Fed is after Wimbledon the only one who can stop the Djoker. Nadal is KO after his fifth straight defeath. The bull is deadly wounded en still does not know the final sword hangs out of his neck. On his knees with the mind still willing to go on, but the body unable. Sad but true 25 and already in decline.
Fed looks more and more the top contender of the Djoker. He is gonna have a ball in the last months of the year.

The Fed who hasn't even reached the final of the last 6 Grand Slams? You are saying he is the top contender and Nadal who is the winner of 4 out of the last six and reached the final of a fifth one is in decline?
Oh Sienna, why do you embarrass yourself by making such moronic posts? Better ask Sanju to send you the Panchatantra. In the meantime please do not make a laughing stock of yourself by making such ridiculous posts.

holdserve are you forgeting RG 2011 final, nadal against who, let me think...
Oh I remembered in your own words "The Fed who hasn't even reached the final of the last 6 Grand Slams"!!!!

dnalves, your point?
ok, I missed Fed's one final but does it change the argument? All that your post points out is that in setting out Fed's accomplishments ( or rather lack thereof) I missed out one final. But the main thrust of my argument is not changed in any way viz that
Sienna's claim that Fed is a top contender and Nadal is in decline is ridiculous.
I should probably have also mentioned that Fed exited in the quarters in three of them losing to second tier players i.e. those outside the regular top 4. While in one he claimed injury, he had no such excuse in the other two.
Fed is in decline, something not apparent to delusional Fedtards.
Rafa is still no. 2, has won 4 out of the last six slams, reached the finals of all the 5 masters played this year, winning one of them, won one grand slam this year and reached the final of another and has won totally 4 titles this year so far.
Federer has only one title this year, failed to reach the final of any masters and was badly humiliated by both Rafa and Djokovic, has reached the final of one 500 event and one grand slam and hasn't won in the last six slams.
Do these revised statistics support Sienna's contention that Fed is a top contender and Rafa is in decline?

Well said mate - holdserve , 7/7/11 12:19 AM

I don?t bother arugin or wasting my time reading fedtards post anything, its just like you wouldn?t bother reasoning with retards and morons as your unlikely to talk any senses into them.

I agree with you completely that Fed is nowhere near the form he was in 5-6 yrs back and the ONLY reason why he was able to dominate was due to the WEAK ERA that he was in that made him look unbeatable. The truth is guys like Roddick, Ferrero, Hewiit who all took turns becoming World No.1 was a disgrace of tennis era. Look at the competition Sampras had on route to each of his 14 slams. He more often than not had to face the lieks of Agassi, Chang, Muster, McEnroe, Lendl, Rafter, Connors the absolute legends of the game, and who did Fed had to beat to win all his 16th??

He beat Roddick 3 times, beat Gonzo, Baghdatis for OZ final (cmon are you srs???), beat Soda for French final, who is a second tier player, beat Safin yrs ago inMelbourne when he clearly wasn?t at his best after the previous 5 setter again Haas, He beat Murray in US (cmon, he?s just another nalbandian), Agassi when he was 33!!! He beat PHillipoussis for his maiden Wimbledon, beat Rafa twice when Rafa was just learning how to walk then, which is barely a meaningful results. All in all, none of Fed?s win in the slam was actually worthy of a noticeable slam win. I mean lets be perfectly honest, every single important slam match he?s been in the current era ie.last 3 yrs he has clearly come out second best. From losing to Rafa, which is EVERY major he?s palyed against him since 08 and losing to Djoker, or just simply any Tom and Jerry e.g. Berdych, Tsonga, Soda and he DOES NOT carry any injury at all. If this doesn?t show his decline I really don?t know what it is.

Saying Rafa is in decline is very ludicrous, I am not goin into the details as HOLDSERVE has already more than demonstrated that fact. Sometimes I really wish the FEDTARDS would think for a sec before commenting on how good Fed really is, as IMO he NEVER WAS that good to begin with, but VERY VERY lucky to be in the era that he was in, something I gues the likes of Djokko and Rafa and even Murray never had the luxury of, and just purely lookin at the numbers mislead people to think how good he really is.

Correction in my previous post. Rafa won three titles this year.

Ah Schiavone, you are absolutely right. These Fedtards refuse to understand the weak era concept and keep touting their idol as the greatest. That maybe ok as they are fans but they keep attacking Rafa calling him a cheat and accusing him of all kinds of unfair practices, claiming he is in decline, calling his injuries fake on one hand and expecting him to retire soon because of his injuries on the other hand ( they really should make up their minds, are Rafa's injuries real or not?) and that is not ok.
There is real ammo for fans of other players to train their guns on Roger ( not like the fake ammo conjured up by delusional Fed fans against Rafa)and that is exactly what you and me are doing. T

Rafa is certainly not in decline, maybe just came off from his summit, but still very much a formidable force. I can't say the same for Fed, as he has only won a 250 event this year. He did reach two other finals this year, at Dubai and at RG and lost to the top two guys, Nole and Rafa respectively. I do believe Fed can get the better of Nole on clay and on grass but Nole has Fed's number on the hard court, judging by the three straight losses Fed suffered against Nole. The coming hard court season will tell us more where these three guys are at, all three have something to prove in my opinion.

I don't see why is it such a big news that Fed said some nice words about Nole and praised his success....what was he supposed to say? All he did is tell the truth...Nole's confidence is his trade mark at the moment, and of course it helps him overcome any tough moment in the match...his game is at the high level, but then again, he had it before, except that this time around he will not drop his level due to confidence issues as he did before...his health is perfect, he is not injury prone and that would make him competitive for next couple of years at least...

as for the upcoming hard court season...Nole is of course the favorite...he will be playing his favorite surface and it will suit him perfectly...he will be the man to beat...

Rafa certainly is not in decline...and he is not that wounded and hurt...he recognizes Nole to be better player at the moment...Rafa will have more to say in the future...what he needs to do is to overcome this mental barrier he has when playing Nole, although I have noticed some of those mental lapses in his previous matches at Wimby, not to mention RG as well...but Rafa will be back...his game needs some improvement, no doubt about it, but not much though...he has got it all already...what he needs is to stay calm at crucial points...and I am sure he will work towards it...I just looked at some photos of Rafa having fun at the beach...he is really enjoying himself so that is what we, his fans, should do as well...

holdserve I read the first line of your post, I didn't bother reading the rest.
My point was that you were wrong when you said federer hadn't made any final in the last 6 slams.
I never said I agreed or disagreed with your post.

But ok, I'll read and your post and see if I have anything to say.

why has this article prompted you all to argue?? Federer never even stated what johan lindahl said he did. This "writer" (I use the term loosely) takes an amalgamation of quotes from months ago and fits them in to an incendiary or fake written piece. Out of context doesn't even begin to cut it.

No sense in arguing, let these fedtards wallow in their delusion that Fed at 30 is still a threat and the man to beat, while Rafa at 25 is already on the decline. Their fantasy will not affect the TRUTH one bit.

So according to phoenix every player peaks at around the same age and declines at around the same age??!!! Interesting but not true.
As for all the arguing around here you will find that the majority of the posts and those long ones are from nadal fans and not federer fans.

well Roger WAS greatest for almost 5 years and Nadal was the greatest for tow peroids the 2008 and 2010 so basicaly we are talking about not being able to be at the top for more than one year each time that must have an explanation!
About the Djoko the man is on fire he is absloutley great to watch amazing stuff he reminded me of Roger 2005,2006 amazing i hope he carry this form to the USO (i know he would) i thought that Murray would be the next one but Djoko proved me wrong and am so glad he did!
God bless you Djoko!when i thought there is no one to stop Nadal now he emerges

glad to see fed praising novak ... that's also important for tennis..

Hey dnalves, could you prove your statement that phoenix's statement is not true? You have twisted it to mean that every player peaks at the same time and declines at the same time. But it is clear from the context that phoenix is referring to probability of Fed at 30 being a top contender and Rafa at 25 being in decline.
While you would need a crystal ball to predict exactly when a player will reach his peak and when he will decline you can say that it is highly probable that he will peak at 24, have his best performance in the prime playing years between 21 and 29 and decline thereafter.
This statement is based on scientific studies and not delusions like the statements of Fed fans. I can give references. Can you? Give one. I will then give you several. I am waiting. Since you challenged, you have to give the first reference to a scientific study disproving phoenix's statement as he stated it, not as you rephrased it.

tennislover, djokovic has proved you wrong once. He will no doubt prove you wrong again!

dnalves, it is so typical of a Fed fan to not read a post fully before commenting by just reading something selectively!

I read the posts I've commented on. The one I didn't read entirely was the one where you wrote "dnalves, your point?". I'm just explaining this to you because you don't seem to be the smartest cookie in the jar. If I say that federer has made a slam final in the last 6 slams when you said he didn't it is pretty obvious that my point is that you were wrong. That's it.
It is quite incrdible how you take that my simple post and imply that I'm trying to refute what you wrote first, and that I'm a federer fan second.

And yes I am a Federer fan.

So where is your response to my challenge to you to produce scientific studies to prove that phoenix's statement as he made it, not as you rephrased it, is wrong?
Just because I missed Fed's one final it doesn't make me less smart.
One can always make corrections as long as it does not impact the argument which was that Rafa's performance since last June cannot support Sienna's contention that he is in decline ( he has won four slams!) and Federer's performance since last June does not support Sienna's contention that he is a top contender ( he has zero slams).
I am, after reading posts of people like you, convinced that I am a smarter cookie than you.

People please try to stay objective and try only using logic and actual facts when proving a point.
Federer is the only player who managed to beat the Djoker quit comprehensively in the last 7 months.
Nadal on the other hand was not able to beat Djoker resulting in 5 straith forward wins of Novak. Furthermore Nadal has been very lucky to avoid Novak or Federer in his half of the draw in the latest Slams. He always gets Murray who clealry is not yet ready to take over the tennis world. With Murray Nadal has an easier path to the final. Those are just facts and clear observations with no prejudice whatsoever. Viewing those facts one can only come to the conclusion Fed is a greater threat to Novak as Nada.

Oh yes I forgot.
I don't need scientific studies with regard to the obvious. ARE YOU FOR REAL? Grow up and watch a tennismatch for a change.
Try to look at the Federer Tsonga match and please look at the great play from both of them. You will certainly become a fan of the migthy man from la Suisse

Thats is so true dnalves. LOL scientic studies OMG can you believe this guy? IS HE SERIOUS!
Nadal is one dimensional. He wasso long the second best where he was able to master and study on how to beat Fed. He forgot that in order to become one of the greatest he should be able do win against other players also. Even in his best year he lost a lot of matches.
Fed's dad once elaborated on the fact his son had not won Garros, he tried to tell how difficult it actually is winning al those other slams. It is times like these where one can really be in awe of the accomplishments of Fed. Nobody will ever dominate Tennis for that amount of time like Federer. And it happend in one of the great eras of men tennis. Just look at all the old guy's who are still around. If you just take a look at how many guy's are still in top 50-100 it is amasing. That clearly shows the full depth of mens tennis in the Fed years. No cupcake draws up to the semis', but hard tough tennis from round 1.

Sienna is known to be weak in logic so his/her ridiculous post I will ignore. Imagine laughing at scientific studies? That just shows how delusional Sienna is. As for the bogus argument about Fed being the top contender because he was the only one who defeated Djokovic this season, that is so ridiculous that any Fedfann with an iota of brain matter will try not to associate himself with this reasoning.
But dnalves I am waiting for your reply to my challenge.
Or admit you were wrong. And I will give references to scientific studies so you can educate yourself.
You can see I am not making this offer to Sienna because that person will not understand anything.

nadal has been written off several times.. when he lost to soderling at RG, when he was beaten by murray at AO,when he withdrew from Wimb, when he lost to Ferrer at AO... but damn! he came back strong as ever proving every hopeless and cynical federer fan WRONG..

ok, FEDERER IS THE GREATEST PLAYER IN THE WHOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLEEEEEE UNIVERSE AND IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY.

nadal has been written off several times.. when he lost to soderling at RG, when he was beaten by murray at AO,when he withdrew from Wimb, when he lost to Ferrer at AO... but damn! he came back stronger every time, proving every hopeless and cynical federer fan WRONG..

ok, FEDERER IS THE GREATEST PLAYER IN THE WHOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLEEEEEE UNIVERSE AND IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY. but nothing has changed, you are still the old, bitter, condescending tennis fans who keep arguing and arguing over forums and diminish players who threaten that "greatest" player..

and who wouldnt mind being a one-dimensional if the "all-around greatest player" could not beat him on any surface lately.

finally, to think that nole is in nadal's head is true (for now). but what sets apart nadal and fed (other than the 6 GS) is that nadal reinvents himself; i am not quite sure about fed.

Holdserve. Iknow you have explained on this site that you are mentally challenged. I donot think you are, but you clearly have an autistic disorder.
Fed's win was comprehensively (is the word yes"?) so it could happen again. That is a fact and an objective conclusion. If I stated that Nadal could win against Djoker this year, That does not has to be a lie, but it is not objectively because it did not happen the past 5 times.

Furthermore you forgot about the draw Rafa always has in his favour. He alway avoids Djoker/Fed. Wether Fed was 1, 2 or 3 or wether Novak was 1 2or 3. That is a big advantage Rafa has had in the past. He was able to reach lot's of finals just because of that. When his luck runs out he meet Fed in semi at US Open and there he will have a difficyult time against Fed on the fast HC. That s a fact and objective. Fed will fair better on grass and fast HCagainst nadal then on clay.

So there you have it no science involved just good old plain logic. Try a braintrainer on the youre DS. You should ask one from youre parents for youre 15th birthday.

and who wouldnt mind being a one-dimensional if the "all-around greatest player" could not beat him on any surface lately. raghav, 7/7/11 10:19 PM

By lately you mean this year I guess? Kind of like how Rafa has played Nole :

1. Twice on clay 0-2

2. Twice on clay ( clayking right?) 0-4 in sets lol

3. Once on grass ;no luck again

Ok so Roger is 0-3 against Rafa this year. Fair enough but 0-1 on HC and 0-2 on clay. He did beat Rafa, Nole and Murray at WTF last November, not that long ago.
Let's see which tournament did Rafa beat Roger, Nole and Murray? Oh wait, can't think of it............

oh number! please do yourself a favor. i was talking about nadal and roger and here you are bringing up nole? you simply proved yourself as among those who use nole against rafa because you cannot rely on your roger to do himself a favor by beating nadal.

and now you bring that WTF from november? why not talk about this year? and to educate you, WTF draw does not work like the atp tournaments and the grandslams where the players are separated by the draw.. its a shame that you admit roger is 0-3 against rafa this year and try to dig into the archives of last year because that was the last impressive win of roger...tsk.tsk.tsk

Raghav
YOURE KILLING ME WITH BOREDOM! You sound just like holdserve (Boring) Get a sense of humour will you two or one? I think you guys are the same player in this field tsk tsk tsk. Their cannot be two posters who state such ridicolous comments on the internet. Please elaborate on the weakest era we are in at the moment!+


Is my english good enough?

Is it enough to say I am mentally challenged? You must prove it darling.
There is plenty of proof in your case, however. Your every post proves it.
Your sense of humor? My God talking about hairline is sense of humor. Spare me!
You ask is your english good enough. Sadly, nothing about you is good enough. You should take my advice and stop posting to avoid further embarrassment to yourself.

raghav,

I know how the draw works. Rafa couyld have played all three when Murray was out of the top 4, not that many years ago. You just emphasized another point that Roger has 5 TMC/WTF and Rafa still none. Although it's not a GS with best of 5, in many ways it's harder to win because there are no easy opponents, no cupcake draws like USO 2010 for Rafa. Everybody is top 8 so you're the best of the best on indoor HC when you win that.

Sienna, you have been insisting this era is weak. How does that help you? Will your giant brain explain how it helps your cause?
To make it easy for your giant brain, let us accept this as the weak era. What does that prove? Please enlighten, oh giant brain!

Rafa is not as well rounded a player as most people would like to think. It's true that he does have 10 GS. However, 6 of those have come from just RG. He has a mere 1 USO + AO, and only 2 Wimbledon championships. Now, think about who those 6 opponents were when he won RG? 4 of them against Fed.

Now think about this Fed haters. Had Roger won those 4 matches, he would have 5 RG crowns. Had he won, he would have a minimum of 4 titles from EACH of the 4 GSs. That is more impressive than winning at 1 for most of your career. What makes Fed great is not the fact he dominated just at Wimbledon, but his ability to cross over to the other courts as proven by his 4 AO, 5 USO, 6 WC, and 1 (+4 finals appearances) at RG.

holdserve, I feel very sorry for you. If only you could look past Rafa's bulging biceps and understand how great both players are in their own way.

numero with slight spelling change is an anagram of moron. That explains his latest post. His or hers. Don't know whether numero is a guy or a girl.

hey aegis why should you feel sorry for me? Besides, don't you know Federer has at least as much muscles as Rafa? Proof: both have same height and weight which is possible only if they have same muscle weight. The distribution of muscles is different. Fed has a disproportionately large right arm and his lower body is more muscular.
If I remember correctly, he has very muscular shoulders but as he doesn't generally take off his shirts, I am not sure.
Rafa's slam victories are more weighty because he won most of them against Fed. But Fed won against mostly second tier players proving weak era hypothesis.

If it was such a weak era, then how come Rafa only has 1 USO/AO? Must be because of injuries right? In case you havent noticed, they are playing in the same era at the moment. Rafa's slam cabinet is 2005-Present 2011 where he has accumulated 10 slams, whereas Roger has accumulated 12 in between that time span.

Please stop using that "weak era" hypothesis because it is only making Rafa look worse.

Hey cheryl, dnalves has made an allegation that Rafa is doping. Should you not warn him?

Hey aegis are you a moron like Sienna? Rafa has only one US Open because it is a strong era. If it had been a weak era like 2003-2007 or if he had been same age as Federer so he would have been in his prime in 2003-2007, he would have had 5 of each slam.

Hey RAGHAV and HOLDSERVE.

My friends I just want to say that don?t waste any more of our valuable time in arguing with an absolute bunch of uneducated, delusional, blinded, stubborn and moronic retards those fed fans are. I mean I am not saying all Fed fans are like that but for somereason the forum here on Tennistalks is like the retard-magnet of all fedtards. Some of the arguments they put on here are just pure childish and brainless.

Ppls have tried before to convince those tards and try to bring senses into their life, to help them to overcome their mental and visional disabilities to allow them to see again, to help them to understand not just what tennis as a sport is all about but more importantly how to approach life in a sensible manner, but all has failed my friends. They are just simply broken in the head beyond repair, and the more you try to help them to see things, the more blind they will get (Is it possible to make someone more blind when they already are??? Well, Fedtards have certainly achieved the unachievable LOL.)

All in all, these absolute toots don?t believe in science, it?s a shame that they exist amongst us in the 21st century, I really feel that if this is still medieval time, there might still be a place for them where they belong, but seems likethey exist 3000 yrs too late. What they believe in is voodooism, whatever the heck that is. They don?t believe what they are seeing in front of them, they believe what they imagine things to be in their head. They certainly do not understand the defintions of declining and peaking, they see one god up in the sky with initial RF and when they see Fed losing, doesn?t matter how many times and how bad, they turn to their holy no.16 and worship day and night until they are buried in dust.

It?s a sad sad world we live in, and its just not fair that some people are just that much more wiser and intelligent than others.

Full stop.

Schiavone you are right. I will only post at intervals on this thread to see whether dnalves has been warned or not for alleging doping. not respond to other posts.

Hey Schiavone,

It's sad that you can't realize that the name-calling you engage in is very childish and in fact indicative of a low IQ. Intelligent people would actually make valid points rather than resort to primary school name-calling. At least the Fedfans here don't lower themselves to your level.

For the record nadline, what dnalves posted does not indicate him accusing Rafa of anything. I'll explain.

I'm not talking about increasing the speed of his serve or his strokes, or his speed or stamina, that can be achieved with some substances.

He said it can be achieved with some substances. That only indicates that it is possible, hence the word 'can'. Any athlete 'can' do that. It does not mean that there is an accusation. Besides those substances could be anything : Tim Tebow is advertising the power of quercetin for the FRS product as an example.

numero, If cheryl accepts your reasoning you will not find you are better off. I am waiting to see her response before deciding on my course of action vis a vis dnalves' post.

I think dnalves has potential as a lawyer or a politician. His cleverly ambiguous, non-specific post could never hold TennisTalk liable in a court of law. There is no issue here.

Really, then how come when I said that improvement in Fed's form is considered natural but any improvement in Nadal's game is deemed to be due to dope then it was construed as me accusing Fed of doping though clearly it was not an accusation against Fed but an attack on the double standards of Fed fans.
Now the attack by dnalves is clearly an accusation of doping but you say it won't stand up in a court of law. Interesting.
Anyway, it is cheryl who has to decide. Not a court of law.
So I am waiting.

Its amazing how this supposed to be platform for all tennis fans (whether its Novak, Nadal, Federer fans) have become. A lot of argument whose the best and a lot of hatred among fanatics. Is it impossible to be a true follower of certain player without hating the others? I for one is a Novak fan since 2007, he lost quite a lot fron that year until 2010 and always in dilemna whenever it happens but I did not turn out to be a hater. I like tennis, full stop and I am enjoying the current state of this sport. Not just because Novak is winning and achieved his ambition & dreams at the same time but because of the exciting time we are into. I dont think that our favorite players plays because they want to be remember as great player, they play because they want the championship and they love their sport. Arguing here will be unproductive and will only create animosity & hatred among tennis fans. Novak, Rafa & Roger are more concern on the present.. Let the future worries on who will be given the title the greatest.. opps, I need to take out Novak in the argument of the Goat since he is not yet there to be included in the discussion (but who cares, Novak may not achieved what Rafa and Roger's were done in terms of the number of GS but I am happy for Novak now). Peace brothers. Tennis rules!!!

Tennistalk does not allow doping allegations. Thank you.

So numero dnalves' post has been deleted. He should be banned. Anyway, let's see when he trips up again.

Why there is no tribute / article about Nole who become No. 1 in Tennistalk. It is a huge acheivement considering the domination of Fedal for last 7 years...

Let me know if in case I missed..

RMadhu, there was one b4 Wimbledon, you'll find it on cheryl's blog, but time for another perhaps?

Thanks deuce. I will look in to her blog.
Yep, his huge Wimbledon achievement merits a special blog.

I am still waiting French Open part 2 :)

Fedals have huge fanbase, 90%... when one of them farts, there is blog about it ;) To be honest, even Rafa needed some time to be recognized as no 1. There were number of lapses in press that Fed is no.1. Simply he was too long there. And now, tennis it is not even imaginable without Fedal...

I don't think that masses are prepared for new no.1. Wimby hype passed, Fedal will be still first for most population, ATP ranking system is failing, GOAT is what is matter, GS count is what is all about, 2010 is the year that counts anyway - 2011 will be officially skipped.

It is hard for Novak to be 1st, right in front Fedal, with 0.01% of support they had in career breakthrough... He is mocked by celebration with his whole family, grandpas, aunts, uncles etc... But, as usual, most are missing point that he is making with that.

So let's make him even harder and at least make him feel not worthy, if that fails, lets bring on statistic, and if that fails... let give a science try and call Brainiacs... if that doesn't give relief, then let's pretend nothing happened :) it might go away...

numero thanks for your understanding of my post.
But I'll explain so that holdserve doesn't have a nervous breakdown.
What I meant was that a player can change his game by for example improving his volleys or changing pace using slice. One can hit harder but that can only be achieved by getting stronger or more muscular. Everyone know nadal is the most muscular player on the ATP right now. And everyone knows that players with a similar build like tsonga or monfils tend to get injured more often and more severely than nadal.

Nadal's build is not the "perfect" or "typical" build for tennis. Compare federer's, djokovic's and murray's build with nadal's.
As for the claim holdserve makes about the weight of federer being the same as nadal's although the ATP website has 85Kg for both, tennistalk has 85Kg for nadal and 80Kg for federer, which must be the truth because with all that muscles nadal is certainly heavier than federer.

I see that the nadal fans are very agressive and disrespectful towards any post that slightly contradicts them or mentions nadal in a not pleasing way. This is just tennis people, we can change arguments is a civilized manner. Although you nadal fans tend to push my patience to the limit.

I love how all reports and articles about Nole have a Fedal war going on in the comments section, while all the Nole fans seem to be hungover :D

One can be civilized when talking to sane people, but not towards delusional fedtards!

Ah, the big bang that started with the first comment. No one really cares about the article.
Oh and holdserve, fat is bulkier than muscle for the same weight. Same weight does not mean they have the same body composition and muscle to fat ratio. Muscle tissues are compact and hence Rafa can build 'em big and still weigh the same as a clearly 'thinner' Federer.

If only I could win slams with the ease that I can type ' easy era'.

Raonic has had hip surgery and will be out for 6 weeks.

According to the Davis Cup website:

"Chances of a win on Friday for the Swedes increased only very slightly with the withdrawal of world No. 1 Novak Djokovic from the second singles rubber. Due to face No. 355 Eleskovic, Djokovic had to pull out 40 minutes before the start of the tie because of a problem with his left knee and is replaced by Janko Tipsarevic."

:( Hope he's alright? He hasn't played a single match this year without that bandage around his knee.

Also, whats the difference between an 'ace' and a service winner? Seems like the same thing to me..

Hey xrf, you are proving the exact opposite of what you intend.
If two chaps have same weight and height, they have to have nearly same amount of muscles.
To make it simpler for lamebrains to understand let us assume we have only fat and muscle and muscle weighs twice as much for the same volume. For simplicity let us assume Fed and Nadal are equally thin i.e. same volume, same weight. So same density. So proportion of fat and muscle have to be same.
If Fed is thinner i.e. less volume for same weight, then his density is more which can be explained only by higher proportion of denser material i.e. muscle i.e. a thin looking chap with same height and weight has MORE muscles. Get it thickhead?

mridula, an ace is when the opponent cannot even get his racket to touch the ball. A service winner is when the racket touches the ball but it goes out or into the net. In either case the returner loses the point but in the second case he could at least touch the ball.

I see Djokovic didn't want to risk losing to Eleskovic. Lol

^^ of course not, after all it would add insult to injury where Rafa is concerned; given that he's been beaten five straight times and is in a royal fix as to how he can beat Nole.

thanks holdserve. but that goes against the whole concept of a 'winner' doesnt it, its more like a 'forced error' in a way..

^^ well, thats like saying why is it 15,30,40 instead of 15,30,45 or 10,20,30? :)

dnalves, you are really shameless. Your pathetic attempt to explain yourself only makes it worse.
As for your claim that stats on tennistalk is more reliable than on ATP, please note that ATP is the official site for all stats relating to ATP and that includes ATP players.
You cannot produce wishful thinking to question credibility of the official site. You have to provide solid proof.
Till you produce such evidence and make ATP change their stats relating to weight of Fed, my contention that based on official stats Fed has equal if not more muscles than Nadal stands.
This should silence the moronic and delusional Fed fans who have been talking nonsense about bulky Nadal and making false allegations like you based on your delusions and even floating a moronic site called tennis has a steroid problem.
What these morons allege for Rafa will hold , if true, even more for Fed.
Besides steroids are not the only PEDs.
There is blood doping common amongst cyclists to build endurance and it has been proved that for any sport lasting more than 45 seconds increasing stamina is critical. Therefore endurance is critical for tennis and probably more critical than strength.
Blood doping does not result in bulk. One of the acknowledged offenders viz Floyd Landis isn't bulky. His build in fact is like Federer's.
Then we have HGH supposed to be miraculous and in the news recently because of Wayne Odesnik. ATP has no tests for it although it is on their list of banned substances.
What is even more scary is gene-modification which is also banned but ATP has no test for it. Reports were there in the media that gene doping is a reality.
Scientists claim to have developed tests to detect gene doping of at least one sort i.e. modifying genes to increase oxygen carrying capacity of blood (i.e. the body with modified genes becomes a blood doping machine). They claim the tests can detect gene doping even after 56 days but so far these tests haven't been introduced by ATP although this research is funded by WADA.
So whether anyone is doping or not cannot be determined by looking at them or by wishful thinking. You need tests.
Since none of you personally know Nadal or Federer, you have no way of knowing whether either of them is more moral than the other.
Till ATP tests prove either or both to be cheaters, it would therefore be wise on the part of morons like numero and dsalves to shut up.
Remember whatever you say about Nadal is equally if not more applicable to Federer.

atg, I don't think you are right in saying that Nole does not get the respect for being No1 or that it is somehow difficult for him to be No1 at the moment. It is just the opposite...did anyone here ever question whether he deserves to be No1? No, because we are all in agreement that he is the best tennis player right now who fully deserves to be No1. He is respected and praised for his results from both camps.

But, the truth is, what we are seeing in these blogs is desperate Fed fans pretending to cheer for Nole just because he overtook Rafa as No1. But they cannot fool me that they are all of the sudden crazy about Nole as I know how they and their hero Fed treated Nole before. Well, didn?t Fed say right before Wimby that Nole was always good but ?nothing special? or something like that...So, what I am trying to say is that these Fedtards have finally found the reason to post here: Nole beating Rafa, something their ?GOAT? is not able to do on any surface any more...it is just one big fat lie that Fed fans support Nole. They never do that. It is just that they can no longer rely on their mighty Fed to beat Rafa and they will support just about anyone if he is able to beat Rafa to keep Fed's records safe...I feel sorry for Fed fans who are only focused on Fed's 16 GSs and are SO AFRAID of Rafa being able to surpass Fed...they live in misery and will cheer for Delpo, Soderling or anybody who was able to beat Rafa...but Nole and his fans are smarter than that...that is why Nole's fans do not get involved in these endless discussions...why should they? They are happy and safe, something Fed fans can not afford as they are living in fear...

Incidentally anti-doping program is administered by the ITF and is applicable to all players competing at tournaments sanctioned by the ATP, WTA and ITF tour.
For more details go to the ITF site.

samprallica, no its not lol, since they have a definition of a 'winner' i.e. a shot that the opponent cant get to, they have the 'ace'. 'service winner' is more like 'forced error' to me..

incidentally, WHY is it 15,30,40 instead of 10,20,30? ;)

mriidula, an ace is untouchable but a service winner is still a winner as that serve was really unreturnable. I guess these terms like "love" in tennis, are all traditional terms but I don't really find the "service winner" term counter intuitive. It seems ok to me but I guess that maybe because I am so used to that term.

mriidula, I beleive that they tried to relate a game to the number of seconds to a minute and each quarter of a minute equals one point, so it should be 15, 30 45 (60 - game) but because 45 is odd in the sequence, they changed it to 40. I heard that once on the radio.

A plausible explanation from the internet:
The origins of the 15, 30, and 40 scores are believed to be medieval French. It is possible that a clock face was used on court, with a quarter move of the hand to indicate a score of 15, 30, and 45. When the hand moved to 60, the game was over. However, it was realized that the game could then be won by luck, so the idea of "deuce" was introduced. To make the score stay within the "60" ticks on the clock face, the 45 was changed to 40. Therefore, if both players have 40, the first player to score receives ten and that moves the clock to 50. If the player scores a second time before the opponent is able to score, they are awarded another ten and the clock moves to 60. The 60 signifies the end of the game. However, if a player fails to score twice in a row, then the clock would move back to 40 to establish another "deuce".

Another theory is that the scoring nomenclature came from the French game jeu de paume (a precursor to tennis that substituted the racquet for a hand). Jeu de paume was very popular before the French revolution, with more than 1,000 courts in Paris alone. The traditional court was 90 ft in total with 45 ft on each side. When the server scored, he moved forward 15 ft. If he scored again, he would move another 15 ft. If he scored a third time, he could only move 10 ft closer.

The origin of the use of "love" for zero is also disputed; it is possible that it derives from the French word for the egg (l'?uf) because an egg looks like the number zero. "Love" is also said to derive from "l'heure" or "the hour" (more likely to be translated as "the time") in French. Another possibility of the origin comes from the Dutch expression "iets voor lof doen", which means to do something for praise, implying no other reward (so monetary gain would be zero). The word 'lof' has changed over time to 'love'.

Here is another explanation from Wiki:

The running score in each game is described in a manner peculiar to tennis. Scores of zero to three points are described as "love" (or "zero"), "fifteen", "thirty", and "forty", respectively. The origins of the fifteen, thirty, and forty scores are believed to be medieval French. It is possible that a clock face was used on court, with a quarter move of the hand to indicate a score of fifteen, thirty, and forty-five. When the hand moved to sixty, the game was over. Another explanation is that the scoring system was copied from the game sphairistike, which was played by British officers in India during the 19th century. That game's scoring system was based on the different gun calibres of the British naval ships. When firing a salute, the ships first fired their 15-pound guns on the main deck, followed by the 30-pound guns of the middle deck, and finally by the 40-pound lower gun deck.[citation needed]

The origin of the use of "love" for zero is also disputed; it is possible that it derives from the French word for an egg (l'oeuf) because an egg looks like the number zero. "Love" is also said to derive from "l'heure" or "the hour" in French. Another possibility of the origin comes from the Dutch "iets voor lof doen," which means to do something for nothing.

@ mriidula, what I'm saying is that these concepts are alike in that they don't immediately make any sense :)

The term "love" derived from the French "l'oeuff" which means "the egg". That's all I know about tennis scoring, but holdserves explanation seems plausible enough.

One more plausible explanation:
A game consists of a sequence of points played with the same player serving, and is won by the first player to have won at least four points and at least two points more than their opponent. The half of the court used for service alternates between sides, beginning with the right-hand half, known as the deuce court, and continuing with the left-hand side, known as the advantage court.

As simple as this scoring appears, the running score of each game is described in a manner peculiar to tennis: scores of zero to three points are described as "love" (or "zero"), "fifteen," "thirty," and "forty," respectively. The origins of the fifteen, thirty, forty scores are somewhat unclear - one common explanation is that the scoring system was copied from the game sphairistike, which was played by British officers in India during the 19th century. That game's scoring system was based on the different gun calibres of the British naval ships. When firing a salute, the ships first fired their 15-pound guns on the main deck, followed by the 30-pound guns of the middle deck, and finally by the 40-pound lower gun deck.

The second explanation is also scoured from the internet.

I knew about 'love' coming from the egg as well, but thats all. so thanks guys, that was definitely informative. its quite interesting really, to read different theories about how terms that are so common to us now came into existence in the first place.

Can anyone tell me why there is a picture of Roger and Stan on a blog about Roger praising Djokovic?

any idiot can google. Holdserve we are so impressed.

But anyway. Most likely as is seen on a card dated 1615 next to the tennisballs where coins. to indicate that they played for money. The currency in those days was 60 cents hence 15, 30, 45 60...game. 5 has been deleted.
pfff you with youre scientific studies.

Hey Sienna your admission that you are an idiot so you can also google is very admirable and of course so true. But your explanation sounds like gibberish. Perhaps you could not comprehend and you have posted some garbled version?
I am not surprised that a delusional says pfff to scientific studies.
Did I say earlier I am using you as a subject for my research on delusionals?
I promise to share 1% of the royalty should my book get published with you and numero and dnalves.

Holdserve please. You used almost 1500 words to describe the origins of the counting intennis. Imerely used 40 -50words and the explanation I give was far more realistic and more to the point then you gave. Please try to stay objective if you can.

numero and dnalves have you read my post on doping?
HGH also does not lead to bulking. While it is useful for all athletes, it is especially favored by aging athletes i.e. those close to 30. ATP has no tests for it.
So in future do not try to cast silly allegations against Rafa because your idol is equally vulnerable to the allegations.

Pleas can Holdserve remark about 30 year old player be removed?
That actually is the second time he accused Federer (indirectly) It is time the moderators banned this poster from this site.

But Sienna, your explanation is gibberish. Maybe you need to use more words to explain? Right now it makes no sense.
Which currency had 60 cents? When is this "those days"?
Why was the 5 deleted? How was deuce accounted for?

Dear Sienna, my objection is to obnoxious people making doping allegations against players.
But you seem to have no problems when Rafa is maligned.
I did not find you protesting when dnalves made a blatant open and not indirect allegation against Rafa. numero even defended him. You remained silent.
I just pointed out that if we get into the doping allegation game, we cannot leave out anyone, especially not your idol.
So shut up and don't ever malign Rafa again.
I am tired of it and I have shown you the case which can be built against your idol if I wished to join you in your mean spirited game.

You dont understand.
Chrispijn van de Passe made
There is an old grvaure (is that a good english word?) from Chrispijn van de Passe dated back 1615. On the gravure there is a tennis lawn with tennisballs and coins. The coins are a currency used in theose day. It was not klike today with 100 cent but 60. The coins are a strong indication tennis was played for money! And the 60 goes like 15 -30 -45 - 60 My goody doodness I know it is not my language but there are Nadal freaks on this site who would understand it.
5 has been (by timn and when years go by the 5 was falling off of the 45 ...hence 40 and of course game.

Deuce 40-40 is quarante - deux, but it could also be "deux le jeux" ... two to play. Both of course from French.
Love has also found his origins in french and the zero looks like án egg a L'oeuf... As you guys don't speak any other language that became easily love.......

Sienna, stop your gibberish. Which currency is that and when was it? Why should 5 fall off from 45 and not from 15?

Holdserve
Yes, my bad. That proves the oppposite. But then again the body composition does vary and same height weight does not mean same amount of muscle( same volume, along with it, does).
Maybe Nadal just looks bulkier. Maybe his body is extremly low on fat, which even brings out the contours and adds to the effect. But he certainly seems to have bulkier arms, mid-section and legs than Fed. Fed seems to have broader shoulders.
And if you're looking for hostility in everything 'against' what you have to say, then I can't help it. I was merely pointing it out, no need for the name calling. You're a righteous and humble Nadal fan after all, aren't you.

Holdserve you nitwit. You really are you explained thatit is actually a clock. 15 30 45 60 . How do you think those 5 minutes were put of ! Don't you ever read books or study actually history? Things happen over a period of time because people feel that it makes theire life easier...... Really you are such a loser. Within 5 minutes I gave you the best possible explanation of the origine of tennis counting Please feel free to dor research about the gravure of Chrispijn van de Passe ...... Nitwit.

I am tired of Fed fans accusing Rafa of cheating.
If they think there is doping in tennis why do they single out Rafa?
I have pointed out that doping is possible without bulking up so a case could be made for doping against Federer, Djokovic, Roddick, Fish, Tomic... i.e. anyone, no matter how they look, even if they look frail.
Secondly taking more time between points is not cheating. A violation of a rule is not cheating otherwise you can be considered a cheat when you run a traffic light or arrive five minutes late at your office. Cheating normally implies abusing trust, trickery, fraud.
Thirdly, imposing the time limit 20 secs ( for gs) or 25 secs ( for ATP) is the responsibility of the umpire and left to his discretion.
So, it is none of your business.
Fourthly MTOs are within the rules and cannot be called cheating or even a violation of a rule.
You have no business to decide whether a MTO is legitimate or not. It is the umpire's job.

Sienna there are 60 mins in an hour, 60 secs in a min, so 60 makes sense.
But I don't know any currency which has 60 cents. So since you provided the explanation, it is your responsibility to show that it is not gibberish. Why should I do research to support your bogus explanations? Sheer waste of time.
As for who is a nitwit, I am sure very few people in this forum have any doubts about that.
You in your id as Sienna or Torres9 have called me moron, nitwit, bottom 1 % etc but please understand that just by calling me names, you do not prove anything. But what can I expect from somebody who scoffs at scientific studies?
No doubt you feel threatened by my intellect/logic and hence you indulge in name calling.

xrf, if Nadal and Fed are same height and weight but Nadal is bulkier then it is impossible for Nadal to have more muscles than Fed.
Saying he is more bulky is the same as saying Federer is thinner. In both cases, as they have same height, it means Nadal has more volume. Given they have same weight, it means Nadal has less density which can happen only if he has less of the denser matter i.e. muscles.
If Fed looks thinner but has more muscles, it only means his muscle distribution is different from Nadal's and is not visible on the exposed parts.
Maybe shoulder, back, abdomen, upper legs?

That's what is confusing and prompted the error in the first place. Nadal seems to have more muscle and volume; Arms, abdomen, legs, back, hips, everywhere! But in that case he would certainly have more weight. Maybe the bone structure, bone density etc? I don't know how much of an effect that might have.
Bah, maybe it's all just an illusion.

Since all the top athletes have dense bones and these two guys have the same height, I doubt that bone density or structure could account for the difference.
I think the illusion is due to different muscle distribution.

Holdserve you really are dumb.

When the picture (engraved) is dated from 1615 and the scoring on the card was already set 40. So obviously scoring dated from longer back ..like medieval time 14 15 century. In europe the currency was not as documented as today. You certainly have no feeling for european history and how people used currency in those days. Also I think it is very plausible that a different value like 60. Besides it is all on the internet but you did not come up with the most plausible explanation. They did not play the timebut they played for money. The played for a price. Don't be so rigid in youre thinking. You are like that when you are faced with something you cannot grasp. It is the same when you try to defent youre biased views on tennis and on Nada or Federer. I'm sure it is gonna be youre downfall in many things you might encounter in your life.

I will help you guy's out with the weight problem. Holdserve is already thinking about havy bones or loss of hair? Has it never occured that the weigth shown on ATP site is a little outdated. They got their meassurements a few years ago and back then they were the same weight. The last few years we have seen a heavier Nadal because of more muscles and Fed actually toned down his bodyweight.

The match between Fed and Djocv was the most amazing to watch! The Nadal Djocv match was crash and bang but I do like Nadal. It is irritating to see Djocv ask the crowd for more appaluse. Oh well he is young. Colorado USA

Hey Cheryl, I request you to ban Sienna. She has been making really ridiculous posts.
And what is really annoying is that she has been attacking me calling me nitwit, dumb, idiot, rigid etc.
She also seems to be obsessed with Rafa's receding hairline. I have been on these forums long enough to know that when a Fed fan talks of Rafa's muscles or his loss of hair, he is accusing the Spaniard of doping. Sienna talks obsessively about Rafa's hair and pretends it is humor and is shocked I find nothing funny in his receding hairline!
Please do something about this annoying poster who seems to lack the most basic comprehension skills and operates on pure delusions.
Thank you.

Sienna's posts are a good time pass for everyone in this forum. Way to go Sienna!!

I'd like everyone's thoughts on this question:

What would happen if holdserve and Sienna were locked up in the same room? :P

What would happen if holdserve and Sienna were locked up in the same room? :P
samprallica, 7/9/11 8:26 AM

Murder.

What would happen if holdserve and Sienna were locked up in the same room? :P

samprallica , 7/9/11 8:26 AM


holdserve will knock some sense into Sienna.

Better believe I won't back down! Anyway to me holdserve is a lonely young boy. With hardly any friends and little to no excersice/or sports done in his life. The only excersice he is doing in his 1 room appartment you can imagine. I hope he won;t become a loose canon. A few months ago we had in the Netherland such a grazy angry young manboy shooting the hell out of people, a few dozen killed and wounded. I hope holdsevre doesn't snap like that guy.

We all know holdserve has several posts about accusing Federer seen deleted.
So if anybody must be banned.
Anyway back to tennis.
Fed and <Murray the only 2 guy's of the top 4 playing DC and not even at the biggest stage. Murray winning 0 0 0 triple baggel? There should be somekind of award for that and for the loser an encouraging price.

Holdserve actually made a joke! He didnot know about it but anywayz...

.......pretends it is humor and is shocked I find nothing funny in his receding hairline!

That is just a great punchline in a sitcom. He doesn't even know how funny he is. You have so much to offer to the world. Please holdserve get your act together and try to make it work.

What would happen if holdserve and Sienna were locked up in the same room? :P
- samprallica , 7/9/11 8:26 AM


If Sienna turns out to be the voluptous blond that I imagined her to be, holdserve would have a change of heart and we'll be having a reconciliation. :-)

^^ HAHAHAHAHAAH.

phoenix, ROFL ...even perchance a marriage proposal..;)

WHAT ARE YOU GUY'S TRYING TO GET ME IN TO?

I suppose holdserve hasn't posted for a while...maybe he thought it was time to close the curtains in his room after Phoenix's remark.
holdserve! Try to take on a sport for tension release. Try actually hitting a tennisball. Just join a club you will find out that there will be people wanting to play with you. I suppose you don't speak to much the first couple of weeks, but you should be okay by then.

ha ha, Sienna it might be worth a shot :P You yourself said he was funny - imagine being around a person who makes you laugh all the time, can only be good for you :D

Yes, Sienna that is not a bad option. Would suggest you to go for it.

Well, I am glad all of you had a good laugh but no way am I going to allow myself to be locked up in a room with Sienna.
Phoenix you must have imagined Sienna to be a voluptuous blond because of the dumb posts she makes and we are so used to that stereotyped association of "dumb" with "blonde".
I am in a different time zone, same as NNY, so, Sienna, I did not post because I was sleeping.

holdserve, looks like Sienna was missing you already.

Aargh, being missed by Sienna is a fate worse than death.
What did I do to deserve this?

I think we've cracked it guys - a tennis and dating site. What a winner!

holdserve..which nationality are u? u stay in USA-East coast?

Sienna said shes from Netherlands..so maybe Dutch ..

In India, in our film industry Bollywood..the concept of a guy and girl who hate each other and then translate that hate into a torrid romance is a blockbuster in many movies..I can almost visualise holdserve playing a bollywood hero and Sienna a bollywood heroine (Indians- will Aamir and Madhuri Dixit from Dil be right reference or Shahid-Kareena from Jab we met :-)?)

sanju, I am in USA West coast which I think is 121/2 hours behind India in Summer and 131/2 hours behind in Winter. In any case it is 3 hours behind the East coast of USA.
I hate to disappoint all of you but there's going to be no date, no romance, no Bollywood style hate-transformed-into love story.
I did not want to reveal my gender but in the light of your expectations, I have to clarify that I am female.
If Sienna was indeed missing me under the impression that I am a boy, I hope this admission will effectively stop her.

o.O O.o

The ladies on this site aren't ones to back down. I'm still struggling with holdserve being a female.

I'm in shock. And I'm gonna ignore the fact that holdserve is a female person!I never thought that a woman would posses so much hatred. But it clearly shows her lack of logical thinking.

Ooh my god a woman demanding scientifical proof in order to make an argument on a tennis site! LMAO

Oh. And I thought both of you were guys. :|

Sienna, my dear. as "dumb" is inextricably associated with "blonde", "logic" I suppose is considered "male".
But these days females are trained in math and science and even earlier we had Marie Curie.
True, there aren't that many female geniuses in Math or Science but no one is certain whether it is because of genetic differences or social conditioning.
Larry Summers, I think, claimed women were inferior in Science and though he had to resign his post as Harvard's President, his career was not affected. He later joined the Obama administration and has now returned to Harvard.
The moral: You can get away with insults to women.

Oh noo..instead of a romance, we get a catfight..meowwwwwwwwwwwww

Well thats interesting enuff too..haha

Nag nag nag nag nag... We should have known.

Aargh, being missed by Sienna is a fate worse than death.
What did I do to deserve this?

holdserve , 7/9/11 5:42 PM


I think what you deserve is a medal.

I think what you deserve is a medal.

nadline

For attempting to make sense of Sienna's nonsense?
Sienna is the most effective weapon designed by the enemy camp to drive Rafa fans crazy by forcing them to face a barrage of nonsense. No weapon will work against Sienna as she is immune to logic, reason or facts. She is unstoppable.

What a twist! Now I have to act fast to erase this old picture of holdserve in my mind...:-(

holdserve, yes you deserve a medal for your peseverance in trying to make head or tail of what Sienna is on about, I gave up.

I always thought you were both girls.

On a lighter note 2 ladies claw each others eyes out when they fighting for the same man

Here Sienna is gung go about Roger and holdserve about Rafa..No common interest too

Ladies: Why not be happy about your idol without putting the others dol down? World is very big to accomodate 2 tennis superstars and their fans :-)

World peace! NOW this site's got it all.

sanju, it is the Fed fans who are constantly provoking us by putting down Rafa or making unfair allegations.
I like all the top players but I love Rafa and AndyM.
I think Roger is too smug and ungracious but as a tennis star he is among the greatest.
I always thought Djokovic was extremely talented and was surprised when he seemed content not to challenge the duopoly of Roger-Rafa.
I am a little unhappy now with him as a person because of how his team celebrated the wins over Rafa. But I am not unhappy that he is no. 1. He deserves it.
Now I am praying real hard that Andy too gets some slams. He is 24.
Time and tide wait for no man etc.
Also I want Rafa to beat Djokovic soon as I do not like a one-sided rivalry.
Sometimes this guy, sometimes that guy. That's how it should be.
Can't make up my mind who I want to win USO, Rafa or AndyM ?
Want them to be on opposite sides of the draw.

Id want Rafa to win USO 2011 nd maybe 3 of the next 8 slams in 2012,2013..

Rest of the 5 slams can be taken by other people like Djoko, Andy M, Delpo, Fed

Assuming AndyM also rises, I think each of them ( Rafa, Djoko and AndyM) could get at least two each by 2013 end. Others like Delpo, Fed may get the rest (out of USO 2011 plus 8).
If AndyM does not rise, unlikely but not impossible, Rafa and Djoko will share almost equally, around 3 each, with others getting the rest.
If Rafa were younger, I would have said he would dominate but now I think it will be a triopoly.

Id like Rafa to tie Pete's tally of 14 if not get to Feds 16..It wont be easy to reach Petes tally of 14 too with the depth in todays field..but nothings impossible..

Fingers crossed

I just want Rafa to win everything, even playstation or the rubix cube.

Ha ha, nadline, I won't be unhappy if Rafa wins everything but I think it is improbable in today's scenario. He doesn't have the luxury of a weak era like Federer had.

I think the winner in the next Grand Slams will depend on the draw. If nadal gets lucky and faces murray and djokovic federer, as usual, then nadal may win because federer and djokovic will tire each other out in the semis (an example is US 2010, just so holdserve doesn't ask for evidence :P).
If nadal gets federer and djokovic murray then I think it will be either djokovic or federer the winner.
In the FO I think nadal has an advantage whatever the draw is.

In my opinion nadal may win a couple more FO but that's it.

holdserve says that federer fans make unfair allegations and then syas that federer had a weak era!!! OMG, as Mcenroe said "you cannot be serious!!".

Even Murray says he is unfortunate to be playing in the strongest era there's ever been and he should know. Fedfans just don't want to admit that Roger flourished in a weak era even though it's plain for all to see.

dnalves, I won't ask for evidence for delusional statements like yours that Nadal won in USO 2010 after Djokovic and Federer had tired each other out. You cannot provide evidence for delusions.
Weak era is however a fact. There are several ways of verifying it. Were the same two or three players in the age group 22 to 29 occupying slots one to three most of the time between 2003 and 2007? Did Fed meet the same player in at least two finals out of the four slams in most of the years and probably in most of the Masters? what was the ranking points difference between top2 or top 3 or top 4 and rest of the field?
Did the top 2 or 3 players monopolize most of the points?
Today you can see it is a strong era with the top 4 sharing most of the points among themselves. The top 4 have about 41000 points among them. An unprecedented domination.
So dominant are the top 4 hogging most of the ranking points that ranks 5 to 10 total barely 18000. Ranks 5 to 22 or 23 total about 41000.
Mind you because of large numbers, the standard of the Field ( comprizing hundreds of players) doesn't change too much from year to year so the average top 10 in Roger's era would still be average top 10 today. So how the points are hogged by top 2 or top 3 or top 4 indicates domination by them over the Field whose standard can be deemed to be constant because of the large numbers of competitors.
Strong era refers to simultaneous existence of at least two players both between 22 and 29 who can consistently beat the rest of the field so that they are the ones to be generally found in finals if duopoly or in semifinals if more than two.

A rule of thumb test: did there exist at least two players in their prime i.e. aged between 22 and 29 between 2003 and 2007 who each had at least 3 gs titles?
Apply this test to any era, don't forget the age limits and you will have your answer.
I am serious, my friend, very serious.
Not delusional like you or Sienna or Fed fans in general.

In HER stupid but own funny way, holdserve actually gave rise to the undisputed fact that the FEDEX era was indeed the strongest.
Please try to reread her posts carefully.. IF YOU DO BE CAREFULL DO NOT FALL A SLEEP!

It has been proven and acknowledged that the fed era was stronger then this era. (who;s era Nadal or Djoker?) (My goodnes wich GREAT let take the #1 position in prime only a loser!!)

Anywayz there is proof of the high percentage off old player in this era! That is a unbiased and logical explanation of the greater domination of FEDERER. In Federers prime there weres significately less older players like now and that is just an good proof of the more dominant and better players in the Federa. The players who grew up with Fed were just so good that they are still around in top 10 50 100.

And please I know my english is not so good as the most people on this site, but surely everybody understands what I/m saying and wille find that it is true.

I'm sorry I slipped up with a or an and with other stuff. bit actually I find my english is getting better and better. How do you guys and gals rate it for so far? PLease feel also free to give a lite feedback because I want to get better at it.

It's amusing how holdserve thinks she is a tennis expert and always writes thinking someone will even take her posts seriously. You think you know a lot about tennis, so good for you, or maybe not so good...
You write as if you know it all.
If you could let your nadal fanatism behind maybe your posts would be more reasonable but you just can't avoid writing all sorts of stupidity always thinking you hold the truth.

P.S.: I like coming here to read some posts and have a laugh at the imagination of some posters and the delusion that some of the nadal fans live in. Keep them coming. I like to have a good laugh.

Sienna, I produce below your claim
Anywayz there is proof of the high percentage off old player in this era! That is a unbiased and logical explanation of the greater domination of FEDERER. In Federers prime there weres significately less older players like now and that is just an good proof of the more dominant and better players in the Federa. The players who grew up with Fed were just so good that they are still around in top 10 50 100.

Please produce the proof that
(i)in Federer's prime there were significantly less older players
(ii) Explain how that proves that there were more dominant and better players in the Federar era
(iii) who are the players who grew up with Federer who are still in top 10, 50 and 100. Please give their names with date of birth.
(iv) the number of people in this age group in each of the years from 2003 till 2010 to enable us to see that today this age group is disproportionately larger in representation top 10, 50 and 100.
If you have simply been making wild statements please shut up.
If your statements are based on data, please produce data.
I am sure you will bluster and talk some nonsense and not produce any data.
Or talk some utter rubbish like you did claiming there must have been a european currency with units of 60 cents. You did not give name of that currency but insisted it must be there!

dnalves, clearly you had no answer to my posts so you have simply disputed that I am a tennis expert without disproving anything I said.
I challenge you to give the specifics .
Anyone can say they don't agree but they have to back it with data.
Provide the data.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/761121-roger-federers-generation-is -better-than-todays-tennis-players-an-analysis

This is so great!The date of this article is surely after my statements about The federa being stronger than this era!!! WOW look at the article the writer took my idea and made it into a scientific study. LOL
This is great I proclaim a statement weeks ago and some american college writer takes it and builds on it.

Keep 'trolling' the internet for articles that suit your cause. You should be able to find more!! Have fun!

Jean you are missing the punchline joke...
I now have my scientific studie in order to proof my case which holdserve required or demanded a few days ago.... LOL

I have better things to do in life than search for articles that go against holdserve's delusional ideas. Believe me there are lots of them. But I gain nothing in posting them because of that thick head of yours. I could also write gigantic posts explaining why many things you say make no sense but I'm not that altruistic, so continue living in your imaginary world.

Siena maybe tennistalk should create a scientific comission formed by tennis experts. That way all articles and information would have to be approved by the comission so it became postable.
That way maybe, and just maybe, holdserve would be satisfied. LOL. :)

Yes and holdserve should be president of that commision or atleast a senior member! We could from now on refer to her as the president of that commision. We will have to come up with a great catching name for the commision.Everybody can enter a name and the best one will be picked and used to describe holdserve.

Well that article sure is funny. Anyway.
I think Nadal has had a good enough chance to dominate as well. Other than a Federer who he finally started beating on all surfaces, he really had no competition either, other than a tantrum-y Djokovic who has only now risen. Murray might forever be just a good best-of-three player, he has certainly not shown enough mental composure to win a slam yet. Del Potro would have been my favourite pick but he might not even be able to regain what he had before the injuries, let alone improve upon it.
Everyone is such a phenomenal athlete these days. It's now the norm it seems. It's no longer 'just a few swings of the racquet' tennis. But beyond that I don't see any imagination, creativity and mental fortitude. Guys like Berdych, Soderling will probably forever be second tier players. And yet they have made the finals of 3 slams. And if Murray does not manage to win a slam either, 10 years later he'll be just another Henman.
Federer has handled the present generation well, uptil now. Sure we can't have a prime to prime matchup , but I think he has done extremely well even past his prime.
Nadal had the game at 17 to beat Federer and everyone else on clay. Maybe there have been no clay courters good enough this decade, with the trophy falling in different hands since Kuerten. Who knows. For all we know, Federer could have done a Sampras, never making it to the final. Nadal's FO record would certainly not have looked that pretty.
Post wimbledon 2008, Nadal could have enjoyed his easy era time, and prevented Federer from even equalling Sampras' record. And he did, but only for the year 2010.
And now there is Djokovic. If he really has Nadal's number and it plays out like Rafa-fed rivalry, all he now has to worry about is possible resistance from Murray, Del Potro. And of course a 30 year old Fed. In the hindsight, 2 Years later, maybe this will be look like a weak era too.
Lucky to get to 16 slams? Alright if that's how you want to look at it.
But I just wish Federer was born in the same year as Nole/rafa/murray, for then even if he did not have the stack of 16 slams, there wouldn't be people belittling his wins atleast.

People writing for Bleacher Report are not professional writers. They are just fans like us and some therefore are just as moronic as Sienna and some are as smart as luckystar.
Sienna, how does the article prove that Federer did not play in a weak era?
Michael Cansenti, the author, is just as much a moron as you.
I wanted you guys or girls to produce data instead of an article written by a moron like you. Michael Casenti hasn't done any research and is a Fedtard like Sienna or dnalves.
He is a Fed fan and a businessman from San Francisco who writes moronic articles praising Federer and putting down Nadal.
The only criterion for the fans to write articles in bleacher report is that they should be able to put two sentences together. Otherwise even Sienna could have written for Bleacher Report.
So Sienna kindly do not waste my time by producing articles written by morons.
Produce data and scientific studies.
Also establish how your data proves that Roger did not play in a weak era.
Saying average age of top 100 is inching upwards only means age of tennis stars is inching upwards. It could be because of change in technology, ATP age restrictions on players, people going to College before turning pro etc.
Your data, if you produce any which I doubt you are capable of doing, should show that (a) the same person other than Roger and of Roger's generation was consistently reaching gs finals in Roger's time and
(b) somebody of Roger's age, other than Roger, is now consistently reaching gs finals.
If you can prove the (a) part , that is enough for disproving weak era but I asked for (b) also just so that you know the difference between the Field and gs contenders.

xrf, I am disappointed by your post. I thought you were smarter than Sienna.
But you are just a Fedtard believing in delusions instead of facts and scientific studies.

Holdserve You always tend to look at a problem for the most unlogic way. I have proven now in the last few weeks time and time again that the solutions and answers I provide you are far more logical. Yet you keep on pounding on Fed bashing him with youre hatred. Feel free to keep on making these stupid and unlogical explanations and theorys.
These are the ones I am talking about You clearly have no answer just to say it is moronic.

1. Fed's era mutch stronger then this era.
2. Fed is actually the # 1 contender instead of Nada
3. The origin of the point system in tennis. That was a ball! 1 minute it took me to defuse ure farfetched theory and give the best possible one.
4. I kept you personally out of posting comments about youre hatred claims of Fed doping allegations
5. I provide undisputed scientific proof in orde to give rise to my claims

What more do want me to do? My english may not be as good as youres but I clearly outmanouvred you in all these facts. Boy or girl man or woman. It is game set and match.

Well, I'm just a Fed fan, saddened by the fact that he peaked at an era which has nothing to show for itself other than him and how that has come to define his exploits as a tennis player.
I did not try to refute your claim really, (the stringent requirements for 'data and scientific studies' would not allow me to do so anyway :P) . I just feel there is always a hint of subjectivity involved in the use of these claims, and I was just stating my point of view. All I see these days is rafans using it to prove how 10 is a bigger number than 16.

And the shame at having disappointed you is too much to bear, and I will certainly perform harakiri as soon as the wife gets back home and helps me find the katana.

Oh well, you are definitely better than Sienna who doesn't even know what are facts, data and scientific studies. Look at her moronic claim of having found an explanation for tennis scoring based on a currency which she assumes exists but frankly I don't know of any currency with 60 cents unit and her further assumption that tennis was played for money without producing any historical evidence.
If wife delays too much in getting back home ( maybe because she is a Rafa fan) may I humbly suggest substitutes like the rope or gun or water or fire or razor or poison.... Unless you are Japanese, you needn't commit harakiri. Plain suicide would do.

That. Really. Hurts. I was just trying to be a little dramatic.

Can holdsevre be banned from this site?
This is actually a deadwish and a threat.

Holdserve do you really think the metric system has been used trough out all of history? Can you not imagine that the metricsystem was not in used how currency and weight and meassurements were done? Actually in midle europe at the darkages was the time you must look for that currency. I already gave you al the rest of the information needed to find this best theory (it actually is world widely regarded as the possible theory) of course it is not mine, but you claimed to have found one yourself Delusional we call that. Yes with capital D

No silly. I'll stab myself with the knife, and the wife will decapitate me.
*disappointed*

No, you misunderstood. I no longer expect you to commit harakiri as you claim you were only being dramatic. I am therefore pinning my hopes on your wife taking you out assuming she is a Rafa fan, chances of which are high as most females are apparently compelled by oestrogen to lust after him.

Ah.

This thread is...colorful.

So we have, in no particular order

-a continuation of whether Fed's era was weak or not (which, as far as I can tell, has NOTHING to do with the article)
-an attempt at a tennis DATING site
-references to decapitation
-a discussion over the surprising gender of some of our posters

Yep. All in a day's work.

Incidentally, whether Federer's era was weak or not changes very little. Anyone who saw him play live when he was at his peak had to know they were watching something (someone) special. He produced magic on the tennis court and that's the flat-out truth.

well first of all i am a huge rafa fan i only read the post when i feel bored and i have nothing to do i just find it amusing to see the dog fight b/w rafa and roger fan neither of them is going to read your post and the question of a weak and strong era is totally stupid u can only play against the opponent in front of you roger dominated the entire field during his era except rafa on clay and you have to give him credit for that not just say blindly that he was in weak era it was not his fault that rafa ,noleand muzza was still developing there skills on court rafa deserves his credit for being a dominant force and now we have nole who is just as dominant as was pair of fedal it took him some time to reach and sustain the high level so stop making fun of any player by saying he was in weak era or by any means just give credit where it's due.

Completely agree cheryl, it was indeed "magic" on the court. The way he moved....could be a song in there somewhere.....used to take my breath away.

axius, if you don't understand something don't comment. .
Are all Fed fans incapable of understanding anything?
No one is making fun of Roger.
Just stating facts.
Was there anybody aged betwen 22 and 29 between 2003 and 2007 who won three grand slam titles in their career (other than Roger)?
No
So it was a weak era i.e. 2003-2007 had only one great i.e. Roger.
No one is blaming Roger for Rafa, Nole and Muzza being pre-prime in 2003-2007 i.e. being below 22.
Just facts that they were pre-prime and still developing their game.
Is anyone blaming Roger for being pre-prime before 2003?
What credit do you want me to give Roger? He was great but he found it easy to win GS titles because there was no other great in his prime between 2003 and 2007.
He would still have won gs titles but not so many. Between 2003-2007 he won 12. Maybe if it weren't weak era he would have won 6 -8.

i think holdserve is illiterate bcoz i have mentioned in the first line of my post that i am a huge rafa fan i don't like fed games but i admire what he has achieved in his life so don't post your comment without reading post of other fan's properly well my small advice to will be think before u ink on the forum vamos rafa

Incidentally, whether Federer's era was weak or not changes very little. Anyone who saw him play live when he was at his peak had to know they were watching something (someone) special. He produced magic on the tennis court and that's the flat-out truth.

cherylmurray , 7/11/11 4:37 AM


At the same time it's easy to look magical and special against weak opposition.

axius,
holdserve is no illiterate, she is borderliner. Andit is taking a whole new dimension. I really think the moderators should take action towards this person because she is getting more and more disturb. So she should be banned for a couple of weeks in order to set aside all the stuff she is doing at the moment.
People with open minds can relate to other people even if they are close minded and bitter.
So this enables me to envision holdserve and her daily routine.

Sitting in her room with tons of picture of rafa on the walls. (Rafa pre 2011 mind you not a hairlin in sight) talking to rafa , talking in herself. Of course getting angry at Federer referring to him as the mean guy! Her only way incommunicating with the outside world is TT site and she is about to launch a bomb! She is anxious and a little nervous. Maybe the world will recognize this as the "new" truth.
Oh yes I forgot tomention the altar or shrine she built for RAFA. It contains of course Rafa's 10 slams But she has a whole section in use where she would explain to whoever is concerned that 10 is more then 16 and thus she has put Roger "the mean guy" as second on the list. Erasing the 1 from 16.
In her mind this shrine is now complete and she can take ease at the fact that today is the day I'm sharing it with my friends .. and foe's. How would the world react to this bomb this revelation?

I feel something must be done, she should be stopped before she gets even more disturbed. Remember what happenend to Monica Seles? This is the same kind of worship and hatred shown by holdserve.

............u can only play against the opponent in front of you roger dominated the entire field during his era except rafa on clay and you have to give him credit for that not just say blindly that he was in weak era it was not his fault that rafa ,noleand muzza was still developing there skills on court rafa deserves his credit for being a dominant force and now we have nole who is just as dominant as was pair of fedal it took him some time to reach and sustain the high level so stop making fun of any player by saying he was in weak era or by any means just give credit where it's due.

axius , 7/11/11 7:26 AM

Of course it wasn't Roger's fault that the era in which he won a load of titles was weak, but that doesn't dispute the fact that the era was weak. To say that it wasn't Roger's fault that Rafa, Nole and Murray were still developing their skills is admitting that there was no one in Roger's age group to challenge him, it had to take players 5 & 6 years his juniors to come up with strong opposition.

Those who argue that Roger didn't flourish in a weak era should come up with the names of the players who challenged him before Rafa, Nole and Murray came along, not just say how great he looked.

first of all Nadaline.The proof was given a few posts ago. It is science that a good look.

But the likes of Hewitt, Safin, Roddick have accomplished more then the guys you are referring Djoker, Murray and maybe you should put Delpotro in the mix. 2 2 2 he was able to give it to the bulll completely fit and in shape.

But not forget Davydenko who still has the better against Rafa. That would be something Davy in prime in this era. He should really have a thrill in winning slams.
I even think there would be room for a slam for Davide if he had his prime in this era.

So if roger was a worst player and andy roddick won either wimbledon in 2004, 2005 or US Open 2006. Or if roddick beat roger in 2003 wimbledon or 2007 AO (then he would probably win the title). If some of those matches went roddick's way and he had 3 slams then it would have been a strong era. LOL!!!!!

I guess roger was so good in his prime he made the competition look weak.

The only player that challenged federer on slams, in roger's prime, was nadal on clay. That's it. Murray never defeated roger in GS, djokovic did it once in 2008, and roger and mono. (yes he beat him last year's US Open and this year's AO but that was past roger's prime). So djokovic and murray=strong era. They are very good players but roger in his prime would rarely lose to them in GS.

In the post above I meant to say "djokovic and murray=strong era??!!!", something like that.

And yes davydenko was a great player and roger had some difficult matches against him in AO QF, FO and US Open semis.
There's no doubt in my mind that davydenko, safin, roddick in their prime would beat nadal in surfaces other than clay.

dnalves stop it. You are blowing every last bit of the delusions of nadaline and holdserve to peaces.
Better be carefull if you live anywhere near them.
You actually say that if Rafa was in prime during Fed's era and if Fed even was not around he would only have like 6 Garros slams to account for.

nadline, the poor Fed fans cannot give names of great players who challenged Federer during 2003-2007.
They keep bringing up the names of Djoko and Andy M who were 16 -20 during the weak era 2003-2007.
Apparently all that matters is that Roger was in his prime. If he beat a 35 year old post prime Agassi or a 19 or 20 year old Djoko, it was still an example of how he beat great players but of course when Federer was below 22, he was too young. Other players don't have a prime and wins against them when they were 5 or 6 would count. Only Federer has a legitimate prime.
No point in arguing with these delusionals. Some of them like Sienna lack basic comprehension skills.

Incidentally, whether Federer's era was weak or not changes very little. Anyone who saw him play live when he was at his peak had to know they were watching something (someone) special. He produced magic on the tennis court and that's the flat-out truth.
cherylmurray, 7/11/11 4:37 AM

Very true words Cheryl!

Incidentally, if Nole were to go on a Roger-like run of winning 9 or 10 of 13 or 14 GS would this era be considered weak just because one man won most of the GS? Of course not! Only silly people think 2003-2007 was a weak era just because one man was clearly better than the rest. Reasoning people try it!

holdserve lives in a parallel universe. She clearly has formed it according to her own wishes and desires. The biggest asset she can controle in her universe is the # of slams won by Federer. On a bad day she obvious choose 6 and on a good day she feels a little less hatred choses 8.
Feel free to look at all the players Fed has beaten in order to win the 16 slams he has. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Federer_career_statistics

Hewitt still is a formidable grass player. In his prime he was a great grass player and it was solely because of Federer he is not one of the greatest. Roger beat him three times in Wimbly.
Maybe You should ask yourself why Nadal withdrew from 2009 Wimbly? He was scheduled to face Hewitt in R2 and therefor withdrew after a succesfull fitnes test.

They've changed the picture, I think there was someone complaining since the previous was a picture of roger and stan.

^^^Yes dnalves, I questioned the relevance of a picture of Federer and Stan at the 2008 Olympics going with an article about Federer praising Djokovic @ nadline , 7/8/11 6:44 PM

I'm glad someone takes notice of what I have to say.

Yes, I changed the photo. It's easy enough to click on the wrong one when posting. My apologies.

numero, I am sure you are either dense or pretending to be dense.
I have already explained that weak era means there were less than two greats in their prime playing in that period.
A rule of thumb definition of great: at least 3 gs titles based on rule of three ( once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action)
2003-2007: People in their prime during this period : aged between 22 and 29: Only Roger has won 3 or more. Hence weak era.
Greatness can be decided with benefit of hindsight i.e. Djoko playing between 2009 and 2010 makes it a strong era because he was between 22-29 and he has won 3 gs titles before the end of his career .
Also Fed was between 22 and 29 and so was Nadal, between 2008 and 2010. So it was strong era.
As long as Nadal does not cross 29 and he still plays,
all Djokovic's further wins will fall under strong era.
Federer is above 29 so even though he has more than 3 gs titles, his presence no longer counts for determining weak or strong era.

If Rafa's prime coincide with Fed's prime, then I think Fed would have to share his Wimbledon titles with Rafa. It is not right to say that Davy and Safin will beat Rafa other than on clay, as both Davy and Safin were not good on grass so Rafa will beat them on clay and on grass. The Rafa in his prime is also good on hard courts, as proven by his two hard court slam titles, so he may not lose to Roddick that easily. When Rafa lost to Roddick in the 2004 USO, Rafa was only 18, definitely not in his prime. So these generalisation that Safin, Davy and Roddick would sure beat Rafa other than on clay is quite simply baseless assumption, as I seem to remember that Rafa at age 19, was already world no.2 when Davy, Roddick and Safin were still in their prime, ie they were 23-25 years old then, and they can't even rank ahead of a 19 year old! And here people are talking about a prime Rafa vs prime Davy, Roddick and Safin. I think only Safin and Davy will beat Rafa on hard courts, and Rafa will beat both of them on clay and grass. Roddick may be comparable with Rafa on grass but Rafa will beat Roddick on clay and hard ( we are talking about a Rafa at his prime here, not a 18 yo Rafa, guys!). Again the fact that a 19 yo Rafa can be ranked no.2 in the world against a field of players in their prime, ie between 23-25 yos, with some of them being slam winners, tells me how good Rafa was as a teenager.

We're in a weak clay era according to holdserve's meaningless logic. Rafa's multiple french opens don't count. He's not that great on clay, he just has no opposition due to his weak era. Just out of curiosity, what specifically, SPECIFICALLY, have I ever said that makes you think I'm a fed fan? Just wondering.

So Cheryl, is your alter ego Johan Lindahl?

Other characteristics of weak era which stem from the absence of greats in Roger's age group but which cannot be taken independently to prove weak era but in combination:
1) positions 2 or even 3 being occupied by pre-primes
2) Absence of rivalry from same age group i.e. Roger meeting the same person from his age group in significant number of gs finals.
In fact Roddick and Hewitt could not even be top 2 for long. proving they were not sufficiently above the field to beat the field on a consistent basis i.e. they were not great.

Not sure Rafa's clay era is weak as he did beat Moya, FO champion 1998, Albert Costa, FO champion 2002; Ferrero 2003 FO champion; Gardio 2004 FO champion, on clay. He had also beaten Coria multiple times on clay, in 2005 MC and Rome, and of course Fed many times on clay, at MC, Rome and the FO. Rafa had beaten some of them when he was a teenager. Had Kuerten, Wilander or Lendl beaten that many FO champions on clay in their respective careers? I won't doubt Borg's credentials on clay, as he's the only one with as many FOs as Rafa.

Hey ts38 your lack of logic and delusional status convinced me you were a Fed fan.
Kindly point out how my logic proves we are in a weak era on clay? Making silly criticisms based on delusions is hallmark of Fed fans.
Winning gs titles consistently by one person doesn't make an era weak. It is the absence of rivalry. Since Nadal won his clay slams against the same rival viz Federer most of the time, it is a strong era even if we consider clay separately though it is not required except by delusional Fed fans who seem to question the status of clay on every parameter simply because their idol is clearly bested by Rafa on that surface.
Weak era or strong era is not surface specific. Get it, delusional?

Nadline - no...I just fix problems when they crop up on tennistalk. Surely you can tell that his writing style is completely different from mine?

^^^I thought he couldn't possibly be you. Maybe Johan thought the picture was of Roger and Nole. Lol

@ts38, 7/11/11 5:57 PM

It's best to ignore that poster as she lacks reasoning skills and common sense. Some people think by repeating the same BS ad nauseam makes it true. Talk about delusional! Repetition is a sure sign of limited intelligence. Just make up a bunch of hullabaloo and keep repeating it. Maybe they can convince themselves eventually. ;)

Numero, it is you who lacks reasoning and common sense.
You are delusional and keep disputing weak era hypothesis ad nauseam without producing a single argument to prove me wrong.
You repeat your bs and stupid allegations all the time. I exposed your muscle and doping allegations and warned you against repeating your senseless allegations.
Sure I agree in your case repetition is a sign of your retardation. But as I am trying to explain to morons I have to keep repeating. Did I mention I am a teacher? The first law of teaching, please repeat the explanation until the student understands. If the student is a moron like you , ts 38 and Sienna( who is a super moron), I have to keep repeating. It is very frustrating trying to explain to thickheads and even though I am a good teacher, I think I have met the thickheads to beat all thickheads so I fear I have to admit defeat.
I remember how insecure you are about your logic. You and torres9 attacked me when I stated that I was top 2% in logic. I proved to you by means of elegant reasoning that you and torres9 are morons.
You and Torres9 between you two have made numerous moronic statements like Fed is like a chicken, claiming Nadal is a follower of Satan if he doesn't believe in GOD, the list is endless. Do you remember the logical fallacy I exposed in your statement that if Nadal doesn't believe in God, he believes in Satan. To use your own words against you, I have shamed and humiliated you many times and you have been exposed as petty and absurd.

Those who can't ....... become teachers.

I have a parrot who is capable of repeating anything I say. The only living entity who repeats itself more than a parrot is you. To call you a "bird brain" would be too insulting to parrots everywhere so I'll refrain. Seems like the parrots have a higher IQ than you.

Sienna, u r right out of order with that remark. I thought Holland was meant to be a liberal tolerant place. Moron does not mean the same as Downs Syndrome btw it means mildly stupid :(

I have an other statement to make. Hopefully some young free spirit will pick it up in order to provide the scientific data. Like what happenend when I introduced you with the fact that todays top 50-100 are listed with a lot a lot more ölder guy's then the previous generation. Proving the fact that it is undisputed and with logic and facts that the Fed era was stronger then this era.

The new issue.
I ve noticed that the nadalettes on this site claim weak/strong era because Nada was very young already #2 in the world.

I wish those people took the time to look at the early part of Rafa tennis carreer. He had already the Nadalteam backing him. And they let him play of course almost 100% on clay/ Building on that he took Garros very young and his points early on were amost solely based on clay.
So Rafa being the great claycourter he turned out to be was clearly favored because he played almost only on clay early on. That is also why his win loss ratio is disformed . When he would have had "normal years" He would have lost clearly a lot more on HC etc.
Goodnight.

holdserve and Sienna -

At the risk of sounding like a parent disciplining a naughty child--- knock it off. Both of you. I don't want to have to go around banning people tonight. Thanks.

cheryl, my exchanges were with numero, not sienna since I have already decided that I will not respond to her even if you do not ban her. She has made racist attacks and also indulged in name calling in some thread and name calling in every thread. Besides she is very annoying claiming logic and scientific studies when she doesn't even know what it means. Now I have stopped reading her posts.
Now numero attacked me unprovoked and I have only used back the same words he has used on me. All my exchanges are with him though I might have referred to Sienna.
How come you are not pulling him up? He has said I have no common sense, no reasoning skills, I am a bird brain etc.
In all fairness, you should have asked him also to knock it off.
I am very unhappy with this discriminatory approach and till you do warn him, I propose not to post here hereafter as a mark of protest.

In the last...say 25 posts, it was you and Sienna that have been the problem. Hence my "warning". But yes, by all means.

Numero. Knock it off. In fact, everyone stop insulting each other. It requires massive amounts of my time to sort through the posts and try to get rid of the inappropriate ones. Hours even. Let's act civilized, shall we?

If Rafa solely relies on his clay court points and still emerges as the second best player for so long, and two third of the ATP tournaments are on hard courts, then I'll say shame on the other top players, who can't even beat this boy that is only good on clay, in the rankings!

The truth is since 2006, Rafa's ranking points is made up of 40 % from clay court events and 60% from grass and hard court events. Even in 2010, Rafa's best year, his 5000 points from clay only made up 40% of his ranking points of 12450. Fed's ranking was also made up of 30+ % on clay all these years. It's until last year, that Fed was no longer winning anything on clay and grass and relied almost solely on his hard court points to push him to no.2 in the rankings. It looks like this year may be the same for Fed.

Correction:
Prior to 2008, Fed was relying heavily on hard courts to rake up his ranking points, clay only contributed 20% or less; it was in 2008 and 2009, Fed began to rely more on his clay court points, making up 30+% of his ranking points.

However, after 2009, it seems that Fed can't win on clay and grass anymore and so it's back to relying on his hard court game again.

The reason why Federer , Nadal and Djokovic are good at what they do is because they havent wasted their precious time in life commenting on someone elses performance.

Ha good one there nirv02. However there are people here who are also successful in their careers, some are retirees and they love the tennis game and so spend much time watching and commenting on tennis and the players. FYI Fed, Rafa and Nole are not the only successful people around, there are many who are also successful in their own repesctive trade. My objection about some postings here are those solely for player bashings. Seems to me Rafa and then Fed are the two players being bashed the most here, and it's ironical that they are the two most successful players around and being loved all over the world by many.

Cheers, cheryl. I for one think you do a gr8 job :)

Please also note that from 2008 till now, Rafa was/is ranked within the top three where hard court ranking points were concerned. His non clay ranking points last year was 7450( 12450-5000), which was even higher than Murray's overall ranking points. Without the clay points, Rafa would still be among the top three last year! He would be ranked within the top five in 2008-2009 even without his clay court ranking points, and that's how good Rafa had/has become on non clay surfaces.

Luckystar
I'm glad ypu agree with me that the early rise of Rafa has been greately achieved because he was such a frormidable claycorter. Nothing wrong with that. It just is and we can now understand why he was at the top of the rankings as fast as he
did.

It is actually very important because it takes away claims for weakest strongets era wich has eben on this thread or on others. Thank you for accknowledging (wow did I spell that correctly?) I.m actually typing and not using spellingcontrole or dictionary.....

ooo sh 1c but that was just a typo!

I don't get it Sienna,
How does 'luckystar' agree with you and how does it affect the weak era claims?
... I am a dreadful speller on this site too I have to say ..... luckily they don't ban people from mispelling :)

I think sienna has some serious comprehension problems. I stated clearly that the atp tours is made up of two third hard court events and so players who are good on hard courts have all the advantages over players who are good on other surfaces. So logically speaking, the likes of Safin, Roddick and Davy have all the advantages over young Rafa if it is as claimed by sienna, that they are so much better than Rafa on the hard courts.

Rafa finished the year 2005 as no.2 in the world and he had played 9 hard court events, amassing 1820 points. Roddick finished the year as no.3, playing 13 hard court events, amassing 2,030 points. Davy finished the year as no.7 , playing 18 hard court events, amassing 1,395 points. So, how were Roddick and Davy any better than Rafa on the hard courts? Roddick was better than Rafa on grass that year, as Roddick reached the Wimbledon final and collected 700 points, while Rafa being an upstart on grass, collected only 35 points at Wimbledon.

In 2006, Rafa missed the AO due to foot injury, he played 10 hard court events amassing 1,415 points. He also reached the Wimbledon final and QF of Queens, so he got 755 points on grass.(Total of hard + grass = 2170). Roddick reached the final of USO and had played 12 hard court events, amassing 2,150 points, however he did badly on grass, getting only 175 points. So Roddick had 2325 non clay points vs Rafa's 2170, how then was Roddick any significantly better than Rafa on non clay surfaces? Davy needed 18 hard court events to collect 2,205 points, how was that any better than Rafa, Davy having to play 8 more events than Rafa?

All the above proved that what sienna claimed, that Rafa only depended on his clay events to boost his rankings, was not true, even from as early as 2005-2006. As Rafa gets better on grass and on hard courts, about 60-65% of his ranking points are now from grass and hard courts events, and so we see him having 7450 points from non clay events last year, which can even take him to no.3 in the world, without the help from his clay events.

Too old player Davydenko >>> Nadal

Roger Federer is a No,1 favorite player of the fans for 8 years. Record. in ATP.com.

However, becomes weak of Roger today...

I think Novak bettet then Nadal. Congrats Novak

I think Rafa better than Fed too!

I think I've got the hang of this now.
*munches on some popcorn*

Listen Luckystar better pay respect to post of Cheryl. You should not give a judgement about mij comprehensive skills. Then the fight will start all over again. Just try to be objective and use facts and logic like I do. You don't have to give judgement about what is said just keep it clean.

I clearly was speaking about the rise ofRafa through the rankings. You said yourself.......The truth is since 2006, Rafa's ranking points is made up of 40 % from clay court events and 60% from grass and hard court events. Even in 2010, Rafa's best year, his 5000 points from ....etc...

So you acknowledge the fact that prior he rose at the end of 2005 dew solely on the expanse of claycourt. No big deal but it is the truth. From that point on he tried to fit in the rest of the surfaces.
But he could rely on a protected ranking.

Listen it is very smartand wise of teamNadal but other players did not have that luxury and had to learn the trade the hard way and so they took longer to reach the protected rankings rafa got from being a great claycourter.

I think it is a great comprehention of the way of the rise of Rafa. But again and I say it very clearly. It is not a big deal. It only explaines the swift rise of Rafa. Thus sets straight of being that a pro for claiming the ERA WEAK. I amnot depriving Rafa of anything, I only give a sound explanation of his swift rise to the ranking. So if you do not understand this then I am very dissapointed in you.

Sienna, it seems that you're the one not understanding this. I've explain in my post above yet you failed to see it yourself. Now in 2005, Roddick being no.3 in the world, had 3245 points, made up of 2030 on hard, 925 on grass and 290 on clay. Rafa being no.2 in the world, had 5090 points, made up of 1820 on hard, 40 on grass and 3230 on clay. Rafa had a total of 1,860 points on non clay surfaces, and he needed only 1385 points to equal Roddick's 3245 points, and so Rafa needed merely his RG and one clay masters, totaling 1500 points and he'll be no.2 in the world. He needed only two clay events to beat Roddick, not all of his 10 clay events that year, and how was two events being considered as over relying on clay? All the remaining 8 clay events were extras, and he actually need not used them to beat the no.3 player Roddick. You call that buffer, the problem is he never needed to use that buffer, so it is irrelevant.

In 2006, Davy was no.3 in the world with 3,300 points, made up of 2205 on hard, 15 on grass and 1080 on clay. Rafa was no.2 with 4470 points, made up of 1415 on hard, 755 on grass and 2300 on clay. So basically Rafa needed two of his four clay events to make up the difference of 1130 points (ie 3300-1415-755) which was about 50% of his clay points, not forgetting Davy himself had 1080 clay points too. How then was Rafa over relying on his clay events to beat the rest to his no.2 ranking? We are comparing with the rest of the field, not against Fed the no.1 player then. Fed himself was over relying on his hard court events to rake up his ranking points, with clay contributing only 20% of his total points. Still his 'buffer' over Rafa was good enough that he might not need to use up all his hard court points to beat Rafa to his no.1 position. All these may sound too complicated for you, but just think over it and you may get the gist of it.

Even in 2008, Rafa's hard court points were only second to Nole's and with a win at Wimbledon, his hard court and grass court points were more than enough to beat Nole and Fed on the two surfaces, so again he wasn't relying solely on his clay court points to beat the others to his no.1 ranking.

Listen luckystar. It is ok.
You already acknowledged my pledge for the quick rise of Rafa. It was because ofthe many clay points. So from 2006 onwards he was able to use his protected ranking for gaining more points. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

I am glad we are inmutuak agreement about this point. It is actually very important because it takes away the critical and biggest asset or major evidence (i am lost for a good word here) to prove the weak era were holdserve was screaming about.
Anyway we both have come to an agreement and defintely set a side that stupid theory (if you can call a delussion like that) of holdserve.

Thank for being a good sport and again acknowledging the fact that I was right. Not inso many words, but through youre own information shared whit us.

I have a feeling you two could go on at this forever and still not come across - there is some barrier.
Luckystar is playing Rafa in continuously throwing arguments left and right but Sienna, playing Nole, is like a brick wall and deflects them
:)

Novak Djokovic has defeated Rafael Nadal five straight times, something no player has managed before. How does he do it?

"I guess you have to try to stick with him, you have to try to hold the serve," Djokovic said. "You have to figure out the moment and find the moment when you need to put extra pressure on your opponent, and that's what I did. Obviously, against Nadal, if you're not aggressive enough, you have no chance. You have to be aggressive, but yet again, you have to put some variety, you know, you have to give him as well some opportunity to be aggressive, so you try to mix up, and that's the whole key thing."

He illustrated just that by serving and volleying to set up match point during the Wimbledon final, showing how much more confident he has become in pressure situations. His technique was simple. "Just close your eyes, hit slice, go to the net and hope he will chip the one back," joked the Serb, but added: "I mean, you got to take the chances, you know. In those moments, you have to believe that you can do it, not wait for your opponent to make a mistake.

Shireling - the point I'm trying to make is rather simple, ie Rafa does not rely solely on his clay court results to get to his no.1 or no.2 positions. People always focus on his clay court results and jump into conclusion that it's because he's so good on clay, that that helps him to move up the rankings. If we analyse the make up of his ranking points, we can see that he's also very good on grass and hard courts. He's no.2 on grass since 2006 and no.1 in 2008 & 2010. He's top three on the hard courts in 2007, no.2 in 2008 & 2010, and no.1 in 2009(yes no.1 even in 2009, his worst year, if we take in only countable events for Nole, as Nole played more hard court events than Rafa that year). So his no.2 on grass and no.2 or 3 on hard courts are enough to earn him many ranking points that his clay court points need not contribute too
much for him to get to his no.2 and then no.1 position. In those days, ie from 2005 to 2007, the only one that he couldn't catch was Fed.

sanju - if you can remember, in that 2008 Wimbledon final, Rafa also S& V on one crucial point in the final set; that was his only S & V point in the entire match and it caught Fed by surprise. Nole is simply employing the same trick that Rafa once employed. Nole certainly studied Rafa and gets some inspiration from the way Rafa plays. Rafa really needs to mix things up to keep Nole guessing. Take some inspiration from Fed and Murray, even though I think Rafa's own game played during the earlier hard court season this year should be enough to deal with Nole, if he gets rid of the mental block he has against Nole.

Hey Shireling, Sienna is always a brick wall, totally immune to logic and deaf to arguments. She will keep repeating her opinion, claim it is logical and based on scientific studies ( like the non-existent currency which she claims existed in Europe based on, guess what, her delusions. But she insists it is all based on logic and science.)
But she isn't a Nole fan. She is a Fed fan and anti-Rafa. Maybe she is maxi.
Her variable levels of language skills lead me to suspect that this Dutch act is bogus.

Luckystar
I'm actually understand what you are saying, but you are speaking of the time he was already #2. I am not depriving Rafa of anything with what I'm saying. But trugh youre posts you are actually agreeing with my vision and that is pre 2006 he rose fairly quickly because soleluy because he was a outstanding claycort player.
So that does not diminish Rafa burt itakes away a ground of the weak era nonsense.

holdserve
thank you very mutch for the complement. Soat times my language is up to standard. WOW the teacher pays a compliment.

Misschien dat dit je kan overtuigen. Roger Federer is de beste tennisser aller tijden. Wij noemen dat hem ook de GOAT. Alleen omdat het zo'n heerlijke afkorting is.
Ik ben eigenlijk oud genoeg om Edberg te hebben zien spelen, maar te jong om Borg te zien spelen. Misschien dat je wel enkele goed nederlandse spelers kent, maar jij zult alleen Krajicek kennen. Je zult wel nooit van de naam Tom Okker gehoord hebben. Dit was een legendarisch nederlandse speler die een van de eerste spelers was met een geweldige topspin! Iets waar Rafa zijn #1 ranking aan te danken heeft gehad.

Goedendag.

Oh evenin my own language I make mistakes...

Wij noemen hem dan ook de GOAT!

But i gues you did not notice that.

@luckystar: "Nole is simply employing the same trick that Rafa once employed. Nole certainly studied Rafa and gets some inspiration from the way Rafa plays."

Sure... All match he was thinking how Rafa made similar point 3 years ago... You guys are really pushing borders of fan fanaticism. Rafa or Fed didn't invent tennis...

atg.. it is quite plain that Djoko has made Rafa his model for getting better at tennis, this is not being fanatic. In fact, all the changes he's made to his game have been to neutralise and find a way to beat Rafa - which he clearly has.
- He has improved his fitness.
- He has improved his mindset during match play (not so much negativity as before)
- He has learnt to bide his time and not go for winners all the time (guess from whom he's picked this up).
I'm not saying that Rafa is the role-model to follow if one wants to become the 'ultimate' tennis player, that would be ludicrous but Nole was obsessed about losing to Rafa so luckystar's comment makes perfect sense.

Well, there was I thinking that Fedal invented tennis. You learn something everyday.

Exactly shireling. It's atg who pushes fanaticism to the border. Come on atg, you think Nole suddenly improved out of nowhere? The way he is playing now is exactly how Rafa plays all along, until after 2009, when Rafa beef up his attack and plays an all court game. Nole now plays Rafa's defence/offence game, no longer going for the lines as much as he did in the past. Nole has improved his fitness, he no longer gets tired easily or affected by the heat, and that helps him to play with confidence, that he can outlast anyone, hence he need not take too much risks, and thus reducing his paint the line tennis. His improved fitness has allowed him to run around all day and his natural flexibility does help him in those almost impossible gets. His serve is back to his 2008 level and his ROS is the best in the business. He has also improved his forehand and thus he can now attack effectively from both wings. All these help make Nole a better player, and he does play the defence/offence game even better than Rafa as he takes his position at or close to the baseline, unlike Rafa who is further away from the baseline and thus has to cover more grounds. Nole is not one attacking player, unlike Fed. In fact he's more aggressive in the past and took more risks then, maybe because he had to due to his fitness issues in the past.

Murray too learns alot from Rafa by studying his game. Murray mentioned that he loves watching Rafa plays, I think he likes Rafa's ability in point construction and how he works to trap his opponents.

I must add that it's normal for players to study the game of some successful players. I understand that Fed studied how Sampras and Agassi played and thought of ways to beat them. I believe Rafa also studied how Fed plays, and thinks of ways to beat him. I do notice that when Rafa first played against Fed in 2004, Rafa was hitting his forehand rather flat. Even in his matches against Hewitt at the AO 2004 & 2005, his forehand was already rather awesome, hitting some 100+ mph flat forehands, that JMac was praising throughout the matches. It seems to me that after Rafa has found a way to beating Fed on clay, ie hitting topspin forehands to Fed's backhand, that Rafa sticks to this winning formula and keeps hitting topspin forehand rather than his flat forehand. It's only until the AO 2009 that I saw his flat forehand reappeared. Right now Rafa can hit his forehand with topspin or hit it flat, depending on the surface and also his opponents.

"Murray too learns alot from Rafa by studying his game. Murray mentioned that he loves watching Rafa plays, I think he likes Rafa's ability in point construction and how he works to trap his opponents. ..."

The improvements in Andy's physicality & fitness were adaptations ALL ABOUT taking on Rafa and understanding what was really necessary to accomplish this goal. After the AO 5 setter in 07 where Andy simply ran out of steam, it became crystal clear to him and his team that to beat Nadal (and therefore improve his chances of Grandslam success) his stamina and fitness HAD to be improved.
Novak's fitness had to be improved anyway (and has now due to his diet etc), but I've certainly seen a change in style from him also, from what was a more an all court Federer like game a few years ago to a much more defense orientated Nadal like approach now.
He's become a wall that's able to hit winners from both the forehand side and backhand with equal effectiveness. And this is the new and improved model that produces the results nowadays.
Rafa quite simply had set the standard in fitness, power and concentration and so far it?s only the Djoko-Bunny (you know the energising kind) that has finally passed the test (the greatest in Tennis) with flying colours, and reaped the rewards.
Roger's failure in the past to accept and adapt to the new Nadal environment either through vanity or bad judgement, contributed to his own relative downfall (to Nadal) years ago.
Going on, it remains to be seen whether if Rafa, by simply improving elements of his game (as he did last year to great effect with his serve), rather than a full on change of approach to counter Novak will be sufficient for him to be a real No 1 contender again, as clearly he can no longer rely on `wearing down` Novak from behind the baseline on ANY surface, it seems.....

..if say Delpo starts whacking everybody to smithereens in the next tourneys then they'll all have to adapt and go for the lines again :)

Rafa has the game to deal with Nole, well at least on the hard courts. He came closest to beating Nole on the hard courts, others are not even near! Fed was beaten in straight sets at the AO despite his efforts. What Rafa lacked back then (IW/Miami) were his serve and his backhand, also his fitness. On clay, Rafa can no longer outlast Nole from the baseline and Rafa was caught between playing his old clay court game (where speed and fitness were the corner stones for his clay court game) and his all round game on hard courts. I believe given time, Rafa will successfully implement his now more successful and more aggressive hard court game onto clay and grass.

" I believe given time, Rafa will successfully implement his now more successful and more aggressive hard court game onto clay and grass"

Well,
If you're correct Lucky (I'm going to reserve judgment on that till after the USO), we are going to find ourselves in the highly ironic situation of a `Nadal` like Djokovic
taking on a `Federer` like Nadal!??!
Interesting....
Tell me, why do you think Nadal has a `more successful` all court/hard court game now anyway?
Is it because he won the US last year?
Or is it due to the fact that he was runner up to Novak on the early US Hardcourt swing?
Remember he did manage to defend RG, but of-course that was against the Fed.
So.....

Sosueme, it was since the USO last year. Rafa has improved on his hard court game by playing more aggressively, standing closer to the baseline, and coming to the net as often as possible. At IW, his serve really failed him but still he managed to win a set against Nole. Also after his illness and injury, his fitness was affected in addition to his serve and his backhand. Again he made it close in the Miami final.

Contrast that to his results at Rome and Madrid, where he was beaten in striaght sets. The difference to me was that Rafa was playing his old clay court game, standing further away from the baseline, playing basically a baseline game without realizing that he was not as fit and as fast as he was one year ago to outlast his opponents when he had to. Also there's this guy who was fitter and moved quicker than him even in clay! He had finally met his match on clay now, when his fitness had came down from it's peak. I've no doubt that the Rafa on clay in 2008 could still beat this Nole, simply because he moved better and was physically more powerful than this Nole. Also that Rafa was so full of confidence and so mentally focused. This Wimbledon final, I was also surprised that Rafa took a more defensive position in the final by standing further away from the baseline. I thought he was more aggressive earlier on during the tournament. His DTL forehand was firing well during the final but his nerve failed him again. All in all, as long as Rafa plays aggressively and tries to dictate play, he'll have his chances to beat Nole, right now the most important thing for Rafa is to have the right frame of mind when facing Nole.

"Again he made it close in the Miami final"

Where he was soundly beaten. Despite winning the first set.
Reading between the lines, are you suggesting that Rafa is no longer capable
Of playing the defensive game of before as potently and he has begun some kind of physical decline that requires a shortening of the points in order to extend his career as well as gain the tactical edge?
If that is the case and I'm guessing it is, well it's a shrewd (and necessary) move. 
He could also do the Williams sisters thing of effectively retiring from the tour save the clay court season the slams and build up tournaments. This would 
Also help to keep him  fresh and formidable.
No one  can expect any player to chase every point and hit with such sustained venom forever the way Rafa has, it's un- human.
Remember his original style was geared to the soft clay courts that are much more forgiving to the body.
Lleyton Hewitt had a similar approach but it didn't last nearly as long and once he had hip surgery, his days at the top, playing THAT way, were over.
Well see if your right, but you also have to appreciate that your logic is basically that...Nadal is a better hard court player now than natural surface because he didn't get beaten as BADLY on the hard courts as the natural surfaces by Djokovic.
Its not completely encouraging is it?
But it doesn't mean your wrong.
And on the plus side, at present it seems that it's only one player causing all the problems for him (although one can be enough, as Federer understands)
As for being confident and having the right mind set, well that's easier said than done really Lucky. Though Rafa was number 2 for a long time I always thought he had the confidence of the number one player throughout (he was so dominant on clay for starters) Now it's Novak who is in possession of that crucial advantage, let's face it people perform better when they're confident, their brains move up a gear or 2. You can't just switch it on, something has to happen before you really believe and right now I'm guessing that perhaps the first time Rafa doesn't believe he's going to win when he faces Djoko-Bunny across the net, as he has beaten him easily in many of his 'home' tournaments, where he normally stocks up on self belief.
The hard court swing however IS a fresh start for everyone & is really going to be interesting and crucial for a number of players this year.

@luckystar: "Come on atg, you think Nole suddenly improved out of nowhere?"

Certainly it didn't came from Rafa. Guy is working on himself since age of 4... Rafa and Fed was such dominant duo, and one of the best players ever he needed to defeat. They made him to bring his level of play so high in order to beat them. And it's stops there. He or anybody else is not copying anyone game, most of them have different styles, shots, positioning, serve.... Yes, Rafa and Novak both have same grip, but absolutely different methods of swing... If we are going to talk about Novak role model, than I will disappoint you - it is Sampras.

What players are copying is tactics how to play against some players. But they are using heir own weapons to implement that tactics. All those stories about copying Rafa game are for kids and what we were doing as kids in summer camps, "copying" game of our idols, outfit and even grunts... grow up....

atg - again come on, who is talking about copying the strokes here? nole is 24, not 4 yo. Of course we are talking about tactics here! Do you think I can't see for myself that Nole hits flat shots and not those topspin shots that Rafa hits? As I've mentioned, these players studied each other's games, sometimes copy the tactics, sometimes think of ways to beat them. In Nole's case, he obviously copied Rafa's tactics and did better than Rafa, as he was effective when attacking from both wings, both CC and DTL. I don't see why you should feel offended about it. Now if we talk about Dimitrov, then I think he really copies Fed, stroke for stroke. I don't think Nole does not.

sosueme - yes, I feel that this year, Rafa's game is better on hard courts than on natural surfaces. As I've mentioned time and again, he's getting more aggressive to shorten points and to save his body, so far he's more successful on the hard courts than on clay, against the field this year. This year, except at Barcelona, he has been losing sets to his opponents, like Murray, Fed, Lorenzi and of course even matches to Nole. Btw, I don't consider Rafa was soundly beaten by Nole in Miami, he was narrowly beaten as the third set went to a tiebreak.

As I've mentioned before, Rafa needs to bring his more aggressive game from the hard courts
to clay and grass, because as he gets older, he won't he able to execute his old clay court game that well anymore. His old clay and grass court games are more baseline games so there'll come a stage that he will no longer able to outlast his opponents at the baseline. As for the mental aspect of his game, do take into consideration how Rafa overcame his problems, almost a crisis, during 2009, his worst year since his end 2005 foot injury. This Nole problem is really not that bad, as Nole will have his bad patches like anyone else, and he won't be playing like this, ie with only one loss, forever. Do note that it's not only Rafa that Nole is beating, but also the rest of the field, it's just that Rafa makes it that far all the time to reach the finals and it makes him seems bad falling to the same guy all the time. Just imagine Rafa not making some of the finals, and we won't be talking about Nole as Rafa's nemesis now, but talking about maybe Fed is done, by losing SFs at slams to Nole, well at least before the FO this year, people are wondering how bad it would be for Fed to lose three consecutive SFs in slams to the same guy. As it turns out Fed is able to savage some pride at the FO.

"don't consider Rafa was soundly beaten by Nole in Miami, he was narrowly beaten as the third set went to a tiebreak.."
Sorry, I mixed it up with IW, where he was soundly beaten (but his serve had gone AWOL)
No Novak won't dominate forever, maybe even for much longer, we'll see. I've nothing more to offer to this particular debate until I witness them all in action...... I can't wait, and I have to admit part of it is due to your pitch....

Yes we shall see, for it's no point arguing here as we are not the players and we can't control the way they play and feel.

atg - I know Nole is your favorite player but I'm in no way discrediting him for copying Rafa's tactics (in my opinion). Rafa is also trying to emulate Fed, learning how to approach the net as effectively as possible and learning to play the all court and more aggressive game. Rafa mentioned about his own net game compared to Fed. He said that Fed grown up during the S&V era and he was able to S&V well. Rafa himself isn't in that era and so what he's doing
now is to set up his point nicely before approaching the net; maybe that's why Rafa always approach the net at the right time and is seldom passed at the net. He also
rarely S&V and does it more as a surprise approach.

Federer and Nadal MADE Djokovic:

Now, as the first player to break the Federer/Nadal stranglehold on No. 1 in almost seven and a half years, he can credit them for helping to make him the player he is. "We all know how good they are, how they always raise their level of performance in the big occasions, how they always play their best tennis in the last four of a Grand Slam," Djokovic said. "I know that if I want to win against them in the semifinals, finals of a Grand Slam, I have to raise my game, I have to play on top of my game. I have to improve, and they made me improve. They made me a better player.

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/babaP

@luckystar: we have to agree that we disagree. I am just bothered by "trademarking" everything to Fedal. If someone need to learn to serve and volley, it doesn't have anything with Federer and fact that he is doing that great. You don't learn that by watching TV!!! Same is for CC and DTL, Novak didn't learned that from Rafa... Novak defense is maybe better than Rafas, but not by watching TV and pulling pants out of his ass... it is because better movement on court and better anticipation and better stamina. Novak fought his own daemons to solve diet/allergies/asthma and bring fitness on top of Rafa. Anticipation comes from head and experience and with time.

Novak changed "tactics" from 2nd half of 2010, and not because he want to look more like Rafa or Fed, but because everyone were suggesting that going for the lines is impossible all the times. He become more disciplined, controlling himself much better, mentally he become calmer and stronger and it gave results. Now you will say, Fedal exactly are like that so he copied him - NO! all successful players NEEDS to be like that in order to be better than others and be no.1

What players are doing, is copying tactics when they play against someone. After Fed loss in AO 2008, when Novak exploited 90% shots on his backhand, until RG every player tried to exploit same tactic against him. Which resulted with extremely trained Feds backhand after half season of playing one shot. That is common to all players, trying to exploit vulnerabilities.

So in case of Novak - Rafa matches, it is pointless to say that Novak copied Rafa to beat him... Was he watching Nadal hitting the wall? If he copied someone else tactics to beat Rafa, I would like to know from whom? Rafa lost almost just by Novak. I know that is self soothing to some extent to say that Novak beats Rafa with his own weapon, but it is ludicrous to state that he copied Rafa. I understand frustration being beaten so many times in the row in finals, but fantasying that Novak did that by playing Rafas game is on border of schizophrenia.

Reason why I am even debating with you, is just because that you and nny were the most reasonable rafans on TT and in the most heats of discussions and debates were mostly on ground (as much as Rafa fan can be). But with those silly statements it even crossed my mind that someone hijacked your account...

In order to be good as Rafa and Federer, you need to be better than them. And like @nadline cited, Novak said he needs to raise HIS game, play on top of HIS game. If there was no Fedal, he might be no.1 in 2008 till now, but surely he won't be playing so good like now. Same is with Rafa who needed Federer to set such high mark that needs to be reached in order to be no.1... Only things you need to copy is to WORK HARD!

I simply can't remember season that for such long period, you were seeing top 4-5 players in the QF of EVERY major/masters... Even in strongest eras, you were expecting that some of top shots will jump out of wagon sooner... dependency to surface was more prominent... what I am witnessing now, is something unbelievable and while everyone is blinded with Novak streak, I see that Rafa has unbelievable streak and rest of big 4+1 (Delpo). That can be explained that evolution of tennis level went so far, to extremes where rest of tour suddenly look pale and second league...

Let's see what HC season brings... I can't imagine this continuing any longer... If season end on this note, It would be time for doping control to include DNA testing on alien traces...

atg - as I've mentioned, it's the tactics that the players learned to deal with each other, not the strokes or the ball striking or whatever. I'm not fantazing about Nole copying from Rafa, just because Nole starting to beat Rafa now. If that's the case, then I would say Davy or Delpo were copying from Rafa when they beat Rafa four and three times in a row respectively. Even Nole was beating Rafa thrice in a row in 2009 but you never hear me saying then that Nole was copying anything from Rafa. It's just that right now Nole was playing a different game from his paint the line tennis in the past. He has improved his fitness, which allows him to be confident and patient in dealing with his opponents, knowing that he can stay with them and outlast them, and so he's playing now a better defence, wall like game, and at the same time combining that with offence. Now that's precisely what Rafa was playing all along. Even Murray realized that fitness is the key to stay with Rafa in a match and hence he also beef
up his fitness. In fact if you ask me, both Nole and Murray are playing the defence/offence game now like what Rafa does so well all along.

Now if we look at how Fedal play, they are both successful with their own style, Fed being all out attacking player and Rafa being a defence/offence kind of player. I tend to classify the old Nole as more attacking then defending, so he's more like Fed than Rafa in the past, except that he takes more risk than Fed. Now Nole seems to play more like Rafa, beefing up his defence and no longer going for too risky shots. So it's a matter of tactics that he adopts now that suits him at this stage of his career and it seems to work very well now. Again I'm not talking about copying exactly how Rafa plays, but using the same tactics. Rafa is now learning to play more aggressively and may move away from his successful defence/offence model as he's not getting any younger or faster so he has to think of shortening points and saving his body.

Players keep changing tactics to suit themselves at various stages of their career, Fed is also trying to rush the net as much as possible now recognizing his limitations now at the baseline. There's nothing wrong with learning from each other about tactics and so on.

Rightly so!
And one can say that the changing of the tactics is intrinsically linked to the dominant oponent. Otherwise there is no need for a change of tactic, is there?
I'm sure Rafa will tweak his game now, as we've discussed, to try to come up with an answer for this season's Novak.

Rafa has been the reason for the rise in the quality of men's tennis. When Federer was dominating, IMO, no one could really put their finger on the reason for his success because it seemed so effortless so the players were resigned to their fate. Once Rafa came on with a very different style and beating Federer regularly players began to try to improve their game to be able to beat Rafa and ultimately Roger.

The biggest barrier that Rafa's got against Nole at the moment is a lack of confidence. He just has to beat Nole once and his confidence will be back and things between them will be back to normal.

... what you say is true nadline
When Rafa started beating Fed despite not being quite there yet in terms of his tennis; this started a belief movement amongst the other talented upcoming youngsters, i.e: Murray, (even Gulbis.)- I put Nole in another place because I think he always believed he could beat Fed.
All this while at the same time denting Fed's almost supernatural confidence.

nadline, I have to say that even if Nadal gets his confidence back he won't be the dominant player in the rivalry with djokovic. From now on I think that djokovic will win most of the matches he plays against nadal, almost like what happens with nadal and federer.

I hope you're wrong dnalves! :)

Well dnalves, you are free to think that, but I don't think that's what will happen. Once Nadal start beating Djkovic again, Djokovic is going to start losing his confidence. As we've seen no one is invincible. Djokovic didn't look that invincible against Tomic and Tsonga, even against Murray when they played in Rome.

It's amazing that Andy and Nole have only played each other 9 times. Nole leads 6-3.

I don't think Nole will dominate over Rafa. Rafa has a good tennis brain and is a problem solver. He's always thinking of improving his tennis. In the past he had solved the Berdych/Blake/Gonzo problem, followed by the Sod/Delpo problem; he'll solve the Nole and in future the Murray or whoever problem. Rafa's game is still evolving, it's not stagnant and Rafa has played the game that Nole is playing now, unlike Fed who played differently from Rafa and find Rafa's game hard for him to crack.

"As we've seen no one is invincible. Djokovic didn't look that invincible against Tomic and Tsonga, even against Murray when they played in Rome...."

'Even'?
What an interesting way of looking at things Nadline, as he actually SERVED for the match in Rome,
Okay, he f!?,ked it up. But it was Something Tomic and Tsonga were not even close to doing......

i.e: Murray, (even Gulbis.)- I put Nole in another place because I think he always believed he could beat Fed. ...
@shireling
Andy along with Simon I think and the emperor Raffington are the only players to have positive h2h against the Fed. At one point a few years ago it was 62 for Andy so with that he focussed on what he realised would be his bigger nemesis ie Senor Puss n Boots II
And started to beef it up!
So I disagree with your assertion on this....

Yes, I meant to point out that Murray actually served for the match in Rome against Nole.

Update,
Simon and the Fed are now neck n neck @ 22
But one of the Feds victories was an early retirement and the other a 5 setter in AO,
Damn, those counterpunchers really know how to get under his skin, don't they just?

Djokovic always had the tennis skill to beat nadal, what he lacked was stamina and physical endurance.
Now that he achieved that it's up to Nadal to change his game, but that's no easy task.
Nadal's loopy topspin forehand is easily delt by djokovic's backhand, he is even able to attack taking the ball on the rise. Djokovic also covers the court exceptionally well (remember the wimbledon article whose title was "Nadal finds out what it feels like to be 'Rafa-ed'").

The H2H was 7-5 on hardcourts to djokovic before 2011, now it's 9-5.
I really can't see Nadal beating djokovic in the hardcourt season, it doesn't mean it can't happen but let's say djokovic will always be the huge favourite.

Djoker's recent domination of the Rafa just made clear what I always thought of Rafa's H2H against Fed.

Rafa is only a bad matchup for Fed just like Gilles Simon is to Fed

a) Rafa and Gilles returns good
b) Rafa has the looping forehand which always pawns Fed's one-hander.

With Djoker, Rafa's looping forehand is Djoker's BH's food. I watched the rallies in WImby 2011 rallies and basically it's the same thing:-

1) Both try to blow each other off the court
2) Rafa hits a cross court looping forehand to Djoker's BH
3) Djoker rips a BH cross court which will produce either a clean winner, an error from Rafa, a returned shot that's half-court,

And Fed has a better chance of beating 100% Djoker because
1) Fed can slice the ball wayyyy better than Nadal so Djoker will have a lot of guessing to do
2) Fed has better serve

i'm sorry but the current Nole is probably the most effective version of a tennis player I have ever seen.

They used to say the same sort of thing about Nadal/Nalbandian & Nadal/Delpo just because Rafa lost a couple of times to them. I admit there has never been that much of a difference between them, even though Rafa had a hugh h2h lead until this year, it was evident that either of them could win anytime they met so I am not that surprised that Rafa has lost to Djokovic 5 times in a row, the toss could always go either way. I do believe that Rafa has got a lack of confidence against Nole at he moment which is a contributing factor; he just has to get it back.

Rafa had that with a 0-2 h2h with Nalbandian and managed to shake it off at IW couple of years ago in the middle of the match saving 5 match points, going from 1 set and 2-5 down to taking the match in 3 sets winning the 3rd set 6-0. It's a mind set thing, once he gets over that, things will be back to normal.

"Rafa had that with a 0-2 h2h with Nalbandian and managed to shake it off at IW couple of years ago in the middle of the match saving 5 match points, going from 1 set and 2-5 down to taking the match in 3 sets winning the 3rd set 6-0. It's a mind set thing, once he gets over that, things will be back to normal...."

'Back to normal' ?
By which you mean Nadal shall dominate him again?
You're always good with the excuses Nadline,
According to you Rafa hasn't ever actually EVER lost to anybody unless there was some kind of extenuating reason for it.
Life can be so unfair, even to him right?
But these kind of explanations go both ways as it's clear that most who take to the court Against Rafa tend to suffer from a lack of confidence too.
I know Andy does for sure.
Could it not be that the reason Rafa has less confidence is because Novak is (right now) simply the better player?

Novak can't be better than Nadal... he can beat him from time to time, he can have 5:0 score this year, but he is so inferior overall.

"Novak can't be better than Nadal... he can beat him from time to time, he can have 5:0 score this year, but he is so inferior overall.
atg, 7/16/11 12:28 AM..."

Interesting atg,
I thought you were a big fan of the djoko-bunny,
Looking at it from the perspective of someone that likes Novak a lot, follows him but who supports another player.
I would still be far too embarrassed to state that Novak was a 'so inferior' player. 
Ha-ha-ha!
That, and the fact I just don't agree with you.
Nadal's Better quite possibly, but not this year.
FYI A 5:0 deficit is NOT from 'time to time' either, ESP when it includes a Wimbledon final!
That's simply not a logical conclusion to draw.
Still, your humility is welcome change from certain people on TT.....

Sosueme - you can't differentiate sarcasm from humility??

Nole and Rafa's matches will always be close from now onwards. Those who say that Nole will dominate over Rafa from now onwards, please remember how close the match was at Miami this year, and that Rafa was not even at 100% of his fitness. Also it was on a hard court, Nole's favorite surface.

Now on clay, is it a surprise that Nole seems to play better than Rafa on clay, more than on hard courts? Well look at Rafa's court position on clay, how far he stands behind the baseline. While he can afford to do that in the past, he can't do that now because 1) he's quicker in the past. Just compare his 2010 with his 2011, he's alot more aggressive and moved a lot quicker in 2010. He commented that he can't move well this year on clay, he can't slide well!; 2) he's facing a player that moves as well as him or even quicker than him this year. Standing so far behind the baseline means covering more ground and giving his opponents more time to set up his shots. Now even on grass, I noticed that though Rafa tried to he aggressive, he's still standing too far away from the baseline.

What I'm saying is: if Rafa wants to beat Nole, he has to play his aggressive all court game, something we saw him do at Miami this year, from the hard courts to the clay courts and on to grass. In other words, play his aggressive game on all surfaces, stop adjusting his court positions at the baseline, just play the same way on all surfaces. Do note that both Fed and Nole are playing the same way regardless of surfaces, it's time that Rafa does that with his all court game. His old clay court game which is essentially a baseline game, has served it's purpose, now it's time for it to be retired and be replaced by Rafa's new found game. Do it on all surfaces, Rafa, and you won't be beaten all the time in the final. It'll be 50-50 with Nole at the other end of the court, as Nole always has the talent to challenge Rafa, though Rafa has a good tennis brain to help him solve his problems on the court. It's a matter of coming to terms with Nole's rise and now has to think of a way to deal with him; just like how he think of solving the Fed puzzle in the past when no one else knows how to solve the puzzle. Tennis matches can be intriguing, if we can see some guys problem solving on the court itself and turn some seemingly lost courses to their favor.

torres9 - Nole is the most effective version of a tennis player now. I must add, it may come at a price. Just look at his left knee now, and we're only half or two third of the season so far. Do remember what all the running did to Rafa's knees in the past, and I'm sceptical about players beefing up their fitness and try to run the whole day, the likes of Monfils, Murray and now Nole.

I'm a Rafa fan, but from the way both Rafa and Uncle Toni sounded, they both agree that Fed is the ultimate player that both of them hope that Rafa can emulate, and I agree with them. As much as I love Rafa and he's always my favorite player, I've always hope that he can work on his game and reduce those running and have in place a more aggressive all court game. I'm glad that this year at the hard courts, he's finally playing the way I wish he can play, of course his play was affected by his illness and injury, but that aside, he's finally showing what he can do at the net, how intelligently he can play by coming to the net at the right time, timing his approaches almost perfectly. All I wish now is for Rafa to improve his ROS, add in the effective DTL backhand shot to his repetroire and plays aggressively on all courts, that way he'll be hard to beat again.

So to me, the most effective player is a combination of Fed and Rafa, one who can switch from topspin to flat forehand as and when required, one who can have both a SHBH and a DHBH; one who can serve like Fed, one who can S&V effectively and one who can time his approaches to the net almost perfectly all the time; one who is both effective at the net and at the baseline; one who can returns well, one who has all the shots in the book; one who knows how to move well on all surfaces; one who has the mental focus and concentration all the time during a match; one who has the fitness and stamina to maintain the high level of play consistently throughout a match, one who rarely gets injured, etc and etc..

Hard to find a player like this, Fed comes close but not enough. Rafa is good at many things but always get injured. Nole now is good at most things but can he last, that's the question I have in mind, looking at the way he plays, not much difference from the way Rafa played in the past with all the running, certainly not like the way Fed plays.

Nadline, According to you Rafa hasn't ever actually EVER lost to anybody unless there was some kind of extenuating reason for it.
Life can be so unfair, even to him right?

Sosueme , 7/15/11 10:41 PM


You've got it in one!

What people refuse to accept is that Rafa plays sublime tennis 95% of the time so when he loses, it must be for some other reason not related to his tennis, that has to be the case. That's not rocket science, it just stands to reason.

One more thing torres, Rafa has his FHDTL shots where he can execute at both his forehand and backhand corner, and also he has his I/O forehand that can cause the damage. As I said before, Rafa needs his BHDTL shots to be firing well so that like Nole, he can go CC and DTL from both wings and keeps his opponents guessing, something Nole does so well these days. Also if Rafa chooses not to come to the net but stays at the baseline to rally with Nole, then he has to hit hard, flat penetrating shots at Nole, something Fed did successfully during the FO SF match this year, failing to do that, any short ball, Nole will pounce on it as he can take the ball early, steps into the court and hits his angled shots so effectively.

nadline, do hope that's a tongue in cheek remark @9.28 because otherwise....?????
lucky, it's all so interesting, as Rafa's rolling cc forehand completely does for Fed's one handed backhand, so it completely plays to Nole's strength, his dh backhand.
Can Rafa solve a problem like Nole, that's the million dollar question.

nadline you need a reality check. Can there really be someone so gullible that thinks all the injury related shenanigans that nadal and his camp do are real??!!
Obviously their objective is for people to believe that "...Rafa plays sublime tennis 95% of the time so when he loses, it must be for some other reason not related to his tennis...". I just thought that there was no one that would believe this diversionary tactics.

Deuce - yes Rafa can solve the Nole problem. Why? Because Rafa can depend on his DTL and I/O forehand too. Also he can hit his forehand flat instead of topspin all the time, it's a matter of him doing it regularly instead of now doing it occasionally. Rafa does have a flat forehand. To me Rafa needs to play aggressively all the time when playing against Nole. He has to mix things up instead of being so predictable, like hitting CC forehands and backhands all day long. He really needs to improve his ROS and backhand DTL shots. It's unlike Rafa vs Fed where Fed can't do much with his SHBH, though lately Fed has done something with his backhand and it's no longer a liability(relatively speaking) to him.

What I can't believe is that some people cannot see the woods for the trees. Just because some put it about that Rafa fakes injury doesn't make it true. I am not really relating to injury sustained during play, I am saying that extenuating circumstances such as a cronic injury, suffering a run down of the body due to flu, emotional stress and loss of confidence are all things that have played a part in Rafa's losses.

If anyone expects me to buy the lie that Rafa fakes injury when he is losing, I can cite cases when his back has been against the wall and he didn't take any MTOs or call the trainer. If there was any occasion calling for a fake MTO, it would have been during the 1st Rnd at RG against Isner, or against Lorenzi in Rome when he was a set and 1-5 down in the 2nd set before he rallied round and took the 2nd set then the 3rd set 6-0. Those 2 matches were key to Rafa's reputation as the King of Clay and he didn't fake any injury.

Dnalves is just another Rafa hater who can't accept Rafa's dominance over Fed and so accuses Rafa of doping and faking injury - exactly like Numero. Probably they are the same person. There are a few of them around. What that shows is how bitter they are, unable to accept that Fed's dominance during a weak era was never going to last for eternity. Pathetic but it's really funny reading their posts to see how they desperately try to make their lies believed as a way of making it 'truth' in order to deal with their disappointments and bitterness. Have fun trying!!!

Yes, well said nadline. People want to pick and choose the matches that Rafa took MTOs, but forgetting that in those important matches that he lost, he didn't take any MTOs, like his AO 2008 SF against Tsonga, where he was beaten badly; his USO SF 2009 against Delpo, again he was beaten badly. His USO 2008 SF against Murray, his Wimbledon 2011 final; his painful FO 2009 4th round match against Sod! All these were important matches that Rafa lost and yet he didn't summon the trainer to the court. There were reasons why he lost, but he was rarely outplayed since he became no.1, most of the matches that he lost were hard fought ones.

Fed in his haydays still lost to some players, notably to Rafa of course, then to players like Murray, Safin and Nalby, so we shouldn't expect Rafa not to lose to anyone, more so if Rafa chooses to play some crazy schedule like playing three weeks in a row!

We should make a pole to see how many delusional nadal fans, and I mean those extreme fans like the graf fan that stabed seles, believe that nadal never loses playing without injury.
Even so I guess not many of them believe what nadline defends because that's just not real, jean and nadline must live in an alternative reality.

Nadal faking injuries has nothing to do with federer or any other player it has to do with nadal only. I find funny that nadal fans always relate everything with federer such is the despair of knowing that their as picking boy will never reach federer's achievements and the GOAT status of course.

I won't even bother listing the injury-faking cases surrounding nadal. But I do understand you poor nadal fans for trying not to believe that he's a cheater and employs gamesmanship tactics to win matches. If federer did that I would try and come up with excuses also.

So now that djokovic is continuing the "nadal demolotion project", nadal fans have to turn their bitterness and anger to federer fans. Relax, nadal has far overachieved in terms of hardcourt tiltes.

P.S.:And jean who said I don't accept nadal dominance over federer?!?! I never said anything regarding that. Nadal dominates federer on clay, on the other surfaces it is pretty even.

The resimple. t's only the deluded bitter Fed fans like yourself and Numero, etc who are making the accusations. And yes, Fed actually cheats. I suppose oyu turned a blind eye to his match against Davydenko on 2010 - you know all teh news about him going to the toilet THE MOMENT the umpire called time, he was in there for ages and then came out an dchanged his shirt, taking his time on his seat all the while Davy was waiting at the baseline. LOL! You see only what you want to see and your bitterness and rose-tented glasses skews your vision. Good for you. Gonzo has done it too - also at AO strangely enough.

Pretty even? There again...rose tinted glasses. IF you want to be the best, the surface shouldn't matter. All of a sudden, clay stands out from the other surfaces and there are all sorts of slow and fast hard courts. You guys are pathetically hilarious. Dig on for any petty excuses. It's quite fun watching you struggle and whine and whinge all due to your bitterness and hatred. No fun when it eats you up, eh?

Have a nice day!

dnalves - i think you've gone overboard by saying that Rafa cheats by faking injuries. Proof please, or are all these accusations your own conjectures? You're not the trainer or the doctor who examine Rafa, so it's better that you stop accusing Rafa when you can't provide any solid proof. Imagine someone accusing Fed of some faking or gamesmanship, do you, as his fan, feel good about it? So stop all these baseless accusations, the more you post all these, the more they make you feel like a bitter Fed fan.

Btw, it's too early to say that Nole is doing a demolition job, it's just half a season, unlike what Rafa did to Fed all these years. I understand the bitterness gathered all these years and so the hope for somebody to destroy Rafa, as Fed needed someone to do the job for him, though unfortunately, it means another round of demolition for Fed at the hands of the new no.1!

Also I remembered that in 2009 when Delpo had beaten Rafa thrice in a row, some Fed fans were so happy that they had finally found the perfect player to destroy Rafa, however what they didn't expect was that same player also deprived Fed of his six in a row USO title, and had also beaten Fed twice in a row! Now they are hoping for Nole to be the new demolition man, only to have that same person administering some demolition jobs on Fed too. Good luck to these group of Fed fans, continue wishing, for what they wish for would come with some backlash against their beloved Fed.

'What people refuse to accept is that Rafa plays sublime tennis 95% of the time so when he loses, it must be for some other reason not related to his tennis, that has to be the case. That's not rocket science, it just stands to reason.'
Nadline-do you really think that? I really hope you're joking, because theres no way a rational human being can think that is true.

luckystar-Nadal and nadal fans should be grateful that federer did the job for him and took out djokovic in the semis of RG, or else we could be looking at possible calendar GS on the making.

Do you know why no one acuses federer of gamesmanship and faking injuries? Because he doesn't give anyone reasons for that!!
Of course the ATP is going to be silent about nadal because it would hurt the game.

Djokovic is 5-0 against nadal this year.
Djokovic is 3-1 against Federer this year.
Seems the demolotion is being more severe to nadal.

You must really be hardheaded, do you really think I'm a bitter fan?! Federer is the GOAT, everything else that we wins from now on is just "cherry on top of the cake".

"What people refuse to accept is that Rafa plays sublime tennis 95% of the time so when he loses, it must be for some other reason not related to his tennis, that has to be the case. That's not rocket science, it just stands to reason..."

The reason people refuse to accept it is because it isn't true Nadline.
Senor Puss n Boots plays good tennis most of the time, great tennis some of the time, and incredible tennis occasionally. All usually executed when relative to what's required, and he always seems to know when it is required and that's what makes him a great champion.
It's also about style, some people, quite a lot in fact (ESP fed fans), just don't like the way he plays. They may prefer a player with a light touch who goes for winners and is more artistic, less defensive etc..
The French (very generally speaking) are not into Rafas 'style'.
And it really is as simple as that...

"What people refuse to accept is that Rafa plays sublime tennis 95% of the time so when he loses, it must be for some other reason not related to his tennis, that has to be the case. That's not rocket science, it just stands to reason..."

Also,  if ANY of the top 4 play at their 'sublime' very best there's basically nothing much anyone can do about it.
Including the rest of the top 4.
It's how often and consistently they can do it in a season and in a match that matters.
And if they're allowed to do it by their opponents as well.
Last year at the WTF Rafa was for the most part outplayed by Murray in the semis but hung in there like the champ he is and eeked the win.
What I'm saying is it's not all about great tennis in the purest sense, it's the players ability to find a way to get the to the finishing line first.
Maybe this is even more important for some than others.
And THAT is not rocket science either Nadline...

You know what is funny... If Novak keeps winning like this next three years, you will be still gabbing again, and again about same stuff... Rafa will still loose when he is no 150% OK, Fed will loose when he lets someone else to win. I am OK with that, I wouldn't care much if we agree that Earth is flat... but can we move on :)

I am close to start petition among Novak fans, to let Rafa win next time, so we can resume with our lives :) I've seen stats, Rafa had 5:0 streak against Novak, I don't remember it was so big time then?

Fedfans are OK with 3:1, and I guess he will prepare big wiggling fingers for all future match ups with Novak

dnalves - even though you refused to admit, you're really one bitter Fed fan, or else why pick on Rafa and imagining that he fakes his injuries? Why can't you also accept that Fed also engaged in gamesmanship? It's because you're one die hard Fed fan that you failed to see the truth. Put it this way, every player employs some gamesmanship, it will be naive to think that some players don't do it. No player is above the board, Fedal included, so cut the act of I'm holier than thou, both for yourself and for your beloved Fed.

Who is to say that Nole vs Fed will stay at 3-1? There's still tennis to be played, and Fed is 1-3 and 0-3 against Nole and Rafa this year so far, nothing to be proud of. Yeah, Rafa has to thank Fed for taking out Nole, what about Fed thanking Sod who took Rafa out of the FO in 2009? If not for Sod, I guess Fed is still seeking that elusive FO title now, not to mention that career slam! So dnalves be thankful that your dear Fed got all the help that he needed at the
FO, so don't come here to boast about Fed helping Rafa! BTW whether Nole gets his calendar slam or not this year, that's Nole's business, not Rafa's, also there's still the USO to be won, so who knows whether Nole miss his chance at a calendar slam or not!

You know what is funny... If Novak keeps winning like this next three years, you will be still gabbing again, and again about same stuff... Rafa will still loose when he is no 150% OK, Fed will loose when he lets someone else to win. I am OK with that, I wouldn't care much if we agree that Earth is flat... but can we move on....

ATG,
Stop being so bitter man,
Your boy Novak is without A SINGLE DOUBT,
THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD.
There's no need to be resentful, you should be pissing your pants with joy.
Metaphorically speaking of course....

atg - it's no big time then because nobody expect Nole to win then. It's big time now because nobody expect Rafa to lose. It's big time now because after Delpo in 2009, some Fed fans have their hope raised again, of having someone finally to demolish Rafa. Also they want Rafa demolished because they're worried that Rafa will catch up with Fed on the slam counts. If Nole happen to threaten Fed's slam tally in future, look to these same group of fans to sing hallelujahs when they find someone who can demolish Nole. This story will repeat itself and goes on and on...

Are you really that blind??!! I think I will stop posting seen you can't seem to see what's right in front of you. Just putting federer and nadal in the same boat when talking about gamesmanship is truly a feat only a severe mentally ill, over the top, obsessed nadal fan can do.

I'm not like you, you're blind when it comes to nadal, you can't bring yourself to say anything that's not positive about him. You're obsessed. That's a whole other level when it comes to being a fan, that's going overboard.

I am a federer fan, but I admit that federer can lose when playing his best, for example the AO 2005 semis, federer played incrdible but safin just was the better player that day. I'm not blind like you. You should seek treatment.
And I'll say it again so you're thick head gets it, Federer is the GOAT anything that he wins from now on is just a bonus (although I wouldn't like him to beat djokovic in the semis and handing nadal the titles).

And to think all this posts started because a nadal fan said and I quote "
What people refuse to accept is that Rafa plays sublime tennis 95% of the time so when he loses, it must be for some other reason not related to his tennis, that has to be the case. That's not rocket science, it just stands to reason."

P.S.: This post is directed only at luckystar and nadline, they're from what I've read obssesed. Also there must be some nadal fans that don't think their idol is undefeatable when playing without injuries.

"P.S.: This post is directed only at luckystar and nadline, they're from what I've read obssesed. Also there must be some nadal fans that don't think their idol is undefeatable when playing without injuries..."
dnalves
You're being a bit unfair to Lucky I think.
I shouldnt get involved but I've read most of her stuff &
She's easily one of the most reasonable posters on here,
Of any of the supporters, while still being a big Rafa fan.
Nadline however,
well.....
Ha-ha-ha!

Dnalves is just one blind bitter Fed fan who is now having a problem with Nole winning a calender slam. Why should Rafans have a problem with that? If Nole wins a calender slam, sooner or later, than that will be because he deserves it, he's worked hard and raised his game and fitness. Hence his results so far this year! Wow, such a bitter glory worshipping Fed fan really can't get over other players getting better results or getting the better of Fed.

The so-called GOAT is still chasing that elusive singles title at the Olympics - considered the pinacle of sports - and has a losing H2H with Rafa and Murray. Get over your bitterness Dnalves, this is getting funnier by the minute!!! You can't change Fed's past results against Rafa so no matter how you twist it or what lies you conjure about Rafa using dope and cheating, nothing will change. I see you conveniently ignored the fact that Fed outrightly CHEATED at the AO 2010 during his match with Davy! His mind games with Murray before the finals also played out well for him. VERY professional and PERFECT as in your blinded eyes! Shows how you are willing to lower your standards (assuming you have some!) to accept Fed's shortcomings as normal while making up lies and baseless accusations about his rivals because you simply can't accept the truth that they had/have Fed's number. LOL. How sad...and hilarious!

dnalves - I think you're the thick headed one. When did I post anything about Rafa not losing? Please go and check through all my posts before accusing me of anything! As usual, you're fond of posting all your crap accusations, especially about Rafa doping and you still has the cheek to get angry! You're fortunate not to be warned by Cheryl here, so stop all these crap talk of yours, stop pretending that you're one fair Fed fan here. I'll be thankful if you can stop posting all your crap accusations about Rafa and doping here. Thank you on advance!!

nadline...u WERE serious..OMG ever heard of hubris?
lucky, looking forward to what Rafa comes up with re Nole...but Fed never solved the problem of Rafa...;)

Last year at the WTF Rafa was for the most part outplayed by Murray in the semis but hung in there like the champ he is and eeked the win.

Sosueme , 7/16/11 3:40 PM

In YOUR opinion, Sosueme, which is biased towards Murray. I grant you one thing though, Rafa could have made a better job of beating Murray then, but saying Murray outplayed the man who beat him is stretching your imagination.

Those who accuse Rafa of faking injury never respond tho anecdotal evidence that he didn't fake any thing at a time when it would have been crucial for him to do so if he was that way inclined, which he most definitely is NOT.
****************

I am close to start petition among Novak fans, to let Rafa win next time, so we can resume with our lives :) I've seen stats, Rafa had 5:0 streak against Novak, I don't remember it was so big time then?

atg , 7/16/11 3:50 PM

Exactly atg, Rafa had a 5-0 streak against Nole, and no one thought it was the end of Nole, or that he would never beat Rafa again.

What people refuse to accept is that Rafa plays sublime tennis 95% of the time so when he loses, it must be for some other reason not related to his tennis, that has to be the case. That's not rocket science, it just stands to reason.

nadline, 7/16/11 9:28 AM

Isn't this a clear example of the word 'delusional'? I await confirmation from the 'expert' on the matter.

I actually waited to confirm that she wasn't joking before posting this but it's clear that she does believe the propaganda so Rafa's team is fooling at least 1 person.

I believe that evil thinkers are evil doers. Those who believe Rafa is a cheat are judging him by their own standards i.e in the circumstances they would cheat, so that's what they expect of others.

It's ironical that the same people who were so sure that Rafa's body would pack up by the age of 25 are the same people who are surprised that he has to take injury time out every now and again. Make up your minds, either Rafa's style has taken a toll on his body or it hasn't. You can't have it both ways.

Sorry that I don't read your post totally but I've got much better things to do.
However reading the first sentence of jean's post I have to tell him/her to read my posts carefully. I never said that I have a problem with djokovic winning a calendar GS. I just said that had federer not won in R semis we would be looking at 6-0 djokovic over nadal.

I only have problems with players who cheat, aka Nadal. And with fanatics like some of the people who post here.

And to think this series of posts started with this post "What people refuse to accept is that Rafa plays sublime tennis 95% of the time so when he loses, it must be for some other reason not related to his tennis, that has to be the case. That's not rocket science, it just stands to reason.".

Need I say more?!

P.S.: And yes I'm a fair federer fan, I just don't like cheaters and nadal happens to be a cheater. I have no problems with djokovic or murray because they don't cheat, go figure.

"In YOUR opinion, Sosueme, which is biased towards Murray. I grant you one thing though, Rafa could have made a better job of beating Murray then, but saying Murray outplayed the man who beat him is stretching your imagination...."

Yes, in my OPINION  Rafa was, for the most part, outplayed in that match.
Murray won the the most points for starters.
But being a great match winner he found a way to win it.
My opinions also, I may add, aren't nearly as BIASED as your endless libido infused propaganda!
You never seem to talk about Tennis here, you just keep blabbering about how Rafa is much better than everyone else.
Like some strange cross between Glenn Close in 'Basic Instinct'
And a Justin Bieber 'tweener'. 
But more fanatical!
What a combination!
Honestly people, if we could only somehow get a look at the numerous invoices for Nadline's facial rejuvenation 'work' . I wouldn't be too surprised if Uncle Tonis signature was signed on the bottom line of every single one of them!

"Honestly people, if we could only somehow get a look at the numerous invoices for Nadline's facial rejuvenation 'work' . I wouldn't be too surprised if Uncle Tonis signature was signed on the bottom line of every single one of them!"

LOL!!!

Thanks Sos - Basic Instinct indeed. Justin Bieber is not within ny radar so can't relate to that, sorry.

I love to laugh at people getting red under the colar because they get so irate when they read the truth.

I'm not 'red under the collar' sweetheart.
I don't take you seriously enough for that.
Ultimately you're really not someone worth arguing with either as you are simply oblivious to the pleasures and responsibilities of having a rational mind.
But you do serve a purpose here that's for sure.....

I don't take you seriously enough for that.
Sosueme , 7/16/11 5:26 PM

Glad to hear it.

dnalves that's your own problem, as you base your biased assumptions on your own judgement but not on facts. I'm one of those who thinks Fed employs gamesmenship and that may be considered as unfair play or cheating if we may call it. We can all have our opinions, but the way you do it, by suspecting Rafa of doping, makes people wonder whether you qualify as a fair Fed fan! Fair or not is not up to you to declare it yourself, but how others perceived it and sadly, you don't appear as one fair fan. From what you've posted, it appears more like you're a bitter Fed fan rather than a fair minded Fed fan. Your hatred for Rafa has blinded your ability to deal with facts vs assumptions. You claim that Rafa is a cheater, yet you can't provide any solid proof that he cheated. Why only hate on Rafa when there are others who 'cheated' also? Obviously you only point finger at Rafa but not anyone else because of what he had done to Fed, ie he had beaten Fed seventeen out of twenty five times they'd played.

Glad to hear it.....
@Nadline

Trust me my sweet.
It'll PASS......

"I'm one of those who thinks Fed employs gamesmenship and that may be considered as unfair play or cheating if we may call it."

What can I say?! There's no use, you don't get it.

You balme me for thinking nadal is cheating and yet you say federer employs gamesmanship. It is 100 times more probable for nadal to be cheating than federer using gamesmanship. And could you provide some examples?

I'll stop responding to your posts (unless you're able to surpass your recent posts in terms of stupidity, fantasy and fanatism, which is hard but I've learned to expect the unexpected with nadal fanatics).

Deuce - one thing about Rafa, he's one who looks for improvement in his game always. It's his ability to be honest with himself that helps him to see his own shortcomings and hence think of ways to improve and overcome these shortcomings. In the last he had lost to Berdych, Blake, Gonzo, Youzhny and Nalby many times before he figure out how to get the better of them. He overcame Youzhny first if I'm not wrong, followed by Gonzo, Berdych, and since 2008 Blake too and Nalby from 2009. He faced his next problem in 2009, ie Sod and Delpo, who had beaten him at FO and the USO respectively that year, both were big hitters. What happened after that? Rafa figured out how to beat them, first Sod at the 2010 FO and Delpo this year. Note that before he had beaten Berdych regularly, he was beaten by Berdych the first three times they played. He was beaten twice in a row by Sod, thrice in a row by Delpo before he gets the better of both. He was also beaten thrice in a row by Nole in 2009 but came back in 2010 and beat Nole twice. Rafa always has the ability to figure things out when faced with a problem. He may not solve the problem immediately but give him some time and he'll
come out with a solution. He was also beaten by Fed twice at Wimbledon before he figure out how to win on grass, so Nole won't be a permanent problem for Rafa.

OK, I'll concede that maybe 95% is too high, I'll settle for 83% of sublime tennis from Rafa, the 17% losses account for fatigue, illness, loss of confidence etc.

Did I REALLY say Nadline was like Glenn Close's character in BASIC INSTINCT.
Tut, tut,
What a terrible faux pas to make regarding the history of cinematic crazy b,?!es!
Glenn Close's character was in Fatal Attraction.
Silly me!
But let's just throw Sharon Stone's character into the mix as well
As she fits too!

In terms of stupidity, fanaticism, biased assumptions and baseless accusations, no one can top the list except dnalves. dnalves really has a way of jumping into conclusion without reading the posts and yet can come out with all those craps and claimed that he has better things to do than reading through the posts. Obviously he didn't read about what mindgames Fed played, what gamesmenship he employed when they're all being posted out there. So dnalves, please spare us all your accusations, one more doping accusation from you about Rafa, we'll make sure Cheryl do something about you and your postings.

I normally don't engage in such meaningless arguments but time and again this dnalves fella keep harping about Rafa as a cheater and about him doping really pissed me off to no end. Stop all these craps and stop hiding behind the 'i'm a fair Fed fan' whatever nonsense shield. You're a bitter Fed fan and a Rafa hater, come admit it!

Poor nadal fanatic you are luckystar. Being a fanatic and not a a fan you WISH every fan was a a fanatic. Unfortunately for you I'm a fan not a fanatic. Only a fanatic has the nerve and narrow-mind to say that federer uses gamesmanship and can't say a negative thing about nadal. Your posts are ludicrious.

I never said nadal dopes I said he cheats, and go cry to cheryl all you want.

You just can't bring yourself to say something about nadal that's not positive. Is he perfect?! No. you are perfectly out of your mind.

I hate cheaters, you say I hate nadal. So... Nadal=cheater!! It's just mine (and a lot of other people's) opinion.

You're pissed off because you know deep down that there's a strong possibility that he's doing what you claim I say he does!!
Got it? Or is it too confusing for your little brain?

Not to worry Sos, we all make mistakes, just like you mistakenly not appreciating Rafa. Glenn Close, Sharon Stone, who cares? Never boiled a rabbit before, well not whilst it was still alive anyway.

OK, I'll concede that maybe 95% is too high, I'll settle for 83% of sublime tennis from Rafa, the 17% losses account for fatigue, illness, loss of confidence etc.
nadline, 7/16/11 5:59 PM

That still adds up to 100%. So there was never a match in his career in which he played his best and still lost to a better player on that day? To your thinking, there is an excuse why he has lost every single match?

Ok now you're really stepping even deeper into it. To borrow a word from Cheryl :

Insufferable!

To borrow the favorite word on this site :

Delusional!

"Not to worry Sos, we all make mistakes, just like you mistakenly not appreciating Rafa.."

It's not sinking in Nadline, is it?

Ha-ha-ha!

That still adds up to 100%. So there was never a match in his career in which he played his best and still lost to a better player on that day? To your thinking, there is an excuse why he has lost every single match?

numero , 7/16/11 6:32 PM

Not any match that I've see. Maybe when he was 15, 16 still learning and playing seasoned players. Rafa has won 83% of the matches he's played and when you think that he turned pro at 15, a large chunk of the 17% of matches he's lost would be made up of matches lost when he was a mere boy who should have been playing children of his age not grown men like Alex Coretja, Federer etc.

dnalves, there is no such word as 'fan', it's an abbreviation of fanatic, so if you call yourself a fan, you ARE a fanatic.

Nice posts luckystar,I think Rafa's level was not so far off his level in 2010. I don't see any movement problems for him in all his matches against Djoker.

But really, in long rallies, the problem for Rafa is he has a looping forehand and it's a liability against Djoker's BH. Just as it is for Fed, his one-hander is Rafa's forehand's food.

What Rafa can do is to flatten his forehand CC, it'll come at a cost of more unforced errors. Personally I don't see much that Rafa can improve in his game.

I think his serve now is as good as it gets (he was serving 95% in the 1st set against Djoker but still lost the set) A slice serve is a slice serve, Rafa can vary his placements whateva but the speed of his serve won't trouble Djoker.

What Rafa can do is vary his slices.

Mentally, I think Rafa is not too much affected by Djoker but the problem is Djoker forces Rafa out of his comfort zone so Rafa went to a crazy level in set 3 in the final but cum set 4, his over-aggression led to too many UE.

And yes Djoker and Rafa can get injured more easily playing this style of physical tennis but it's better to get injured and win Slams than to save your legs and not win Slams.

I don't think Rafa can beat Fed running less and defending less. So why change a winning game? Even if he gets injured with modern treatments, damage can be minimalized.

Sos, I'm about to watch the WTF SF between Murray and Rafa just to verify what you claim. Actually, I might not be able to watch it until tomorrow.

dnalves - since when did I say that Rafa is perfect? Again you as a delusional person, keeps imagining things. Just ask the regular posters here, when did I say that Rafa's game is perfect? In fact I pointed out what he needs to improve in his game. You failed again because you didnt read through the posts and once again proved your inability to engage in sensible and rational conversations or discussions. You simply called people names, just to irritate people and hope that we won't see your weakness in your arguments. Any proof of Rafa being a cheater? No proof? Well Fed admitted to gamesmanship in his match against Davy at the AO 2010 and yet you failed to accept it. When there's no proof, please be sensible enough not to accuse anyone of anything! You called Rafa a cheater, that's affirmative therefore please provide proof to support your case, if not you're a liar! I simply said Fed maybe called a cheater, ie depending on how we interpret gamesmenship, so that's non affirmative, depending on how we view it. Fed did employ gamesmenship, that's not an accusation as he admitted it,
so there shouldn't be any argument about it.

I'm pissed because of your false accusations, not because I don't trust Rafa. Please don't think so highly of yourself, that you know how I feel, sorry you're not qualified. You did suspect Rafa of doping, you mentioned in the other thread. I've asked Ricky to see to it there. Don't pretend that I accuse you of anything.

This is supposed to be a site for discussing tennis, please stop all these nonsensical accusations and talk about tennis.

you've got no luck then since nadline already snitched to cheryl about it. Although I didn't specifically say that nadal doped.

Again you bury yourself more and more each time you post. To say that a player needs to improve his game is not saying something negative.

Of course I have no proof of nadal doping. If any proof had surfaced he would already been penalized, I hope.
Of nadal cheating just pick one of the numerous times he says he is injured when in reality he's not.

Believe me I have no problem discussing things with other rational people, you just happen to not be one (at least your posts indicate that).

As I said in other posts you're blind when it comes to nadal and can't accept that your idol is a flawed person.

You know how nadal dealt with the players that beat him in his early years, he got more muscled and increased the speed of his serve and his strokes. There's never been a player so muscled and with so little injuries (yes because the majority of the injuries he claims are false). Maybe he is a superior human being?! Of course not, he finds ways, let's say, to get so buffed and stay healthy most of the time.

As for your claims that nadal will figure djokovic out and find a solution I beg to differ. But I guess only time will tell. After the US Open, should they play each other, we should have a healthy discussion about that.

Now go enjoy yourself, don't be so bitter and angry and said. Enjoy your life.

Sos, I'm about to watch the WTF SF between Murray and Rafa just to verify what you claim. Actually, I might not be able to watch it until tomorrow...."


Knock yourself out Nadline!
It's a great match and both Andy and Rafa played extremely well.
But know this,
Your opinion on the matter means less than nothing to me,
And dare I say most others on this site....

Why is it that everytime a fan sticks up for Rafa they are dismissed as fangirls, anyone would think that the other players don't have fangirls, or maybe they haven't.

Your opinion on the matter means less than nothing to me,
And dare I say most others on this site....

Sosueme , 7/16/11 7:28 PM


The evidence is to the contrary.

"But really, in long rallies, the problem for Rafa is he has a looping forehand and it's a liability against Djoker's BH.."

How high is the bounce at the US?
Its not excessive I think, and was perhaps the main reason it was the last of the Slams for Rafa to win, together with the speed of course.
I agree with Lucky, Nadals best bet is to flatten it out and take his chances as it won't just be Djoko-B that will eat up his looping forehands.
I agree also that Rafas slice shall be key for court positioning and his ROS shall have to be at it's best If he's going to defend his title.
As for delpo losing to Rafa at Wimbledon. I don't see it as a turning point at all, as it is delpos worst surface by a long shot, this particular fight shall be settled where it really begun,
In NY.

Why is it that everytime a fan sticks up for Rafa they are dismissed as fangirls, anyone would think that the other players don't have fangirls, or maybe they haven't.
nadline, 7/16/11 7:30 PM

ha!
I doubt Ivan lubicic has too many fan girls Nadline...
As to the other......... NO you are indeed tiresome, but your 'opinions' cannot be taken as more than
Hysterical outbursts by any reasonable person....

dnalves is again accusing Rafa of doping and Cheryl is yet to even notice his offense under another thread " Wimbledon final picks..."
This fellow will keep doing this and annoy me and other people who are interested in talking tennis. So, till this fellow is banned, which I am sure Cheryl might do sometime, if not now then maybe when he repeats his offense for the n-th time, till that time I will stay away.
There is not much fun in participation after haters like Sienna and dnalves have taken over this forum. They spout hate and nonsense distracting my attention from tennis and making me expend too much emotional energy in reading or replying.
They talk no tennis and seem immune to logic and scientific evidence.
Sienna annoys me by claiming she is talking logic and saying she is producing scientific evidence when actually she is just making claims based on imagination and zero logic and producing no evidence.
She has no clue what is logic or scientific evidence.
Like her claim of existence of a currency with unit of 60 cents which she says exists based on no evidence but insistence that it exists.
She has the gall to tell me I know nothing about currencies and she further annoys me by grandly ordering me to do research and find the currency! As if I will waste my time researching something based on her delusions.
For somebody like me trained in logic, even reading such rubbish is annoying and stressful and I have stopped reading her posts.
Now this dnalves, encouraged by his only receiving a warning the first time, no warning the second time despite nadline and me complaining yesterday, has now repeated the doping allegation again.
I am sure he will keep repeating this offense as he, like Sienna, has no use for logic or evidence and he is misusing this forum to vent his hatred.
numero too talks evil but in limited quantities and at least most of the time he does talk tennis. So I think he adds a little spice by his relatively controlled doses of hate and evil.
But dnalves crosses all the limits.

I think its wise that I stop wasting my time on some irrational people.

Torres - I think Rafa plays better on the hard court this year than last year, but I can't say the same for his clay court game. He was having problems throughout this clay season, losing many sets along the way, even having problems in the first round at RG, something unheard of, and he finally had to go to a fifth set for the first time at RG! It's obvious from the way he played that he's no where near his 2010 clay season. On grass I think he's still better last year as he's able to beat Sod and Murray who were playing very well last year at Wimbledon. Delpo wasn't moving well on grass and suffered a few bad falls at Wimbledon this year and he depended heavily on his serves to keep him in the match. Rafa's ROS this year left much to be desired and he wasted many break chances, in that Wimbledon final too.

What Rafa can do is to hit his forehand flat and more penetrating. He does have a flat forehand, just look at how he hits it during his AO 2004& 2005 matches against Hewitt. Those were 100+ mph forehand shots and gave Hewitt plenty of problems then. Also he should come more to the net instead of staying at the baseline and rally all day. He didn't come to the net that often during the clay season and during Wimbledon.

Rafa vs Fed, yes he needs to do lots of running as he's dealing with the master shot maker and so his retrieving and anticipating skills are called into play. Fed too needs to do lots of running when dealing with Rafa as Rafa can simply return many balls with interest. Murray too employ his great retrieving and anticipating skills when playing against Fed and he too has some success over Fed.

Hi holdserve it's good to see you too.

I never said nadal doped. You can read my posts if you want. So if I didn't do that I don't see why I should be banned.

So you're trained in logic, interesting. I myself have had some subjects regarding logic and can say that you and luckystar don't seem to understand that you might make a logic argument but if it is false then in the real world it has no validity. You live in some alternative world when it comes to discussing about nadal.

Now that I thought luckystar had finally stopped posting nonsense here you come.

Don't expend more emotional energy, it doesn't matter if you continue posting rubbish.

As for me crossing all the limits, maybe in your made up world but in the real world who crosses the limits are you and luckystar. You're bringing this site down.

Nadal cheats so what, live with it, it's not your fault, it certainly isn't mine. He manages to win a lot of tournaments good for him.

P.S.:"...Sienna and dnalves have taken over this forum...". I haven't counted the posts but it seems to me that you, nadline and luckystar have the majority of the posts.

I doubt Ivan lubicic has too many fan girls Nadline...
Sosueme , 7/16/11 8:05 PM


So what is it about Rafa that attracts fangirls? I'm curious.

Ha im sure all knowledgeable people here can see who's talking nonsense here! It makes me laugh when I read a post of dnalves! My goodness, how old are you dnalves? Please don't make a fool of yourself here! I'm sure many of us here are LOAO and ROFL after reading your latest post! You can't even substantiate your assumptions or your accusations with proof and yet you insist that Rafa is cheating! How do you know that Rafa is not injured? Did you examine him? Shoukd we listen to his doctors or listen to you? You don't even know what's proof and what's not and yet still has the cheek to call others irrational! Please stop arguing for the sake of arguing, for the more you argue, the more you make a laughing stock of yourself. Now go back to sleep will you, stop disturbing others while they're discussing about tennis.

"So what is it about Rafa that attracts fangirls? I'm curious.."

Well, may I instruct you to take your ass to the nearest mirror Nadline,
Were I'm sure the person you'll see shall be able to answer that particular 
Question for you.....
He doesn't just attract 'fangirls' , he attracts many real tennis fans as well,
And the difference between the 2 Nadline my sweet is crystal clear,
Including on this site.....

I bet the nadal fans are laughing just so they don't cry. I thought you said you were pissed now you're laughing, are you a bipolar psycho?

It seems to me that you've run out of preposterous ideas and now you want me to stop posting. Is it maybe because I piss you off? Or perhaps you just don't like having a laugh?

When you want to discuss something seriously then by all means I'm available.

Sos, you got me in stitiches. If I knew the answer to that I wouldn't be asking you, would I?

dnalves - are you capable of any serious, logical and sensible discussion? I seriously doubt so, based on your childish reactions here. You argue for the sake of arguing. I laugh at the nonsensical nature of your posts, and for humanity reason, hope you save yourself from further embarrassment. If not I wonder how are you going to post here without having people here laughing at you once they see your name! If you choose to carry on this way, it's up to you and it's fine with me. Carry on, embarrass yourself! May someone from above help you, my dear fellow human being!

luckystar you take this posts too seriously. Do you have a life besides your nadal fanatism.

I merely like to mess with people like you, because you always like to have the last word (now that is really childish and imature). Do you think I care what you think, and who is acting righteous now. You think you speak for everyone (for the nadal obssesed fanatics maybe)?

Since you just can't help to reply my posts I'll have a laugh at your posts and you will be pissed and laugh, something like that.

On a lighter note,
"So what is it about Rafa that attracts fangirls? I'm curious.."
It mustn't be the hair, unless you like bald people.

It mustn't be the hair, unless you like bald people.

dnalves , 7/16/11 9:22 PM


Yes some people like 'bald' people with a full head of hair. do some of you know the meaning of bald?

nadline I was joking. Sigh...

I happen to like tennis and talk tennis, not a fanatic like yourself. I do hope you can stop embarrassing yourself. I like some other players too: Cilic, Davydenko, Simon, Nole, Murray, Dolgo, quite a few of them, and Davy is bald! On a serious note, if I can talk serious with you, do go and read some of my earlier posts above and you'll find that you've wrongly accused me of being a Rafa fanatic, some of the posters here can vouch for me. I'm talking about Rafa's tennis all along, until some of you talking about Rafa and his mtos, so I joined in and mentioned that Rafa did not take MTOs even if he's losing some important matches in slams, and then all these started. Please count me out from all these in future, as I'm only interested in talking about tennis, and not only about Rafa's tennis but also about tennis of other players. It's just that my other favorite players are not doing much now, esp poor Cilic, whose tennis has gone from good to bad, and bad to worse and there's no stopping it.

" do go and read some of my earlier posts above and you'll find that you've wrongly accused me of being a Rafa fanatic, some of the posters here can vouch for me...."

I can vouch for you 100% on that, luckystar Darling..
Its Saturday night folks, so it's time to go out!
Later!

I am completely lost... have no strength reading all this flaming... discussion level dropped severely, which means most of you don't have smarter things to do. So can someone help me figure out who is he and who is she... I've lost track on gender as well as fan they are supporting...

I know nadline, luckystar, holdserve and nativeNY are Rafa fans

dnalves, torres9 are Federer fans

deuce is Murray fan

I am Novak fan (and I am he), and i know mriiidula is....

But I keep mixing everyone who begins on s "Sosueme, Sienna, Shireling, samparalica, stu"...

torres and deuce - I have to say that I can see areas for improvement in Rafa's game, so I think he still can improve, provided of course Rafa thinks the same. Other than his ROS, BHDTL shots, his flat forehand, he can also improve his S&V skill, improves the delivery of his serves, both first and second; improves his slices; improves his backhand and forehand on both topspin and flat shots, even add in a SHBH, like what Tsonga did. Learn to take the ball early, and speed up on his serving time like Fed did and rush his opponents. There are just simply too many things that Rafa can improve on or add to his game, how can we say that he can't improve anymore? He's simply not perfect therefore there's room for further improvements!

LOL this dnalves character is not only a Fed tard but also a big liar. Pretending that poor little dnalves has been wrongly accused. Your doping accusation against Rafa in the other thread is clear enough so don't try to deny it. Wow it gets more interesting by the each post. And doesn't even know the difference between fan and fanatic. Go do some research!

Fair fans don't make baseless accusations about players doping and cheating then go aroung screaming "you're angry because you know I'm right" lol. That's kindergaten stuff mate. Grow up and maybe one day you'll realize Fed - like everyone else on earth - isn't perfect. What a pathetic little liar. But I should have realised you're a liar when you accused Rafa of doping to begin with.

That's why you keep coming back to defend yourself. Because you know we're right and you know you're a liar. Get it?

lucky, do agree with you that there are areas Rafa can improve but I'm sure Nole fans can also argue there are areas where he too can improve and Andy needs to do something about that forehand which breaks down under pressure and me oh my that second serve....! All great players are trying to get better all the time, within the limits of their own game, of course.
One of the great conundrums of the modern game for me is how, by and large Fed hasn't figured out how to protect his backhand from Rafa's forehand.

Yes deuce, Fed's problem with Rafa is a puzzle. Complacency? Stubborness?

Now concerning Rafa and his improvements, of course other players are also improving. The key is since he's already ahead of others, as long as he keeps improving, he should be able to stay ahead of the pack, until such time when he can't improve anymore, which I think is not anytime soon. The problem with Rafa this year, or rather end of last year, was that he did not have his usual off time to work on his game. His charity exhos had already taken up some of his off time plus some other sponsorship commitments. He mentioned that he had only one day rest before starting to prepare for the next season, which is 2011. His lack of rest might have affected his body immunity system and he caught a virus in Doha early this year. All these affected his fitness and his game. While others were busy working on their games to catch up with him, he was busy recovering. I feel that had he continued with his form of 2010, even the improved Nole, while able to close the gap on Rafa, won't be able to beat him so many times in a row. Nole's rise has coincided with Rafa's drop in form, it's just like in 2008, Rafa siezed the opportunity when his own game and form was on the rise and Fed's was down.
Going forward, I think Rafa still can improve on his game. I'm watching Rafa's match against Hewitt now, that 2004 AO match. I noticed that Rafa was playing the 'proper' hard court match, where he stood so close to the baseline the whole match. His forehand was awesome even then, and it's alot flatter than it is now, and his FHDTL shot was firing so well and it's a flat shot, not the loopy topspin one he has now. He served alot quicker too, probably not thinking too much about placement, and not so much tucking at his shorts, tucking at his hair and even not so much grunting. His face of course looked younger then, at age 17, but Rafa still looks the same now, not much aging, from 2004 to 2011! I wonder since when Rafa develops all this 'OCDs' and slowed down his serving. I'm sure back then in 2004, Rafa hardly got any time violation warnings! So Rafa needs to back and watch how he played back then on the hard courts, standing and playing close to the baseline, hit his powerful forehand deep and flat and hit more of it DTL, serve a bit quicker and now with improved placement. I hope he remembers how to play like that and of course add on whatever improvements he had already made to his game.

One of the great conundrums of the modern game for me is how, by and large Fed hasn't figured out how to protect his backhand from Rafa's forehand.

deuce , 7/17/11 7:40 AM


Actually, I noticed at RG that Federer's solution to this problem was to run around the ball and hit a forehand. That worked for a while but he couldn't keep it going because it's not his style, and once Rafa worked it out he was ready for the ball coming back.

Just to go back to a point Nadline made a while ago, I just don't see how anyone can genuinely think Rafa never loses unless theres some other reason like injury, or loss of confidence etc, even if these things accounted for some of his losses these things are still part of tennis, and if you take to the court excuses go out of the window, as you can't be that bad if you can take part in a proffesional tennis match.
Also can we stop talking about what Rafa needs to improve? After 10 slams and more masters series then anyone else im sure he has a better idea of what to do then any of us armchair viewers do!
Also its very likely Rafa has cheated in his career, no one is above that, these guys will do anything to win. Heck hes even admitted to it, like asking his team where to serve to Nole when serving for the match in the us open final for example, and he regularly goes over the allowed time when serving, thats also cheating.

rbenett- so what are we allowed to talk about? How good looking a player is? How beautiful his girlfriend looks?? If we are not allowed to talk about tennis, and areas we hope the players can improve, then please kindly advise what we are supposed to talk about!

Why do you only single out Rafa? What about the rest of the field , Fed included? We have already stopped the arguments on this topic, why still deal on it now, you want to start another round of these arguemnts? So this is what we are supposed to discuss, instead of discussing about the players' tennis? Is Tennis Talk for such a purpose?

Rbennet like Dnalves is also a moron sad to say. If the umpire doesn't call Rafa between points, whose fault is it? If it's cheating, he would have been fined many times like those caaught for doping and banned. Nole also bounces the ball alot during points. Is that cheating or is it only cheatign when a certain player names Rafa does it?

It's clear these few Fed retards are just so jealous and bitter towards Rafa for what rafa has done to Fed all these years. Again...hilarious. These oathetic fans must themselves be on crack that's why they judge Rafa by their own low standards!

lucky, really, really interesting what u say about Rafa in 2004, certainly he seems to have been playing in a more uninhibited way. I wonder when all the tics set in and why?
I always thought he had Fed in his sights and these adjustments to his game had a lot to do with it. I know he's just won RG again but I'm also wondering if in making himself a better hard court player and a much better grass court player, he's lost a bit of edge to his clay court game?

yes, nadline I noticed that about Fed too, but running around your backhand all the time isn't much of a solution is it? Cos as you say, he couldn't keep that up for 3 hours and then it exposes you in other areas.

Haha yes im really jealous and bitter thats exactly whats going on, and Im a moron as well as I don't agree with you guys on everything, so that automatically means im a moron of course!
First of all, the going over time thing, yes it is cheating, whether or not the umpires call it, and if they do call it, Rafa acts like hes being really hard done by, but hes going over the time limit, as was Del Potro in their wimbledon match, so both should get into trouble. Noles ball bouncing is not cheating obviously, but if he goes over the time limit then yes that would be cheating.
Next point, Like I said these guys will do anything to win, Federer in his match against Davydenko in the australian open 2010 quarter final, took a bathroom break as a tactic to gather himself, he admitted to it, thats also cheating, happy now?
And you can talk about what you like, but I've read so many points about how Rafa needs to improve but hes proven himself time and time again is all im saying. Its strange how you think im jealous of Rafa yet im praising him for his Grand Slam and Master series count, you lot read what you want to read don't you?

deuce - yes I believe by improving his hard court and grass court game, Rafa has given up some of his edge on the clay court. However, he's still good enough to beat all of the players except maybe Nole. In fact I feel that going forward, his matches with Nole, Murray and Delpo will always be hard fought ones, regardless of surfaces. I believe Rafa has reached his peak during 2008-2010 and is now slowly coming down from his peak, he's still in his prime of course. Nole, Murray and Delpo may peak now and the next two years, and that may be why Rafa is now having a hard time dealing with them, though that does not mean that he can't beat them now, as Rafa is alot more experienced and has a good problem solving tennis brain.

I feel that Rafa is also running around his backhand to hit his DTL forehand, as it seems he can't rely on his DTL backhand, which may explain why he always hit his backhand CC. In that 2004 AO match against Hewitt, I noticed Rafa hitting his backhand DTL shots on a few occasions and it seemed OK then, though his habit was still running around his backhand to hit his DTL forehand. Now it was OK against any opponent until now, when he faced an opponent like Nole, who is as quick as him around the court and can attack effectively from both wings. Nole will make Rafa runs around his backhand more often and so opens up his forehand corner and Nole will use his CC backhand to attack Rafa's forehand. Rafa would have to run like crazy to cover both corners and that's why he's always at a disadvantage. Rafa has a tendency to camp at his backhand corner and this is why players like Nole, Delpo, Sod are so good at exploiting his forehand open court.

I prefer Murray's court positioning, he's always around the centre of the baseline and can thus cover both forehand and backhand corners more effectively. If Rafa has a more reliable backhand, he won't need to camp at his backhand corner so often and can take a position like Murray's and that may make life easier for himself. Looks like it is easier said than done, as I don't see any improvement from 2004 to 2011, unlikely that he'll change anytime soon.

hey jean mate.

Didn't know you, but reading your posts I get a good idea, you're an obssesed nadal fan. Not only that but you cross the line by attacking the posters when they have said nothing about you.

So you say if the person who is supposed to apply the law doesn't do it then even if the law is broken there's nothing to do about it.

Your life must be pretty sad for you to have the time to go through all this posts. Maybe you're venting your personal frustations here. Go get a girlfriend/boyfriend and a life when you're the way.

Like I said above, and you must've read it, I'm not a bitter fan, federer is the GOAT, all he wins from now on is just icing on the cake.

The bouncing of the ball by djokovic, when it exceeds the time limit between points is also cheating. But compared to what nadal does it seems like a drop in the ocean.

I detect some malice in your posts, your life must really suck. But mate cheer up, nadal is the best clay player ever, you don't have to vent your frustations of the 5 straight beatings djokovic has inflicted on nadal towards us.

P.S:Mate, I've never said federer was perfect, in fact I said that federer is dominated by nadal on clay and I say that he has some sort of mental issue when facing nadal. I have no problem saying negative stuff about roger because he is not perfect. And if you say you've read the posts then you should read them carefully, and not come with childish accusations. You are the one who seeems to think that nadal is perfect. An in case you didn't read this post I'll paste it here just so you know why this discussion started:

"What people refuse to accept is that Rafa plays sublime tennis 95% of the time so when he loses, it must be for some other reason not related to his tennis, that has to be the case. That's not rocket science, it just stands to reason.", by nadline.

Now if you don't want to get upset I suggest you go play with your barbies/legos.

Stay well mate.

Sorry luckystar didn't mean to start another round of these worthless posts but I got to defend myself against this childish and insulting types of posts.

".... but I'm sure Nole fans can also argue there are areas where he too can improve and Andy needs to do something about that forehand which breaks down under pressure and me oh my that second serve....! 
One of the great conundrums of the modern game for me is how, by and large Fed hasn't figured out how to protect his backhand from Rafa's forehand..."

He couldn't protect his backhand due to the incredible spin from the Nadal 
Forehand, a single BH was just not going to cut it, he needed to evolve into a DBH like the other 2.
Maybe it would have affected to much of the rest of the game, or he really is too arrogant for his own good. I suppose this is the conundrum your referring to Deucey...
As for Murray's improvements with the serve and forehand, we are really not talking about improving on something that was already great (which is Nadal's predicament) we're talking about firstly getting it up to an acceptable standard!
There's some real problems there!
This is why, ironically, I think Andy will seriously dominate at some point in the next few years because even without these necessary basic improvements he's STILLa great player (getting now to every slam semi at least) and certainly basic improvements on serve and forehand are almost inevitable aspect of a players in the top 100's game.
Cahill's a serve specialist, so let's see if he solves the issues there (although I also think it's partially mental).
I also think he needs to take the ball on the rise more often like Novak does and, Lucky, I also think Andy should evolve his game ( rather than 'change' it) towards a more aggressive all court game....
I also predict this where he'll be 18 mths from now....

Murray has all the shots to win GS, although his FH could improve a bit more.
His problem, in my opinion, is his tactics during the matches, he should be more agressive and not wait for his opponent to make the error. Despite winning matches against lesser players being defensive against nadal, federer or djokovic he ahs to be more agressive ans take the initiative.
He also needs to improve his mental toughness. Murray tends to collapse mentally if things don't go his way.
For example, in Wimby in the second set against nadal he missed an easy shot that would have given him 2 BP, after that his level of play dropped drastically.

If or when murray wins his first GS the next ones should be easier for him because his confidence will be high and he won't doubt himself.

"He also needs to improve his mental toughness. Murray tends to collapse mentally if things don't go his way..."

Agreed Dnalves, there ARE some quite serious issues with serve % ( his serve % is much lower than the other 3) and the forehand.
But this too is connected to his general mentality on court, which is too negative.
Mental Toughness?
It's not exactly about being a 'tough guy' in the traditional sense. 
It's more about being a 'positive guy' esp when things aren't going your way.
Which takes a lot of strength to do.
His game can also be negative as he's (as you say) too defensive sometimes, but there have been definite improvements in that area, albeit painfully slow.
The technical problems with his game, the passivity, the mental toughness could all be dealt with by having a generally more positive approach, because the skill and talent is very much there to anyone with eyes & a brain.
I dunno, maybe it's just the good old British mentality of being a 'heroic loser'.
Novak, Fed and Rafa certainly don't display this kind of behaviour.
Or maybe it's just the remnants of teen angst, either way he better snap out of it soon, because no ones going to hand him anything  & the clock is ticking......

Sohopefullysueme, yes re Fed, many players have a two handed and a one handed backhand eg darling Andy, so why not TMF?
Andy's second serve is c*** don't quite see how that's a "mental issue" unless u think he too, like Fed, is too stubborn to improve it? Also, why on earth doesn't he take a weeny bit off that first serve sometimes, just to get it in when it's not working so well? Again stubborness?
No, don't think it's "heroic loser" stuff, all coaches speak of his desire to win and his competitiveness. I think the negativity and being down on himself is the part of him that is a perfectionist who seems to mind about every point he plays, but can't seem to leave it and move on eg THAT blooming volley. This he needs to address. Reckon he's got 2 years so signing off "hopeful deuce."

Everyone seems to gang up against Rafa and his fans. No other player is called out for foul play except Rafa, and all his fans are said to be obsessed fangirls. People are just jealous of who Rafa is, that's all there is to it.

There are players with much bigger biceps than Rafa, Monfils for starters. Rafa only served up to 134 mph once and all the knives were out accusing him of all sorts. Even little Nico Almagro serves at that rate all the time. If Rafa takes too long between points and they don't take action then they must have their reason. Either he is not taking longer than allowed, or he is such an asset to tennis that they think it's not worth fussing about an arbitrary time set off the top of someone's head.

The reason the time limit was set was because the likes of McEnroe and Nastase used to deliberately waste time arguing with the umpire and interacting with the crowd etc., messing with their shoelaces and playing with the strings on their racquet just to annoy the other player. They have achieved their objective because those things don't happen anymore, that's why they don't bother about the odd 5 secs or so.

Yes Deucey, you're right!
Murray usually changes the pace of about every shot he plays on court (it's hard to discern on TV), sometimes subtly, extremely impressive!
So Why doesn't he do the same with his serve?
That's a tactical problem, but it may not be 'the' problem.
I think it could be mental because you usually serve and play better when you're more positive and or confident.
If you're neither, then it impacts your game and out come the UE's!
Like the wimby semi with Raffington.
I don't doubt his will to succeed or that he's a positive person in real life it's just when he steps on that court when the demons start to swirl around that I get worried.
But yes, a more relaxed approach to playing would allow him to play in a freer manner, and allow those autonomous (also known as the 'sub-conscious') parts of his game to take over.
So he needs to understand that being too hard on himself is counterproductive to his performance.
As it clearly is!
He won't need 2 years either Deuce, he's gonna bag one of the next 4....
At least!
He's almost ready, we just have to hang on in there bit more....

Sosueme, yay :)

He needs to adapt his tennis to his personality... He plays most boring, passive/reactive tennis on planet... and he has opposite personality, fun person full of life.

His counterattacking can be devastating, but he can't rely that opponent will give opportunity each time. He need to step on, be more aggressive, and to create and build points. He can't return to death, hoping that his junkballing and change of pace will make opponent make mistake, or hit easy ball, or simply loose patience...

His current game guarantee him results in 90%, but 10% will fail big time against players who can "survive" his game. I understand him that changing that game, stepping out from his comfort zone and making transition will result in period where he will less successful. But he has to find game that will be more aggressive, where he will be in charge, where he will build points. When he is the man to beat, and not man to survive he will send message that he is ready for top.

Also its very likely Rafa has cheated in his career, no one is above that, these guys will do anything to win. Heck hes even admitted to it, like asking his team where to serve to Nole when serving for the match in the us open final for example, and he regularly goes over the allowed time when serving, thats also cheating.

rbennett , 7/17/11 10:32 AM

Accusing Rafa of cheating is like nailing jelly onto a wall, it won't stick, because only jealous people put Rafa down.

"He needs to adapt his tennis to his personality... He plays most boring, passive/reactive tennis on planet... and he has opposite personality, fun person full of life...."

I understand what you're saying and have said similar things so I mostly agree with you, but really To me there is nothing boring about his tennis. I find it mesmerising but then I'm a fan.
If you find his tennis boring and reactive..don't watch it. Its as simple as that.
I don't think you do anyway because really now he's become (somewhat) more agressive & some of the most thrilling matches of this and last year were Murray's versus...whoever. I would also include the Novak /Andy Rome match in that.
When he gets the balance between defense and offense he's worth anybody's
Money. Djokovic I may add atg is also a counterpuncher by nature and I personally find him less creative than Andy, but that's just my opinion too & certainly I like to watch both of them.

Hahaha yes Nadline, Im jealous of Rafa, thats the only explanation for what I said, not just plain facts. Your obsessive nature towards this man is downright creepy I have to say.

About the time between serving points, his average in the match against Del Potro in wimbledon was 26 seconds, the limit is 25 I think? so that means Nadal was regularly exceeding the time limit, for me whats the point in having a time limit if players can exceed it? Making a player wait longer then you are allowed to is cheating, pure and simple, if you wanna excuse it then fair enough but fact is fact.

rbennett look up the meaning of cheating before talking nonsense. Also if somebody violates a rule, it is the discretion of the enforcing authority to impose penalty or not.
Taking more time between points is a violation of a rule, not cheating.
Going late to office is a violation of a rule, not cheating. Cheating involves fraud or trickery, get it? English is not my first language but I have to teach you,Sheesh!
Now boss is not bound to penalize you for coming late, he has the discretion to waive the penalty. The enforcing authority has the discretion to impose the penalty or not. Get it? Are you from Mars ?
Even a cop can be persuaded to waive a speeding ticket if you convince him of a good reason.
Stop your ridiculous rants and use some common sense. Since your knowledge of English is so bad, I recommend you re-enroll in school.
No school course unfortunately can do anything to improve your common sense. Maybe you should marry someone who has enough for two.

Fans of Andy are on even more of a roller coaster at the mo., because right now he is having a go at perfecting that transition from defence to attack. Of course it didn't pay off against Rafa at Wimbles but at least Andy had the courage to try and I'm sure he'll go on trying and improving and I'm also sure one of these days he'll get it just right....and then POW!.

@rbennett , 7/18/11 1:45 AM

Do you happen to know the average time Delpo took between points in the same match - 26 secs, the same as Rafa. It was shown on the screen during the match after Delpo protested to the umpire that he shouldn't have given Rafa a warning because Rafa was waiting for him to get ready. If Delpo didn't think he was being cheated, what's your case?

Just to prove my point, Delpo is known for being slow but no one ever goes on and on about that. Delpo took an MTO in the middle of Rafa's serve, not a whimper from anyone, but in the same match, Rafa is pilloried for taking an MTO before the start of the tie-break for an injury he sustained when he had set point, and that was called cheating.

My 'obsession' with Rafa is only matched by the hatred of him by Fedfans. If you call defending the truth an obsession, then yes I'm obsessed with that.

And how is taking more time between points cheating?
Cheating involves trickery or deceit.
Violating a red light is not cheating, overtaking from the wrong side is not cheating. These are all violations of rules.
Why do Fed fans insist taking more time between points is cheating? Because they hate Rafa so much.
If ATP had a rule about losers not crying at trophy ceremony. dear Fed would be a cheater.
If doing ballet on court is declared against the rules, Fed would be a cheater.
If a one-handed backhand is declared against the rules, Fed would be a cheater.
If talking to your opponent while he is readying himself to serve is against the rules, Fed is a cheater.
In other words according to haters, just making any rule can render anyone a cheater.
So I now make a rule that anyone whose user name begins with r and ends with t is in violation.
So according to rbennett's definition of cheating, he is now a cheater in my books.

Hahaha you guys are classic, some of the stuff you come out with, the way you react to any slightly bad comment against Rafa is again creepy, have you two got nothing better to do? Does it really matter what I say that much anyway?
Like this rant above me about if this happened it'd be cheating blah blah, thats just complete rubbish you're talking holdserve, Im on about an existing rule that exists for a reason, this crap about 'If Fed did this and that, he'd be a cheater' I mean do you hear yourself talk or do you drift in and out?
Then insulting my english and common sense, if I was talking up Rafa, Im sure my english and common sense would be perfectly acceptable to you.
Not everyone loves Rafa as much as you two do, in fact I bet barely anyone does, as the level you two reach is plainly obsessive, you defend him like hes your child or something.
The fact that Del Potro also took too long between points means he should be punished as well, I just don't see the point in there being a time limit if people regularly exceed it?
You know I just realised I said something slightly bad about Del potro, so I must be jealous of him, I mean theres no way I could say that and be a fan of him is there?

You are the one posting rubbish.
Do you know the meaning of cheating? Please check the dictionary.
According to your definition you would be a habitual cheater because there must be plenty of rules you would have broken in your life like going late to school, late to work, keeping your elbows on the table, returning library books late, the list of rule violations is endless.
All the rules are there for a purpose so you are a cheater. rbennett is a cheater as per his own definition.

It's not "cheating" but it is "gamesmanship" and, b4 u all jump on me from a gr8 height, the majority of players do it, even Fed!

So rbennett knew all along that Delpo also exceeds the time limit between points regularly, but there he was proclaiming that Rafa was cheating Delpo by taking the same time - give me strength!!! What blatant hypocrisy. So Delpo wasn't cheating Rafa with his MTO during Rafa's serve, but Rafa was cheating Delpo during his MTO.

What possible aim do these Rafa haters have for banging on and on about rules that even the authorities don't care about enough to discipline the players. As I said the object of the exercise in imposing the time limit is not because they thought there was any benefit in taking 26 instead of 25 secs between points, it was to stop players deliberating disrupting the game to upset their opponent or intimidate the umpire. They have achieved that objective, so mission accomplished.

Cheating is taking a toilet break just to disorientate your opponent when he is ahead and to avoid serving with the sun in your eyes. Federer's own admission.

Cheating is being given twice as much rest time as your opponent in a final.

Cheating is getting cupcake draw after cupcake draw to enable you to remain World No 1.

My Goodness, 363 posts and counting. We are in serious need for the top players to go back to the scene :)
... enough about Rafa cheating please! there's just no case for it. (sure, he's not perfect, so what?)

And rbennet and dnalves' obsession is making up lies about Rafa cheating and doping (dnaslves). You guys are funny, go find somethign better to do than come here and make up lies. We've already pointed to you that Fed actually cheated in his match against Davy yet you conveniently ignore it. Why? Because you know very well he cheated and you have no excuse for that because he even admitted it after the match to Jim Courier. Shameful. So it's not that you don't love Rafa and it's a simple matter of most peopel not loving him. It's just that you're obsessed with Fed and are bitter about Rafa's dominance over him that you now resort to making up lies and accusing him of taking dope. You guys probably are gang bullies in school. You know, cowards who gang up on smaller kids like a pack of stary dogs because you're so insecure and bitter about life.

Haha you guys needs to read my comments properly, before you bring stuff up.
Nadline-if you read an earlier comment of mine I brought up Federers toilet break against Davydenko, before you did, and yes that was cheating, so you and Jean are wrong saying I ignore that. The two other points are you being pedantic so no point responding to them.
And Im a gang bully in school Jean? Actually in school I got bullied and beaten up until i was 15, so yeah ta for that, anything else you want to say about my life that you have absolutely no idea about?
I also don't see how Im obsessed with Federer when I've mentioned him once and that was when I brought up him cheating, you guys talk about him more then me.
Luckystar-please stop saying these irrelevant random things about me cheating, Im talking about time wasting in proffesional tennis, I don't know what this thing about school rules is, but if you're having fun, then hey, knock yourself out!
You lot gang up on anyone that dares say anything negative about Nadal, and are guilty of these things that 'Federer' fans do, how about instead of attacking people you don't know on Forums for disagreeing with you, you try being introspective, see what you find.

rbennett, you may not be obsessed with Roger but you are certainly obsessed with Rafa in a cynical way. The only time you come on TT is to run Rafa down. I can't think of anything you've posted that is not negative about Rafa.

I won't be surprised of Rafa's team is not accused of fielding a Rafa look alike robot when he plays Roger.

Nadline, as flattering as it is that you remember my posts, usually I comment when something ridiculous is said (usually by you) and I feel the need to respond.
I also like how you've ignored my point about me mentioning Feds cheating earlier, instead of conceding that I wasn't being unfair to Rafa and brought up other players cheating as well.
And calling me obsessed with Rafa? Remember what I said about being introspective i.e looking inwards?

Luckystar-please stop saying these irrelevant random things about me cheating, Im talking about time wasting in proffesional tennis, I don't know what this thing about school rules is, but if you're having fun, then hey, knock yourself out!

rbennett , 7/18/11 2:24 PM


I should leave luckystar to defend herself but I think holdserve is the name you are looking for.

Yes I am blessed with a good memory. I remember what people sayeven years later. Congratulations for acknowledging that Fed is a cheat.

I meant to point out that the reason Rafans appear to gang up to defend him all the time is simply because he is constantly beeing maligned and accused of all sorts. No other player is targeted with abuse and innuendos as much as Rafa. I would go as far as to say Rafa is the only one who suffers such persecution.

" I would go as far as to say Rafa is the only one who suffers such persecution...."

Good grief Nadline!
Raffington is a tennis player, not the Baby Jesus!
And clearly you don't read these pages either as Federer is always being attacked on them, including by yourself.
Yes Rafa takes a bit too long between points it's against the rules and he shouldn't be allowed to do it. But Federers mind games and use of the media to get the edge sometimes is not too cool either methinks!
He did it to Andy at the AO and it worked like a charm.
Djoko-bunny also takes too long I think.
Although some players should maybe take a bit more time to gather themselves when their service % is too low (hello Mr Murray!).
When Andy Murray played an injured Simon @ Monte Carlo, he played an avalanche of drop shots, not very nice either!
My point?
None of the players are Angels, theyre there to WIN.
I wouldn't even blame Puss in Boots or djoko-b.
 I would blame the umpire and the tour for being too chicken shit to do their jobs properly.
Why don't we all just relax a bit and not get so incredibly defensive about these sorts of things because they ALL have their little ways to play the game & given the chance they usually will......

Oooer yeah I did mean Holdserve, oops.
And I have to agree with Sosuemes post to be honest, hes saying there same thing I've said, that these guys will do anything to win.
Anyway I've acknowledged that Federer is a cheat, will you do the same Rafa? Im pretty sure I know what your answer will be.
And if Rafa does get targeted as much as you say, then something must be wrong with his behaviour, people don't just make this stuff up.

And if you think gamesmanship is bad today,
Well, let's put it this way if Rafa was playing Lendl back
In the day. Lendl would have kicked over all of his bottles &
Called him a Spanish Strumpet!
And thats just in the first 5 minutes!

Seeing somebody with the stones to kick over those water bottles would be worth the price of admission. Lendl should become a coach or something. ;)

Sos, my response was to rbennett who suggested that Rafa's fans are always on the defensive and I was pointing out that it's because he is always being attacked.

rbennett, I don't have any anecdotal evidence of Rafa cheating, the ones you've cited I disagree with so unless you present me with other evidence I can't say that he does.

Basically, it's not easy to cheat in tennis and whilst I cited Federer's toilet break, that was only because some people wouldn't leace Rafa alone.

"Seeing somebody with the stones to kick over those water bottles would be worth the price of admission. Lendl should become a coach or something..."
numero, 7/18/11 4:19 PM

Oh he would have done it for sure (Connors too, no doubt, and a few others) Numero!
Maybe only once however as there might be a high price to pay. Ha-Ha.
Lendl apparently wants to start coaching, in fact he wanted to be Murray's coach a while back but it didn't happen as he wasn't prepared to travel enough.
All things considered, he might not have been a bad  choice......

rbennett, you have to acknowledge Fed is a cheater because he satisfies your definition of cheting, taking bathroom breaks et. But why should any of us accept Rafa is cheating? We go by dictionary definition not yours.
Now why do so many people attack Rafa? Because they are all Federer fans and can't stand Rafa who is obviously superior to their idol. Like the evil people nailed Jesus to the cross because they were evil, so also Rafa is accused of bad things because of the evil in Fed fans.

To corrorobate what holdserve said, swearing and smashing one's racquet or hitting a ball in anger are all code violations but they can hardly be called cheating because the other player is not affected by any of those.

Some people even claim that Federer lost the FO final this year because Rafa had his foot taped. How ridiculous is that?

Someone will soon claim that lining your water bottles up is cheating, or holding your racquet to come on court, or changing your shirt during the break.

and I'll add that us fans are more or less 'allowed' to talk about cheating but what happened with the media this year during Rafa Vs Delpo match was just disgusting - especially since (as nadline pointed out) they didn't use the same standards for both players.

Yeah remember the story of the wolf and the lamb? He wanted an excuse to eat the lamb and first accused it of dirtying his water. When it said, it was downstream of him, he said, the lamb had done it the last year. When the lamb said it hadn't been born the previous year, the Wolf said ok, it must have been your mother and then ate the lamb.
Any excuse, no matter how silly is enogh to justify attacks by Fed-wolves on Rafa-lamb.
Maybe Rafa is seen as Jesus by these Fed fans. Jesus is also the Lamb, right?

lamb is look like a Roger. wolves is look like a wolves. lol

Rafa took a toilet break after Andy won the first set at Wimbles. It's not cheating, it's called gamesmanship and the majority of players do it! Nobody is an angel, no, not even darling Andy, and they'd be pretty boring if they were.

So they can't even take a toilet break without it being called gamesmanship. What is it all coming to? Players being allowed to relieve themselves on court. Good grief.

Andy called the trainer after the first 3 games, then when the trainer turned up for the MTO he declined it. What was all that about?

What about Andy claiming to have ankle injury right up to the wire at Queens then turns up and plays doubles as well as singles never needing treatment once, and ended up winning the singles? If that had been Rafa he would have been accused of gamesmanship.

If it was that easy that after dropping a set all they need to do is take a toilet break and the match is yours, why aren't they doing it more? Are the players that stupid that they can't see the magic key to winning a match here?

sorry, Nadal is look like a wolves. lol

Is this foolish persons receiving Nadal's money? and Fanaticism, too much.


The Nadal is arrogant cheater. alwys fake of time-out. always fake take time. And always too annoying. etc.

This is famous in the world. Though I live in Asia. Story concerning Nadal. It always becomes this cheater story.

don't worry, fanatically blind Nadal fan, too. like you. lol

@Deucey

HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THE MUZZY BEAR ISN'T AN IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED ANGEL!!!
I'll be having words with you soon!
Still he's better behaved than most as the majority of his gamesmanship is sadly aimed @ himself, ha-ha...
As for Nadlines pathetic attempts to suggest that his ankle injury was a fraud or that turning DOWN an MTO at Wimby was a shady manoeuvre on his part.
Well, it only goes to show (as if we didn't know already) how irrational and hysterical she is....
No, I'm not going to lower myself to her level and get started on Rafa's relationship with M T O's, I could be here all day!
Sadly, It appears my words of wisdom have fallen on deaf ears......

Good article on whether Nadal can claim No 1 at end of 2011..Ofcourse looks highly unlikely

World No. 2 Rafael Nadal has an uphill battle to climb if he wants to regain the No. 1 ranking from Novak Djokovic by the end of the year. The ATP rankings system is complex, inundated with specific rules and penalties that at times make it hard to follow. But as we take a closer look at the numbers, we see that a lot of things have to go right for the Spaniard if he wishes to reclaim the No. 1 ranking again in 2011.

What Counts in the ?Best 18?

The four Grand Slams, the best eight out of nine Masters Series 1000 tournaments, the best four ATP World Tour 500 tournaments, and the two best ATP World Tour 250 or below (Challengers series) tournaments count in the Best 18. The top eight players who qualify for the Barclays World Tour Finals will add a 19th tournament to their results to determine the year-end rankings.

The Current Tally

As of July 11th, Djokovic has 13,155 ATP rankings points, which is 1,885 points more than Nadal, who has 11,270 ATP rankings points.


The Bad News for Nadal

The bad news for Nadal is that the two biggest tournaments remaining are the US Open, which Nadal won in 2010, and the World Tour Finals, where Nadal finished as the finalist. The 2010 US Open victory leaves Nadal with 2,000 points to defend, meaning that at best he can tread water by maintaining the 2,000 points in his total. Nadal also has 1,000 points to defend at the World Tour Finals, where the maximum amount of points attainable is 1,500 for an undefeated champion.

Djokovic, in comparison, finished as the 2010 US Open runner-up and finished as a semifinalist at the World Tour Finals. He earned 1,200 points from the US Open and 400 points from the World Tour Final.

At best, Nadal stands to gain a potential 500 points from these two tournaments, whereas Djokovic stands to gain a potential 1,900 points by winning. Essentially, Nadal has to do much more to defend these points and has much less potential ground to gain than does Djokovic.


Where it Can Go Either Way:

There are four more Masters 1000 Series Tournaments left in 2011: Montreal, Cincinnati, Shanghai, and Paris.

Nadal earned 360 points from Montreal, 180 points from Cincinnati, 90 points from Shanghai, and 0 points from Paris. Djokovic earned 360 points from Montreal, 180 points from Cincinnati, 360 points from Shanghai, and 90 points from Paris.

How Nadal and Djokovic fare in these four tournaments will go a long way in deciding who finishes as the world No. 1. They have approximately the same amount of points to defend, while there are over 3,000 points up for grabs.

Where Nadal Can Make Up Ground

In 2010, Nadal played in only two tournaments that counted toward the category of ?best of ATP World Tour 500 events,? leaving Nadal two short of the required four. Nadal was therefore penalized with two ?zero? penalties, causing the Spaniard to count two zero-point results toward his total.

Nadal won in Barcelona, but because of the penalties, the 500 points from Barcelona are not currently being counted toward his totals. On August 8th, one of the zero penalties will be dropped, meaning that Nadal will automatically have the Barcelona result counted.

Nadal has 500 points to defend from Tokyo, and he has one more slot remaining of the 500-point tournaments. This means that he can gain ground as long as he plays in two 500-level tournaments by the end of the year.

Djokovic, in comparison, must play in two more 500-level tournaments to avoid a ?zero? penalty. Djokovic has 800 points to defend and only stands to gain 200 points from the two tournaments.

What do you think?will Nadal reclaim the No. 1 ranking this year?

nadline, please read my post AGAIN! At the risk of further upsetting Sosueme I specifically said Andy is no "angel."
And the reason I mentioned Rafa's toilet break is because you go on and on ad nauseum about Roger's expedient toilet break. Words ARE beginning to fail me...and, b4 anyone else says anything,..... that's a first.

Hey deuce I think AndyM and Rafa's fans should stick together because the two superstars are so alike in their humility and graciousness.
Of course I have a vested interest in making the above proposal. I love both equally and feel torn when fan of one attacks the other.
But then I love both equally because both are such lovely human beings. So an alliance between the two fan groups is perfectly rational and sustainable.

Guys please stop fighting..Gosh so many posts have been traded back and forth..all for 4 people (Rafa, Fed, Djoko, AndyM) who dont even know any of us exist.Please think about it and stop fighting for Christs sake..We are wasting energy and its clear anyways no one will change their opinions either :-)
Why take the pain of defending so much then?

" So an alliance between the two fan groups is perfectly rational and sustainable..."

NOT with Nadline around it isn't......

@sanju,

I think we are suffering from

T.T.W

Ie Tennis Tournament Withdrawal!

Just look how animated Sos gets when gamesmanship is mentioned in connection with Andy, but it's OK for everyone to suggest that Rafa fakes injury, and if his fans defend him we are called obsessed.

Deuce accused Rafa od gamesmanship, I suppose that's par for the course, after all it's only Rafa, he's there fore everyone to have a shot at.

deuce and sosueme,

I've seen enough of nadline's "debates' to know that she is a brick wall and it's a waste of time trying to convince her of anything. After all she stated that of all his matches in his career the 17% he lost every time he was either injured, sick, sad, tired, etc. That clinched it for me.

Now holdserve has compared Rafa to Jesus. Those two are disciples of Rafa, not like Thomas or Judas either. In their minds he's perfect. No amount of logic, reasoning or common sense can penetrate a brick wall. I'm beginning to wonder if they aren't paid for their contributions to this forum because it's unheard of. Oh and I forgot they wanted to have a threesome with him for crying out loud!

Another thing,
Does anyone even have the slightest IDEA about what the f!?k Tennisba is going ON about!?!
I'm sorry, but that is a classic example of trolling if I've ever seen it......

In fact Sos, I did not say Murray was faking, I said that if Rafa had done the same thing he would have been accused of gamesmanship.

Now holdserve has compared Rafa to Jesus. Those two are disciples of Rafa, not like Thomas or Judas either. In their minds he's perfect. No amount of logic, reasoning or common sense can penetrate a brick wall. I'm beginning to wonder if they aren't paid for their contributions to this forum because it's unheard of. Oh and I forgot they wanted to have a threesome with him for crying out loud!

numero , 7/18/11 6:49 PM


Some people just take things far too seriously.

Nadline-its you guys saying strange ridiculous things, other people aren't the problem, how many arguments and disagreements have you and Holdserve had with other people on this website, doesn't that point to you two being the problem, and not others?
Holdserve-calling Federer fans evil!?! what the hell! What are you talking about!?
And I acknowledged Federer cheated because I am unlike you-a reasonable person...
Im glad to know Im not the only one who finds their posts ridiculous at least.

I think Djokovic will end the year as No1 but the fun and games will start with his defence of his mountain of points next year.

Yes we are all suffering from lack of tennis syndrome. I'm looking forward to seeing Rafa on court doing what his left arm is for.

The fact that we are always having to defend him is proof that allegations are always being made against him.

I promise not to defend Rafa so long as no one accuses him unfairly.

When Sos says: HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THE MUZZY BEAR ISN'T AN IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED ANGEL!!!

he is not called out as an obsessed fan everyone understands that it's not meant to be taken seriously, but if a Rafan had said that there would have been a barage of name calling.

I compared Fed fans to the evil people who crucified Jesus on trumped up charges or to the wolf who made up an excuse to eat the lamb.

"What about Andy claiming to have ankle injury right up to the wire at Queens then turns up and plays doubles as well as singles never needing treatment once..."

You suggested it Nadline, don't get me started!
You won't come out a winner.
I shall, however, take your lame attempt at backtracking as a retraction and mention it no more.
You know, you really should take a leaf out of Senor Puss and Boots manual of etiquette and good behaviour Nadline.
From all accounts, the Senor is a thoroughly decent, down to earth and unpretentious fellow who is gracious in defeat like few others in any walk of life despite being a frightening competitor and a legend.
I enjoy coming on this forum because I think, if you're a fan of tennis, it's a good place to be.
 Although clearly, some people have a little bit too much spare time on their hands!
And should perhaps consider getting a job or at least getting involved in charitable activities.
We can be a bit obsessed can't we? I personally blame it on all this bad blood between Roger and Rafa fans, it's not going anywhere soon, but it's a pity.........

Yep, thes worlds against Nadal and his Fans, thats exactly whats going on.
And Holdserve thats a ridiculous comparison, what the hells the matter with you two?

Yes Djoko has a mountain of points to defend next year, but we forget that maybe Nadal has amassed lot of points too in the past 7 months too..I think in the YTD ranking, he may not be more than 2000-2500 points behind Djoko..So Rafa will also have a lot to defend next year

I think this is the amongst the max Rafa has gained in the first 7 months of the year..Maybe only 2010 betters t by a slight slight margin as he had won 5 titles by this year (2 slams and 3 Masters), this year just 3 but he has made 8 finals this year, last year he had just 6 finals

So it wont be that easy for Rafa to overcome Djokovic next year as it sounds too..

Ha ha, rbennett-wolf, that suits you perfectly, you are always finding nonsensical excuses to attack Rafa-lamb whose only sin is that he proved he was better than your idol.

rbennett, do you suffer from delusions of grandeur that you think Fed fans comprise the world?

sanju, Nole can only lose points up to this time next year, Rafa only made the Qtrs in OZ so he can gain points there and he can also gain points if he wins any titles other than RG. Nole can still defend his titles, but it's a tall order.

Providing Rafa is fit and well next year with no bout of flu resulting in lingering effects going into the spring, he should be OK, so long as he's confident. He's also got his Olympic Singles Gold to retain.

I think Olympic gold points were dropped in 2009 itself right after he won it in 2008, I think it has no bearing next year. It will be up for grabs from ground zero for everyone

Please get Aug 08,2011 quick..July is boring as hell..Miss the excitement of March - July beg where it was tennis in and out

I know the that the points expired in 2009 but I still hope Rafa will retain the title, nothing to do with defending points.

Sanju, the fact that Rafa no longer has the points doesn't mean that he is not the reigning olympic singles champion.

Yeah Holdserve Im a 'wolf' and I think Fed Fans compromise the world, yep these are normal things to say.

rbennett, yeah you are like that wolf in that parable who only needs some excuse to attack the lamb.
But it is interesting that whereas I said Fed fans comprise the world, you said compromise the world. Maybe compromise is more accurate but did you really mean it? Or was it a Freudian slip?
Meaning of compromise:
to expose or make vulnerable to danger, suspicion, scandal, etc.; jeopardize:

sanju - Rafa has been defending that many points from beginning of the year till end of Wimbledon, year after year since 2007. His best years are 2008 and 2010, with about 8600 and 8200 points respectively. Even in 2009 where he missed Wimbledon, he amassed 6850 points, and had his best first half of the hard court season in his career todate, amazing 3570 hard court points. So his points of 7595 this year, while not his best is not his worst too. Can he defend all these points next year? In my opinion, the answer is yes. He may even gain points too, as he can do so in Doha, AO, IW, Miami, Madrid, Rome, Queens and Wimbledon. He may not win all those but some, and that may be enough for him to gain some points. Unless his body breakdown again, I don't see him stopping anytime soon. He's 25/26 next year, while not in his peak, he's still in his prime, and with experience and a good tennis brain, he's still able to compete against the likes of Nole, Murray and Delpo in their prime. Not forgetting Nole, Murray and Delpo have to compete among themselves too.

Concerning the year end no.1 this year, it means something to Rafa for sure, as he mentioned that what's important is to be year end no.1, and not just being no.1 during the year. I feel that Rafa may have a bit of regret in 2009 about what happened then that resulted in him not finishing the year as year end no.1. If he failed this year, that means he can't even be year end no.1 for two consecutive years, something that doesn't reflect well in his resume.

He shouldn't have lost his Wimbledon title, that loss made it even more difficult for him to get the year end no.1 ranking. He has himself to blame, for being unable to overcome fear and nerveousness. In the past, he's so fearless but it seems to me that as he grows older and has achieved so much, he has lost some of his edge as a fearless competitior but become more fearful of failure, of not living up to expectations. His pressers at RG this year were quite revealing, he felt pressurizured, unhappy of all the expectations about his winning FO for the sixth time to tie with Borg's record. He didn't start off this year well to be fair, and his game was suffering during the hard court season. It was because he's so good as a player that he's still able to reach all the finals. To me his clay court game suffered the most, as he couldn't even moved well on clay this year compared to last year. We all know movement is very important on clay, he seemed slow compared to Nole this year. Same with on grass, Nole was quicker than Rafa even on grass, something unheard of in the past, as Nole was known to slip and fall on grass more often than on any other surfaces.

Well I hope Rafa rest well, body, mind and soul and come back all guns blazing for the hard court season. There's still a slim chance for him to regain his no.1 ranking. Hopefully no more of illness or injury (what's with all these illnesses and injuries this year, first illness in Doha, then injury in AO, followed with right shoulder problem during match with Berdych in Miami, then fever in Rome, and lastly minor foot injury in Wimbledon). He has to take care od his body so that it won't breakdown again!

Two words for why Nole seems to have a lot more balance, agility and speed than the rest of tour - muscular endurance. He's just fitter and faster and that has a lot more to do with why he's beating Rafa than Rafa going off the boil. Remember, Nadal hasn't lost to anyone else this year - he's been beating Federer and Murray quite comprehensively.

Samprallica, Nole has improved his fitness this year, that's for sure. His balance and flexibility are there all along, so your point about him improving all these is not correct. What matters now is his improved fitness and hence his improved endurance.

If you think that Rafa was playing better this year than last year, then I suggest you go back and watch his matches last year and compare the difference. I'm not sure you can say that He beats Fed and Murray quite comprehensively this year. Against Fed, other than in Miami, his matches against Fed on clay were not easy ones, needed three sets at Madrid and four at RG. Last year he beats Fed in straights at Madrid, even though he needed to go to tiebreak in the second set. At RG this year, he had to beat Fed in tight sets, some 7-5,7-6 sets, didn't happen like that in the past. Against Murray, at MC, Murray ran him close and at Wimbledon, he finally lost a set to Murray, didn't happen in the past. I don't consider that being Rafa beating Fed and Murray quote comprehensively.

What I can say is, he did improve his hard court game but not his clay and grass court game. His clay court game had gone backwards as he's unable to move as well as before. His grass court game might have stalled this year too. So to me Nole's rise does coincide with Rafa's drop on his level. I'm not sure this Nole could beat Rafa five in a row had he met the Rafa of 2010. That Rafa was scarily good on clay esp at MC last year, more dominant than Nole was on hard court this year. He only lost two sets the whole clay season in four tournaments, vs Nole's four hard court tournaments, where he lost at least six sets along the way.

So Samprllica, while you rejoice in Nole's success this year, do note that Rafa is certainly not at his best this year, but it's enough to beat most people except Nole. Whether Rafa can regain his good level of his 2010 that's yet to be seen. Also there's Murray and Delpo reaching their peak soon, so even if Rafa can't become no.1 again, there's still competition out there for Nole and the rest. The coming hard court season may give us some indication how the future goes.

Luckystar-maybe it was a mistype? Im not gonna respond to the rest as god knows what you're on about.

Whoops Luckystar I meant to put Holdserve I read your name and typed it by accident sorry!

rbennett, it seems you are haivng difficulties distinguishing between luckystar and holdserve. Maybe Rafans are clones of each other, although you don't seem to mix me up with anyone else.

Haha yeah I am having a bit of trouble, its nothing to do with you lot being 'clones' of each other its just twice I've read Luckystars name then accidently wrote it down, duhh!

I think we have squeezed out from this thread as much as it could give, and more :)

Rbennet is such a lunatic clown. It's so obvious that you are bitter towards Rafa purely for what what he's done to Fed and what he's prevented Fed from achieving. I've seen your type before, lots of you around. And, no, I don't care to know anything about your life. Pathetic trolls don't interest me at all but thanks for asking.

haha aww Jean, and heres making think we could be friends...

*Me thinking, not making.

poor rbennett seems to have a problem with names ( luckystar, holdserve), words( comprise, compromise) etc. When he talks of Rafa, he maybe talking about Roger or Andy or whoever.
Anyway, I must admit, except for his anti-Rafa rants, assuming he means Rafa when he says Rafa, he seems a nice sort.

They were simply type errors Holdserve (see I get it right sometimes :P), kinda took me off guard you saying I seem a nice sort, but thank you! (If you were being sarcastic im gonna feel really silly now;) )

Get a ROOM you two!

rbennett: I was not being sarcastic; I meant it

Sosueme: I prefer rbennett to Sienna by light years

Oh Holdie,
How ROMANTIC!!!

I am not romantic, sorry to say. Just a good judge of people given a little time.

Well darling,
I'm going to chose NOT to believe you,
Ha-ha-ha...

Well, in that case I choose not to believe that you don't want to be locked up with Sienna. You did say you liked her somehow.

Get stuffed!

Ha-ha-ha...

Sosueme is right Holdserve...you wanna get a room? Then him and Sienna can join us later ;)

!?!
F@#king Gross!
This thread is now officially..
CLOSED!

Hahaha! Kidding man!

Oh my. Holdserve has gotten soft.

luckystar... The way Djoker is dealing with Rafa now is a very similiar way to how Davydenko and Nalbandian showed in brief stints on how to solve the NADAL problem.

So you have a guy who is fast and can return your shots like PONG. WHat do u do?
In the game of Pong u need to maneuver Pong left and right until there's an opening to penetrate the ball.

This can only be achieved when the player himself do not make UEs and keep returning Pong's ball. A double-BH like Nalby,Davydenko, Djoker which are all strong, consistent and penetrating is the key element in solving the NADAL problem.

Unfortunately, Fed does not have the patience and consistent BH to beat rafa consistently.

Rafa solved the FED's problem with great defence. Now how do u solve the DJOKO problem?

torres9:
1) hit through him, like what Delpo and Fed did at the FO; like what Bellucci did at Rome;
2) junkball him, like what Murray did at Rome and Tomic did at Wimbledon;
3) mix things up like coming in to the net as often as possible, like what Fed and Rafa did at IW, and what Ferrer did at Madrid.

Nole is not unbeatable. Note that Delpo caused him all sorts of trouble at the FO, it's just that Delpo himself is not known to have good stamina to go the distance. Bellucci is inexperienced and hence he lost while he has the upper hand during most part of the match; Fed is both good and experienced enough therefore he beats Nole.

Murray almost beat Nole at Rome with his junkballing style and had match point against Nole. I think the next time they meet, if Murray can play as well or even better, he won't let the opportunity slips away. Tomic is inexperienced, look for this guy to trouble many players in future, Nole included.

Now Fedal both have the game to deal with Nole. If Fed was not stubborn at IW, and played the way he played in the second and third sets right from the beginning, he might beat Nole, instead Fed chose to stay at the baseline for the whole of the first set to trade rallies with Nole and wasted whole lots of energy and lost the first set. Fed can deal with Nole, as proven at the FO. What he needs to do is to play wisely, to be Fed is still the better player.

Rafa too almost beat Nole in Miami. I've rewatched that match recently and Rafa was playing better than Nole in the third set. However Rafa's fitness failed him and he was outplayed in the third set tie break. Rafa has the right gameplan in that IW final too, especially the first set, again his serves failed him. In the Wimbledon final, Rafa started off well with his FHDTL firing well. Note that on clay and on grass this year, Rafa did not attack at the net as often as he did during the hard court season. He was basically playing a baseline game and I must say not many players can live with Nole at the baseline these days.

In conclusion, Fed and Rafa can both play at least two of the three ways I mentioned above to deal with Nole. It's a matter of coming to terms with Nole's play these days and getting used to it and playing the right way to deal with it. Murray can play his own style but with more zeal and determination. I'm very interested in seeing Delpo vs Nole again, as Delpo has the fire power to deal with Nole and hit through him, like he did against Fedal at USO 2009. We may see that during this hard court season, but Delpo needs to be fit and healthy again to begin with.

Hey xrf, I haven't become soft either in my heart or in my head!
rbennett is a nice sort except for Anti Rafa rant. Unfortunately, because of his anti Rafa rant, he continues to be my enemy.

luckystar, the 'almost beat' is something Fed also suffered but in the end the winner is still the winner. Fed almost beat Rafa i dunno how many times.

The way I see it, Rafa is having the same problem Fed had when he was in his prime: too much success. When you have too much success the hunger is a lil lower than when u are down and this teenie-weenie thing is very crucial.

Rafa spends more time being no.2 than no.1. He's so used to being a chaser. SO Djkojer on the other hand has the mental edge of having nothing-to-lose.

In Wimby final, Rafa was playing well but the crucial points were mostly won by Djok. Even the last game, Rafa was in it at at 30-30, engaged in a very long rally and in these situations against Fed, Rafa will just play it safe and look for a clear opening.

But against Djok, he made UE at this point and the rest is history.

I think it's good that we look into how Rafa can beat Nole but in the end, it's all about how Rafa can handle that BH.

The lady doth protest too much!

Rafa says, there isn't a specific 'anti-Djoko' plan, if I play against him again, it's going to be the other side of the quarter, it'll be great news because? that means I'm in another final. Today Djoko is the least of my thoughts. I'm thinking about playing golf for a good cause."

torres9, you may try hard to compare Fedal with Rafnole and make it as if is the same backhand problem. If you think Fedal is only Fed's backhand problem and if Rafnole is only Nole's backhand giving Rafa problem, then I think you're simplifying the problems.

Rafa against Fed - do note that Rafa has developed a good CC backhand and at the AO 2009, that's the weapon that he used to deal with Fed's forehand. On the hard court, aiming at Fed's backhand alone is not enough to beat him, I'm sure Murray and Nole also know that.

Rafa vs Nole - it's also not only Nole's backhand but also his forehand and his overall game. Note that Rafa has his DTL forehand too and if Nole's forehand is not up to the mark, he won't be able to deal with Rafa's forehand DTL. What Rafa lacks is a good backhand DTL shot. Note that he only has a good CC backhand and it has become so predictable that Nole has expected it most of the time. Please also note that after Rafa's 2009 knee injury, his CC backhand can no longer be the same or be as good as his CC backhand of AO 2009. That backhand hardly broke down and was really a lethal weapon, with those acute angles that Rafa
could create with his backhand back then. Now it breaks down when under pressure, which was how Nole beat him at IW this year, by attacking his backhand. Rafa also missed a few of his forehand shots too this Wimbledon, I don't want to say much about it as there are always reasons for those misses.

Fed vs Rafa on clay weren't close always, the closest Fed get to Rafa in a five sets match was that Rome 2006 final, where Fed even had match point. Do note too that back then Fed was in his prime but Rafa was only 19 going to 20 yo. Rafa and Fed would always have this problem, that is when Fed was in his prime, Rafa was not; when Rafa is in his prime now, Fed is not. Rafa did beat Fed four times in a row in 2006, in Fed's prime while Rafa hadn't reached his prime yet, at Dubai on the hard court when Rafa was just back from his foot injury, and thrice on clay at MC, Rome and RG. Fed got the better of Rafa that year at Wimbledon and TMC. Rafa also beat Fed five in a row in 2008 right up to early 2009 - at MC, Hamburg, RG, Wimbledon and finally at Melbourne's AO 2009. Rafa then was in his prime and Fed was off his prime or at the start of going off his prime.

Rafa/Nole - both are in their prime now but Rafa may be off his peak now and Nole at his peak. When you say that Rafa was close to beating Nole but still didn't beat him, please note the circumstances then, when Rafa was having problem with his serve, his backhand and his fitness. On clay, Nole did beat Rafa fairly easily this year but Nole was threatened by the likes of Ferrer, Murray and Bellucci. To me, that was because Rafa was playing differently on hard court and on clay, first thing I noticed, it's his court positioning, second, he played more a baseline game on clay, even on grass, rather than playing an all court game like he did on the hard courts. Just imagine Rafa playing like Ferrer did at Madrid against Nole, but with better weapons, I don't think Nole would have it easy.

Rafa vs Nole is at the beginning of a new rivalry, it's early days to say that Rafa can't deal with Nole. For one a good DTL backhand from Rafa would make it less predictable and keep Nole guessing. Rafa has to improve his backhand in general and also his ROS. I'm sure he and his camp will be busy thinking of a gameplan to deal with Nole, they know better than I do what Rafa can and cannot do to deal with Nole.

Wow, so there's four of you in "the room" now...those of us outside are getting very, very curious...and a teeny weeny bit envious.....;)
holdserve, rbennett is your "enemy" oh please, please tell me you're not serious.

Let's just hope all the room dosen't end up being a boxing ring, or maybe bullfighting.

With Sienna in the room, the other three will end up in a padded cell for loonies.
Hey, I have got an idea. Let us lock up rbennett with Sienna. That would serve him right for attacking Rafa.

Holdserve I refuse to be your enemy, take that!

Hooray for rbennett s/he has refused to pick up holdserve's gauntlet!
now rbennett please just say all players practise "gamesmanship" rather than practising "cheating" and then we can all put this thread to bed :)

ok, rbennett, I have to revise my statement. So, I am an enemy of all anti Rafa fans!

No. deuce, I will not accept that Rafa indulged in gamesmanship. Both he and AndyM are honest and transparent and play fair.
You can see Fed fans condemning Rafa for MTO in his match against Delpo, even though he screwed up his face in agony after hitting a winning DTLFH. He waited for the game to end before taking his MTO.
But Fed fans fail to mention Delpo's MTO which he took against the rules before the end of Rafa's service game. Rafa could have made Delpo default but the compassionate soul that he is, he did not do so. Delpo went of and took such a long break.
Rafa or somebody from his camp said that the foot injury caused Rafa to feel intense pain when hitting DTL FH. I think the injury did not affect his other shots.Probably this affected his chances against Djokovic in the final.

Put the thread to bed? Ahem, the four of them in the room can certainly do it.

Good pun, xrf! But this is a tennis site. So the only love permitted is in the tennis scoring system.

This thread will not be put to be until Montreal when we will have something constructive to talk about regarding Messrs Nadal, Djokovic, Federer and Murray.

You all know I meant 'put to bed'.

Rafa has foot tendinitis but it's almost recovered now. No wonder he seemed slow in his movement after that Delpo match and he missed some forehand shots too. Rafa's body is really fragile! He gets injured easily, since 2004 he's been injured almost every year - 2004 stressed fracture at ankle, miss FO and Wimbledon; 2005 foot injury and missed year end championship and AO 2006; 2007 knee tendinitis affected his movement at the USO; 2008 knee tendinitis again and missed TMC and DC final; 2009 the knee tendinitis getting worse and so missed Wimbledon; 2010 & 2011 knee and thigh injuries at AO and foot injury at Wimbledon 2011. He is such an injury prone sportsman and it's a miracle that he still can achieve so much in his career. Looks like he has to live with his injury problems for the rest of his career. Other players also have their own injury woes and they have not even achieved half of what Rafa has achieved, so Rafa is not doing badly for an injury prone player.

Xrf-you can join us if you like, for 40 love!

Or everybody could join us for love all!

luckystar, Rafa's DTL FH was definitely affected after that Delpo match.
It really annoys me when people unfairly accuse Rafa of cheating or gamesmanship.
At the FO, he said when talking about AndyM's ankle problem that Andy would be fine and he spoke from experience. I instantly felt he himself was carrying some injury which probably accounted for his looking strangely vulnerable on clay.
He had knee and later foot problems.
I think the greatness of a player lies in his rising above his injuries.
Fed was not challenged during his weak era so he could escape injury and exhaustion.
Last year after he lost to Berdych, he revealed his leg injury. Had he won W, would we have even known about the injury?

Rafa's enemies said his body would pack up by the age of 25 so why are they surprised that he gets frequent injuries.

It's easy to ....holdserve...after 40 love. I'm in.

Well, I was wondering if holdserve should change her name to "loveall" ?
What, what 40 in THAT room now?????

There are any number of matches which have been lost after somebody was serving for the match at 40-love.
So it is never easy to ...holdserve.

Touche.

luckystar 7/21/11 8:14 PM

Rafa gets injured more than other players because of his style of play.
He's a sort of wanna-be football player (he's said many times that if he hadn't got involved in tennis from early age he would have become a football (= soccer) player. We've all seen in videos what marvels he can do controlling the tennis ball with his feet) who turned out to be a competitive wonder at tennis, but his success didn't come easy, he's hard to work very hard to be where he is now. I do know that this is the case with anyone in order to - maybe - become great but in Rafa's case it became a way of life since childhood: willingly changing from his right hand to his left (can't say I know any other tennis player ever doing this, can you imagine what huge effort this must mean in terms of adaptation?), being put in the grindhouse against older boys and get used to being pumelled, joining the proffesional tour at an early age...
What I'm getting at is that what might be considered for any given player as a gruelling exertion for Rafa it's just a normal tennis match given that this is the way he's been made to play the game. This combined with the fact that he's never been the most naturally gifted player in the tour have rendered the many injuries he's sustained in his career.
But I don't think he's body is fragile, not at all. If anybody else tried to do half of what Rafa has done he would be retired by now, it's just crazy!

If this love-in goes on too long assuming it gets to 40-love as deuce suggests then how many new balls will they need.

shireling, I don't agree with you on a few points.

There are some players who are more prone to injuries than others, players like Tsonga, Monfils and Delpo. They don't play as much tennis as Rafa, yet they still get injured frequently. Rafa is injury prone and that's why he almost get injured every year due to the number of matches he played. Do note that he runs alot and hence his injuries are mostly related to his legs. His muscular built may have contributed to the injury problem.

I don't understand why you said that Rafa is not naturally talented. Please explain what you mean. To me it's precisely because Rafa is so naturally talented that he can figure out how to make full use of his own physical gift to generate that top spin of his. I don't think uncle Toni purposely taught him to hit that way, I believe he allowed Rafa the freedom to explore how he wanted to play. Rafa did find that his top spin forehand worked well on clay but later found that that's not so effective on hard and on grass. Given a choice, I think Toni would want Rafa to hit his forehand a bit flatter. I remember reading about Toni asking Rafa to hit his forehand like Fed's, in order for Rafa to do well on the hard courts. If Rafa was to go the academy way, he might not have found his topspin forehand and might end up hitting a flat forehand and lost his unique ability to dominate on clay for so long.

Rafa is a natural athelete, and he'll be good at any sport that he chooses. He started young in tennis and with all the running from the beginning, his legs would be the first to suffer. Once the injury developed, the body would not get back to it's original state and so for Rafa, his foot injury had led to his knees susceptible to injuries.

I don't think Rafa is any less talented than the other top four guys. The fact that he can explore his way to dominate on clay, and adapt his game to win on grass and hard courts despite not learning it the academy way, speaks volume to his ability to learn, to figure things out and to adapt. Had he being to Barcelona and attend the tennis academy there, I'm sure he'll be an outstanding player too, something like Nole or Murray or even Fed, but may not dominate like he does now on clay. Well that's just my guess.

well luckystar,

I don't think we disagree entirely.
I wanted to express that Rafa's body isn't prone to injury due to his body being fragile and you do agree by stating that he has a muscular build.
It is true what you say though about the number of matches, only Djoko had played more matches than him this year (or maybe not even). It is also true that other players do get many more injuries than him without playing as many matches.
All I'm saying is that if Rafa were for forbidding to himself by playing more aggressive he would save himself a lot of woes.. but this is a constant personal battle for him since by instinct he tends to stay behind the baseline.
About the talent thing... I didn't say he doesn't have talent, of course he does!
But I have a feeling that his best shines the brighter when he counter-attacks, i.e: when he's already in a forced position. His style is to do things the hard way.. how many times have we seen him retrieving nearly-impossible balls from way outside the court?
It is my opinion that Fed, for example, is more telented in shot making when he's 'in the zone' than Rafa (I know I'll neve hear the end of it...)
About the top-spin, it is a good point you make. I suppose this shows Rafa's spirit and style - he wants to come up with his own killer style but at the expense of physical exertion.. no wonder he groans so with every shot :P

Nadline, more accurately it is deuce - in singles matches- and the requirement of two consecutive points thereafter to win the game which theoretically could make the game go on forever. I don't have the stats. But which is the longest game in tennis history and how many new balls did they require? In fact, do the rules permit change of balls i.e. new balls during a game ? What happens if the ball gets broken?
ITF rules:
Ball changes, if any, can be made either:
i. After an agreed odd number of games, in which case, the first ball change in the match shall take place two games earlier than for the rest of the match, to make allowance for the warm-up. A tie-break game counts as one game for the ball change. A ball change shall not take place at the beginning of a tie-break game. In this case, the ball change shall be delayed until the beginning of the second game of the next set; or
ii. At the beginning of a set

If a ball gets broken during play, the point shall be replayed.

Case 1: If a ball is soft at the end of a point, should the point be replayed?
Decision: If the ball is soft, not broken, the point shall not be replayed.

holdserve, you totally missed my tennis pun with 'new balls'. It was just a joke as a follow up to deuce's post shown below:

Well, I was wondering if holdserve should change her name to "loveall" ?
What, what 40 in THAT room now?????

deuce , 7/22/11 8:06 AM


I don't want to be too explicit about it.

shireling - first when I said that Rafa's body is fragile, I didn't mean that he was born with a fragile body, but rather all those earlier injuries had cumulatively made his body fragile, definitely more fragile now than he first started out. Though others also sufffered some injuries, I don't think I can call Fed's body fragile, for example.

You mentioned about Rafa's grinding ways, but that's true about almost all Spaniards who grew up on clay. If Rafa was brought up in the United States, I don't think he'll grow up playing this grinding way. Seriously how many true clay courters don't play a counter punching style? They were taught point construction, and rely on that rather than relying on serves. No doubt Fed woad that he was also brought up on clay, however he obviously chose to play like Sampras and Laver, ie to play attacking tennis, maybe that's why he concentrated on his serves and his shot making. Rafa and Fed took different routes in their career, one concentrated on clay and played clay court tennis; the other concentrated on quicker surfaces and that's why even without Rafa, Fed did better on grass and hard courts than on clay. Remember, Fed lost in the third round of FO in 2004, and he had never won in MC or Rome even before Rafa came along.

As I've mentioned, Rafa hits top spin forehands because he figured out he can do well hitting that way on clay. He adopted a flatter forehand later on for hard and grass courts as he found his topspin forehand not being too effective on these two surfaces. Rafa does not have any shoulder problem, that means he is comfortable hitting his topspin forehand all along and I don't think that because he hits that way, he injured his legs more often than others. Simon, Ferrer, Tsonga and Monfils don't hit their forehands that way, yet they all have knee issues!

Rafa's body is built that way that he's strong enough to hit his shots that way, just like Nole's body is built with so much flexibility that he can even slide on hard courts and on grass without injuring his ankles. All these players having knee issues are mainly because of too much running, especially on the hard courts. People may say that Rafa has flawed technique but that works well with Rafa and I must say it may not work on others. Does Rafa have the shotmaking abilities of Fed, well he's always improving, only time will tell whether Rafa can reach Fed'a level. To me, I think he can. Rafa has very good racket control, he's using a more loosely strung strings than the other top guys, yet he's good enough to feel the ball and controls his racket to hit those deft touches at the net. He certainly has deft touches at the net despite not being brought up playing the S&V game.

nadline, must be a British thing, because I sure got it...;)
Shireling, u will be ex-communicated for sure...

Nadline what makes you think I missed the pun? If you read the ITF rules keeping the pun in mind, you can laugh yourself sick. In case deuce and Nadline missed it, there was also a pun on deuce.

I get it now, holdserve. If we are not careful we'll all be banned from TT.

I treated myself to the USO final 2010 today and I have NEVER seen Rafa play better, probably only against Nando in the SF in AO. That was a masterpiece. If Rafa can play like that all the time, I don't care which surface it is, he will be hard to beat by anyone.

The 2008 Wim final against Roger was great because it went to 5 sets and there was a surprise element towards the end in the tie-break, but the USO 2010 final and the AO 2009 SF against Nando were better IMO for quality.

Hey nadline, we don't have to worry about being banned. All the moderators seem to be vacationing somewhere.
Remember dnalves and his doping allegations? You and I complained repeatedly here? Nothing happened. deuce suggested I email. I did that only to get an out of office message till 8th August but the message kindly advised me that if urgent, I could send it to another address. Sent it there but it too bounced with another out of office message. So I gave up ( at least temporarily).
But what this means is that there is no moderation till 8th August.

holdserve, I hope the culprits don't capitalize on the lack of moderation and get in as much insults about Rafa as they can.

We all seem to be at a loose end. Isn't it funny that whilst the star players are switching off and having a well earned rest their fans are pining for them to return. It's alright for us just sitting in our armchairs willing them on and wanting it for 365 days a year.

Re: Rafa's USO 2010, yup it was pretty impressive. I think Rafa should wear black clothes. It made him look like the black ninja in 2010 USO.

Wasn't there some moron here who was insisting that Rafa won 2010 USO because he had a weak (cupcake) draw?
I am half sure Fed chickened out in the semis because he did not want to meet the deadly black ninja in the final and get the kind of thrashing he had received at the French Open 2008.

or to carry on the childish banter
Fed chickened out ( Sienna claimed he was a chicken, right?),
Because he had no balls to face the black ninja.

@ holdserve.

That 'moron' you were referring to was ME dear.....
Although to be accurate, what I meant was that he capitalised on a relatively the easy run that opened up for him.

What on earth possessed you to make such a moronic remark, Sosueme?
Besides I thought making anti-Rafa comments was the prerogative of Fed fans and lately Djoko fans (mainly because for strategic reasons, the Fed fans are pretending to be Nole fans).

Possessed Holdie?
Well, I didn't say it to be 'anti Rafa' for sure, and if the circumstances were similar for any of the other players (yes even my little slam virgin Muzzy Bear) I would have said exactly the same.
I said it because, well..... you know, I think it's the truth..
I'm honest that way and, to be frank, I couldn't give a f!?k about Fed v Rafa fan internicine politics.
I think I speak for everyone outside of it when I say that particular dance
has seen better days!
Let's see if Puss n Boots can win it with this particular USO as lightning rarely strikes twice, and I suspect this will be the best of the bunch.
I think he can btw,
But he'll sure have his work cut out for him........

Well, ok, Sosueme, that doesn't sound anti-Rafa.
I am hoping Rafa or Muzzy bear win the USO. I wanted Rafa to win Wimbledon and Andy to win USO. But now that Rafa has lost Wimby, that too to Djoko, I want Rafa to win USO. I think he needs a win.
But if Muzzy wins it, I will be happy too.
I want the two guys to be on opposite sides of the draw. Why do they always, or at least almost always, end up on the same side?
If they both reach the final, I will watch the final without stress. May the best guy win, that would be my thought. Anyone else in the final against Rafa or Muzzy, I will be too stressed and won't watch.

I think Rafa's performance this USO may exceed my expectation (I don't have much expectations anyway). As long as serves well, removes that mental block against Nole, and is injury free, he has as good a chance as the other top four guys. The top four guys all face the same danger of meeting some big servers, big hitters, the likes of Delpo, Tsonga, Raonic, Isner, Sod.

Sod looked scarily good at Bastad, beating Ferrer comfortably on clay. I think he's determined to hold on to his no.5 ranking at least, if not moving upwards in the rankings.

lucky and holdserve, here's one for you, v. interesting stats on top 4:
http://bit.ly/mZfnaq

Yup, I read it already.
There's a similar article on bleacher report http://bleacherreport.com/articles/773064-nadal-djokovic-federer-and-m urray-what-do-the-stats-say-about-their-game
Murray lagging in service stats and Fed in return of service stats.
Just out of curiosity I wanted to check up whether Fed's return stats have deteriorated and hence account for his slipping to no. 3. To my surprise, his service and ROS stats are virtually the same every year from 2004 to 2011. In other words, the weak era theory receives additional support!
The Fed fanatics were arguing that Roddick, Safin, Hewitt, Agassi etc were great ( the moronic Sienna was quoting the article of an equally moronic writer called Michael Casenti and to add insult to injury this woman claimed that she was basing herself on logic and scientific studies!) but stats speak otherwise. Rafa and Djoko are not only light years ahead of those so-called supposedly greats of the Fed era, they are ahead of Fed himself.

Sos, I'm interested to know how you came to nickname my Favourite Player Of All Time, Puss in Boots, because I am not a fan of cats. It seems incongrous to me.

holdserve, I envy you that you can support 2 players. If I ever root for any other player in a match my ulterior motive is how the result will pan out for the spanish bull in the end as far as the draw is concerned.

Thu Jul 21 02:54pm EDT
By Chris Chase

A picture of Novak Djokovic standing with his hands up as friend and fellow tennis player Janko Tipsarevic points a gun at him was posted, then quickly taken down, from Tipsarevic's Facebook page on Thursday. It was accompanied by the caption: "How much $$$ would Rafa gief... ;)." (We'll assume he meant "give.")



See Photo: Novak Djokovic jokes around with a gun pointed at him
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/bacHC

*************************** *****

Tasteless doesn't do it!!!!!!!!!

Hi deuce, thanks for the link, I've read it somewhere too. I'm interested in what Pete Bodo said about Fed on his Return of second serves points won stats. Fed's was the poorest among the top four in this category, in fact in all category of Return of Serves stats.

Bodo mentioned that it may be something to do with gutsiness when it comes to taking your chances when returning the second serves. In fact I find that Rafa, Nole, Murray and even Delpo are more gutsy than Fed when it comes to crunch moments, not only when returning serves. They are more willing to take risk compared to Fed. Rafa is willing to take his chances, like serving aces during crunch moments, S&V at crucial moments as a surprise tactics, aiming for the corners etc. Nole dare to play his paint the line tennis and even drop shots at
crunch moments, Murray too. I feel that Fed rather plays it safe instead of taking risks at crunch moments, well maybe he is like that when against these few young guys. Against the rest of the field, Fed rarely has to take much risk.

Nadline: I've just posted a comment on this subject on 'Djokovic looms large', before I read this thread.

Beyond Tasteless.

BTW. Mr. Lindhal hit the jackpot this time. This thread has garnered more comments than all his other 'News Items' put together. lol.

ed, sadly a lot of the posts on this thread is not to do with the contents of Johan's blog. 80% is the ongoing Fedal debate where most threads always end up.

Hey luckystar, I read Bodo's article too but frankly I thought the articles were too long. He has written two long articles which are too long. In a nutshell it boils down to the observation that Muzza's serve stats could do with improvement and Fed's return stats are lagging behind the other three.
All that gutsiness etc is pure guesswork. As I mentioned in my post above, Fed has had virtually the same serve and return stats since 2004. But people were calling him GOAT and were writing reams and reams of stuff about his genius. Now with the same stats the chap has become gutless.
My explanation that Fed played in a weak era between 2004 and 2007 seems more sensible. I think Bodo's becoming senile. He made some bizarre predictions for one of the slams, can't remember which one. Tignor is better but though he is an admirer of Rafa, I find him wavering in his faith in our man.

nadline, I think sosueme is thinking of Puss in boots from the Shrek series. An assassin with a Spanish accent, voiced by Banderas of Zorro fame. He also becomes quite lovable, so I guess Rafa fans need not feel offended.

In other words puss in boots is a nice swashbuckling spanish cat. which fits Rafa.

holdserve, in the past Fed's guts were not put to the test that often as he practically lord over everyone, until Rafa came along. Rafa had shown more guts than Fed. In that Rome 2006 final, Fed had match points but he played conservatively and allowed Rafa back and ended up loosing. It seemed that Fed's afraid to lose that advantage against Rafa, while Rafa played bravely to save match points. Rafa is always very gutsy, just look at how he saved five match
points against Nalby in that 2009 IW match. Well maybe during Fed's haydays, he didn't need to save match points that often and hence his gutsiness wasn't put to the test. These four young guys - Rafa, Nole, Murray, Delpo - all have to take their chances while playing against Fed so maybe there's more chances for them to show their gutsiness. I can't say for sure that Fed is not gutsy, it's just that I feel that he ranked behind those four in this respect.

Tignor is a Rafa fan, he's just trying to be as objective as possible in his writeups. He may be full of admiration for Fed and now Nole, but deep down Rafa is his guy. Of course that's just my guess. For me Rafa is always the tennis player for me. He's got everything: intelligence, talent, guts, determination, good work attitude, physical and mental toughness, competitive spirit, strong desire to excel and puts in his best efforts all the time. I love it that Rafa has a unique style of play and very original. He comes with flaws but learns how to overcome them, always strives to improve and always stays positive and learns to overcome whatever problems he faces out there.

Bodo's interpretation doesn't seem ok. Maybe instead of saying Fed is gutless, he can say others have lost their fear of Fed. But frankly, I wasn't too impressed with his articles.

Me too, holdserve. He's too pro Fed and even when writing an article in praise of Rafa, will always try to have a dig at Rafa too. He's not as unbiased as Steve Tignor.

holdserve, thanks for explaining Puss in Bots to me, I wasn't offended, I just didn't get it. It makes sense now, I'm afraid that Shrek has totally passed me by.

Laydeez!
Gentlemen!
Can we get a new thread soon?
Please!
I saw this trundling to the social security offices to apply for Medicare....

The only way to stop it is to stop adding to it, m'dear....oops..;)
Hope there wasn't too huge a queue at social security but yesterday when I went....oops...

These stats are pointless because it all depends on who they are playing. For instance, Rafa has had to play Isner, Karlovic and Muller this year all big servers, yet his Points Won Returning 1st Serve, Points Won Returning 2nd Serve, Break Points Converted, Return Games Won are not that different to the others. In fact he's level with Nole on points won returning 1st and 2nd serves, and only 1 behind him on break points converted and 3 behind on return games won.

Considering Rafa has faced ace machines 3 times this year and Isner in a 5 setter and come out more or less level with the rest speaks volumes.

nadline, 7/23/11 11:13 AM My comment was a bit tongue in cheek but I'm quite certain JL would have been well aware he would stir up all the old animosities by giving space to Fed's comments - spoken as usual with his forked tongue. My guess is he (along with all the FedUps) thoroughly enjoyed seeing Rafa de-throned and, if he cant reclaim No.1 for himself, I think he would have praised anybody who wrested the crown from Rafa.