue as long as he still can beat them on other occasions. It's a matter of getting back his A-game now that's more important for Rafa IMO, as long as Rafa has confidence in his game, half the problem is solved. The other half, he has to go out there to fight it out with his A-game!

deuce, it's not so much losing weight it's keeping up your endurance and gluten free diet does help with that.

I will be very surprised of Rafa plays the Asian swing next year. He seems to begrudge the amount he spends away from his beloved Mallorca and as he has never done well at this time of the year, he might think it's not worth the effort.

That's an interesting perspective and helps put the statistic into perspective!

nadline, so he would play Paris and WTF? Makes sense. Fed and Nole both skipping these tournaments. Will be interesting to see how they do at the end of the year. There's a fine line between having too much match practise and having too little.

lucky, I don't think Rafa considers Murray his nemesis, just not yet, and I agree with him. In his interview after the loss to Murray he said that Andy played unbelievable and he was unstoppable, but he also stated that at the moment there is only one player he considers better than him and that is Nole. Those are Rafa's words. So, unless Andy repeats this kind of game against Rafa in the GS, I think it is a little premature to think that Rafa faces new nemesis in Murray...after all, he beat him four times this year, three times in GSs and lost one time in the 500 tournament...that is far away from being " a serious problem" I would think...

I don't think Rafa likes Paris that much either but he needs the match play there to go into the WTF. He might just Tokyo and play Shanghai, Paris, WTF, because he's already dropped Bangkok. The WTF follows Paris the very next day, how mad is that?

Give the guys a break, ATP.

deuce, I think both Nole and Fed will play Basel..then Paris and WTF, no break...so, how smart is that?

Yep natashao, I agree. Not worry about Rafa yet, and not worry for him at this tournament yet. Now watching Roddick vs Dimitrov, very interesting. Young guns all in action today. Roddick is nine years older than Dimitrov! In no time Rafa will be nine years older than one of his young opponents; two years later Rafa at 27 will be nine years older than an 18 year old opponent! How time flies past so quickly, Rafa was 18 when I first saw him play, now he's 25, a young veteran!

PS. It's reported that Rafa has signed with his local football club (a third division club which Rafa has a share) to play for them when he can afford the time, I suppose during his off season. I know it's for fun and to satisfy his longing to play some football. As long as he's happy in doing that and helps to release some pressure off him from tennis, I feel happy for him.

lucky, you must be kidding! Why in earth would Rafa want to add football to his menu, even if it was only for fun, given his fragile knees and his fitness issues that we witnessed this year? Is he out of his mind? He better gets some rest and starts fixing some aspects in his game...football can wait...

Oh, my God, I hope this is not an indication that Rafa considers career changes and switching to football...LOOOOL ...

No I'm not kidding. The boy enjoys playing football, let him play if that makes him happy. He's old enough to make his own decisions, it's his own life,let him runs it himself. I'm sure he knows what he's doing. We should respect his decisions.

I wonder if uncle T agrees with that. Probably not!!

of course I will respect his decision...but I will also offer my own opinion on this and IMO it's nothing less than ridiculous...

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2011/10/41/Shanghai-Tuesday-Na dal-Preview.aspx

a nice interview with Rafa after his loss in Tokyo and some good reasoning from him...he does not mention any football, though...:)

It doesn't matter whether uncle Toni agree or not. It's Rafa's own decision and if I'm not wrong, he has already signed the agreement. I don't think Rafa is acting rashly, he may have discussed with his family members and then come to his own decision.

Rafa and his family always do things after proper consideration. He invested into the local football club, apparently the club was having some financial problems. His uncle Miguel Angel, the former footballers, was appointed to help in running the club. Rafa is also having his own tennis academy in his home town. It will also be the Head Quarters of his own foundation, his mother is the chairman of his foundation. I have a feeling all these is to plan for the future, for himself and his team. Who knows, uncle Toni may be working in that academy after Rafa retires from tennis. With his own tennis academy and his own football club, Rafa can keep himself happy playing both tennis and football after he retires from professional tennis. I always feel that Rafa's whole life will always revolve around sports, mainly football, tennis and golf. He's always makes friends with footballers and golfers.

The last that I read, Rafa has sold off his shares of the local football club(this is the first division one) and his uncle Miquel Angel no longer help coach the team there. Apparently they're unhappy about the running of the club.

This is not to be confused with the third division club that Rafa joins, which is formed as a private football club by Rafa and his friends. It's more an amateur club, so Rafa can choose to play or not to play, depends on his tennis schedule. Uncle Toni was mentioned as not in favor of Rafa playing football but he respects Rafa's decision.

So no worries there, Rafa's main focus is still on tennis. Playing football is just a pastime, at least for now.

Thanks Nats for the link.

I agree with Rafa that the standard hasn't changed that much, what has changed in many players is belief because the impregnable Fedal wall seems a little bit pregnable at the moment. I hope 2012 heralds a great year for my undisputed favourite player. I lost heart when he lost all his WTF matches in 2009, then he came roaring back in 2010, so there is hope.

Anyway, it's good for other players to have their day in the sun as long as they don't stay out in it too long and give Fedal their deck chairs back.


Vamos Rafa

After a few days away.... congratulations to Murray! And to deuce, alex and all his fans! Here's to the next 12 months: let them be the most consistent Andy has yet had.

I am happy for Andy and his fans, but am uncomfortable with anyone writing off Rafa or thinking that he has somehow been weakened or demeaned by this loss. Andy has beaten Rafa before at Masters tournaments. Right now Andy is having a great run and gaining points on Fed. It's a nice thing to see. However, I am aware that this has never been Rafa's time of year. If he wins it will be a bonus, if not then it is what it is. He is not going anywhere. I want him to have some time at the end of the year to work with Uncle Toni on certain aspects of his game and come back strong in 2012, fresh mentally and physically.

Some of you really have not been following tennis for that long. Prior to this year Rafa neverbacked down in a match like he did against Murray.
I feel most of you are fans just form his year 2008, 09 or even worse 2010. But maybe the most of you ar eto young to fully appreciate what it takes to become the best andmore to stay the best and try again to become the best. The latter one is almost impossible/
And I have said it before tennis is maybe the only game where you must (as a champion) leaf your soul and spirit bare.
I feel Nadal is taking the losses to lighthearted. It is his time to make the choice and he is not ready to do so. Djoker said it this year we are playing for eternity and if so it cannot be done halfheartedly.

THEIR chairs back?
Those chairs were not really 'theirs' to begin with, they belong to no one & are merely rented out for a time. For any player.
And time waits for no one.
Fedal had its time, there are more interesting stories to consider going on (with Rafa & Roger still very much in the mix of course)
Although some Nadal fans pine for those simpler days for obvious reasons.
Murray was sublime & a little scary in front of the polite Japanese crowd & it certainly was the most thorough beat down of Rafa I've personally ever seen. As well as the most confident performance I've witnessed from Andy. Which is why it has generated so much debate. But as most everyone has said the question is whether Andy can now push on & realise his full potential, or is this yet another false dawn from a player too immature to embrace his destiny.
Still, Murray is clearly less intimidated by Rafa now. Ive always believed that was the main problem he had when facing him across the net.
Confidence is the key for a Murray breakthrough as it was for Novak & Rafa's.

One other thing, I've noticed a lot of people say Murray is 'doing a Novak', but this is not how I see it. Andy knew how to play Nadal years back, in fact he may have been the first to really understand. He's just not been able to deliver on it... until now. He's taken inspiration from Novak obviously (& maybe a tactic or 2)to enhance his game, but Novak's approach is clearly different. Murray was not rooted to the baseline grinding it out like a 'rumble in the jungle' in Tokyo. Rather, as soon as the opportunity presented itself, he was right in there mid court & often at the net playing very aggressively dictating throughout. Novak is not happy at the net & rarely pays a visit. The backhand was devastating & the forehand, when it presented, was pretty sharp as well. Which is more than can be said for Rafa's backhand, a side I  now consider something of a weakness for Nadal,  as attacking it is the best way to get him out of position (although you would have to be an Andy or Novak to take advantage of it) . Rafa played well, esp in the first set. He just couldnt raise his game to respond this time to Murray's level when he needed to. Understandable really, who could have? Sometimes you just have to say..too good, & Andy was way, WAY too good. One thing that also surprised me with the stats was how well Rafa could win points on the second serve (initially) compared to his first so there's a problem with the power of his serve as well, that definitely could be improved for next year, if he can lift his confidence with a new game plan. Which is what he needs now to mount a credible challenge against Novak in 2012.

Rafa's time is not done. So anyone who thinks it is so and he will go gently into that good night, is just plain wrong. Fed's time of dominance is over. He had a long run at the top and it's the way of things to eventually step aside. Rafa is not done yet. He has shown himself willing to work on his game and make necessary adjustments to new challenges. Anyone who writes Rafa off is fooling only themselves.

it certainly was the most thorough beat down of Rafa I've personally ever seen.
Sosueme
, 10/12/11 12:14 AM

Chennai 2008, Rafa lost in the finals to Youzhny with the score 6:0 6:1, so this score with Murray is not that bad...at least he won a set...But remember, it was January 2008...and we all know 2008 turned out to be one of the Rafa's most successful years..

Well, I just checked out Chennai on Reuters natashao,
Rafa had played Moya for 4 hours less than 24hrs before, and could barely move on the day.
Youzhny is quoted as saying he was 'gifted the final'.
It was good of Rafa to turn up really.
If we're honest, you can't compare the 2 finals @ ALL.
Anyway I think it's more encouraging for Murray than it is a problem for Rafa, Andy is finally growing up!
It was an assured, mature performance, where everything 'clicked' on the day. It won't happen every day, that's for sure.
Maybe 3 or 4 times a year for any of the top players.
The key is for it to happen at the right time.
And my goodness it really needs to happen for Murray then.

Yes Murray was superb, at least for one to one and a half set. As Murray himself admits, it's almost impossible to repeat this type of play and he's not sure that he can play like that again. Also, beating Rafa is never easy, Murray has to go the distance and with Rafa not serving well, just goes to show how difficult it is to beat Rafa, even on fast hard courts.

When a player is so 'in the zone' it's hard to beat him, just like many times Fed was during his TMF days, Rafa was during his 2008 clay and grass season and especially his 2010 MC. Nole too many times this year. The key is 'never allow the player to get in the zone', like what Rafa always did to Fed when they played against each other. Had Rafa played more aggressively during the Tokyo final from start to finish and served well, he could at least not allowed Murray to get 'in the zone'; he failed to do so and we saw Murray's game in full flow.

Murray always plays well during this time of the year, since 2008. His most impressive win was that last year in the Shanghai final, IMO, dispatching Fed in straight sets with score like 6-3,6-2 and to me Fed was playing well then. His game, like Rafa's, will trouble Fed more than Rafa. Also knowing how to beat Rafa is one thing, but actually beating him is another, which explains why Rafa beats the other top four guys more so than they beat him, at least until this year. Guys like Delpo, Berdych, Sod and the other top four guys have games that will trouble Rafa, but atually beating Rafa is another story.

I also have to say that some of Rafa's weapons are either missing or have become blunt this year, he needs to polish all his tools and starts afresh, hopefully he can do so as early as at the beginning of 2012.

Sosueme :) was v. upset Bubbles has been diverting your time away from tennistalk ;)

lucky, You got a typically modest response from Andy, and if he's said anything else, the media would've been all over him, but I have seen him play like this b4, against Roddick and Meltzer. People here dismissed those matches as being insignificant, but I guess they can't against Rafa.

@Sosueme , 10/12/11 12:14 AM

No the chairs don't belong to Fedal but they were sitting tenants and it's not easy to evict sitting tenants so they'll have to see what they can do about getting rid of the new occupants.

Please don't take it too seriously. :)

deuce, I'm not one of those, but Murray has shown his potential all along. As I've mentioned, the way he beat Fed last year at Shanghai was impressive, as he was there from start to finish, hence the scoreline.

As I've mentioned, the top four guys when they are in the zone, are really difficult to handle, don't talk about beating them. The way Rafa handled Roddick at the recently concluded USO is another example of Rafa being in the zone, and there's nothing Roddick could do that day to overcome Rafa.

The top four guys, when playing their best tennis, can be unbeatable, the thing is they're not always at their best. It might as well be like that, if not things would get boring and they may become more like machines or robots than mere human beings.

To me there's one match where both players played their best tennis at the same time and for the whole duration of a match, without any lapses, until that very last point, and that was the Rafa vs Verdasco semifinal match at AO2009. I've not seen any other match since then where both players can be at their best at the same time and for so long. Maybe prior to that match, there were some matches that I'd not had the chance to see. I heard that Fed vs Safin 2005 semifinal was one of those, maybe someone can enlighten me about that.

lucky, it's THAT Wimbledon Fedal final for me, probably because you really didn't know who was going to win until the very last point! Can NEVER watch Andy's matches with such degree of relaxation and enjoyment. :)

well done, Murray. Nadal is arrogant cheater. fake time-out. fake take time . too noisy always. uglt gamesmanship. annoying and arrogant fan most.

Overrated Nadal always

Something tells me that come the next inevitable Nadal-Murray slam semifinal, all this talk of decline on one side, and the sudden surge of confidence on the other will be replaced by "Nadal was always much better anyway" and "When???? is he gonna win that slam" talk, followed by the inevitable beatdown in the finals - which can also go two ways :P

Just kidding guys, but it was a 250 event. Let's maintain some perspective - Murray did the exact same thing in New York in 2008 to Rafa, but the general balance of their head to head has always been in Rafa's favour, and the reason is mental. Come the big matches, you'd pick Rafa to win them 7 times out of 10.

First mistake: Tokyo is not a 250..
Second mistake:.....

Well it's not like he didn't have the opportunity to take it away from Andy is it? He came out all guns blazing with exactly the imposing game plan you indicated, it got him an early break & a set, normally that's enough, but he couldn't drown him out this time. Murray was not to be deterred.
Rafa has benefitted from the psychological edge he has over opponents more than most No 1's  have in the past... he may start to lose it against Andy going on, as he lost it with Novak. The match up on paper for Andy should actually be better against Nadal than Federer as Murray gets more time. But I feel Andy has simply given Rafa too much respect in the past & as a result he has played the 'occasion' rather than the tennis player opposite him. Rafa has also been the better player. To me getting past all of that, playing around things & Rafa & slam finals etc, is an unavoidable  rites of passage for Andy to become a grown up because it requires him to be brave, serious & believe in himself fully. I'm not saying he's done it yet but I think it might be happening soon. And then we shall see how problematic his game is to Rafa's going on.
As for Murray saying he wasn't sure he would play that way ever again I find this surprising as it's the way he played twice before this year & almost against Ferrer the day before, so...

@ samprallica,

We could have said the exact same things about Novak, all of what?...
12 MONTHS AGO!

Sienna , 10/11/11 11:57 PM: I'm wondering why you have the impression there are many Johnny Come Lately fans of Rafa on TT? I know quite a few of us here can pin point our allegiance as far back as 2005 and some of us have followed tennis for more years than we care to own up to!!

Sosueme: Good to have you back! Your witticisms were sorely missed :-)

Hmmm, apologies to deuce, Tokyo does carry double the amount of points I specified, but you get the point.

@Sosueme, agreed - we could have said the same things about Nole, except that Nole had won a slam. That, to me, was the difference in this year's AO and what I do think will be the difference in matches to come. But, hey just my opinion - I could be dead wrong come January.

Would you not say that the Fed won even more often thanks to the psychological edge over his opponents (until recent years)?

^^ Have to agree with that, more opponents were scared of the Federer aura because of how much the media, and the general tennis community placed him on a pedestal.

I'm just saying I have reason to doubt Andy's psyche, not his game. I tend to agree with Sosueme on the fact that his game can take him to great places - if he quits junkballing so much and plays big points better in big matches. If this final is an indication of what's to come, then next year is going to be very interesting indeed.

@chloro/samps

Yeah, Fed is another one. Still is for most. But the crown is slipping now.
Novak is developing this aura too.
But for me Rafa was even more like this with the running up & down like a prize fighter and the rituals etc. Its all quite intimidating
It's such a mental game tennis, because it's so one on one.
Like Boxing in many ways.
And yes there is definite mental issues with Andy, but if you look closely it has been improving, albeit painfully slow.
Yeah Ed, Deuce I'm BACK! 
For now anyway,
Thanks my sweets.
Did you miss me?
I'm sure everyone missed me...
No?
Ha-ha!

Sosueme, did ed and I miss you? What kind of a question is that?? We've been inconsolable, cried so much our PCs were at risk of flooding. Couldn't understand why you preferred Bubbles' company to ours..."Ain't no sunshine...."

I was asking myself who was more enthralling company than us ;-))

ed, lol :)

Ednumbers maybe some of you, but many tend to think modern tennis started with Rafa or maybe in the nougthys. Wikipedia comes to help for most of you, but ask someone to talk about tennis in 80 or 90 and all they can say is boring tennis with those ace machines/
Doesnot matter ednumbers if that is your age then you could be my dad and he is a grandfather. So dadio take care;-)
It is not true those era gave cause to great batles between different playing styles. Sometging that is almost abandonned in todays game.
On this thread people are questioning Rafa with footieball. Besides the believe in Rafa is so minimal that I wonder if they really know what he did to become this far. The hate against Fed is so great that I wonder Do they really know what it took to be that great? To have 4 years like Novak had? Winning 90 + % of youre matches day in day out.
Do they really know what it takes for a fallen #1 to get back in to prime position? Do they know what it takes to win a slam.
I saw a posting who asked if Tomic was the first teenager to win against top 10? I see comments being mad like Raonic playing like Sampras!! duh I must have mist a decade of tennis to make that comparrisson. If any Raonic is like Krajicek but certainly not like Pete who was a great mover on court.
These are all small things to me to feel that there are many youngsters here or atleast people who follow tennis from the last few years and have really not hit ball themself. Be it recrational but atleast then you have the idea of how hard it is to hit a single hander!

Doesnot matter ednumbers if that is your age then you could be my dad and he is a grandfather. So dadio take care;-)


Something got mixed up but you will appreciate that this was my last sentence.Paps

People seem to forget that Rafa and Fed are not joined at the hip. Fed is five years older than Rafa and turned pro three years before him. So when Rafa was starting out, Fed was already establishing himself as the new dominant force in tennis. What was noteworthy, was Rafa's fearlessness and ability to take on Fed and trouble him right from the start. You could see the beginnings of a great rivalry, but Fed was still beating everyone else with ease. Rafa was able to dominate at RG. That was the one place were Fed could not win because Rafa was just too good. Rafa battled Fed at Wimbledon three years in a row. The third time was the charm, but look at what it took for Rafa to finally get the win. So Rafa lived in the shadow of Fed for some years and paid his dues until finally he was able to take over the #1 ranking. He also had to play Fed when he was still at his peak, no mean feat. So Rafa earned his place at the top and all that he has won.

Fed's era may be over, but Rafa is still in his prime. It is true that he turned pro earlier than Nole or Andy even though he is only one year older. So he has more mileage on his body. Now Nole has stepped up this year. I do not think his dominance will be repeated. This may finally be Andy's time. If so, I welcome it. However, I do not think one match will tell the story. It need not be minimized, but it should not be made to be the apocalypse. I already said here that I do think Andy will win his first slam in 2012. I don't know when, but it's a feeling I have had. And that was before he beat Rafa in Japan.

No matter what, Rafa is not done. He has not had it easy having to battle one of the greatest players in the game. I believe he still has much more to do in this sport.

sienna, if you wish to comment on others' posts, I suggest you first read the posts carefully. The question being asked was: is Tomic the first teenager, who came after Rafa, or Murray, Nole, Delpo, to beat a top ten player? The key words here are 'who came after Rafa...'.

We all know there are/were many teenagers who had beaten top ten players, the question now is Tomic the first after those top guys. If you don't understand the question, please don't jump in to insult others! So sienna, can you answer the question, since you claimed that you've watched so much tennis?

As far as I know, Fed wasn't the only #1 who had fallen but regained the Ye #1 again; Lendl and Rafa had also done that! As where Raonic is concerned, the comparison to Sampras was because of his style of play, which is serve based, of course can't compare their footwork; just like comparing Dimitrov to Fed, other than flair and the SHBH, who knows what else Dimitrov can offer in future? It's just that the way these youngsters play remind us of some other players who come before them.

Sienna,

From reading your posts I don't get a sense that you have much of an understanding or knowledge of tennis. So how long have you been watching? Since Fed started playing? Please don't presume to decide how long the rest of us have been watching the sport of tennis.

It is also extremely disrespectful to refer to people by corrupting or changing their screen names. It's also inappropriate to make fun of anyone's age. Do you honestly think that if someone is older then that makes them inadequate in some way? I don't see why it's any of your business how old ed or anyone else is on this forum. You go way off the topic and talk about bizarre things that are unrelated to the topic.

No one here thinks that tennis started with Rafa. That is one of the more ridiculous accusations you have made. I have spoken about players from previous decades and my feelings about them. Maybe the problem is that for someone like you, tennis only started with Fed. For the rest of us, tennis started more than a century ago and there have been great champions throughout. So why don't you read up on the history of the sport so that you can educate yourself and make some intelligent comments.

Zare repeately puts twists on the names of Fed fans, in a most derogatory manner, but I don't see anyone mounting a campaign to discipline him.It's ignored all of the time .. but we are pseudo friends.

Good morning class, Brun Hilda reporting.

@sienna, I think you have a lot more tennis knowledge than most who post here and want to acknowledge. Added to that, you know about what other players are doing, not only Fed. That said, I think you're an informed tennis fan, and don't need to know more history. I can't believe you're being disciplined in this manner.Cheer up, don't let the gang get you down.

Quit the instigating with the "Brun Hilda" comments! That is not my screen name in case you cannot read. Oh and by the way, what was that about getting involved in discussion that do not concern someone?

If you talk the talk, then walk the walk!

Is pot talking to kettle? Kettle refuses to answer.

Ricky specifically warned a poster about personal attacks on this site. Did you not read that or do you think you are the exception to the rule here?

My comment was directed at Sienna, and I am sure she is more than capable of answering without your help. Hypocritical, much?

ooh, oooh, hypocritical, eh? Well, that's name calling, so watch it. You're gunning for an argument the minute you see my name, but it's not gonna happen. BTW, did you miss me, which I why I'm getting all this love and attention? too bad, I didn't even think of you.

BTW, talking about someone being on protofol is a nasty accusation. When someone can't even handle the mention of breathing, talking about another taking drugs is not nice. Lemme see you squirm your way outta that one. Enough already, go fight with someone else.

One more time - do not call me Brun Hilda! That is not my name. And as far as missing you, why would I care.

To reiterate for the record, you stuck yourself into a conversation that did not concern you. You told me on this site repeatedly, that it was my fault for getting involved in conversations you had with other posters. In case you are incapable of understanding the issue of hypocrisy, well, when you do something that you tell others not to do, then you are being a hypocrite. Or do you need the definition written out for you.

Again, stop the inciting and instigating. I don't have any desire to interact with you in any way.

I'm not interacting with you. Go back and see who stuck whose nose into something that don't concern them? You did, by ganging up on Sienna and writing your lecture narrative. I notice that you very craftily left out the protofol charge. As far as interacting with you, don't kid yourself as to your importance, coz you're NOT. To reiterate, go fight with someone else, I'm not game.

The issue is your conduct. You did something that you expressly ordered me not to do, as though you run this site. Everyone here read exactly what you said. It's there in print. The problem is that you break your own rules. You know what you did. Sienna doesn't need you to stick your nose in this conversation. So take your own advice and stop interfering in conversations that are not about you.

This site was peaceful for a few days because you weren't here to spew out your toxic venom. You didn't waste any time in tracking me down and going at it again. So calling someone Brun Hilda is not instigation and incitement? Too bad, because that's the only way you can get anyone to interact with you.

I'm not going to take your bait by responding to your lies and exaggerations. It's what you're angling for. Go fight with the people you fought with, when I wasn't here, e.g., chicamarie, and others.I see you were going at it with numero again. That olive branch was dead before it was offered. lol.

Since you love to check out everything I write here in detail, I suggest you go back to ChicaMarie's post and then read what Ricky said to her. He specifically warned her about getting banned for personal attacks. Maybe you skipped over that comment and that's why you posted a personal attack on me, with no provocation whatsoever. The nice thing about posting a comment, is that it's there for everyone to read. You are the guilty party for opening your big mouth again in a conversation that was not about you or concerned you in any way. Too bad!

If necessary, I will temporarily leave this site to avoid any more of your desperate and sad tactics. Please find another way to get attention here.

Good luck with that!

Not going to take the bait.

Sienna. This is a bit late in the day but I would just like to say I was not offended by your response to my question and reference to age but for the record I am a grandmother not a grandfather. lol.

@ed, how very nice of you to be so kind to Sienna. It must be tough on her, trying to explain herself and having to deal with some of the hostile posters because her English is not up to par. I give her credit for coming on here, a predominantly English speaking site, and trying to commingle with others because of her love for tennis. It can't be easy for her. I'm sure some here who keep berating her would find it even more difficult if they found themselves on a Dutch site. You're a compassionate person, ed. I don't usually hand out compliments unless one is deserving, and you fit the bill very nicely. You must be a very good and loving grandmamere. You're one whose age is a plus instead of a minus. Peace.

^^ LOL. I'm sure ed is a nice person and all, but the rest of all that was written has left me wondering whether you actually believe what you post sometimes :D

@scoretracker

"talking about someone being on protofol is a nasty accusation"
Are you referring to me Scoretracker?

now you are vying for miss congeniality?

Sosueme, No, not you. It's the other poster who scolded Sienna for what she perceives to be Sienna's lack of knowledge of tennis and other unrelated stuff. See @10/13/11 4:27 AM, Therefore, it's why I brought up the protofol, coz the scolder referred to it after you mentioned it.

@samprallica, I wonder about you sometimes myself. You love to take digs at me, albeit I don't give you and your posts a second glance, that's deserving of a reply. I don't blame you coz it's obvious you're very juvenile in your thinking. See your October 10 post on the Federer thread; a one liner, which says volumes.

@phoenix, certainly not where you're concerned, coz your opinion of me counts for zilch. I happen to like a few posters here, coz i find them to be fair, viz, ed, numero, sienna, bleck , danica and natashao, and I act accordingly with them. You, and your nonsensical one-liners are immaterial to me. Guess what, you're extremely predictable. I can always count on a nasty, nonsensical one-liner coming from your end to stir up the pot ; you're so predictable.. lol.Lemme ask you this, if I wanted to be Miss congeniality, don't you think I'd agree with every one of you regardless of the garbage you expound? Now, go figure that one out.

ed,

Thanks for letting me know that you weren't offended by what sienna said. I will keep that in mind for future reference, especially when she is criticized again.

It's alway good to know where one stands.

samprallica,

I could not agree with your comment more! Well said!

phoenix,

I love your one-liners. Very honest and on the mark! Funny, too! :)

Yes and thank ypu scoretracker. I'll take it all in a good way. About my english wellI understand everything what is said, but to expressyourself in a different tongue is a hard thing to do. So sometimes youre lost for the right word or matter of speak.

The Nadanino's do have one very foul way about themselves in adressing Fedfans. If one is inan encounter then you'll see the other suspects immediately retaliate. Sothe ganging up as you call it is very unpleasent.
And of course if youre english is not quit up to par then you'll get warned by the moderators. I have noticed that it actually is allowed to speak a litle harder against fans like me who clearly suppport Fed. So maybe Cheryl, Ricky can take a closer look at themselves in being as unbiased as they claim to be. But again I am not offended withanything people on this site are saying. It just shows where they come from and what there dubbel standards are.

And Ed(wina) ? if youre a ladybird How did I get the impression youre a pops? Vendictive judgement must be my sin.
So Luckystar with you strange claim to teenage succes you have clearly give a point to my assumption that many of you follow tennis from the Rafa yeats..... Why else ask a feath wich is so common in tennis that it is actually not noteworthy to give praise to a player for. Thank you

And you say you watch lots of tennis, sienna, when you're unable to notice the trend now, that not many teenagers were inside the top 100, as recently as last year. Rafa, Nole, Murray and Delpo, all made it to the top 100 in their teens and by 19, they're all inside top 50 or even top 20. Even Fed's batch, we have Fed, Hewitt, Safin, Roddick all doing well in their teens.

Looking at the current batch of young up and comers, it was only at the beginning of this year that we saw a 20-21 yo Raonic surged many places in the rankings to reach top 100, he's currently just outside top 30. Dimitrov at 20 is currently ranked outside top 50, Harrison at 19 is also ranked outside top 50 and both are within top 100. Tomic has the best ranking among these youngsters, at 48 or 49. I'm just curious to find out other than Tomic, has any of these youngsters, while in their teens, has beaten any top ten players; that may be one good way to gauge the abilities of these youngsters though not the only way.

I feel you are looking to tennis with a wikipedia control freak. Just keeping track of results that happen 5, 6 years ago. You do know that a scoreline does not tell the whole story?
But the trend I see from the Fed/Nadal Djokovices onwards is that tennis players are in mind, body and tactics at almost 100%. Compared to earlier era's. So a youngster breaking through is not easy.
And a player needs 2-3 maybe 4 years to get used to the lifestyle and get his body and mind into ATP toplevel . If ever? Look at De Bakker. I feel topguy's are trained machines they know just what to do. (sort of)
And there are still only 100 place in ATP top 100 and 10 in ATP top 10. If there is no room to manouvre then there can be no new players breaking through.
I feel that the players of Fedsera so to speak are still quit well presented in top 100 so that gives me conformation that the players in his era where also quit good.

In the slams it is particularly noticeble that 3/ 4th rounders are old players who reach them. Slams alre tough and you need experience to win. Or you want to have a cracking serve.

Sienna, this era is far tougher than Federer's earlier era,
The eras are all different & difficult to compare, but when you consider that the No 1 's surrounding Rogers early career, that are still around, Hewitt, Ferrero, Roddick etc it's clear that it was a weaker era.
And it's clear to everyone, Roger accepts it also.
And I can still see that Roger is a genius & one of the greatest players ever without trying to rewrite history.
I also agree with you that the reason there are 2 teenagers only in the top 100 now when in the past there used to be so many is because Tennis is much more physical now. Therefore a longer period of maturation is required to meet the minimum in strength and fitness. 
That's one objective indication that 'now' is stronger than ever before.
Don't you think?
It's common sense, & really not up for debate. Look at Andy Murray & even Novak, it takes longer to develop now. I believe this physicality 'bar' btw was raised by Nadal.
Ironically he himself has not managed to meet his own lofty standards this year & his results have consequently suffered.

Which is why I asked the question 'is Tomic the first teenager after Rafa, Murray ....' because I'm impressed by him, knowing how tough it is now for a teenager to crack into top 50. A simple question like this can attract so much 'criticism' now that's beyond me.

sosueme, it's not ironical. The game is so physical now that if you're a little bit off in your fitness, you'll most likely be overtaken. It happens to Fed in 2008 and it happens to Rafa now in 2011. Rafa's 2011 is almost similar to Fed's 2008, having won one slam and reached the final of another two. Fed reached eight finals that year, winning four and losing four to Rafa. This year Rafa reached ten finals losing six to Nole, one to Murray and winning three.

In fact IMO, Rafa's career closely resembles Fed's if not for his many injuries that hinders his progress. If not for that 2009 injury, I feel that Rafa may have another three slams year then and his slam count would be twelve instead of ten now, similar in number to Fed's twelve in 2007, and that's when both were nine years into competing in slams, Fed from 1999-2007, and Rafa from 2003-2011.

It's a physically more demanding game these days, even Fed agreed about that and it seems nobody can reverse the trend. We have to see how Nole and Murray fare from now on. I'm also interested to see how the two giants Delpo and Cilic fare when they hit their peak in this physically demanding era, before I concentrate on the next batch of youngsters.

I'm juvenile in my thinking, and yet my posts deserve a response from the wise old priest. Juvenile must be good.

Btw, the October 10 post is what proves you are an ace clown. What takes you paragraphs and essays to accomplish, takes just one line for me. Efficient, no?

@sienna, I see you've figured out how it works here. When one attacks, then it becomes free for all, the gang attacks, with each one uttering more nastiness than the other. It's like a competiion between them to see how much nastier the other can be, or how low they can keep going.

The one who lectured you thinks she is the owner of this site and has to control everyone. It's none of her business, but she makes it so. During the time I've been on here, I've seen her pick on the Fed fans without any provocation whatsoever. Your discussion was between ed and yourself, so how was it that it became her fight? She picks on all the newcomers who are Fed fans, then her cohorts jump in to give her support, which delights her. Their support gives her more ammunition to vent more mumbo-jumbo.

I suppose you noticed that she has very expertly avoided her reference to you being on protofol. Very selective isn't it? Instead she got into the usual mumbo-jumbo, by turning things around and stating that I ordered her not to get involved in my disc ussions. Can anyone order this woman to do an ything? That's the biggest joke of all. I would suggest to you that you ignore her and olthers who try to criticize you, coz it's a waste of time. It's like talking to a brick wall, but they seem to enjoy it. There's only one person who's right, and is allowed to twist the facts to suit themselves and it's her, NNY. She uses words which she obviously don't understand their meaning, just to manipulate others.

Just keep on posting, and ignore her coz she isn't worth the time. She tried very hard to bait me, but I refuse to take her bait, and she'll refer to it for weeks to come. She never lets go of anythng. It's like a dog with a good bone who won't give it up even though it's dried and worthless.

You spent three paragraphs talking about NNY yet you claim that you are ignoring her and refused to take her bait? LOL! My octogenarian neighbor has a lot more sense than you.

How about a course in comprehension. Do you see me talking to NNY? I'm talking to Sienna. BTW, where's your nonsensical one-liner? You wrote 3.

There's a word for you that would fit you perfectly, but we're not allowed to use personal insults, or else I'd tell you what you really are, in ONE word. don't you have anything to do but pick on the Fed fans on this site? How worthless a life you must live. I feel sorry for you that you're so devoid of a meaningful existence.

gotcha! did i say you're "talking to"? i said "talking about"... now there's that course in comprehension for you.

...and btw, if you're idea of a meaningful existence is writing kilometric dissertations on a tennis blog site, then you can have all that life to yourself.

I can talk all I want to someone else about your dear friend, but it's not going to give her the satisfaction she craves, which is to get me to interact with her. She craves a good old knockout argument, which relieves all her pent up frustrations of her dear Rafa's loss. I suppose you're feeling the same effects which is why you're picking on me? Pick all you want, it won't change what has happenend to him, got it? Know what, there's a level people should not sink to, and you keep sinking past that level. Have fun doing what you do best, demonstrating to everyolne that you're some one else's lackey.

I think you need to tell your cohort about kilometric dissertations. She wrote the book on it.

@Lucky.
Well, it is ironic if you believe as I do that Nadal was the one that originally set the bar. At least in the British sense of the word (although I'm not really British anymore).
& So what if your criticised Lucky, you can handle it now surely, can you not?
Anyway, I find the whole baby versions of the top players very amusing.
Tomic's baby Murray (although seemingly more aligned with Novak)
Dimitrov's baby Fed
Raonic's baby Sampras,
Dolgopolovoolop's baby.... er a fish on a bicycle singing  gilbert & sullivan backwards.
Okay maybe a baby Santoro or something.
But, I saw Murray play Dimitrov in Bangkok, it was a really good match & brought a wry smile from Andy concerning Dimi's impudent & excellent play.
Here's the problem, Andy's played the real thing & this is not really the same. Just because it looks kind of similar doesn't mean it IS similar.
Although they'll all have their moments for sure.
I can't tell the future, but on present evidence I would say that after The top 4 retire. We could enter a weak era similar to the early Federer period. As there's no one really around right now to take up the mantle later.
Good news is.. I suspect we shall have at least another 5 years of 'Nolandy'  & a few others (maybe Delpo,  even Marin & quite a lot of the present top 20)with revolving intrigues to sustain us until someone does arise.
Or we might be following something else racquet based.
Badminton has it's moments I hear!

Sosueme, That's the first time I've ever heard about the Nolandy. What the hell is that supposed to mean, an era of domination by djokovic and murray?! Murray??!!!!!
You say "another" 5 years, does that mean it has already started? Tell me when because I'm not seeing it.

Even some delusional fan who got some rule for the defining of how strong an era was did so by the number of players with a certain amount of GS titles. Yes GS titles, how many does Andy have? ZERO!!! Murray's best year title wise was 2009 with 6, two of them being MS. Is that dominating?!

Murray beat nadal in a 500 tournament final, he bagled nadal but that's it. That doesn't make him a dominating player. Nolandy?! You've got to be kidding me. Just mentioning murray alongside djokovic is crap. Djokovic is 64-3 with 3 GS, what has murray done this year?

I'm not talking about the past, or the present.
I'm talking about going on.
I don't like that word anyway (Nolandy) shouldn't have used it.
Also, I didn't claim Novak & Andys achievements were comparable, jeez!
But it's reasonable to assume the younger memebers of the top 3 shall be around at the top for another 5 years or so.
Oh and by that I  mean Nadal, Andy, Novak.
Not Roger.
And really, you should calm down, hysteria doesn't become you.

When you say that we sould have another I assume it has happened already. When you say Nolandy you include Andy. So in my mind I was thinking Andy is dominating what? Tennis?!

Look I really want murray to do well and win some GS. But let's wait until AO next year to see if Murray has finally got the right mindset to win a slam or not.

Look man I really did not say or suggest that.
Murray is practically the number 3 player in the world, that means he is 'better' than everyone else apart from the top 2. That's clear.
As a fan I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for him to dominate for a period either. In fact I think its a reasonable prediction. If he breaks through there could be an avalanche.
Or not, but I wouldn't bet my house on him not reaching some kind of critical mass soon, the signs at least are there. For the future.
Novak has been on the tour 2 years longer than Murray & has only been No 1 for what, 10 minutes. Not that anyone thought Novak was going to do what he did even a year ago. In fact he was written off by many.
My argument was about the top 4 players on tour compared to what's on the horizon. Not who has the most slams etc.
And I certainly wasn't saying Andys the dominate player at the moment.
That would be ridiculous!

Sorry sosueme, 'plays like' doesn't mean that they'll be totally like the real thing. I'm talking about STYLE here, nothing else. How am I suppose to know that they'll be like these 'real thing', especially if we're tallking about achievements here, when I'm not into fortune telling!

Yeah sure,
I wasn't getting on Luckystars case about that. It was a general point.
Ha-ha!

Raonic Sampras... Really that is a joke. They should not be mentioned in the same sentence. Raonic can hardly move.

If Fed would have been in TMF mode at this point in time he would have beaten Djokovic at every slam leaving only (perhaps) Garros to Nadal. I does not matter who would have played during the TMF years he would won either way Wimbly or the HC slams. So Feds era is never weak he mada those stronger players himself. it is his fault tennis is raised to the level he got at.........
Have a good one.

Somebody doesn't understand English, I see.

nothing wrong with my english. It's ridiculous to compare Raonic to Sampras.
I've seen it from more posters. Was it you or Sosueme. Then that is not a very tennis insigthfull observation. I thougth that was where you were all about?

It was me, Sienna.
I didn't call Raonic Baby Sampras, others did. I merely commented on it.
And had you read my post you would understand my view of such monikers.
And that is why Lucky questioned your comprehension.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you were probably feeling a little bit lazy & couldn't be bothered reading it.
Okay?
Problem solved.
NEXT!

hey deuce - i haven't been in bed, just out the country, sooooo annoyed i missed it (but I did predict it, the way muzz had been playing) and I've been so desperate to see the highlights ... not disappointed. winner after winner, rather than forced error after forced error. sorry nadal fans (but after what rafa's been doing to muzz all year, muzz was due this) but this was a real pummeling by muzz, and coming back from a set down to do it says a lot for what's going on up top too. if muzz can just hold his game together this week-end, he's #3 on monday :-)
again commies to rafa fans for going out so soon in shanghai. he'll be back to his winning ways next year, after he's had a good winter rest (but hopefully after oz).

Ok it was luckystar comparing Raonic to Sampras solely on his servebased game. Stupid if you ask me. Raonic is more to krajicek/Ivanisevic then Pete. You could have sai Rafter, Philopoussis or Greg Rusedski all very good servers with many more similarity to Raonic then Pete had. Even Becker was.
Where do people have the idea that Raonic will be multiple slamwinner. He would be lucky to win 1like De Kraai at the moment. There is nothing in Raonic game that reminds of Sampras. I would say he has more resemblences with Nadal then Pete. He does have a doublehandedbh?
But never mind . I/m done for a couple of days. I will come back when you are feasting the Murray move. or when TMF brings back some order andbrains to the negotiating table. Murray and Nadal are losing the plot a little here. They both have special ladyfriends? Why dont they catch a movie or something.

Good grief, I am not even posting here and yet I see that the attacks against me have not stopped.

phoenix,

I appreciate your spot on comments and how you have been calling this wretched person out on the obvious contradictions. But scoretracker is the dog who cannot let go of that bone, being me! I must be very important, as you can see.

Your zingers are too accurate to be dismissed. Thank you for telling it like it is, pointing out the weird and stalkerish behavior of scoretracker. However, I don't want you to become a target. As you see, scoretracker loves being a martyr to no end and crying about being so terribly victimized.

Too bad nobody here is buying it!

@NNY,
YEAH!
Why is Scoretracker so INTO you Native?!
It's not like you're offensive or anything.
Okay, so you're a Nadal fan, but if that ludicrous poll is anything to go by,
So is just about everyone aware of this site!
I've never even seen you diss Roger directly, 
Harmless is the wrong word..let's just say you are  comparatively well behaved.
And yet s/he stalks you like a serial killer!
It's weird. Unsettling.
I thought you East coasters would at least conduct a cold war if in disagreement..it's funny (but not really).
& I personally don't like to see it.

Sosueme,

Hey, you owe me! I am getting blamed for the propofol remark! See how it goes? Someone says something, I respond and my comment is twisted to mean something that it did not. I was trying to bring some levity to the conversation, but look at how it got blown up into something evil and sinister.

On the serious side, I do feel like I am being stalked. It's getting to be very weird. Anything I write is remembered and regurgitated verbatim. Am I that important? To one person, it would seem. I think it has gotten way out of hand. I am hoping that the people who run this site will put a stop to it.

I appreciate your honesty. You haven't been here all that long, yet I haven't come across as a serial killer to you. Maybe if enough people complain, then this will cease. No one else is being singled out in this manner.

Phoenix has been busy with the one-liners and has been getting on this person's case. It's a gift to use wit and sarcasm to let someone know that their behavior is utterly beyond the pale.

Thanks for the support! :)

You're welcome sweetheart!
You're a NICE person (tm). That is evident to all, but one.
However even nice people can get drawn into strange dynamics.
And you know you eventually forget why the f!?k it all kicked off in the first place!
You're being demagogued for reasons I can't quite fathom. It's not right.
What's more... its BORING!
Now Scoretracker clearly picked a good name as s/he has some serious scores to settle. Maybe normally this person is also nice, mmm. But It would be best for both of you to draw a clean slate &  ignore each other (particularly ONE of you)entirely  as this is completely pointless!
There's room for both of you, just not interacting together, right?
I'm getting sick of it myself & may review my non intervention regulations concerning other peoples conflicts.
But sometimes, you have to finally stick your nose in for the greater good.

So you are telling me to ignore it? I have been trying, easier said than done. I don't like seeing myself characterized in a way that has nothing to do with who I am. Then if I am confronted again and called such charming names as "Brun Hilda" and goodness knows what else, and attacked for some comment I made somewhere on this site that no one else would care that much about, then I should just say nothing and let it go? I can try, but you must realize that this cyber bullying is extremely unpleasant. That's what it is, cyber bullying. You hear about these stories in the news involving teenagers and then there is some tragedy and the person who is being bullied takes their own life. We are adults on this site, so it should not be happening.

I think it is taking up too much space on this site. Also, remember it does take two to stop the fighting.

You have great energy! Don't leave us again!

Listen, if you're being provoked NNY, then you have EVERY right to do something about it. I haven't seen all of the subtleties of your tryst with the Score, but if I was being attacked....well, let's just say I don't take any prisoners!
I'm partly American, my grandfather is a yank, they go back centuries there.
I feel more American in spirit for sure. I love the friendliness of the American people, their excitement about everything &  incredible positivity. So  I can't help thinking that you & Scoretracker have better things to do than squabble with each other.
But I'm with you 100% in this argument for sure.

Sigh. Some people argue for the sake of arguing. So why do people call Gasquet 'baby Federer' in the first place? Does Gasquet have 16 slams? What he has is his SHBH and maybe some flair in the way he plays his game and yet people started calling him baby Fed when they saw him play. If you ask me, I see nothing in Gasquet that resembles Fed. The same may be said of Raonic vs Sampras. It's just that people are placing high hopes on these youngsters once they see something promising in them and started to compare them to previous tennis stars. Now of course they'll compare him to a 14 slams wonder rather than a one slam one. Who would care if he actually resembles a one slam wonder, nothing sensational about that. Of course they'll always compare the promising one with the best, just like comparing Gasquet to Fed, and now Dimitrov to Fed. Does Gasquet have the potential to win 16 slams? Highly unlikely. What about Dimitrov? Who knows?

And the question I asked, no one seemed able to answer or don't bother to answer, but more interested in insulting others, telling others how very knowledgable one is about tennis. I see.

For goodness sake, I'm not the one who started comparing Raonic to Sampras. It's the commentators, the media and some other people involved in the tennis industry. Why don't sienna write to them and call them stupid?

Raonic like Nadal?? That's a stupid comparison!! Ridiculous! Now I seriously doubt that 'somebody' has anything up there!

It seems people here are more interested in picking up quarels and insulting others than to discuss about tennis. Fortunately the season is ending soon, won't have to visit this site and read the insults and quarrels that people hurl at each other here. Thank goodness!

WOW, this is unbelievable.
@Sosueme, are you for real? You're both two of a kind. nah, add in Phoenikx, and make that three of a kind. You're all good chums who can't see right from wrong. Maybe instead of playing dumb you should read just this thread and see what tool place just a couple of days ago. Sienna was lambasted by NNY.

If I'm so offensive and am this "wretched" person, as NNY likes to refer to me and sienna, (I tholught personal insults were not allowed. chicaMarie was lectured by NNY on this topic) why don't you report me the moderators. I'm sure they are aware of what's happening and have more wisdom that the four of you.Anyway, enjoy yourselves. Sosueme, I hope you're not a guy, colz guysz don't behave like you.

lucky,

Reasonable people will understand the comparison of the up and coming youngsters to great champions. You are trying to converse and have a discussion with someone who is incapable of responding in kind.

Yes, there are people who are more interested in quarrels and insulting others any chance they can get. It's personal and that is what is most important.

I tell you, there is nothing like being gone all day from this site and coming back to see that I am being attacked in absentia! Now that's unbelievable!

@NNY, "Phoenix appreciate your spot on comments and how you have been calling this wretched person out on the obvious contradictions. But scoretracker is the dog who cannot let go of that bone, being me! I must be very important, as you can see."

STOP referring to me AS "wretched'. You gave chicaMarie a whole sermon on personal insults, and you're the one using them time and time again, because you get away with your underhand stuff. You know darn well why I spoke up. You were picking on sienna for something that didn't concern you, mentioning her use of drugs. you sholuld be banned. You are not going to stop going after me until I stop posting here. that is your little scheme, but it's not going to work. Send some more emails to the moderators, I'm sure they have ten times the intelligence you and your cohorts have and it's the reason they're not giving you the time of day.

LOL, she was going at sienna and me all day yesterday. This is so funny.

"Yes, there are people who are more interested in quarrels and insulting others any chance they can get. It's personal and that is what is most important." NNY

You should take a good look at yourself @ @Nativenewyorker, 10/13/11 4:27 AM, on this very thread, before writing the above. In essence, you're talking about yourself.

What?
Trust me I am a guy.
And what I dont like to see is anyone play the  victim card the creepy way you do.
You have this weird passive aggressive vibe, 
Everybody is out to get you, everyones after Fleur etc boo hoo!
Poor little me!
It's like you're always on your f?!king period when you post here.
When all is said & done Scoretracker, you are a TROLL.
You come on TT to argue, that's all.

"I haven't seen all of the subtleties of your tryst with the Score, but if I was being attacked....well, let's just say I don't take any prisoners!"

But yet you open your big mouth when you don't have all the facts. You ARE the TROLL. Glad tol know you're on NNY's side all the way. Let's see now, she has you, and phoenix, a very nice trio. Enjoy.

I don't come here to argue. I comment on the matches, but this person makes it impossible to do so when she's always clucking about something. Every thread she's picking at a Fed fan for no reason whatsoever. It's irritating to see so much hate for us Fed fans.

I don't care about you Scoretracker,
Nobody does,
I'm not aligned with anyone here, I don't know them from Adam!
And if NNY was being an asshole trust me, I'd blast her with acid, 
We don't even like the same players.
It's you that's the problem.
Also, stop trying to get so emotionally involved here!
Who cares?
It's just a tennis forum, FFS!
Not some crappy self help group for the mentally frail.
We're really not your fu!?king shrinks, seek professional help if you need it.
Okay?
No one cares whether you live or die on the Internet. That's a fact.
My advice  is that you cultivate healthier relationships out there in the real world, with real humans.
Stop arguing & stop spilling your guts on TennisTalk. It's embarrassing!
Not that anyone reads it ofcourse, it's hideously boring.
Im not just being horrible either, im trying to help & it's for the best.
I think you should leave here for a while, go on a holiday or something.
Stop bullying people you wouldn't even recognise on the street!
In short F,?K Off!

So you own this site that you feel you have the right to sound off at me with your filthy language. I know I'm not the problem, it's you, coz you were told so by Jean, or have you forgotten. I happen to read a lot of the old threads so don't pretend to be my judge and jury. You are the one who definitely needs the shrink. All you're doing is ganging up with the others just to be in the group, and you know it. Anyone who can read can see NNY is a huge problem. She picks on people for no reason. It's she who spills her guts on TT talking about her numerous illnesses, and then gets into a hissy fit if anyone dare mentions anything.

I think you should leave me alone and mind your own business. I'll leave when I'm good and ready and not because you feel I should do so. I'm not going to bother with your sick, childish behavior, coz what goes around comes around. I can bet before the week is out, NNY will be picking on someone else and so will you. People like the two of you are only happy when they can vent at others. It's your antidote to seeing a shrink. Have a good night with your shrink, coz you definitely need it.

The situation here is a simple one. Some of the Nadal fans hate the Fed fans, and they pick on them/us nonstop. NNY is the chief culprit, she never lets up. Then her cohort, or echo, Phoenix, is on the tailend, coming at us with her stupid one-line zingers, which NNY loves, because it's reinforcement for her, so she finds the zingers to be witty, and compliments phoenix for a job well-done. It's pathetic NNY cannot fight her battles alone, she always needs backup. Then, there's you who want so desperately to fit in and be popular with the Nadal group, contrary to what you're saying, and what we have is a huge division -- a ganging up against the Fed fans. Because I'm a Fed fan, I'm not liked for sticking up for my rights. But, because I do that I hear I'm a victim. Did I say I wanted to win a popularity contest? I complimented ed because she was kind to sienna, and the miserable Phoenix stated I was vying for Ms. Congeniality. But when NNY writes her narratives to ed, or anyone else seeking kudos and to make herself appear as a lovely person, Phoenix is silent And, of course, last but not least, there's the holier than thou two, who are Djokovic fans, who get into the mix and seek to berate me coz they have score to settle with me, for my remarks about Novak. . That's the synopsis of the situation here.

There were fights before I got here, there are fights now, the Nadal fans fighting among themselves, and there will be fights after I leave here. This is not about me, this is about several people jockeying for position as the chief honcho, and seeking kudos to be lauded as the most wonderful. My vote goes to Sousueme, NNY, and Phoenix as the chief instigators. NNY wants to be the boss.. It's unbelievable what goes on and how blind some really are.

Last but not least, Sosueme, I don't say boo to you, or maybe that's the problem. I just avoid you. Had you not taken it upon yourself to insert my name into your discussion with NNY, I'd not have said anything to you. So don't tell me to f off, coz, I'm not the one who started anything with you. It was all YOU and your friend NNY. You must be very blind or lacking in comprehension that you can't see what NNY does and how she deflects her wrongdoing onto others. She's very adept at twisting stuff around with the aid of her keyboard. I'm easy prey coz I don't interact with anyone, or belong to a clan, I keep to myself, and I stand alone, but that takes guts. It's the weak who have to have a gang to support them. would Phoenix and NNY behave in this manner if this were a predominantly Federer fan crowd? Of course not. I am strong and it's why I'm hated by people like NNY and you sosueme, coz I don't need to suck up to the likes of you two.

I love to talk about tennis, and for a few days this week I was able to write on a few threads, but that's all been soured by the one who loves attention.

For the record, I was not on this site until later in the day. Yet when I came on here to join in the discussion, to my horror I saw that scoretracker had already posted more attacks against me. What I want to say, is that this is the ultimate act of cowardice, hiding behind an anonymous screen name and spewing out lies and garbage about someone else.

After scoretracker posts more attacks, then the m.o. is to quickly go to any and all topic threads and try to pretend that she wants to discuss tennis. One or two comments after the tirades and scoretracker has supposedly covered her tracks.

Phoenix says what he thinks and no one needs to tell him what to think. He called it for what it was - someone who won't stop, even as she says that she doesn't want to interact.

This is the behavior of a troll, and trying to go around and occasionally say something about tennis when 99% of the posts are attacks against me, is not going to fool anyone.

NNY, stop your garbage. From the time of your posts, you were on this site late last night, and then came back again later in the day on 10/14.

I responded to sienna's comment thanking me and her discussion on her English skills or lack thereof. And, IK further mentioned your behavior. why shouldn't I? You came after me because I said Zare calls other people distorted names, and my comments were just general, however, you toolk it upon yourself to come after me. That was the opening you needed to unload, and unload you did. Just scroll up and you'll see who did what. Thankfully, it's all here on this thread for all to see.

All you're doing is trying to make me look bad, but that's OK, coz I'm not the one trying to uphold an image as a lovely person, and I don't care zilch about impressing anyone or what they think of me. That's your forte. I leave that to you.

BTWE, When I was commenting on the other threads about the matches being played the night before last, where were you? I didn't get on the Roddick thread last night coz I saw you were there and I wanted to avoid you. Maybe you don't realize it, but I stay away from many discussions coz I don't want to be around you, especially on the threads pertaining to Nadal. It's the reason i don't have much to say at times on Nadal, coz most of the discussion is abolut him, and I don't want to tread on your toes.. There's so much fighting between the Nadal fans, so is it any wonder why I keep away from those threads? I suppose you'd like me to get on every thread and talk about the Tennis channel like you do. I guess you feel you're the only one who has the tennis channel which is why you brief us in detail? ha ha so funny.

You say 99% of my posts are attacks on you. That's a lie; it's the other way around. 99% of your posts are attacks on Fed fans. I respond to your attacks on me and sometimes on Sienna coz I feel you bully her around too much and I'm sick of seeing the bullying you do. It's so wrong to bully an ESL person, coz they are at a deficit answering you and your keyboard. There was no need for you to read her the riot act because her discussion was with ed, but as per usual, you being the boss, had to take action. and put her in her place. I'm glad you got your just rewards. Sometimes vindication is swift, just remember that, and what goes around comes around.

You are so pathetic saying I attack you then run to other threads to write comments. I happen to post on the first thread that comes up then I move my way down, but isn't it just like you to look for something to degrade me? Keep up the good job of tearing me down. Just remember, it will all come back to you. Others will give it back to you double.

I leave you now to stew in your misery as I'll be ol vacation. Have a glod time grinding my name in the dust. I wonder if a count was taken, how many people have left this site because of your attacks on them. The number might be shocking.

BTW, it takes a professional troll to know when another is being one. You are the troll, not me. Stop with the personal insults, and do as you p-r-e-a-c-h. Be a good girl and don't attack anyone while I'm gone. lol.

scoretracker,

You don't get to tell me when I am on this site and when I am not! So don't go quoting times of posts because you don't know when I leave or come back. I know!

You keep throwing up a lot of nonsense to try to confuse and distract, but your posts are there. You attacked me when I wasn't on this board. So phoenix told you off, because he and everyone else here are sick to death of reading your tirades against me. Look at you! Have you stopped? The idea that you are trying to avoid me is absolutely comical! Why do you think people say the things they do? You don't even realize that everyone can read and see what you are saying here. You can't lie your way out of it, even though you keep on trying. So when phoenix confronted you with your own contradiction, you attacked me as my lackey. No, he is just someone who sees right through you.

I am the one who has to stay away to get away from the stench of your comments. I was involved with a tennis match and surprise! - actually talking with a few others on a live blog. Imagine that! It's so nice when you are not around, because then we can all focus on the matches, instead of having to read your epic essays about me. Everyone knows who and what you are. Everyone.

I don't believe a word you say, so that stuff about a vacation means nothing to me. If you are gone, then I will have a chance to finally have the freedom to chat about tennis here. But I won't believe it until I see it!

I definitely need to correct a typo in my last post. When phoenix confronted you with your own contradiction, you attacked HIM as my lackey!

No, he can think for himself. By the way, he wasn't defending me, he was telling you off!

I am not allowed to make fun about privats stuff between Nadanino and Nada amd Sosueme can go ahead with terms like Fo. etc/ It is the Zare variant all over on this site realy stupifys me how you dare to raise your finger to Fedfans.

Nativenewyorke I finbd youre comments so long and boring. You always seem to pick a fight with scoretracker. Please try to show some class and dignity.

Scoretracker you defend yourself very well against the ongoing unsloughts of nativenewyorker.

Oh please! Sorry, not going to take the bait from someone who has conducted herself in such a sorry way on this site.

NNY, you talk to much. You argue to much. You are to much. You the sorry peson here. Leave people alone.