So sad... Nadal finish career with 25 :)

Heavyweight bout out there tonight. I was afraid somebody was gonna pass out and die out there.

What can you say about Nole? Gassed from the third set. Back acting up serving WTA serves in the 4th set and still winning. I said if he won Wimbledon the GS flood gates would open and so far I'm right.

For the first time since Miami final 2005 I actually felt sorry for Rafa. He ran his ass off out there and hit the wall at the 4 hour mark. He looked dejected at the end.

Nadal lost yet again, Nadal and Federer both are hurting their claims as all time greats by repeatedly losing to the same player over and over again you simply cant be dominated by a fellow player Nadal has now lost 6 matches against Novak and roger has a poor record vs nadal. Cant remember Pete sampras having such a problem against any player and now even if Federer and nadal end up winning more majors tthan sampras they still have the question mark of repeatedly losing to a fellow player. Pete sampras is greater than nadal and Federer

big hearted nole strikes again. this year will certainly be remembered in the tennis history books. unbelievable!

Djokovic made Nadal run so much that he was out of gas in the fourth set.Djokovic has the finest,most precise return of serve since Agassi.

easy to return a serve as weak as Rafa's. I mean, come on, where's the USOpen2010 serve, Rafa?

Seriously, only Fed can make this Djokovic look ordinary. Or maybe Murray at his best form. Rafa is just unlucky that a player like Djoker exists in his era. His serve are getting munched like cookies and his cross court forehand is a set-up for Djoko's ripped BH.

3rd set was all about Djokovic being nervous and 1st,2nd,4th was about Rafa being outplayed.

at the one point of the match, both run 1.76 km... Where does that stats can be seen?

3rd set was unbelievable

Torres, not sure if Rafa was hitting his 135 mph serves and hitting his DTL forehand, he'll lost so easily to Nole. This year is certainly not Rafa's. Ever since his illness, we see his game and his fitness deteriorating. His serve was messed up, at IW and now at the USO. He hardly hit his DTL forehand, only in that Roddick match and in the third set of this final that we saw it's appearance. His backhand now is error prone and he has to stand so far behind the baseline to return serves! In fact every aspect of his game has gone backwards, with the exception of his net game.

The way Nole plays these days, creating all the angles, taking the ball early, serves well and returns well, strong at both wings whether CC or DTL, really make Rafa looks one dimensional! Rafa seems to have only the CC forehand and backhand, with the DTL shots not functioning as desired. On the fast hard courts, once he can't rely on his serves to earn cheap points, he has to work so hard just to hold serve. One frustrating thing about Rafa is that he always take a very passive position on the court, standing way back from the baseline and as a result, time and again, his shots keep landing within the service box and allowed Nole to attack them easily. In the third set, he started hitting his big forehands deep inside the court and that gave Nole plenty of problems.

Why didn't Rafa come out all guns blazing? Instead he played defensive right from the beginning! It's puzzling, after seeing what he's capable of doing in the third set. Maybe, I suspect, Rafa was doing energy management out there, and playing like he did in the third set, with high intensity, consumed more energy and so he's unwilling to do that right at the beginning of the match. Wrong strategy, especially with Nole playing the way he played. Also his serve was the main problem in this match. Plenty for Rafa to think about, going forward.

Careful about all this one dimensional stuff Lucky my dear,
Nadline will have you for breakfast when she comes back from the Keys with that kind of talk!

luckystar,

You get a gold star for being the first Rafan to weigh in here. ;)

I guess we'll just have to say that it was a fluke that Rafa had that 135 mph serve at last year's USO and at no other GS in his entire career. It seemed his strategy was to play as many long rallies as possible and wear Nole out. It almost looked like it was going to work until he hit the wall himself at the 4 hour mark.

I'm not sure if this was a cheeky remark in the trophy presentation or a language thing. Rafa said Nole has had a year that's going to be impossible to repeat as if to say enjoy this buddy because you can't do it next year. Has he learned those subtle jabs from Roger?

Congrats to Novak but I take offence with the comment by tennis 2011.

" Nadal and Federer both are hurting their claims as all time greats by repeatedly losing to the same player over and over again "

Federer is way beyond peak and still came close to stopping Djokovic. If it were not for him we would have Djokovic holding a calendar grandslam. I am sure at peak Federer would stop Djokovic easily with the occassional Hamburg , Madrid and WTF wins against Nadal.

I think Boris Becker said it right, Rafa didn't have a game plan coming into this match but just play his normal game, try and tire out Nole and "try his best". Well, in sports trying best is a minimum cost of admission these days.

Recap of what's changed since 2010 USO:
- Nole has a better serve now (with power and placement)
- Nole is fitter this year (he merely tired out after beating Fed last year)
- Nole's backhand cross-court and then down-the-line winner has been his ticket all this year
- Nole is mentally stronger this year and no longer releases any anger like Murray

It just shows that there are easier ways to win than run down balls and hope your opponent makes a mistake. Fed is the more formidable opponent and Nole knows it; he uses his serve, volleys at the net, picks Nole's forehand. I just think Fed now lacks the fitness/hunger/mental stamina to finish 5-setters against Nole/Rafa - he is human after all.

Rafa had played very smart in the 3rd set picking Nole's forehand after pushing him wide in his backhand, which allowed him to win 6 consecutive points which was pivotal in helping him win the 3rd. But somehow, he stopped that tactic and started playing to Nole's backhand again. This shows he didn't really have a plan today, nor a serve he could rely on - all partially due to nerves and negative psychology.

Recap
- Rafa's serve is nowhere near the level of Nole/Fed
- He's probably the fittest (but look at the injuries he has to sustain..what is the long-term cost?)
- Rafa had 5 chances to figure out what changes he had to make prior to today - complacency I think thinking Nole will just break down.
- UNcle Toni hasnt spent the time analyzing Nole's game as a coach and should be partially responsible for the dismal record against Nole this year.

The good news is Rafa is the same age as Nole, and has 6 more GS's, and will get over this. Fed, like Roddick in '09, may not due to age.

This is good for tennis but we need a more balanced rivalry...the bar has been raised in the world of tennis and he broke the stranglehold ... good for Nole.

Q. Did it knock you out of your rhythm when he took the long injury timeout after the first game of the fourth set after you had just won the tiebreak?

RAFAEL NADAL: We are starting the press conference in a bad way, I think. (Smiling.) Let's talk about the match.

That is why I think Rafa is GOAT!

@nirv02

Spoken like a true fan of Roger,
Do you judge this by his ability in the past to stop fererro, roddick, hewitt etc
No, I doubt he would be able to stop this Novak easily,
But he could and can occasionally stop him now as he has improved his game 
Impressively from his earlier years in a weak era.

Nah mate atg

He should have just said "Injuries are part of the tournament and so with it comes timeouts, as long as it is in the rule book , I am fine with it"

@sosueme

Nah , thats because I have a brain !. If a 30 year old can take someone at his peak to five sets and defeat in him a grandslam. Then I am sure when the 30 year old was 25 he would have no problem!

Not necessarily,
I mean I get your logic clearly, I also have a brain,
But I'm not convinced that it would be so linear.
Yes Federer beat him at RG but was it purely due to the age difference or the fact that Novak had just come off an incredible run.
Or maybe that Roger had discovered a way to defeat him.
Most observers of Fed think he plays better now, it's just that the competition has gotten better too.

I mean can you say just because someone is older that they would have automatically done better when they were younger?

Well Boris Becker may be right or wrong. The thing with Rafa is, he has to work within his limitations. I can tell him to serve big, followed with big forehand to end the point; or mix in some S& V; come forward to the net as much as possible; stand closer to the baseline and hit deep penetrating shots; mix in both CC, IO CC and DTL forehands, etc and etc. All these Rafa is capable of doing when he's at the top of his game. However right now, Rafa is not at the top of his game. First his serve is giving him problem all summer; second he can hardly hit his DTL forehand consistently with accuracy as he's not at a high confidence level. Third, his ROS isn't ideal and as a result he has to stand so far behind the baseline to return serves, putting himself in a defensive position right away.

I'm sure Rafa and his camp knows what Nole is capable of, it's just that right now Rafa simply can't raise his level of play due to certain constraint he's facing right now. Anyone who watched how Fed played against Nole, or Murray or Bellucci against Nole should have some idea what are the things that still can work against Nole. However, it's the execution part that's the difficulty. Right now, Rafa is simply not at a good enough level to deal with Nole, and hence Rafa is hoping that Nole's level comes down to earth instead. It doesn't happen this year and it may not happen next year, but what I'm confident about is that a motivated Rafa will work with his team and think of solution to the Nole problem. Rafa still has the tools and the skill sets to deal with Nole; it's the bringing together of all these, with a right frame of mind, a fit and healthy body, and a good strategy and then the proper execution of which that will ensure that Rafa still has a good chance of defeat this Nole. Let's just wait and see what will the Rafa camp bring to the table the next time these two meet.

Yes , he would have when he was younger because his movement would have been superior and he wouldnt be shanking the balls so much . All the tennis analysts have said that Fed has slowed down.

luckystar
What Rafa needs to do , skip rest of the tour , rejuvenate , heal and play a warm up watch in 2012 and be ready for AO. There is just too may injuries we dont know about.

Okay fair enough (maybe), but
Rafa has been beating Roger since he was a teenager,
But has failed to solve the Novie problem,
But Roger kind of has,
Is Rafa now too old as well?
Makes me think it's more to do with a widening of skills than youthful exhuberance.

Yes nirv, in fact I've already mentioned before, that I hope that after the USO, and DC, Rafa can skip at least the Asian swing, to allow himself time to fully recover from any fatigue, injury or whatever. I think he can skip one Masters now, as he has already played more than 600 matches now, and so skipping Shanghai and Tokyo ( and get a zero pointer) will give him five to six weeks rest before coming back for Paris and London. I'm not sure he can skip every tournament for the rest of this year, unless he has a valid reason.

I think he most likely has already secured his no.2 ranking so skipping some tournaments won't hurt his ranking any further.

Nadal is in much better shape than he often is at this point in the season

he should play 3 more tournaments: Shanghai, Paris, and London

@Ricky
And lose in all of them....

The quation in tennis in mathematical terms
Rafa > Fed (on all surfaces)
Rafa > Murray (on all surfaces)
Djoker > Rafa (on all surfaces)
Djoker and Federer well this is the equation I am yet to figure out

Fed and Murray have no equation as they just cant meet these days and neither do Djoker and Murray thanks to organisers.

Lucky,
You're correct that Rafa needs to work within his limitations, however, having an effective serve or playing a little deeper doesn't require a player to be at the top of his game. I'm sure I'm not alone to feel the agony of Rafa topspinning shallow balls for Nole to put away.

The concern I have is how much longer can Nadal's physical condition support his style of play as something has got to give and that can only benefit Nole. Right now, Nole/Fed are much more well-rounded players than Rafa and Rafa needs to acknowledge that and not be stubborn and continue his ways. If he does, he will not win any GS's next year.

As for Murray, he needs to fix his mental blockage like Nole had to in 2010 to start next season. He does have the talent to join the 3 but he always comes up short due to mental/physical reasons. He's at the same age as Rafa/Nole so he better make use of his time if he wants to add any GS's to his career cause the level of play can only go up from here.

What's an even darker cloud is where are the next generation of top players to follow as a season without Fed/Nole/Rafa would kill tennis. That is a huge dependency risk should any 1 or 2 of them fall due to injuries.

The most depressing thing for Nadal to take from this defeat is that Djokovic was not playing well. His serve percentage was pathetic,his first serve speed was unusually low and he made a lot of unforced errors. But despite such a lacklustre performance from Djokovic, he still beat Nadal quite handily. this doesn't bode well for the spaniard in future encounters with Novak.

When not confident, Rafa tends to stand way behind the baseline...I think Rafa again did not believe in victory...he went on the court thinking: I will most certainly lose this one but I should not let it be a beat down...well, he almost got beaten in straights...It took Rafa's pride and Nole's drop in level for Rafa to win the third...I agree that Nole's MTO was tactical move...he may have felt something but it was nothing like a serious injury...let's face it: do you think Nole would have been able to hit the ball that hard and sharp, hitting angles and serving well if he had any serious back problems? And I thought he should have not been allowed to take an MTO on Rafa?s serve...I felt that MTO took the momentum from Rafa and he lost the game he had in the third set...somehow I think Rafa expected Nole's level would drop in the fourth due to that injury...But Nole came back stronger after that MTO...But, then again, I think it would have not made any difference after all, with or without tactical MTO Rafa was clearly outplayed...Nole was a better player in every aspect of his game and Rafa being defensive and playing 'Golubev kind of match' most of the time should have expected this outcome...

We all know Rafa has Nole in his head and there is nothing surprising about it...in IW and Miami Rafa was still confident that he could beat Nole and that is why he was able to take a set from Nole...he is no longer there...he becomes mental midget when facing Nole and it is so sad...the same old story: Rafa takes a lead, he is ahead with the break, and then immediately gets broken back...nobody can fix it for Rafa, not even Uncle Toni who may come up with God knows how good tactics but Rafa has to do it himself...he has to fix his head...once he starts believing, he may feel confident enough to quit that defensive play and start using his brain...until that time comes Rafa will be an easy target for this amazing Nole...

Congratulations for all Novak fans and all healthy tennis people.
I'll say this is a good win for Nole and a bad one for tennis as he's becoming dictatorial. If Nadal is not able to beat him I hope someone comes along and does it next Season.
I stopped watching after Rafa was broken early on the 3rd set... and missed the best part (for me, as a Rafa fan).
But Novak is the ultimate player now, no doubt about it :)
Vamos Rafa, look at the glass half full and not half empty:you have reached 6 FINALS this year, that's more than the rest of the tour except for a better player, no shame in that (and the h2h is still favorable to Rafa btw ;))

Jngannex, i think Rafa's serve problem is not a permanent one. I have a feeling it may be due to his foot problem, that he can't really put in the required hours of practice for his serve. He tried serving at above 120 mph but he netted most of them. Also I think he'll not risk any shoulder injury serving at 135 mph ( he had to miss the Paris Masters last year due to mild shoulder tendinitis). When he's fit and healthy, I expect him to hit some 120-125 mph serves
regularly. Now once his serve is off the boil, he can't win cheap points so he has to rely on his ground game to hold serve, and we end up seeing him grinding his way through as Nole himself is so solid on his ground strokes too. Had Rafa's serves being working well, he'll shorten his service game and thus cut down on his grinding.

Rafa has an improved game, the one where he can move forward to the net to attack or to finish the point. However, he didn't play that game today, I think due mainly to his confidence issue. As I've mentioned before, the problem with Rafa is that he simply doesn't have the belief that he can beat Nole, and that's why he can't think clearly about his tactics, resulting in him playing an effective and aggressive game too late, only when he's two sets down.

tj, you talk as if Rafa was playing his A-game and still lost to a Nole not playing his. If that's the case then I think Rafa is doomed. However, I must say that both didn't play their A-game, and hence all the break of serves and errors. What Nole has and Rafa doesn't have: the belief. If Rafa has the belief that he can beat Nole, he'll play aggresively in the first place and we may not see him losing the first two sets and then have to give chase in the third set.

agree with the fact that nadal was not 100% confident last night. i cant remember his exact words in the pre-match interview, but he said something like if he doesnt win today he will try again some other time. he voluntarily brought up losing, i dont think i've heard anyone else do that.

it was a high quality match, but looking at the stats, there were a shocking number of UEs. 51 for nole! ridiculous numbers.

I agree with lucky in answering tj600. Neither player had their "A" game in this match. So many breaks of serve for both players throughout the match.

Some people need to read Rafa's press conference and then they will have a better picture of how he views this match and what he took from it. He is far from feeling negative or hopeless, in fact he feels better after this loss than Wimbledon. Rafa acknowledged that his serving was bad, the inability to win cheap points and always being behind in his service games. That puts enormous mental pressure on him and he already has more than enough dealing with the five previous losses. Rafa also acknowledged his failure to capitalize on going up 2-0 in the first and second sets and consolidate the breaks of serve. He knew that he could not afford to lose the first two sets. I am amazed at his clarity of thought and awareness of what was going on in all aspects of his game. He never tries to play games, just comes out and says what he did well and what he didn't do well. Now he feels that he found a way to victory in this match. There are some signs and things that worked and the challenge is to build on that.

Nole needed that MTO, whether it was his back or he was just gassed. He was feeling it. Rafa got to him and had him back on his heels for a bit. However, Rafa couldn't break him in the first game of the fourth set when there was something not right. That was the time to strike, but Rafa had expended so much emotional and physical energy to pull out that third set, that he had nothing left.

I would be more upset about that MTO if Rafa had a realistic chance to win the match. But it was too late. Rafa said that he now has a goal and he found some answers in this match. If anyone thinks that Rafa will feel it's hopeless after this, then they really do not have a clue about him.

Sosueme, the so-called 'strong-era' we have now is because Fed set the bar so high eventually guys 5 years younger than him will catch up to him but not his generation. All-court players in the field rite now is the Roger Federer-Rafa effect and of course racquet technology+slower courts.

Anyway, i'm just sad that Rafa didn't figure out that inside-out forehands to Nole's forehands is the money shot for Rafa against Nole. And I dunno why in rallies Rafa's BH lacks depth and power that he had to run around his forehand so much.

The one-month break I see Rafa training to:-
1) improve backhand
2) practice the inside-out forehand
3) practice those middle-court slice

We saw in 2008 which was when Rafa finally broke through the 'only-clay' thingy by adjusting here and there.

Well Kudos To Nole for a stellar season. He deserves every bit of accolades for the things he has done this year. But you got to give it to Rafa that he has been the second best player on tour this year. He has a GS, a masters and a 500. While his fellow top 4's other than Nole have two 250's and a masters between them. No shame losing to a player who is creating history this season. Well if Nole keeps this going for years to come, Rafa and others just have to doff their hat and say that Nole has staked a claim to GOAT status and Rafa should be happy for the 10 GS he has which is no mean achievement. But as we have seen in tennis, form is temporary. A man who did not get to a single Master final last year has made 6 finals this year. It is just about confidence and once Rafa gets it back we will see how the tennis hierarchy is. It speaks volumes about Nole's form that he cannot be figured out by Rafa, no less even after 6 meetings.

Brilliant points made by everyone on where Rafa lost this match and what he needs to change for the future.

For me I really think Rafa doesn't believe he can beat Djokovic. He had the perfect start getting the early break and then suddenly plummeted. His 1st sevre just vanished, for which I still can't understand. Breaking an opponents should be the step to generate momentum and carry on, yet this was reverse for Rafa.

There's many things you can't do in tennis, and near the top of the list is conceding serve immediately after breaking. It just tells your opponent not to panic if serve is lost because you'll have the chance to break back.

The serve is the most key shot to improve amongst everyhing else. Had he had the US Open 2010 serve he probably would've won this match or come very close in a 5 setter at least.

Oh well, were just going to have to hope that next year sees and eventual comedown from Nole, a last ever resurgence from Fed, or a final breakthrough from Murray. That's what it's going to take now, to keep tennis interesting as I'm no longer convinced that Rafa can beat Nole on any surface in any match. Hope I'm wrong but that's the way it's looking right now.

Just got up, man, I wonder if it has sunk in for Novak that he has had such an outrageous year.

yesterday's match was beautiful in terms of the fight and sheer physical brutality. I'm still having trouble figuring out how the guys sustained their physicality in that third set, under pressure in the most unreal points. The highlights package would be quite long in that match.

Well, I think Nole has to do some work on his serving, it isn't where it was when he won the Australian earlier this year but he's reached such heights with his movement and hitting from the baseline that he more than compensates for it.

I think the difference in the end was Nole's return of serve. The depth and pace he gets on them is quite amazing; it was the shot that saved him against Federer and it is the shot that set up a lot of points for him yesterday. I also love how he is able to crack big forehands under pressure; this was something he didn't have previously in his game and now its become a huge weapon.

Nole has at least one Davis Cup weekend left to play, and then 5 more tournaments. It will be interesting to see if he can push on and win as much as possible in order to ensure that his season goes down in the history books as THE men's season of the year outside of Rod Laver's in 1969. 4 of those five tournaments are particularly tough assignments, and I wonder if he will have the motivation. I hope he does.

Samprallica, Nole has specifically said that he was going for accuracy rather than speed since he was feeling a lot of pain while serving. You could make that out as well, hardly any first serves went in after a while, and his serve speed dropped alarmingly to around 85 kmph (according to the commentators).

It was most likely a sub-concious reaction to avoid watching the inevitable come to pass but I fell asleep during Nole's MTO and woke up when the match was all over. I'm not sure I want to watch a replay of what I missed!!

However, reading the two active threads this morning I have been struck by the corteous exchanges between fans of both men and the insights from so many people. What a welcome change it makes to the stupid bickering and spiteful jibes that have so often contaminated and ruined post match discussions.

Lucky: As always your astute analysis and encylopaedic knowledge are invaluable for all of us and particularly for someone like myself for whom tennis has been a spectator sport since leaving school.

NNY: I know where you are coming from re: the references to Rafa doing a Borg. There was a point mid 2009 when I did wonder if he might just walk away. Then look what happened in 2010. It's possible he might be lost in the wilderness for a while, a la Agassi in mid-career, but I firmly believe he will regroup and come storming back again - one must hope sooner rather than later! .

^^ I agree, but I just feel that his serve was at a higher level at the AO than the whole of the USO or even Wimbledon.

Nole is 10-1 against Fedal this year. He has beaten Fed and Rafa back to back in a slam. It's very hard to believe, given that he looked well on his way to never fulfilling his potential before the US Open last year.

It is clearly a confidence issue guys and sense of belief. How else can you explain not being able to consolidate any break of serve by Rafa? Also how often have you seen Rafa netting a smashed overhead, netting 2-3 volleys which were sitting winners. I thought he lost the games because of those errors, had he not we may be talking of a different score. Its clearly a confidence issue.


Heart of heart I hoped Rafa would pull this one off, but Djoko is too strong for him right now. I still have a feeling if it was anyone else in the final (including Fed)..Rafa would ahve won both this & Wimby..Its too much a mental block right now against Djokovic.

I hope 2012 is more balanced with many people winning stuff.

I am not really bothered about Rafa reaching 16 slams (I dont think its realistic anymore and Feds legacy is intact )..I would be happy if he wins 3 more (wish lit is 1 more AO, 1 more USO, 1 more Wimby) so that he wins min 2 of each something which no one has.

If you ask me, Rafa played in USO final against Djoko far better than what he played at Wimby, so thats a BIG positive.

I think good serve and more length on his shots (esp backhand) is what Rafa needs and ofcourse mixing it up by coming to net more often

Hope 2012 brings us some reasons to smile as Rafa fans

I think these 5 are the best GS matches of 2011 (in no order). They had excellent tennis, very high intensity and were highly competitive

Fed Djoko USO SF (brilliant 1st and 5th)
Djoko Rafa USO final (brilliant 2nd and 3rd)
Fed Rafa FO final (brilliant 1st, 2nd, 3rd)
Fed Djoko FO semi (brilliant 1st, 2nd, 4th)
Rafa Delpo Wimby 4th round (brilliant 1st, 3rd, 4th)


Which are your top 5?

Also Rafa was always known to be one of the fittest. I was shocked to see him totally gassed out in the 4th with no stamina to even move

Well I am simply speechless...
Last night in press room Professor Rafael Nadal gave a lecture about "Perfect sportsmanship"
When one of stupid students asked him about disturbing the rhytm of opponent with MTO... professor Nadal answered " We are starting the conference in bad way... lets talk about match"
Student Federer unfortunately missed the lecture. Shame. He could learn a lot!
....
...let me say this again... I am simply speechless...
I mean... I play card with my friends... if I lost 6 time in row ... I will be pissed !
But in such moment ... Rafael Nadal is finding such answer to a scavenger's question.
That kid has heart BIGGER than Flashing Meadows. Idiots from press world didn't even noticed.... he deserved standing ovations in press room. I liked him always, respected him... but now....this is completely new level. I am delighted with Rafa's conduct and I can hope that Novak will have same level. In that case... we will witness fantastic rivalry in years to come.
Sorry fedfans...you can count your GSS... but when we are talking about sportsmanship... sport's fighting spirit... this guy is GOAT!!!
GOAT as a player... and what is more important as Human. Human with big letter H.
...
Bravo Novak... writing his own moments in tennis history. And now go back to your Belgrade. Argentinians will wait for You.

sanju, this is my list:

Federer vs Djokovic USO semis
Djokovic vs Nadal USO final
Federer vs Tsonga Wimbledon quarters
Ferrero vs Monfils USO 2nd round
Djokovic vs Nadal Wimbledon final

I think that key point was Rafa backhand and reluctance to use it in more aggressive manner. He had lot of more forehand UE's, but fight was not lost there.

Novak out powered himself or anyone else during this match especially first 2 sets. I NEVER seen someone hitting ball so consistently hard and fast for a such long time. And what mattered is that Novak was pushing so hard, and so far no matter what. UE ratio was against him in 1st set, on the edge on 2nd and clearly off the limit in 3rd set. In 4th, when it most mattered, when he was hampered, tired and cannot even serve above 100 mph he managed to have 17-5 win/UE ratio playing the riskiest points, shortening points to the max.

There was one rally in 2nd set of 21 points which Rafa won, but that showed what are Novak human margins. If you paid attention (and I had headphones to the max, audio set w/o comments), you could hear in that rally tempo, pace and strength of each shot. Novak hit 20 balls, hard, without any calculation, pushing Nadal far from baseline...But form 18th shot, grunts become high pitched, balls little bit slower, on 20th Novak speed dropped producing WTA sound, wanting for that ball to keep going at same speed, but it was slow.... no strength at all... But he didn't stopped there... he didn't stepped out a little bit, even as he clearly experienced and showed that he cant pound that ball hard more than 20 times at the moment. He kept going to rallies like it never happened... He went in longer rallies, he just didn't want to step back no matter what.

That is way to win, but Rafa contributed a lot with his crippled game. I am sorry because most Rafans will attack me, but Rafa wasn't complete player in SF and finals. I wondered why Murray was unable to exploit his BH, and that was key of such a poor game. Novak, on the other hand did it much better. There was average of 7-9 rallies per point, which is undoubtedly a lot. Novak was controlling 90% of rallies all the time. That is IMPOSSIBLE, that is something nobody should be able to do against any top 100 player.

Novak managed to do that by simply resetting any Nadal initiative, any his bad shot, any potential lost opportunity, by sending ball to Rafa BH. It is not easy to do all the time, especially if you are not in the control of the game. But Rafa BH was one large RESET button. After Rafa BH, you are gettin slice (which didn't trouble Novak even ONE single time), slow CC or high bouncing DTL. From that point, rally initiative was reset, and like new point started withing the current one.

OK. Rafa wasn't trusted his BH a lot. The answer was to at least hit FH so hard, using every opportunity to close point, push him back. He was reluctant to do that. He was getting fair share balls on FH side, but he was hesitant to hit them hardest he can. At the moment, he looked so focused about getting pounded on his BH side, that he looked surprised when he got FH, at a times even producing STUPID FH errors not expected from the most powerful FH in the world.

In 3rd set, Rafa unleashed his BH. He stopped with slices, start hitting more powerful CC BH. They are not on his FH level, not that precise but not bad at all. Not sure what kept him from using his BH, like he was ashamed that his BH is not as good as FH, so he didn't want to show it. His BH was good, not average, it was good enough to stop Novak from using it as reset button. There was rallies on Rafa BH that he fought pretty OK. And what was apparent, he used EVERY opportunity to hit his FH as hard as he can. It was MONSTROUS, I had feeling that he pushed Novak back at the moment Novak returned ball. Novak find himself to close to baseline that the ball literally was pushing him few matter behind. And that was exactly what Novak was doing all the time... hitting the ball like it was the last from the very first moment.

Novak was tired in that 3rd set, but that wasn't the reason why he didn't managed to have his level of play from first two sets. Reason was that RESET button becomes smaller and hardly reachable. You can't pound the ball like you want it when you are barely able to catch it. Novak was much more in trouble, and instead searching for Rafa BH he was just happy if he managed to get ball on another side.

I was afraid that Novak didn't left anything in his tank, and that Rafa tactics was to tire, wear down Novak from the beginning. After all, in semis with Federer, Novak wasn't pushing hard at all. I was surprised he was hitting balls so slow first 2 sets. And it was obvious that Novak won't restore his level of stamina after 3rd set in finals.

But 4th set was master piece. After first two sets, Novak went for win 100%, without calculation, hitting hard from all guns all the time, when it was good or bad, without compromises. In third, I felt the same for Rafa, leveling play for the first time. I was expecting from Rafa to go farther, stepping and pressing Novak more, and to be honest I already saw repeat of Madrid and Novak famous loss of longest 3 setter ever. But then Novak was hitting great serve. It wasn't great because of speed, as power which dropped to WTA level. But he focused on precise shot, like he use to do once for a while when he is hitting regular serves. And as that wasn't enough... He was going for the winners at ANY decent opportunity. Having 17 winners and just 5 UE. With that tactics, it is miracle even if it was start of the match, and the guy was barely standing.

Novak won this match, as he has comfort zone on Rafa BH side. I would like to see Rafa blasting from all weapons all the time like in 3d set, trough all match. I am just curious what would be that looking. But level of Novak play was SUPERHUMAN in strength department.... Unreal. And if fittest guy on tour couldn't match it, it does look super natural.

I admire to Novak, but also want to congratulate Rafa. I think all stuff about Rafa decline, Novak in his head and so on is rubbish. Rafa just need to feel comfortable with his BH, and to stop be so cautious regarding it. You can't have BH as your FH, as that simply wouldn't be fair :) I think that he has all needed to be GOAT. He don't have to invent and change much, he is there as I think that Novak can't repeat such performance. To be honest never seen anyone playing match on this level...

More important, on the start of presser... Rafa showed who is true GOAT. Rafans, you don't need to be disappointed at all.. Your guys has it all, bu he just run into Novak's peak... If this was Novak from SF, you would be thrilled by the way Rafa played.

Ok Rafans..all those who say Rafa will be back..he will learn a lesson after losing 6 times in a row..off season he will practise..2012 will be turning point..Do you really say that with conviction?

We said it after he lost 2 times, then 3 times, then 4 times, then Wimby final GS no way and now USO too..Shouldnt he have learnt a lesson by now if he really wanted to? Standing so far behind baseline, stop hitting short balls, coming to the net and mixing a bit.is that too much to learn? I can understand developing stronger serve, developing different shots etc..but basic differences in tactics cant be employed? I see he made abs no difference n playing in Wimby final and US final..regarding strategy of trying to tire Novak out..doesnt he know Novak is very fit these days and has survived multiple long matches?

Congratulations Novak and his fans..........................Novak earned his victory.

Rafa was brilliant last night, Novak was better. End of.

What I saw last night was fight. This was the performance of a man who is not going to accept Novak's ascendency quietly, he will fight. I could not ask more of Rafa, true grit. Rafa is not going away. He said before the match if he does not beat Novak in the final he will know what his target is next year. This is why a lot of commentators use one word when they describe Rafa: relentless. He keeps coming at you. This is why for me, he is the best, not because a computer ranking says so.

I expected Rafa to lose this match, based on form coming into the tourny and Novak's own remarkable form. I must also add that I did not expect him to reach the final by the way.

The ATP right now is a straight out fight...................between Rafa and Novak (in a good way, mind). To put into perspective what Novak has achieved this year..........look at Rafa's results this year, not shabby by any stretch...............Novak has been out of this world.

Chapeau!!

Ok and 1 more thing..I dont expect Rafa - Novak relationship as long as they both playing to be like Fed - Rafa..They wont bad mouth each other , will weigh words carefully, no public spats , will be all professional ..but I dont expect them to be pally 1 bit like Fed-Rafa are, watch out it will be very intense..John Mcenroes wish may well come true of there being hostility, cold vibes in a rivalry

Fed-Djoko anyway arent pally from the begining and dont see it changing either ever.

Guys out of academic interest , if Fed was in the final with Rafa..you think Rafa would have defeated him based on what we saw him play yesterday?

Rafa's fitness this year is no longer at the same level as his 2008/09/10. It's no wonder he felt knackered at Miami under the heat, and at this USO final. We can't expect him to remain the same even if he's older now and especially when he's affected by illness and injuries.

All I hope for is that Rafa will improve every aspect of his game, and continue to play more within the court and cut down on the physically demanding long rallies as he grows older. He has good enough tennis and tactical skills to play more offensively and should always look to play more offensively than defensively.

As Rafa said in his presser, the serve was one aspect of his game that disappointed today. I am not a tennis expert but is that not a part of the game that can be taught? This has been a perennial Rafa weakness, the serve. Why hasn't Rafa and Uncle T employed a coach for specifically this aspect of his game?

Not an evryday fan of Bodo but these quotes from him made me smile:

Best Performance, Men: Can there be any doubt that the honor goes to Novak Djokovic, who snatched the title out of Rafael Nadal?s hands in a four-hour and 10-minute final of extraordinary quality. It was Djokovic?s third Grand Slam title this year?something only five other men in the Open era have accomplished (Rod Laver [who won four in one season], Jimmy Connors, Mats Wilander, Roger Federer [three times] and Nadal, just last year).

This match was the equal of the Wimbledon final between Nadal and Roger Federer in 2008, and it has advanced the idea that this particular in time is the equal if not better of any that has come before.

Most Valuable Player, Men: Rafael Nadal. Djokovic fans will scream, but keep in mind that the MVP isn?t necessarily the best player?he or she is the one that had the greatest impact on the game (in our case, the tournament).

You have to love Nadal for getting to this final to set up the match everyone was hoping to see, and also for playing such a great match against Djokovic. It?s almost enough to make us forget that we have yet to be treated to a Nadal-Roger Federer final in New York.

Most Disappointing Performance, Men: Roger Federer had two match points against Novak Djokovic in their semifinal, just like he did last year. But this time, Federer was the one serving. Given all Federer had to gain by winning the match (among other things, single-handedly holding Djokovic to two Grand Slam titles in 2011, which would significantly if perhaps unfairly reduce the hype about his nearly perfect season), it was a shame that he couldn?t close the deal.

Grated, Djokovic blasted an unearthly forehand to wipe away that first match point, but the way Federer made a hash of the second opportunity will remain emblazoned on our memory for a long time.

Most Disappointing Performance, Women: Not to make this post all about Serena Williams, but?the way Serena, the No. 28 seed, pushed around No. 1 and top-seeded Caroline Wozniacki was almost disturbing. Wozniacki has been No. 1 for about a year, was coming off a big win in New Haven, and had looked very strong all the way to the semifinals (losing no sets along the way). But against Serena, her serve was woeful and even her vaunted defense startlingly ineffective. Was Serena great, or did Wozniacki once again come up small at a big event? Sorry to say, I think it?s the latter.

sanju, 9/13/11 12:38 PM You are spot on. While Nadal was beating Nole in the big tournaments their exchanges at the net were always warm. Since he began to beat Rafa regularly they have become distinctly cooler. Check out the difference between last year's USO final and this year's on YouTube. 2010 was a long embrace. 2011 was positively perfunctory.

I once watched all the net exchanges of Rafa beating Federer. He always gave the impression he was embarrassed/almost regretful at having beaten his rival. Ditto after he has beaten Murray.

Novak is definitely not squeamish about toppling Rafa!!!

I think they shared same PR agent and now PR agent is with Rafa and not with Nole. I really dont know whats the issue but from this April onwards something may have gone wrong between them and it cant be just the losses. It has to be someting off court. They will both not speak anything in public as Rafa is guarded and Novak too wont make mistake of speaking about Rafa but it is not escaping the eye that something is distant . You cant graduate from being hugging each other all over n embracing to being strictly professional handshake without much eye contact.

what a match. I enjoyed most of the comments above especially analysis from luckstar, numero, and jgermax at the top.
Djokovic didn't even serve particularly well yesterday. But that return of serve is deadly. It really shows that Nadal has to think more carefully. Time and time again he tried a predictable high kick serve, on those ad side key moments, to Djokvjoic's
backhand. Federer can only slice those high balls tamely back, most of the time into the net. That's how Nadal deals so well with break points. But Djokovic's great two hander neutralizes that serve, and even attacks it.
I might be a Fed fan, and I think Fed should have beat Djokovic, but I think Nadal would have beaten Fed the way he (Nadal) was playing last night. Nadal is very fortunate Federer took out Djokovic in the French, much as Federer has Soderling to thank in 2009.

Yes Bharata..Rafa was too relentless yeterday and I too think he would ahve beaten Fed in 4 or 5 yesterday..Fed usually wilts under Rafas relentless groundstrokes and wouldnt scramble around like Djoko did to get as many balls back.

It just goes to show how high Djokos level is currently compared to the next 3 in order - Rafa, Fed, Murray

And yes Rafans- Rafa should stop saying level is impossible to keep..thats Djokos lookout whether he keeps or not..

Any prediction game for next year? For speculation sake?

Although he never rose to the bait maybe all those years of sly, and not so sly, digs and elaborate mind games by Federer got to Rafa. It is certainly out of character and unwise for him to make such comments.

Actually Rafa meant it as a compliment. Compliment in the sense that what Nole has achieved now, it's next to impossible for anyone to come close to repeating it. We need not always see things in the negative and always suspect other's motives.

Rafa also mentioned about his own achievement last year and mentioned that it's impossible for him to do the same again. Where this is concern, he's being humble and realistic about his own chances of repeating his 2010 performances. That also put into perspective what Fed has achieved in 2004/06/07, and that's why Rafa has tremendous respect for Fed and his achievements.

1st of all, from this match, Rafa should know that Djoko's forehand is his weaker side. But in tennis going cross court is probably the easier shot most of the time so Rafa needs to practice those DTL forehands and Djoker will have a lot of trouble.

2ndly, Rafa's BH was non-existent yesterday. Wimby2008 was a potrayal of how good it can be. if he works hard during the off-season for a cross-court backhand then again Djoko's forehand will be in a lot of trouble.

3rdly, Rafa needs to do more slice on Djoko's forehand.

But of course like Rafa said, I know what to do but I dunno whether I will be able to do it.

Oh yead ed..I didnt mean imposs to keep was Rafa hinting anything..I meant he should not stop working on himself assuming Noles level is impossible to sustain..he should instead leave that to Nole whether he sustains but he should work on his improvisations

Guess my sattement was misunderstood

Yes that's the right word, Nadal is relentless. I was impressed he never even showed a hint of lowering his intensity once. You can see how mentally hard it must be for anyone to deal with that willpower. And Djokovic refused to blink and stood up to it, he was confident he had the game to go blow by blow with Nadal, which I don't think Fed feels (WTF London 2010 an exception) Djokovic is just solid on both sides...I would even say at this point Djokovic and Nadal are equally mentally strong, and both are ahead of Fed in this department (youth, hunger, not having kids has something to do with it). Djokovic didn't even really panic when down 2 sets to Federer.

Surely Nadal will beat Djokovic eventually, maybe even this year...but Nadal will have to come up with something more than topspinning in, as when they go short, Djokovic is on them like a shark..he did a good job actually starting to hit deep slices to Djokovic, maybe he'll try that more.

Djokovic has more trouble with Fed because of Fed's versatility...he really doen'st know what Fed is going to do so he's more stressed, whereas with Nadal he knows what he has to do...

lucky how much has Nole, Rafa, Fed, Murray to defend from now till EOY?

Rafa is like 4000 pts behind Nole, so No 1 is firmly in Noles pocket
Fed is like 2300 pts behind Rafa, I think Rafa is firm at No 2 too..I think Fed won the most points after last years USO till WTF
Murray is just 1200 pts behind Federer..We may very well see Murray upstaging Fed in next 3 months

I had not read the original comments from Rafa but I should have known better than to infer from comments above that he was resorting to mind games. I guess all those years of bristling at Roger's digs at Rafa have rubbed off on me!

ed, lol. Now don't you go turning into Voldemort charging round sites looking for offence
and getting out a flame thrower...;)

what. a. match!!!

@stu...after reading all comments, views, analyses... I thing you have most concise review of the match... couldn't agree more... and maybe this doesn't need analytical closure... let it be, and hope we will see more of this however wins...

BTW Deuce: I see the weedkiller eventually worked on the deadly nightshade - well for the time being at least.

atg, I missed all the analyses because I was at the Open, and am only just catching up. I agree though, nothing to discuss except how thrilling almost every point in the match was. if the match had ended in 3, with Djokovic winning the 3rd 7-5, the scoreline would not have done justice to Rafa's fight.

Anybody who had the great good fortune to actually be there should be banned from posting and making the rest of us green with envy.

congratulations to all novak fans on nole's amazing,almost unparalleled year...

Lots of love to rafans and rafa for bringing so much joy to my life..

"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same"...it's kipling's...and my favourite quote...applies pretty well here in rafa's case.

Just keep working man....improve your game...there is just no other way now.

Vaamos rafa!

ed, if stu carries on like this we'll just have to direct some in her direction.....

haha ed/ deuce....it was hard enough not being able to rub it in while the match was on yesterday....you can thank AT&T and its crappy signal reception at large (supremely exciting, experienced once-in-a-lifetime, ...) events for that :)

stu, sounds BRILLIANT! I'm going to O2 so I'll make sure I get very, very close to Nole heh, heh...
BTW a friend's young son got very close at some airport and she said Nole was absolutely charming to him and didn't mind being approached, chatted to etc.

That's it. Next year I am going to Paris to watch RG.
Maybe I will be lucky to see carrier slam! Any way it's just 500 km from me :)
I was on Monte Carlo finale... watching Rafa and Nole.... but Grand Slam is...wooow...

Serbian press covered with Nole?s triumph and his fantastic year...and Nole?s statement on the cover page: ?I won't stop! I want it all!" he refers to taking also the FO next year and getting career slam...so, Rafa should know, Nole is after him now...officially...Nole wants Rafa?s beloved FO...well, well is that a real motivation for Rafa to improve his game or what?...:)

So, having all of this in mind, zare, you definitely need to be at the FO next year. I was planning to go this year but couldn?t as I had work to do. Next year, I said, I will be there no matter what! And I hope to witness historic win of Rafa over Nole in finals...:)

"This year is certainly not Rafa's. Ever since his illness, we see his game and his fitness deteriorating."

That's primarily what has made this a very difficult year for Rafa. Yet he won RG and was in Wimbledon and USO final. That's how good he is. That would be a fabulous year for anyone else including Federer.

The serve, rather than Djokovic was the biggest problem for Rafa in this final. If Rafa's serve had been anywhere near normal his chances of winning this match were very good.

Mary Carillo and John McEnroe pride themselves as analysts but they're asleep at the wheel regarding Rafa's serve - they kept on and on about he was not serving fast at all like last year but they are totally wrong. In his earlier matches Rafa was regularly serving above 120 mph, very frequently at 131 mph. I even went back to check his serving in the Murray match and he was serving mostly in 117, 120, 131 mph range with a slower serve now and then for a change-up. In contrast, in the Djokovic match most of Rafa's first serves were around 104 mph or less. There were so many slow serves, around 90 mph or even less and only very rarely was there one at 116 or more. To me, that spells fatigue. It's shocking that Mary and John thought that that's Rafa's normal serve. Also, no one seems to remember that Rafa had played three best of five matches against top quality opponents (rather than a Tipsarevic for example, with no retirement walkover into the semis etc.) in three days with only one day's rest before the finals. Rafa is not a machine. He does get tired too, especially this year since he got the virus in Doha. Otoh, it was kind of shocking how tired Novak was after all the unfair amounts of rest he's been allowed in this tournament. In the end, that's why Rafa had to work so hard and imo why he lost. He was serving big against Murray. I thought maybe he might have a shoulder injury. The only other answer is fatigue and we know how little rest he had.

By the way, I'm surprised I haven't heard anyone anywhere talking about Novak's statements that he was unhappy that the final was moved to Monday because it was more inconvenient for him to get to his next Davis cup match. No problem with the unfairness of asking his opponent in the final to play best of five set matches four days in a row while he has more than double the amount of rest. Here's an excerpt from an article about this:


Top seed and world number one Novak Djokovic said he was not happy to have a Monday final as it would eat into travel plans to reach Belgrade next week for the Davis Cup semifinal with Argentina.

But Federer said that should not be an issue out of fairness to the other players in New York.

"I have to fly to Australia to get there by Friday for the Davis Cup. Is that good? No."

But Djokovic, who is already in the semifinals after defeating Serb compatriot Janko Tipsarevic, is against a Monday final.

"I'm not really happy about that, to be honest. I'm not, because there is always Davis Cup the weekend after," said Djokovic.

"Last year I played finals and finished very late on Monday. Took off Tuesday, arrived Wednesday, and had to play on Friday already, Saturday. How that is possible? It's just too much."

Djokovic, who will have Friday off and also Sunday should he make the final, admitted that he did have a slight advantage over rivals like Nadal and Murray who will play their last-eight matches on Friday.

"For the top half it has to be an advantage because we finished our fourth round a couple days ago, and then today I finished my quarterfinal and I have a day off until my semi, where the other guys have to play day after day," he said.

"That's the way it is. You can't fight it. You can't complain. It's Mother Nature that doesn't allow us."
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-09/top-stories/3 0134874_1_roger-federer-novak-djokovic-davis-cup

It's pretty shocking that Djokovic admitted his true feelings. His lack of sportsmanship and fairplay is sad and it's amazing he felt it was fair to give him such a huge advantage over the other finalist.

In the end, the unfair scheduling was a huge advantage for Djokovic even though the bottom half was allowed one measly day of rest before the final. I think the result would have been different if the tournament had allowed the bottom half to get the fair amount of rest which would have meant the final being on Wednesday or whatever it took.

Djokovic is playing really great, no denying, but he would not have this amazing year without incredible luck - 10 maybe 12 retirement wins, 2 in the semis of master's tournaments, two at the USO, one in the semis when he was in real danger of being beaten and his opponent got injured. That's out and out luck. And one has to mention the huge number of lucky breaks on net cords giving him break point or an outright break or saving him when he's at break point. In all my years of watching tennis I have never seen a player get so many huge lucky breaks on massive points from net cords, match after match after match. Strangely enough, in the USO final, his net-cord luck seemed to have run out but the scheduling look took him over the finish line. It will be interesting to see how long his luck and form hold out when he has all the points to defend and little to gain.

Don't know why that happened but apologies for the doubling in my post.
Cheers and a good day to all!

A) "This year is certainly not Rafa's. Ever since his illness, we see his game and his fitness deteriorating."

That's primarily what has made this a very difficult year for Rafa.


How is this different than the mononucleosis excuse used by Fedfans in 2008 or the lung infection post-AO 2010? As far as we know Rafa had the common cold or perhaps a flu at the beginning of the year.

Regarding the match, he had way more energy/fitness than Nole for 95% of the match. He wasted too much energy jumping around like a monkey every time he broke serve. Unfortunately for him, he hit the wall in the middle of the 4th set and before he could catch his second wind, the match was over. Nole was fatigued from the third set but caught his second wind after the MTO.




B) The serve, rather than Djokovic was the biggest problem for Rafa in this final.

I think it's safe to say the 135 mph serve at last year's USO was either a fluke or he's afraid to go for it and hurt his shoulder. By the end of the match Nole himself was serving 90 mph first serves as well.


C) Also, no one seems to remember that Rafa had played three best of five matches against top quality opponents (rather than a Tipsarevic for example, with no retirement walkover into the semis etc.) in three days with only one day's rest before the finals.

Yes Muller was really tough. All serve except his serve wasn't effective in the slow conditions. Roddick had nothing left in the tank after not training all summer due to injury and could mount no challenge. Murray was gassed as well but at least he did win one set. Janko played great for 2.5 hours and when he retired it was still 3 hours and 20 minutes. Then Nole had to get through Roger which was no picnic.


D) In all my years of watching tennis I have never seen a player get so many huge lucky breaks on massive points from net cords, match after match after match.
Rocky, 9/14/11 1:01 AM

At best that's reaching at straws. At worst it's sour grapes. Nole is firmly in Rafa's head. That's how I explain the last two wins for Nole. End of...

I do agree that Rafa was screwed up by the scheduling and the weather in this USO and that may explain why he was gassed by the time they played the fourth set. Maybe fatigue in general contributed to his serving woes too. I do note that once Rafa is not confident, he tends to play more defensively, falling back to his clay court style of play. Well maybe fatigue, other than facing Nole, had made him felt less confident about his own game.

Whatever the reason, I have to say that the stars have aligned for Nole to be where he is this year. Even the weather has been in his favor, in addition to whatever luck that he may get. However, all these help will not mean anything had Nole not being ready to take them. Nole himself has been playing tennis out of this world, so there's no denying that up to this point, he plays better than the rest. Even if Rafa were to defend his USO title, there's no denying there who is the best player this year, and that is Nole.

The stars have aligned for Nole this year, no doubt about it, when Fedal are not in their tip top form. The same can be said of Rafa in 2008, when Fed had mono. Also the same can be said of Fed in 2009, when Rafa lost in the FO and was injured, giving Fed the opportunity to win the FO and Wimbledon and surpass Sampras in the slam count, and regain the no.1 ranking from Rafa. Some people even question Rafa's 2010 achievements, stating that he took advantage of the fact that Delpo was injured and out the whole year and the rest of the field were under performing.

Now all these things that happened are/were out of the control of the players, and when the opportunity arises for anyone to take advantage, whoever is ready for it would be the one who gets the benefit. We can't blame Rafa for taking advantage of Fed's mono; we can't blame Fed for taking advantage of Rafa's injury, and we can't blame Nole for taking advantage of Fedal's less than stellar form this year. They are where they are because they are ready to pounce once the opportunity/ies is/are opened to them.

I don't fault Nole for what he's achieved this year, luck or weather or whatever to his advantage, as he has got himself all ready to pounce once the opportunity presents itself.

I find it hard to believe Fed had mono. Maybe later on but certainly not when he was going five sets in the first round against Tipsarevic and made it to the finals that year if I remember correctly. If you can play like that, you just could not have mono. During that time he was supposed to have mono I could see no difference in his energy level or play - just that he lost some matches. Imo he lost those fair and square. So I don't see Rafa taking advantage of that. Nole probably also benefited from Rafa's leg injury at the Australian Open this year and that he played Murray in the final. Put Murray in the final against Rafa yesterday and even in his tired condition he would likely have won. Luck plays a huge part in tennis. Rafa has been blessed in many things but luck in tennis matches, draws, scheduling and net cords has not been a gift for him, imo, though I know some see it differently. It's amazing what he's been able to do without those kinds of luck. The fact that Djokovic has treed with his tennis all year is also unlucky and bad timing for Rafa. Now that he's dominant over the other players even when not at his best, along comes Novak finally playing out of his head all year. Where was this Novak when Federer was racking up the titles? He's only a year younger than Rafa. Now it's Federer's good fortune that Nole is able to slow down Rafa from catching up to him. Nole is racking up the titles now that Federer is older and slower (not to mention mentally weaker) and Rafa has been sick, injured and burned out. Rafa's feet were clearly causing a lot of pain in yesterday's match - that injury he had at Wimbledon is still not completely gone, unfortunately. It's a shame he has to go right on to Davis cup. What he needs most of all is time to heal, rest and do some work on sharpening up his game out of competition.

Calm down Rocky. I know sometimes what were happening out there seemed unfair but bear in mind that no one can control them sometimes. We can't control the fact that Fed was born much earlier than Rafa/Nole; and we can't control how they play. What Rafa faces now is a formidable rival in Nole, it's up to him to figure out how to overcome this Nole. To me, he cant go the physical way of outlasting or overpowering this Nole, for I think no one can outlast Nole at present, and only one guy, IMO, can overpower Nole and that is Delpo at his best. What Rafa has to do is to work on his tactics, a strategy and of course work on his own weaknesses, which to me are his serves, ROS, his backhand and his court positioning.(it seems like there's many things Rafa needs to improve on!) First and foremost is his own health and fitness. His body must be in tip top condition to be able to live with this Nole on the tennis court, so I hope he really can skip some tounnaments to rest and let his body recover before competing again.

Sanju, if you're talking about year end rankings, then the race points positions may be more helpful. Currently Nole top the list with 13,070 race points; Rafa with 8985; Murray with 5450 and Fed with 5170.

There're still Tokyo/Beijing, Shanghai, Basel/Valencia, Paris and then London. If I'm not wrong, Rafa will play Tokyo/Shanghai/Paris/London; Fed Shanghai/Basel/Paris/London, unless he changes his mind and decides to play either Beijing or Tokyo. Both Murray and Nole are playing five more tournaments if I'm not wrong, unless Nole pulls out of Basel.

Nole will be YE no.1 for sure; Rafa will most likely finish the year as no.2. The fight for no.3 is between Fed and Murray.

In terms of ranking points to defend for the rest of the year, Fed has the most points to defend, 3210 and it's likely that his points of 250 from Stockholm will drop off as I don't think he'll be playing there this year. Nole has 1650 and Rafa has 1635 points to defend. Murray has about 1715 points to defend if I'm not wrong. Nole and Rafa will most likely end the year as no.1 and no.2; Fed and Murray to determine the no.3 spot.

True, luckystar, luck is luck and no one is really in control, not even the lucky ones. Given that luck is a huge factor, it would be nice for the contestants to be treated fairly i.e. an honest draw and equal rest for all participants. That's the most we can ask. Obviously it was far from being a level playing field at the USO regarding the amount of rest allowed to each side of the draw so that should be improved.

In any case, it's very heartening to read Rafa's post-match interview. He is an example for us, a real hero at accepting whatever cards are dealt to him.

His health is indeed foremost. I've read that he has a congenital problem with one of his feet that has been the cause of much pain. It will be a joy for all his fans if he can get close back to total health next year.

I just have to say how much I dislike it when someone posts a reply to someone else and concludes by saying - "end of...". That is so incredibly insulting and dismissive. It is as if by answering and giving one's own opinion, anything and everything said by the other person, means absolutely nothing. It's a cheap shot and a trashy, classless way of trying to say that their opinion or argument is the only that counts. Sorry, that's just not the way it is. No one is God here and has the ultimate wisdom and knowledge.

It's not an excuse to acknowledge the disadvantage the bottom half of the men's draw had in having to play three matches in a row. There is a reason why there is day of rest in between these best three out of five matches. Roddick had nothing left in his quarterfinal match with Rafa. Isner gamely managed to make it four sets before he succumbed against Murray. It would be disingenuous to say that this wasn't at least a factor.

Rafa was fortunate to get his one day of rest, however I can't see why anyone would be surprised to see him run out of steam in the fourth set of the final. Nole had an extra day's rest and didn't have to play three days in a row, and he still looked exhausted in that fourth set. This was a physical, grinding, slugfest that took everything out of both guys.

I am proud of Rafa for fighting hard in that third set. He gave it everything he had in a losing cause. He also seemed to find some answers.

No Rafa fan need make any excuses for him. He played like c true champion and left it all out there on the court. I believe that he will work on his game and improve some aspects of it. He seemed to find his inner competitive fire and joy again in this tournament. It was a beautiful thing to see.

Agree with you NNY. As usual, número is quick to jump in about anything concerning Rafa. To think that playing three days in a row in a slam and then to have to deal with an opponent like Nole in the final and here número is doubting whether Rafa can be more tired than Nole? Ridiculous! That goes to show how biased número is against Rafa!

We are not here to argue about why Rafa lost. He lost because Nole played better than him, that's unquestionable, we all can see for ourselves. We're just concerned about Rafa being so gassed by the fourth set and the likely reason was due to the scheduling because of the weather.

To me Rafa lost because of poor tactical play (in addition to Nole playing well). Had he be more aggressive in the first two sets, he would have his chances as he did break Nole's serves a few times. He really had his chances, unlike some people here who think that Rafa had no chances at all. As well as Nole played at the USO and Wimbledon, Rafa did have his chances but he let his nerve overcame him. Ironically, out of the six losses this year against Nole, it's the two losses on clay, at Madrid and Rome, that Rafa was clearly outplayed. IW/Miami Rafa came close but his serves/fitness failed him. At Wimbledon his nerve got the better of him in critical moments, and at USO he played a tactically poor match. Winning one of those close ones, at IW or Miami, may do wonders for Rafa's confidence and who knows we may not have to see Rafa having mental block against Nole now!

lucky,

You always say what I am thinking. I did find myself amazed to realize that Rafa is more competitive against Nole on hard court. His two worst losses were at Madrid and Rome and were straight set losses.

At I/W Rafa came out aggressive, moving into the court to close out points quickly and changing up the rhythm. He had Nole completely flustered, but then his serve disappeared and his game fell apart completely. He battled valiantly in the Miami final, only to lose the tightest of contests in a third set tiebreak.

It is true that we are not questioning why Rafa lost. However, its fair and reasonable to think that playing three days in a row would take a toll. Rafa did himself no favors by retreating back to a battle of the baseline, a war of attrition. He started out playing very well in the first few games, but somehow lost his way. Something seems to get in the way of him using the right strategy and tactics.

We know that numero is biased against Rafa. That's no secret! However, when he takes it upon himself to try and embarrass others who may have a different opinion, ridiculing them and demeaning their words, that is when I want to speak up. If you have confidence in yourself, then you don't need to put others down or stop them from posting their own thoughts. I hope that Rocky won't be discouraged and will not feel that this is the "end of...", but will rather continue to participate in the discussion.

I think the third set gave Rafa some answers. He needs to have the recognition and awareness of what tactics and adjustments work against Nole. We may see it, but we are not on the court playing. If Rafa can find what works, then he can remember to use it the next time. He got to Nole in the third set and hurt him. Now he will have to remember what he did and seize the moment earlier in their next match, not when he is down two sets.

I believe that Rafa now knows he had his chances in those first two sets. He said that he lost his way and didn't continue playing that way. It's in his mind now and he will have to make a conscious effort to change his thinking the next time he meets Nole.

I think that Rafa learned something from this loss. That's a good thing. He has a goal now for next year. You have helped me get through this year and have been the voice of calm and reason. You were the one who said Rafa would probably not be able to turn it around this year, but would have his chance next year. You were right!

Yes NNY and that's why I take this loss calmly. We should be proud of Rafa, that given all the problems that he has this year, he still can remain in top two, reached nine finals, winning one slam and gets to the final of two others.

Rafa needs something to motivate him to surge for new heights in his career. Rafa and Fed are born different. Fed knows he's talented and so he wants to be no.1 and enjoys basking in his success and his own glory. He can fight out there if need be, but he won't mind having an easy day, as long as anytime he can showcase his brilliance. For Rafa, as talented as he is, his uncle Toni never allows him to bask in his own glory but emphasize that one needs to be humble
and be hard working. Rafa is also born with a competitive spirit. He always wants to win in anything that he does. His other uncle Michael Angel once commented about Rafa's competitive nature even when Rafa was a child; when they were playing a ball game where Rafa was made to catch or intercept the ball while the adults were passing the ball around, Rafa just won't give up no matter how many times he tried. His uncle was impressed by this and found that Rafa was different from any other children, who by now might be crying already after failing to get the ball. There goes to show that Rafa is really born with a competitive spirit. To Rafa, the most important thing is the competition, the results come secondary to him. His concern is to push himself to fulfill his own potential and as long as he feels that he can still improve, he'll go out there to practise hard to improve. So, this Nole problem is one new challenge for Rafa to face and to overcome. I like his attitude and his warrior spirit, and that's why I'm attracted to him and his tennis.

numero, 9/14/11 1:37 AM

That might be the most to the point, articulate, well thought out, valid and completely nullifying counterargument post I've ever seen you write. Why don't you make comments like those more often?

I wouldn't say it's fair to say that Roger and Rafa have been out of sorts this season. Nadal won Monte Carlo and Barcelona, and oh yeah also the French Open. He reached the finals of Wimbledon and the US open. All 6 times Djokovic has beaten him have been in finals. That's 9 finals reached this year (5 of them masters tournaments) and who knows, he may well have won all 9 tournaments had Djokovic been out of the equation. That's an amazingly awesome year for ANYBODY, I don't care what your name is. As for Federer, as he gets older he seems to be more streaky. But there's no denying how well he played against Djokovic in the semis, well enough to have broken serve and have 2 match points of his own. There was nothing he could do about the first point, the second point lost seemed a combination of bad luck and possibly nerves (if you can believe it, even CherrylMurray said he choked it away). Federer even handed Djokovic his only "real" loss of the season to date. And Federer himself said semis, finals, quarters, semis is a great year for him.
What can you say? Djokovic has managed to reach his full potential (it seems) and combined with a mountain of confidence, nobody on the planet can beat him. Except Roddick, he hasn't played him yet :)

As for Del Potro at his best possibly being able to hit through Djokovic, I think Djokovic's 3-0 record pre-2011 Super-Novak speaks for itself, one of the victories coming in 2009, Del Potro's year.

numero, 9/14/11 1:37 AM

That might be the most to the point, articulate, well thought out, valid and completely nullifying counterargument post I've ever seen you write. Why don't you make comments like those more often?

ts38 , 9/14/11 8:30 AM

Couldn't agree more.

ts38, if you think that Fed winning only one 250 event this year is in stellar form, think again! If you think that Rafa is in stellar form at the beginning of the year, then maybe you should refer to the beginning of his 2009, where he won AO, IW and reached the final of Rotterdam. Rafa normally doesn't start well in the early part of the season on the hard courts that I understand, but to start it with illness followed by an injury is definitely not starting it in stellar form. Even during Rafa's clay season this year, at Montr Carlo, he didn't start off well and we noticed that his movement of clay was slow this year. He himself admitted it. Again I won't call that in stellar form. Wimbledon? He was shaky in the third and fourth rounds, similar to his second and third rounds last year. Come the QF and SF, he was OK against Sod and brilliant against Murray last year; he was Ok against Fish and Murray this year, losing a set to each of them. I won't consider Rafa in stellar form too this Wimbledon. The US hardcourt season and the USO? Montreal and Cincy this year was a disaster for Rafa, and Rafa being broken so many times in so matches during the USO this year, compared to last year's USO where he was only broken twice before the final? And you think this year he's in stellar form?

Nobody can deny that Nole is playing great this year, his only two losses this year speaks for itself. However, just ask yourself, if Fedal were playing at their 2010 level, do you think Nole still could beat them that many times? Chances are he'll beat them some times and for the other times, they'll beat him too, and it won't be as lopsided as now.

It's nothing wrong taking advantage of the opportunities opened out to you, as long as you're good enough to take them.

Regarding Delpo, ts38, did you watch that FO round three match between Delpo and Nole? If you watched it, then it's not difficult to notice that during that match, Delpo had frustrated Nole so much with his deep penetrating groundstrokes, and mind you it's a not yet back to his best level Delpo vs a Nole who had reached his full potential (according to you). If I'm not wrong, Delpo and Nole had not played against each other after Delpo won his USO and before he went for his long injury break. The 3-0 H2H was before Delpo won his USO.

As great as Nole is this year, do noticed that he did have his narrow escapes too, as recent as his match against Tipsy at the USO, not to mention the SF against Fed. On clay, he also had his escape against Bellucci and Murray. So, even when Nole's is at the top of his game now, that doesn't mean that he won't face the risk of being beaten by his opponent.

Fed, Rafa and now Nole, each of them does benefit from any dips in form, illnesses, injuries that happen to their rivals. As I said, it's nothing wrong siezing the opportunities opened to you and make the best out of it.

Big 3 had a fantastic USO.
Nole and Fed were superb and really entertained us, and Rafa was battling hard in the final and shown us the fighting spirit.
Fedal could not win this one, but they were very close to doing it.

Murray was the big.. let down.

He wasted too much energy jumping around like a monkey every time he broke serve.
numero
, 9/14/11 1:37 AM

Didn't take long for numero to weigh in with the insults against Rafa, did it? No surprise there.....

What is surprising, and disappointing, is to see some Nole fans hanging onto numero's coattails, insults and all. By all means, agree with reasoned anti-Rafa arguments,..............but insults.............?

It has been such a pleasure to see the civility in the post match comments by nearly all fans regardless of who they support, criticizing and praising both Nole and Rafa, civilly...................but no, this is not good enough for numero and his ilk, he wants the gutter, where he feels comfortable!

Well, some of us are not........................euw!

RITB: Agreed that insults aren't benefiting anyone. As a Nole fan, comments like what Rocky made irk me to no end, and it was nice to see someone stepping up and addressing that. Apart from those few sentences, it was an articulate (and a much more polite) way of replying to Rocky's post that I would've done. That is what I 'agreed' to in my post above, not any comments degrading Rafa.

Anyway, most fans have given Nole his credit so I'll just ignore posts like those from now on.

I would like to make a comment about this whole thing about Novak making the best advantage of the dip in form and injuries of his co players. A greating sporting career is not about coming out onto the field and hitting the ball as hard as you can , it is about hitting the ball efficiently , effectively , so that you can keep doing it for another 10 years!!. The player and his uncle (sorry coach ) should look at the sport holistically. Longevity should be integrated into the style of the game , to allow for consistent level of fitness throughout your career so as to take your game or make adjustments to overcome whatever challenge is presented. Not taking care of this aspect will let oppurtunistic players say for example from Switzerland or Serbia wait till the player has worn himself to bits and then pounce , sometimes leading to 6 wins in a row. This is also part of sports and also a very conventional way of winning and these wins are without asterisks.

mriiidula
, 9/14/11 10:42 AM

Thank you for your post, mriiidula,.....................like I said, heated criticism of any player and his game is fine, love the jousting! But insults against players and other posters just get my goat (no pun intended).................of course I know they reflect more on the posters themselves, but I do not think we should tolerate them...................and they are against house rules!

I think it's time we posters called out the offenders directly instead of waiting for the moderators to do it.................................it's our site too!

Nirv, interesting take. As I said, we can't blame anyone from taking advantage of any opportunity opened to them. I don't think any Rafa fans would complain about Nole taking over as no.1. As far as Rafa is concerned, he has faced some difficulties this year, though not as severe as those he faced in 2009.

Have you wondered why Rafa was doing better on the hard courts than on the clay courts against Nole? IMO, that's because his clay court game is exactly where Nole can truly exploit on. Rafa takes a defensive position on the clay court by standing too far back from the baseline. While this style may work against any slower opponents and when Rafa was younger and quicker around the court; once a player as quick as Nole appears, who can take the ball early and control the rallies, Rafa would be pushed to defend most of the time and he had to cover so much ground being so far behind the baseline.

Now at IW and Miami, he was playing a proper hard court game, standing closer to the baseline, covering lesser ground and taking control of some of the rallies and pushed Nole back in order to come forward to the net to finish the point. Though he lost to Nole, at least he took a set each time from Nole.

We can't fault Rafa (and uncle Toni) for allowing Rafa to play the way he played on the clay courts, as traditionally clay courters play that way. Right now, Rafa has improved his grass and hard court games, and he no longer needs to retreive so many balls but instead think of ways to play more aggressively and control the points. However, I noticed that once Rafa is lacking in confidence, he tends to revert back to his clay court game, even on the hard courts, and ended up playing a defensive game. This is where I feel he needs to change. When not confident, instead of spending time defending, might as well go all out to attack as there's nothing to lose anyway since he's not confident of winning.

Fed, Nole and Delpo all grow up on clay. However, they prefers the hard courts and so their games are tailored for the hard courts and we don't see them taking defensive positions on the courts. To me that's the major difference between Rafa and them, the mindset of a clay court player vs. the mindset of a hard court player.

One more thing nirv, if you think Rafa is the only one who hits the ball as hard as possible, go watch how hard Sod hits the ball. Not only Sod, but also Delpo, Berdych, Nole , Verdasco, Gonzo and Fed. All these players hit the ball with force, it's not like Fed, for eg, is hitting some powder puff shots! In fact Taylor Dent, commentator at the USO this year, had confirmed that Fed's forehand was as forceful as Rafa's, having played against both of them.

I don't understand why people always associate the way Rafa hit to ball to his injuries. As far as Rafa is concerned, he hardly suffer any shoulder injuries despite his topspin forehand. Yes he did lots of running and who won't injure their knees running so much on the hard courts? We see Ferrer, Simon and Monfils having knee injuries and out of competition for some periods too, and other than Ferrer, the other two didn't even play as many matches as Rafa!

RITB: I think you are being a bit too harsh on Numero and your penultimate para constitutes more of an insult than anything Numero has said on this thread.

For sure he enjoys winding people up and fighting his corner but it's wrong to lump him in with the fanatics intent on causing trouble - who mercifully for the time being have decampted elsewhere to spread their poison.

You are right in saying the two threads covering the final have been a pleasure to read and take part in. Let's keep it that way.

ed251137
, 9/14/11 11:44 AM


"..................................and your penultimate para constitutes more of an insult than anything Numero has said on this thread." What part would that be? I provided an exact quote of the part of numero's post which I found insulting. Please grant me the same courtesy. Of course if numero feels insulted by anything I have said I will readily apologise to him. But I repeat, I will not hesitate calling him or anybody out if they use words like monkey against players or other posters.

You may find the use of such words endearing........................I find them insulting.

Some people are obviously not aware of the FACT that Numero has repeatedly accused Rafa of taking drugs and can never get in early enough to call Rafa names and hurl all sorts of abuse his way. If Numero cops any abuse, it's because the tard deserves it!

On that note, congrats to Nole's fans. The great fighter is clearly the best player right now and has raised the bar yet again. Rafa being the 2nd best player is still a good achievement and no shame losing to the best player right now. He'll just have to return to the drawing board and find away to keep fighting. At least Rafa is not having the shocking year he had in 2009.

I prefer to give numero the benefit of the doubt on this occasion. IMO his use of 'Jumping up and down like a monkey' was a simile not an insult.

And Jean - you are not slow to hurl insults yourself.

point taken, ed251137..................................this is what happens when you have a "history" of .................em.....................impolite discourse.......................people do not cut you any slack.

Not with people who ask for it!

I understand where you are coming from. But if someone is making an effort to reform we need to overlook past indiscretions, no?

The assumption that Rafa will have a short career is until now just an assumption. Rafa is already ten years in the tour now and there's no sign that he'll retire anytime soon. He may have his injuries but so do others.

Murray has missed the FO/Wimbledon in 2007 due to injuries; Delpo has missed one whole year of slams due to his wrist injuries; Tsonga missed last year's USO; Monfils missed one slam and Gasquet missed Wimbledon last year, all due to injuries. They have not even play as many matches as Rafa, are they going to have short careers too?

To me a career lasting thirteen to fifteen years is considered a long career. Not everyone can have as long a career like Connors or Agassi. Let's wait and see whether Rafa will have a long or a short career.

ed251137
, 9/14/11 1:28 PM

Gosh, you won't let go, will ya? Okay, I will give numero the benefit of the doubt this time....................numero, I apologise if I "slapped" you around in my post of 9/14/11 10:28 AM. ed251137 says you are reforming your ways.. I will take his word for it............

OK Numero? You are now on probation :-)

Simon Weed at his best, enjoy: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/tennis/simon-reed/article/6938/

Nobody was doubting Nadal's form last year when he actually won everything. Yet he had the same results in Australia, performed even better this year in Indian Wells and Miami, better result in Queens, and even equaled his progress in Cincinnati. His only difference was losing the first match in Montreal, but I say that was due more to bad luck (fresh burned fingers and an inspired Dodig). Even while winning Wimbledon last year he was in a lot more trouble against Robin Haase and Philip Petzschner. At least this time he lost sets to in form people inside the top 10. Despite how good Nadal CAN play, I've yet to see a year where he progresses as far in every tournament on every surface as he has this year. The only thing in sports that matters is either that big "W" or the big "L", and this year he has more W's than I've ever seen.
With Federer, like I admitted before, he's been much more streaky and inconsistent. He still has it in him to produce the tennis, (as was displayed at the French Open this year), but he can't seem to put it all together every time anymore. But he still came damned close to doing it again at the US Open.

ts38, his general level of play has gone down; he even struggle on clay and I'm not even talking about his losses to Nole!

He was pushed to the limit in the second round at Rome by Lorenzi! And for the first time in his career, he was pushed to five sets at RG, in the first round against Isner! And he continued to struggle against low ranked player Andujar in the next round!

Haase and Petchzner were both better players on the grass courts, as they possess more than a hugh serve, definitely more difficult opponents that Muller and Delpo on grass. I seriously don't see Rafa doing better this year than last year at Wimbledon.

But you have to admit that Andujar was also on fire when he played Nadal. I guess my overall point is the fact that no matter what his level of play relative to his best, he's still getting all the W's. If you wanna look at individual matches, that'd be like saying Federer was out of sorts in 2006 because he squeaked out wins, saving match points against Olivier Rochus(!) on GRASS in Halle, and against Andy Roddick(!) at the Tennis Masters Cup. No matter, he still went on to win both those tournaments with no losses and that's what his near perfect 2006 season be remembered for. Same with Nadal this season.

Am I the only person that thinks Nadal is playing very well this year? I don't think his level of play has dropped much if at all this year, last year Nadal was the best player by a country mile, but in all fairness last year there wasn't much competition. Fed and Murray both were poor post Australian open, Del Potro and Davydenko, both players who can beat Nadal were injured, and Djokovic wasn't playing like he is now.

The explanation for Djokovic winning all there matches against Nadal this year is simply that he has stepped it up and now is overall a better player, his serve, backhand, and return of serve are superior. I'd say Nadal has a slightly better forehand and is a bit better at the net though. And now hes consistently beating Nadal he is clearly in Nadals head, I mean Nadal played well in the final and tried his hardest against Djokovic and managed one tie breaker set and i've seen Djokovic play better this year, he could barely serve in the forth set because of that back injury.
But anyway, I keep reading people reading what Nadal needs to do to beat Djokovic and about Nadals injuries etc but Djokovic is simply better right now, theres no two ways about it.
I was thinking there might be a matchup problem similar to the one Federer has with Nadal, does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Native New Yorker wrote:

"It's not an excuse to acknowledge the disadvantage the bottom half of the men's draw had in having to play three matches in a row. There is a reason why there is day of rest in between these best three out of five matches. Roddick had nothing left in his quarterfinal match with Rafa. Isner gamely managed to make it four sets before he succumbed against Murray. It would be disingenuous to say that this wasn't at least a factor.

Rafa was fortunate to get his one day of rest, however I can't see why anyone would be surprised to see him run out of steam in the fourth set of the final. Nole had an extra day's rest and didn't have to play three days in a row, and he still looked exhausted in that fourth set. This was a physical, grinding, slugfest that took everything out of both guys"

Exactly!!! We saw what happened with Isner and Roddick. McEnroe was saying Murray was tired in the semi against Rafa. With all the extra rest and retirements from injured players that Djokovic had he was still hurting and tired in the 4th set. It's mind boggling how anyone could expect Rafa, with his way tougher schedule, not to have been exhausted. The huge loss of pace on his first serves is ample evidence that he was tired from the beginning of the match. It was only his great effort and fighting abilities that helped make it a tough match. After Djokovic started feeling some pain in his back he was serving at the same speeds that Rafa served for the entire match. If Rafa has not been exhausted he would have been able to take advantage but as it was he had nothing left in the tank, thanks to the inhuman, grueling schedule that he and the players in the bottom half of the draw were forced to endure.

In addition, even though he's been getting to so many finals and the losses against Djokovic were very close and hard fought, Rafa has not played anywhere near his best level all year. Novak, otoh, has been at the top of his game and he will have a harder time next year should Rafa succeed in getting back closer to his best.

ts38 and rbenett, I wonder whether you two did actually watched Rafa's matches last year and this year, or were you two only looking at the results and just comparing. If you've watched his matches ( I did watch all his matches, yes all!) you'll realize that his foot speed this year is slower than last year, especially on clay; his serve has gone haywire; his backhand has deteriorated; his fitness has deteriorated. It has nothing to do with the rest of the field, it's something to do with him.

It all began during Doha where he had a virus infection. He was sweating profusely during matches then and this continued into the AO and we know he lost there after injuring his thigh. His first tournament after his injury was IW, and even though he reached the final, he was struggling throughout, I mean, he even had difficulty putting away Somdev; struggling against Karlovic and allowed Delpo to dominate over him for a while in the SF before waking up and finally put him away. His final against Nole started off well and he won the first set but the nightmare started in the second set, his first serve just went missing and he was in self destruction mode throughout the third set. I've never seen Rafa serving so poorly, only once when he injured his shoulder and had to retired and that was at Cincy 2007. Come Miami, his level improved but it seemed that his fitness was not back to his normal level yet. I mean how often you see Rafa melted in the heat, out of gas and according to his word, he had nothing left, during the final match. Even under the hot Australian sun, I have never seen him looked so out of gas, exhausted.

His clay season, no comparison to last year, where at MC, he almost finished everyone off with a breadstick or a bagel. He only lost two sets the whole clay season; compare that with this year and you can see a vast difference, and I'm not talking about his matches with Nole but his matches with the rest.

If you can't see the difference, then why not look at the stats regarding his serves especially. This USO, his serve was the most disappointing part of his game. He could hardly serve above 120mph and what a difference it made, compared to last year. His serve was broken in every match he played at the USO this year and he couldn't rely on his serve to earn cheap points and we see how hard he had to work to win points.

If you think he played at the same level as last year, I suggest you go and watch his matches at MC, Rome, RG and the USO.

Regarding the field last year and this year: Davy and Delpo out injured last year, but this year are they a threat?? Nole last year was not the same as the Nole this year. Of course, we all can see for ourselves and he's the one who makes the big difference this year, and that's why we are arguing or discussing here!

It's so easy to say that had this or that happened, Rafa won't be able to win this or that last year. The fact is Rafa is always there last year but players like Davy, Delpo or whoever are not there. How do we guarantee that had Davy or Delpo being there, they'll sure to beat Rafa? Davy had not done well at the slams, QF at the hard court slams and SF at RG were the best he could do; Delpo, can he maintain his 2009USO level throughout 2010 if he's fit and healthy? Again nobody can guarantee that.

We can't turn back the clock and get all these players to play against each other in 2010. It's just like Nole is playing great now, but we can never know the Rafa of 2010 vs this Nole 2011, who is better. Or the Fed of 2006 vs Nole 2011, who's better? We can only speculate, and IMO, Rafa of 2010 is better on clay and grass over Nole 2011; Nole 2011 better than Rafa on the hard courts but at the USO, Rafa 2010 vs Nole 2011 it'll be a close fight.

Nadal did play 3 matches in a row, but the total time on court was about 7 1/2 hours which is typical of what he would do in 3 consecutive matches in a masters 1000 while Djokovic was on court almost 10 hours in his 3 matches before the final. The day that Nadal should of had off was when he played Roddick and that was like a practice session for Nadal. It was less than 2 hours and Rafa would have been on the practice court for that amount of time anyway if he didn't have a match so the claim that somehow Nadal had it tougher is nonsense. The potential for it to be a tougher schedue was there, but he dispatched Muller and Roddick very efficiently so there was no impact. I agree that Murray had it tougher because he could not put Isner away quickly.

I see that there has been some continued discussion about numero's comments on this site. I posted my opinion about the latest sarcastic dig from numero. While I wouldn't lump numero in with the likes of fleur and sienna, there is an underlying nastiness and a personal edge to some comments that really ticks me off.

I don't think it serves any purpose to denigrate another poster. Numero has made fun of nadline and others, adopting a pious attitude of superiority that is unseemly and self-indulgent.

Then there are those like ts39 and miriidula who come on here and applaud numero's nastiness. Rocky has just as much right to post here as anyone else. Also, no one here gets to decide unilaterally when the discussion is over, as in numero's self-indulgent use of the phrase "end of...". As though now that numero has spoken, all further discussion must cease.

Why don't we let people have their say without trying to demean their comments or embarrass them on this site? Fleur and sienna were pretty blunt in their personal attacks on people here, however there is a more insidious kind of attack in which the person replies and then adds a derisive comment. If you have to do that and can't just make your argument, then you are the one with the problem.

rafaisthebest,

You don't owe anyone an apology! Keep saying what you think in your own way. Please don't feel the need to edit your comments.

Sorry, it should be ts38!

In regards to serving, Djokovic, Nadal and Federer all had fewer aces this year compared to last year. Is this random, a coincidence or was the surface slower this year as the players have stated? Either way it cancels out so all this talk about if player X was serving like he did at this tournament last year or in that match then it shoulda coulda woulda been different blah blah blah.

Excuse me Skinny, did you see Rafa trying to serve 120+ mph serves but end up netting them?Has that got to do with the surface?? Is not like he's having very high percentage of first serves. The problem is clearly with the way he serves rather than the surface. Now had he had a more accurate placement with pace, that will increase his chances of getting some cheap points. Is not like we are not seeing any aces during this tournament, and the surface is still not as slow as that of the AO.

Also three matches totalling seven hours but on consecutive days vs three matches totalling ten hours but with one day rest in between, which is tougher? Then why are people giving excuses last year that Nole was tired in the final, when he was also given a one day rest before the final?

Well I'm sorry you feel that way NNY. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I read a post I look for the substance and the mindless insults just kind of go right past me while I pay as much attention to them as I do a single fleck of sand on a beach. If I were to get worked up over every time somebody berated one of my guys I'd probably post 20 times as often as I already do. I don't really care about numero's insults or rafaisthebest's counter insults or whoever wants to get into a measuring contest. But I stand by previous comment about numero's perfect arguments, sarcasm or no sarcasm, they were completely sound and I've yet to see anybody be able to rebuke them, because I don't think anyone can.

ts38,

The truth is that there were good points made by Rocky and numero. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Rocky was right about Rafa's serve being a problem. Does anyone here seriously believe that this is the way he normally serves? Rafa himself said that his serving was bad. I don't know if it's a mechanical issue or what, but that is the one aspect of his game that concerned me the most before the final.

What numero did was to summarily dismiss everything Rocky said with sarcastic replies. That doesn't equate to smarts and and a coherent argument as far as I am concerned. I do think that Nole was a big part of Rafa's problem. He seems to go back to playing way behind the baseline, abandoning his aggressive game of moving into the court and closing out points at net.

For the record, I don't agree with Rocky's point that illness or injury played any part in Rafa losing the final. However, I don't think that numero bringing up Fed's mono, was exactly a stroke of genius. I found his answers to Rocky's points, rather pedestrian and uninspired. The sarcastic jab has become numero's trademark on this site. You don't need a brain to do that. Now should I say "end of...", to indicate that the discussion is over as far as I am concerned?

As far as Rocky's comment about Rafa and the other players having to play on consecutive days, I think that was entirely reasonable and relevant. I am not saying that it is why Rafa lost the match. However, to pretend that it wasn't at least a disadvantage, is disingenuous.

Last year Nole fans were screaming loud and long about the unfairness of Nole having one day after his long five set semifinal against Fed. Fortunately, Mother Nature intervened and it rained on Sunday, giving Nole an additional day of rest. So let's not insult each other's intelligence by pretending that it's only Rafa fans bringing up this issue.

It's not like numero discovered gravity with his reply to Rocky. As I said initially, my main objection was the totally patronizing and insulting tone of the phrase "end of...". I still maintain that everyone is allowed to continue a discussion as long as they see it and not end it when numero decides it's time.

I really have nothing more to say about the issue. I have made my point several times. Either you hear me or you don't. Substance combined with cheap shots at people is not my idea of an admirable argument.

NNY, did u c that Tignor has brought a book out about the rivalry between Borg and MaC? It was reviewed in my paper and sounds so fascinating will probably buy it. Tignor suggests that Borg's retirement actually did for Mac as well. Apart from '84, the year after, Mac was never the same again and his behaviouur on court, apart from everything else, just got worse and worse..

I don't really care about numero's insults or rafaisthebest's counter insults or whoever wants to get into a measuring contest.
ts38
, 9/15/11 6:22 AM

I am writing this directly to you ts38 because you mentioned me in your post...............don't worry, love, you won't see me responding to any of your posts again (never done before either) because I really do not care about them. Nothing original, nothing inspiring......................

You go your way, I go mine............................

Novak congrats for victory ,

WE ARE EXPECTING TO WIN 3 GRAND SLAMS AGAIN IN 2012(including F.O)
we all know you can do it

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/alexwillis/100019485/why-novak-djok ovic-is-doing-to-rafael-nadal-what-nadal-has-done-to-roger-federer/


Tourney's over..........................we can now go back to reading "experts'" takes.............

Quotes from luckystar :

"It has nothing to do with the rest of the field, it's something to do with him."

Then :

"Nole last year was not the same as the Nole this year. Of course, we all can see for ourselves and he's the one who makes the big difference this year.."

So which is it?

"It all began during Doha where he had a virus infection. He was sweating profusely during matches then and this continued into the AO.."

Well it's his stupidity that worsened his health. All he had to do was pull out of Doha when he got the fever. Possibly thinking that he's invincible, he played on and made it worse by getting to the semi in singles and winning the doubles. As far as AO, it was likely that 'scuba diving' shirt that caused him to sweat so much. Remember when he used a thinner less tight-fitting one against Cilic the sweating problem reduced greatly.

"...first tournament after his injury was IW, and even though he reached the final, he was struggling throughout.."

He struggled last year at IW too even before the match with Ivan so no difference.

"His clay season, no comparison to last year, where at MC, he almost finished everyone off with a breadstick or a bagel."

He didn't play anybody in the top 1000000000000000000000000 until the final last year so that may account for the beat-downs. This year he played a much improved Murray in the semi.

"...then why not look at the stats regarding his serves especially. This USO, his serve was the most disappointing part of his game. He could hardly serve above 120mph and what a difference it made, compared to last year."

The only GS in his life in which he regularly served 135 mph was USO 2010. So until he repeats it I'm going to think either it's a fluke or that he's taking precautions not to injure his shoulder since that was the reason he listed for pulling out of Paris last year.

I do agree with this statement you made:

Nole last year was not the same as the Nole this year. luckystar, 9/15/11 4:08 AM

I think that's the main reason Rafa didn't get his clay GS (3 Masters and RG) and 2 or 3 GS this year.

lucky

Obviously the surface doesn't change the ball speed coming off the racquet, but it certainly changes a player's approach to the serve. The faster the surface the better the risk/reward for serving big. Players like Djoko and Nadal have the option of changing their serve strategy to suit the surface and player's return ability. For example if a player is hurting you on 2nd serve returns it makes sense to lower the speed and put in a higher % of 1st serves. One dimensional players like Karlovic don't have a choice. They have to go for a big 1st serve whether they are playing on the slowest clay or the fastest grass.

Here are some stats that show that both Djokovic and Nadal had slower serves in final this year compared to last year. We can speculate as to why, but that doesn't change the fact that neither served as big as last year. My opinion is that it is a combination of the slower surface(alters your strategy), excellent 2nd serve returning(forces opponent to put in more 1st serves) and the physical nature of the match. Both players were serving slower as the match went on.

2010 USO Final
Djoko ave 1st/2nd serve speed 117 / 94
Nadal ave 1st/2nd serve speed 116 / 88

2011 USO final
Djoko ave 1st/2nd serve speed 111/88
Nadal ave 1st/2nd serve speed 107/81

@nirv02 (great poster)

Spoken like a true fan of Roger,
Do you judge this by his ability in the past to stop fererro, roddick, hewitt etc
No, I doubt he would be able to stop this Novak easily,
But he could and can occasionally stop him now as he has improved his game
Impressively from his earlier years in a weak era.
Sosueme, 9/13/11 4:13 AM

ridiculous statement to make because you say every player up to 2011 doesn't count, no matter how many slams they win because novak wasn?t playing then? So borg?s slams don?t coun?t because novak not playing then?
Laver's don't count because novak not playing then? It?s nonsense speaking this. Every era has their rival?s and you can?t not count the slams they have won because they beat them in the final and that?s what counts. Doesn?t matter who the player is, all no.1?s in roger?s early wins, all strong and punish?ing players. Every era could be said to be a wea?k er?a prior to 2010. They were what they were at the time. Shows the immens?ity of Federer?s skills.

I tend to agree with numero (weird, isn't it? :) ...Nole was simply better than Rafa out there...Rafa did not play well enough for Nole, he was defensive and Nole was just killing him with his ROS...all these analyzing makes no sense as Rafa did try to change his approach but by the time he started implementing his aggressive game he ran out of gas...Nole is better this year in all the aspects of the game...better ROS, better fitness, his backhand works extraordinary well whereas Rafa's doesn't...Nole's tactics was to play aggressive which forced Rafa to stay way behind the baseline...and of course, Nole's confidence is up in the sky whereas Rafa's is very low...however, I still think Rafa played much better than at Wimby and if he wasn't tired he might have taken the match to five sets...even then I think Nole would have beaten him as he was too good for him on that given day...

it has nothing to do with Rafa's illness at the beginning of the year, or his serve speed...it wasn't Rafa's best day (he played much better against Murray and Roddick IMO, although both of them make easier opponents for Rafa) and Nole performed consistently well...You must remember one important thing: Nole was always a bad match for Rafa and even before Rafa had a hard time beating him...it was Nole's head and breathing problems which made him lose their previous close matches...that's gone now and Rafa will have to bring out his best and even more if he wants to beat this renewed Nole...also Rafa has to believe he can do it...I am optimistic and I believe Rafa is getting there...it took him a while to start beating Fed...the time is also needed for him to figure out this Nole but he will...

VAMOS RAFA!!!

Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the flowers gone?
Girls have picked them every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

número, first of all, do you know what is the main subject of my post? I'm discussing with ts38 about whether Rafa's form has dropped this year compared to 2010, that allowed Nole to become so dominant over Rafa. Of course in determining that, I have to talk about Rafa vs the rest of the field, excluding Nole, for the two years in order to make the comparison.

Your point about Rafa not being wise to continue playing in Doha when he's sick is irrelevant, as it's outside the scope of my discussion. Also I did mention that he fared better this year in IW/Miami compared to last year even though he was struggling so again you are merely emphasizing what I've already said.

Now at MC this year, did he breadstick of bagel anyone this year? The field is about the same as last year with the exception of Murray. So again you showed that you can't even bring up a relevant point for discussion but straight away jump into conclusion that he beat up nobody last year at MC. Ferrer, Verdasco, they are all there last year and this year, so are we not comparing the same field of players, except Murray?

He was not serving well this whole USO, it's obvious and as a result his serve was broken practically in every match. He hardly served about 120mph without making errors. Whether his 135mph serve is a fluke or not, I do not know, but most likely he won't serve that speed often. He may serve between 115-125 mph in normal circumstances where I think he feels the most comfortable.

the flower is here.

luckystar, why don?t you accept that rafa is struggling. He is in decline with los?ng 6 finals this year to novak. Not even roger has done that!

Yes, rafa is struggling. you deny it, you look stupid.

Fleur, are you having comprehension problem as well? If you don't understand what the discussion is all about, stay away.

lucky,

In your first post you did not specify Rafa vs the rest of the field EXCLUDING NOLE. You're changing your words to try to save face I guess. It's all nit picky anyway. The long and the short of it is thankfully we did not have to watch Rafa hoist 3 GS trophies this year. Tennis is the winner with Nole's success.

Dear número, i'll appreciate that you first look at some of my earlier posts, addressed to ts38, to have a knowledge of what's the subject matter that we're discussing about, before you going about nickpicking this and that to question me! I'm not obliged to answer any of your questions anyway as the answers are all in the earlier posts. Who needs to save face now? Next time do follow the discussion first before jumping in. BTW, who's talking about 3GS for Rafa? Again you went off topic!

I'm not obliged to answer any of your questions anyway luckystar, 9/16/11 1:48 AM

I'm not asking you questions; just giving my opinions. When does anybody on TT care about staying on topic anyway?

Here's another off topic tidbit for you. All this talk about Rafa winning GS at any early age and her he is at age 25.5 and has the exact same number of GS as Roger did at that age : 10. Cheers to the downside.;)

I should give you a break here. I know Nole overtaking your boy and winning almost everything was hard to swallow so I'll not rub salt in your wounds. Truce.

Hello número. When you're addressing your post to me, I'll appreciate that you stay on topic. You're free to express your opinions as long as you do not direct your post at me!

There's nothing to be sour about Nole surpassing Fedal now, unlike some Fed fans, especially número, who's such a sore loser when Rafa overtook Fed to be no.1, taking cheap jabs at Rafa all the time, worrying all the time that Rafa may surpass Fed's slam counts. Where did you see me taking cheap jabs at Nole? In fact in all my posts above, I do recognize and acknowledge Nole's achievements this year.

BTW, my discussion with ts38, and rbenett started when we were at the topic of 'seizing the opportunities when they arise', nothing to do with 'sour' or 'sore' as you suggested.

Numero is as brilliant as a poster as Fed is as brilliant as a tennis player... :)

I hope Rafans don't posts excuses for Rafa because in the past, they were constantly saying Fedfans made excuses especially on the h2h thing.

I wonder if Rafa would rather trade his h2h lead against Nole for a single win against Nole this year. I am very sure he would.

After watching the replayof the match, I noticed something. Nole is deliberately taking pace off his serve and groundstrokes against Rafa. Why? Because he knows Rafa is standing way behind the baseline. So slower-than-average but deep strokes will

1) make it harder for Rafa to hit a winner because of there is no pace to work on
2) make Rafa be more concerned on the timing of hitting his shots rather and in most cases, Rafa will opt for just the simple ball back.

Fed doesn't have the patience to do this and always falls into the trap Rafa put for him which is to attack him with power.

Nole just is tactically smarter than Rafa and does not have the perfection-obsessed problem that Fed and Murray(more serious) have. Nole doesn't mind winning it ugly.

That's why he is currently the no.1 by a long way.

I don't think there're many Rafa fans making any excuses for Rafa's losses. In fact what torres you mentioned about the reasons why Nole beat Rafa, had been discussed till death already on this thread. There's no excuses about the H2H between Rafa and Nole; unlike SOME Fed fans, who always give excuses, that Rafa's H2H vs Fed was in Rafa's favor because most of their encounters were on clay. Did you hear Rafa fans making any excuses about Rafa vs Nole H2H?

"ridiculous statement to make because you say every player up to 2011 doesn't count, no matter how many slams they win because novak wasn?t playing then? So borg?s slams don?t coun?t because novak not playing then?"

I said THAT!?!
No!
Really?
It may be a 'ridiculous statement to make' to an incoherent imbecile such as
yourself. But as the point I was making is clearly lost to you, which had nothing to do with Borg or Slams (?!) but rather with making snap assumptions guided purely by age.....
I'll just say.... good luck Fleur!
As you shall certainly need it in this life.....

please, of course not about the h2h but what's all this mentioning that Rafa did not have as much rest as Nole prior to the final and also that Rafa is not at his best.

Rafa is suppressed from playing his best because of Nole's tactics.

Excuses are excuses even at any topic.

I would like to give some quotes from my previous posts, and then close the topic that I've been discussing.

'Nobody can deny that Nole is playing great this year, his only two losses this year speaks for itself. However, just ask yourself, if Fedal were playing at their 2010 level, do you think Nole still could beat them that many times? Chances are he'll beat them some times and for the other times, they'll beat him too, and it won't be as lopsided as now.

It's nothing wrong taking advantage of the opportunities opened out to you, as long as you're good enough to take them.'

Luckystar, 9/14/11 9:38 AM

'Fed, Rafa and now Nole, each of them does benefit from any dips in form, illnesses, injuries that happen to their rivals. As I said, it's nothing wrong seizing the opportunities opened to you and make the best out of it.'

Luckystar, 9/14/11 9:58 AM

These quotes actually summarized what I've been discussing about, after Rocky and numero's posts of 9/14/11 at 1:01 AM and 1:37 AM respectively. I hope this put to rest whatever 'suspicion', 'assumption' or whatever, that anyone may have, that I'm finding excuses for Rafa's losses, or being 'sore' or 'sour' about Rafa's losses. Good day everyone!

sick of Rafans trying to behave houlier than thou when they behave almost the same way when tables are turned now.

When Djoker lost against Fed in FO, so many came out and showed their true colours putting comments like 'somebody put glutten in Nole's food' etc etc...

And suprisingly, there's no gloating by Rafans about the fact that Rafa still leads h2h against Nole, isn't h2h the major gloating point for Rafans whenever they want to gloat against Fedfans.

ooohh, wait, suddenly they realized now h2h doesn't mean that much especially when your idol got beaten 6 times by a player of his own generation.

Suddenly also they realized how hard it is for a player to dominate his own generation. And also they also realized how hard it is for a player to win 3 Slams in a year.

Many thought Rafa will dominate in 2011 because Fed is old, djokovic and murray are far behind him at the end of last year.

Ohhh how things have changed.

lucky, cherry-picking is what u just did how about for example this post:-

Rafa's fitness this year is no longer at the same level as his 2008/09/10. It's no wonder he felt knackered at Miami under the heat, and at this USO final. We can't expect him to remain the same even if he's older now and especially when he's affected by illness and injuries.

First of all torres, what other Rafa fans posted earlier on, I'm not going to answer on their behalf. Second, just see for yourself, did you see Rafa's fitness level as the same as his 2010? Did you see how knackered he was in that Miami final? Compare that with his 2009/2010 AO, under the hot sun, did you see him wilt then? And what is so difficult to understand, that now at 25, and after his knee injury, his fitness level can't be compared to his 2008 and 2009 prior to the knee injury. He may be able to continue with his 2010 fitness level, as his exho match with Fed at Abu Dhabi this year had shown; unfortunately he was ill and then injured, resulting in him having to cope with recovery instead of training and improve, and you can't deny that his serves and his backhand were falling apart after he came back from his injury break. Again all these are facts, it's not something that I made up, what's so difficult to understand?

Of course, Nole has stepped it up this year, no question about that. Just imagine, if Nole was still playing like he did last year, do you think he could seize the opportunities this time? Chances are, Fed would be the one taking the advantage, even though Fed himself couldn't carry on with the momentum from his WTF last year. Fed on any day, is still good enough to beat most of the field.

So Fed meeting Rafa more times on clay than any other surfaces is not a fact but an excuse but Rafa's fitness's level is lower than years before is a fact but not an excuse?

deuce,

Wow! A lot of posts to read and catch up on, but I did see yours and wanted to respond.

Yes, I am aware of Tignor's book and am anxious to get it. I did see a documentary on HBO earlier this year about the Borg/McEnroe rivalry. I think we discussed it a few months ago. That is when I learned just how hard Borg had to train to be so athletically strong and also, about all those rituals he followed so rigorously when he was in competition.

You are correct that when Borg walked away, it really was the beginning of the end for McEnroe. He never won a slam after the age of 25. McEnroe left the game for a while to get married and have a family, but when he came back there was something missing. He said that he begged Borg to come back to the game for everyone, and especially for him. Their rivalry seemed to bring out the best in McEnroe and he was never the same without Borg.

I thought that after thirty years, I could watch that documentary and that last USO final that Borg played, and be okay. I guess old wounds never really heal, because I just broke down watching it again. I sobbed through the last twenty minutes of the documentary. At least now I understand more about why Borg walked away, but when I watch it the pain and sadness comes back all over again. There was no one like Borg, at least until Rafa! :)

luckystar,

Please don't feel the need to continue to defend yourself against numero. This is what he thrives on. You don't need to prove anything. He is just trying to embarrass you because it's what he does. He would like to think that Rafa fans are as upset and as obsessed about his records as he is about Fed's supposed legacy as the GOAT. Numero could care less about Nole. He is just glad that Nole stopped Rafa from getting his 11th and 12th slams this year, closing in on Fed. You have to remember how rabid Fed fans think. Everything is about Fed and protecting his greatness. Anyone who threatens it must be denigrated, trashed, vilified and somehow made to be inferior. It's how Fed fans roll, it's who they are.

Do not let yourself get sucked into this absurd back and forth with numero! We all respect your knowledge of tennis and appreciation for the game. Numero just needs to make people feel foolish by bringing up random comments and trying to make it seem as though others don't know what they are talking about, or are contradicting themselves.

As far as torres, well he's a Fed fan. Of course, he would jump in and fawn all over numero and go after you. It's what they do. Fed isn't winning anymore, so they have to occupy themselves with something. Now they will go after Rafa fans, thinking that we are like them and cannot handle him losing to Nole.

You hang in there and don't let them get you down! :)

What excuses are you talking about? The H2H is as it is, whether it's clay or hard or grass. Just think, Fed had his advantage over Rafa and Nole when he was in his peak while both Rafa and Nole were just upstarts. While Fed match up better against Nole, resulting in him chalking up that many wins over Nole on the hard courts, Fed couldn't do the same against Rafa. From 2004-2007, Fedal had met five times on the hard courts, however Fed couldn't dominate over Rafa like he did over Nole on the hard courts then, and instead of having a chance to go 5-0 or 4-1 up against Rafa, he managed 3-2. When Rafa had reached his prime, that three times they met on the hard courts, Rafa was2-1 over Fed. Had Fed been more dominant over Rafa on the hard courts over the years, he would have won more than half of those encounters. If he was 8-0, 7-1, 6-2 against Rafa, he would at least narrow his h2h
with Rafa, to say maybe 12-13, 11-14, or 10-15. It's not like Fed didn't have his chances against Rafa off the clay courts, they met eleven times off clay, seven of which were during Fed's peak period, from 2004-2007.

Now about Rafa's illness and injury at the beginning of this year being an excuse,(I hope this is the last time I have to talk about his illness and injury, I'm actually tired of talking about it now), whatever you want to call it that's your choice. The fact is both Fed and Rafa did not play as well as they did as in their 2010 but Nole played at a much higher level than what he did in his 2010, and that's the major difference in 2011.

Just think, Fed at the beginning of last year played very well to win the AO; can that Fed beat this Nole at AO this year? That Rafa of 2010, who had a clean sweep of the clay court Masters, losing only two sets throughout the whole clay season last year, not losing a single set during the FO, can this Nole match up to that Rafa of 2010 on clay? Can this Nole beat last year's Fed at Canada and Cincy, and Rafa at last year's 2010?

Most of us couldn't answer these questions for sure, and that's why I said most likely, they'll beat each other but Nole vs Fedal H2H this year won't be so lopsided but may be closer than what it is now.
now, to say maybe

'...and Rafa at 2010'
Sorry, I meant can this Nole beat Rafa at the USO2010?

Thanks NNY. Of course I won't be discouraged, for I know what I'm talking about. When in a discussion about a particular topic, I'll always base my thoughts on logic and reasoning, in addition to facts. I won't allow any favoritism to cloud my thinking, and won't allow any 'disturbances' or interferences to have me diverted away from the subject matter that I'm discussing.

Lucky..I cannot understand why you spend so much bandwidth trying to explain and defend to the likes of few people here whose sole aim in life is to stir up everything..Lets be clear..The sole intention of few people here is to ensure Feds legacy of 16 majors doesnt get broken nothing wrong in hopng that and wishing that as a fan)..so they will twist every statement to downsize the player who is threatening/capable of threatening that legacy. The only time they will stop is if the record gets broken . So I guess it is wise to simply not feed off their negative energy and spend no time in answering to their negatvity either

And yes most Fed fans back Nole not coz they like him, its just coz he has the arsenal to stop Rafa from threatening Feds legacy .

And yes as a Rafan I honestly dont think Rafa will threaten record of 16 slams either. I see him getting around 13 at max and my wish list is 1 more AO, USO,Wimby so that he gets 2 of each . 2012 I think will be Rafas make or break year and as a fan I hope its his make year and he gets atleast 2 GS next year.

Here we go again. pfftttt...

1st you said, Rafa's fitness level in 2010 is better so 2011 Rafa is lower but then you say it's only in the beginning of the year but whoopss, Nole only met Rafa in Miami and then you say it's because of the heat which is what he can't cope with.

Excuses, excuses, excuses....

Fed's legacy is preserved whether Fedfans debate endlessly or not. That is not what i'm here for. I'm yapping here because of rabid Rafans here who seemingly accept Rafa losses but at the same time, offer excuses like Rafa is not fit, the heat is too much, bla bla bla...

But for them, it's facts, it's reasons... But when Fedfans say it, it's excuses.

And what goes around, comes around. Last year people thought Rafa is probably the finest player we've ever seen, ooooppsss, sum1 came this year and he's definitely the finest now.

It's all about the moment. We see someone in our time beating other players and we think, owhh this level is the best. Well, it is, but it's because as time goes by, everything improves, training methods, tactics, strategies, technology...

So what is the best indicator? it's how a player dominated the field and not just one player... Djokovic is great this season because he dominated the field including Rafa at his peak. If it wasn't for Fed, Djokovic would have won the calendar Slam.

And please, we are not supporting Nole, we are just pleased that Rafans finally got the taste of their own medicine and even a logical poster like lucky are making contradicting remarks.. pfttt...

Torres, how am I contradicting myself. One problem leads to the other for Rafa. If you
can't see the facts then I can't help you. I see all you care for is taking revenge heh? And I thought you've change over a new leaf, after your long absence from TT, I see it's the same old torres. How am I biased when I acknowledged Nole's achievements? It seems that you're all bitter when we talk about Fedal's H2H.

And what had other Rafa fans comments got to do with me? Stop pouring all your bitterness at me. You seemed more bitter than some Rafa fans out here, as if Fed was the one who lost to Nole in the final! Unlike Fed fans, most Rafa fans are not obsessed about whatever 'goat' status, dominance over the field, or whatever. All we are interested is, we want to see Rafa healthy and competing well, winning as much as possible, and that's what he likes to do, to go out there competing and being rewarded for his efforts. His fans, like Rafa himself, are happy about what he has achieved so far, and he's already among the all times great, and that's good enough for him, there's no need to be the 'goat'.

Yes sanju, point noted and taken. I shall not spend anymore time 'entertaining' the bitterness felt by some Fed fans. Let them continue to worry about Fed'a slam record. We're more interested in Rafa and his tennis. Rafa is playing the first match for Spain in DC today. Why Tsonga and Monfils are not playing the DC matches this SF tie? I know Gasquet and Simon will be playing the first rubber today.

Oh yeah, for Nole fans, if there are any lurking around, there's an article by Pete Bodo at Tennis.com, about the Perfect Player, which is Nole. Interesting that as early as 2007, Pete Bodo had already noticed the potential of a young Nole. An interesting read.

luckystar,

I must admit I didn't get to watch all of Nadal's matches last year or this year. You're right that although I have watched a lot of tennis this year, most of my arguments are based on results rather than how the tennis is actually played. I'm of the school of thought that you get paid the same winning 6-0 6-0 as you do 0-6 7-6 7-6. Just winning ugly doing whatever it takes to get the job done is all that matters. It's what champions do. For example, how well did Djokovic play against Stepanek in Cincinnati? Not very well.
So I'll concede that with regards to their full potential every match, yes Federer and Nadal haven't fulfilled theirs often enough. But that said, many of the matches Djokovic has won this year have been far from his best as well. (How many missed opportunities did Lopez have against him in Belgrade?)
But I think looking at it in those terms would change the discussion altogether. It's instead like speculating on who would win on each surface? A 2006 on fire Federer, a 2010 on fire Nadal, or this 2011 on fire Djokovic, all healthy and hungry? Though I do say that's also a seductive proposition...

lucky, if Rafans are happy with what he has achieved so far, then guess what, we Fedfans are the happiest fans around. Unlike Rafans who obsesses about h2h's, we are just happy we got to see Fed play and prove that even at 30, he's still able to play at the very highest level. Do you see us stop appreciating the man eventho his not winning tournaments?

There's no revenge here. Karma has played its role. I am just pointing out that you should not contradict yourself and Rafans shouldn't do what they have preached against.

Apparently, you are a stubborn person. Once your logic is challenged you refuse to accept anything else. Whatever injury Rafa had in the beginning of the year may not or may have affected him but it is by no means a FACT.

And you do know that I never referred to u on my 1st post, but you feel offended and obligated to defend your Rafa altho u said, u have no favoritism.

Obviously, your logic is now well clouded.

torres9 you're a Fedfan? Just the other day you accused him of throwing the US Open semifinal match by double faulting on purpose!!! I've never seen a fan of someone say their guy tanked anything....ever.

torres, one last response to you. Rafa's injury is a fact, and his serve and backhand were falling apart is also a fact. I don't see what's the argument here. Now he did look gassed in the Miami final, a sign of lack of fitness, especially when we know in the past even under extremely hot weather, he didn't wilt.

Why do you call me stubborn when I'm just presenting some facts and logic? Unless you can present something to counter my points, like you can prove that he's not injured, his serves didn't fall apart in that IW final, etc and etc., we'll keep going around the bush and achieve nothing.

I'm just making myself clear that I'm not one of those who make any jab at Fed, unless I'm being provoked. It's good that you are at peace with what Fed has already achieved, just like most Rafa fans are now with what Rafa has already achieved. I really don't think Rafa or his fans are obssessed with catching Fed and his slam records, is only Fed fans who are the ones worrying about it. Now about the jabs some Rafa fans have against Fed, don't forget Rafa and his fans were/are consistently at the receiving ends of such jabs by the Fed fans too! Whatever they dish out to others, they should be able to take them too!

On a serious note, Fed had his dominance days; Rafa had his dominance on clay and grass, on clay for six/seven seasons and on grass for two seasons. We are seeing now a Nole dominance, something like Fed's, in this 2011 season. Rafa can never have a dominance like Fed or Nole, the reason being he can never dominate on the hard courts, and hard courts being the predominant surface throughout the whole season, with the exception of that three/four months European clay and grass season.

Rafa did have his chances of another 3 slam season and maybe even a dominant season like Fed's 2007; in 2009. He missed his chances due to poor scheduling that led to injury issues that derail his supposed good season where he started off winning the AO. The year 2009 he had his best start to a season and despite his injuries, he ended the season second on the hard courts, marginally edged out by Nole that year. He might do better on the hard courts that year had he not being injured.

Going forward, I see Nole continuing his dominance in 2012. Fed had his peak from 2004-2007; Rafa should have his peak from 2008-2010. It's a pity that Rafa had ended up injured in 2009 and wasted one year recovering from the effect of the injury, winning nothing for eleven months. Who knows 2011-2012 or maybe even to 2013, it's Nole's peak period and we'll see him dominating like Fed did in the past. Let's wait and see how things unfold.

The anti Rafafan brigade seem intent on flogging a dead horse by implying bitterness on our part and by constantly accusing us of finding excuses to explain his losses.

'That's so Yesterday' as Sosueme would say.

If they bothered to track the conversations more carefully they would see the majority of comments revolve around accepting that Rafa's game and strategy have been flawed this year and hypothesising why this might be.

This forum is for the exchange of ideas, reactions, thoughts etc. between tennis fans. Unfortunately there are some people who regard it as a battlefield.

Nadal had 2 great years in 2008 and 2010.
Federer had 4 great years 2004-2007.
Djokovic has 1, for now. We'll see what happens in 2012, 2013, ....

No one will ever dominate tennis with such consistency as federer did.
Nadal will not get to 16 slams (not even close) nor is he in the GOAT discussion (even before djokovic beat the crap out of him he wasn't in this discussion if we were being serious).
Djokovic might as well have the best season this year in terms of # titles and points (although he still needs a few titles), BUT to have a great year albeit difficult doesn't even come close to dominating tennis over a period of 4 years like federer did. That's tenfold as hard.

P.S.: Federer fans just be patient. We'll talk about H2H's in a year or two. Then we'll see just how good will nadal's H2H be against djokovic. Karma is a b****.

Reading all these posts makes me wonder how it isn't Nole fans swamping this thread :P

As far as I'm concerned, both Fed and Rafa fans give excuses when it is convenient, just don't know how to give full credit, say well played and get on with it. Looking at the stellar year Nole has had, we can easily offer excuses such as "Nole's serve and forehand was nowhere close to what it is now", or "He isn't as mentally strong or as fit as he used to be". The point is, those arguments don't have any gravity to them.

I say suck it up and be gracious without killing each other.

Yes why the Fed fans were the ones fighting the course for Nole? Strange isn't it samprallica? Nole's achievements speak for themselves, as he's the one playing at a high level consistently this year, and grubbed whatever opportunities opened up to him. Idon't think anyone question that. There's no need for the phrase 'suck it up' though.

I'm not going to argue with anyone about Nole's possible dominance over the coming years, I've given my opinion, it remains as an opinion, not a fact.

P.S.: Federer fans just be patient. We'll talk about H2H's in a year or two. Then we'll see just how good will nadal's H2H be against djokovic. Karma is a b****.
bleck , 9/16/11 10:25 AM

Hahahaa...poor Fed fans are waiting for Nole to help them...they are no longer talking about Rafa vs. Fed H2H, they have given up on that one...you see, it might as well happen that Fed ends up being fourth by the end of the year and that he and Rafa get to meet more often! It only means Rafa Fed H2H is going to be even worse for Fed...but Fed fans are blind to see that...instead, they are busy praying for Nole to take down Rafa more often and protect their declining idol...isn't that wrong approach? Be fair to your player, he has not retired yet...

And we shall see, indeed, what the Rafa H2H against Nole will eventually be...but somehow I think Fed fans won't be around at that time to witness it...

luckystar
, 9/16/11 7:34 AM
lucky, Monfils injured himself...it was that tough five-setter against Juan Carlos Ferrero at the US Open that aggravated his knee injury...and Tsonga will only play doubles...

Ok natashao, thanks for the info about Monfils. Tsonga playing doubles? So either Llodra or Benneteau is not there, I assume. The Spanish doubles team may have an advantage there, as I think Llodra and Benneteau works better as a team than either one of them with Tsonga.

even if they beat France, I hate to see Rafa playing finals in Belgrade...it would be so difficult to deal with...and I think Spain stands no chance against Serbia on an indoor surface...

First I've never talked to you about federer's H2H against nadal. But I can say what I think abou it if it makes you happy, I have no problem at all in seeing things as they are (some nadal fans don't have that ability). Federer's H2H against nadal is awful, it is pretty evident. When we look into it with some detail we can see that federer leads 2-1 on grass, they're even in hardcourts 4-4 and nadal leads on clay. So what we see is that roger owns nadal on grass, nadal owns federer on clay and on harcourts they're pretty even (although I think roger has an edge especially in indoors hardcourts). Why is the H2H so unbalanced towards nadal? Because they only have on chance to meet each other on grass and that's wimbledon whereas there are 3 or 4 clay tournaments where they can meet each other. Of course federer being the second best clay courter in 2005,2006,2007 they met a lot of times and nadal has the edge on clay.

So as you can see there's nothing about the H2H to be afraid about because nadal only has an advantage on clay which is expected since he is one of the greatest claycourters of all time.

So what does the H2H have to do with the GOAT discussion? Nothing at all obviously.
Should nadal's and federer's resume be identical then it could serve as a tiebreaker, but that's it.

As for nadal's H2H against djokovic since djokovic has beaten nadal on clay, hard and grass, 6 consecutive times I expect the H2H to tilt to djokovic's favour next year.
And then when delusional fans bring that worthless argument to the GOAT discussion I'll just bring another worthless argument of the nadal's H2H against djokovic. Nadal fans are running out of arguments.

P.S.: Do you really expect nadal to be challenging the then world number 1 at 30 years of age. He'll retire at 28/29 at best. Somehow I feel roger will still be around by then.

natashao, you think too far ahead. The more you think, the more you worry. If they ever meet in the DC final, whatever outcome that may be, Rafa would be more aware of what's gone wrong with his match up against Nole. Do you think that Rafa can't even beat Nole once from now onwards? I won't be surprised that should they meet during some of the tournaments before the DC, Rafa would beat Nole at least once. Just stay positive, if not this year, then next year. In any case, there's nothing shameful losing to the no.1 player in the world.

@luckystar, there are lot of similar articles about every young player which stand out from the crowd. I tend to agree with his judgment, he is a Perfect Player, not the greatest ever, but only one difference is that he really is best player now.

While there are players with the best serve, best forehand, best net play, overall he looks pretty well balanced having almost all that on high level, without known weak spots. I think that he needs to work on disrupting tactics department, practicing more to disrupt opponent game, rather than to blast them off the court...

yes atg, I agree Nole is a well balanced player, strong in every aspect of the game. Got to say WOW to Pete Bodo, for spotting this Perfect Player while this player was still learning his trade then.

What I loved about Bodo's article was his bit about trunk rotation and the part it plays in Nole's strokes. Nobody else on tour has swivelled as much as Nole has on his backhands and forehands, and it is the most efficient manner of imparting awesome power on your strokes if you have a strong core structure, which Nole obviously does. This is in contrast to some awesome power players over the years such as Safin and Del Potro who almost entirely rely on their arms to generate power and have the paid the price for it with injury.

To me, Nole isn't yet the perfect player because he lacks three elements in his game: he needs a better first serve, a better slice, and could incorporate better net play into his game. Its a little ridiculous for him to be expected to do so, because I'm sure he bases his practise sessions a lot on his strengths these days and a slice/net game plan doesn't fit into his patterns.

But the perfect player would win on all surfaces. To me, the real test is at the WTF in London against Federer :)

Whoa.....................Fedfans in full voice! Enjoy...................

I agree, it is rare isn't it rafaisthebest usually tennistalk is filled with posts from nadal fans (which are the majority in tennistalk) that belong to an imaginary realm or a parallel world.

It is good to sometimes enjoy down to earth posts from serious people.

hahaa...this bleck is deperately trying to be funny...and all he can accomplish is to make people feel sorry for him...

And here I thinking nadal fans had their emotions monopolised by the beatdowns djokovic has been (and will continue to) inflicting to nadal.

natashao, I guess you're one of those nadal obssesed fans who can't manage to separate reality from illusion. As much as I want to bring you out of your own little fantasy world I found that it is a nearly impossible task. So I'm not going to waste my time trying to bring you to the real world.

P.S.: I guess the beatdowns have been leaving some deep psycological scars in nadal fans, I guess you lot thought ndal had a chance to reach federer's slam total. Rest assured he didn't have a chance even before djokovic started beating him to a pulp.
I wish for your full recovery.

Sorry, blecky, I could not respond earlier to your post as I was watching Rafa dominating the field in his DC match with Gasque...Personally, I don't give a damn about Fed's slam record...Rafa has 10 GSs already, remember? ...if Rafa keeps winning in next five years one or two GSs per year, or even two every second year, he will break Fed's record...if Nole keeps dominating the field so let be it...It's you, Fed fans who are so frustrated about it and who keep bringing it up...it is so sad that you have reached the stage where you are more focused on other players beating Nadal than on your own player matches...you kind of sent him to retirement already...you are watching and analyzing Nadal's matches, you overload Rafa's threads with your spiteful comments since you have nothing to say on Fed's thread...that is really pathetic...You guys live in constant fear of Rafa breaking Fed's records...what a nightmare!

Unlike you, I tend to see positive side in everything...Nole is better player at the moment and he is therefore well deserved No1...but I think it is good to have Nole challenge Rafa, emerging like this and beating Rafa, because it will bring out the best in Rafa...Rafa is more motivated now to improve his game and he seems to have a clear goal: to beat Nole...whether it will happen this year or next year I don't know...but I believe it will happen and that will be great moment for Rafa and his fans...I hope you will be around to congratulate Rafa in the same way you were congratulating Nole...not that I care though, just think it would be nice for you to show some respect...

Rafa played great match today even though we all knew he would be tired...what a fighter and patriot he is...I notice how he has improved and made significant progress since the last match on clay this year (oh, yeah, it was that FO final where he outplayed Fed once again!) and that is such a good sign...I am so proud of him!

VAMOS RAFA!!!

I "overload Rafa's threads with your spiteful comments"??!!
I barely started posting and I post a couple times a week. What thread have I overloaded with my posts?!

Do you even read my posts? It isn't the fed fans that bring the H2H issue because (as I wrote in a post above) it favours nadal. It is you nadal fans that bring it to the GOAT discussion which is stupid since it has nothing to do with it.

Of course I don't want nadal to win GS as I wouldn't want djokovic to win had he more GS than nadal and closer to federer's total. I believe that if nadal was in federer's shoes and vice-versa you would also want djokovic to beat federer so he didn't get closer to nadal's GS total, or ma I wrong? Don't tell me you didn't get happy when del potro beat federer in the US Open 2009 final.

"You guys live in constant fear of Rafa breaking Fed's records..."
Again do you even read my posts?! Nadal won't reach federer's weeks at nº1, WTF titles, year end nº1, GS titles,....

Nadal is the best clay courter, federer is the GOAT.

As for nadal turning the tables against djokovic I don't realy see it happening. Nadal is a one dimensional player. All he can do is run even more although at the US Open it didn't have a great effect. I'm not saying nadal won't beat djokovic ever again, all I'm saying is that in 10 matches djokovic will win 7 or 8.

I'm glad you're proud of nadal I'm also. Let's keep getting proud of him and let's hope he keeps his good form against djokovic.
The change of subject in the posts wasn't my doing. I merely wrote a post regarding another post in this thread.

I'm proud of federer for fighting and giving it his all in the semis. He almost did it, he was one point away. Federer is currently the only one who can beat djokovic and that says something of his level past his prime.

Federer still has chances of adding to his GS total and I hope he does. I don't want him to retire as you say (and I'm sure you don't too since this year's FO was a gift to nadal from federer).

Bottom line is federer is a joy to watch. There's no one out there that plays such a beautiful fluid effortless attacking tennis. It will be a shame when federer hangs up his racket. Then we'll be left to the tennis of the future which is an all out grindfest from the baseline, to see who commits the error first.
Oh well...

I wouldn't say the H2H record doesn't factor in the GOAT argument, which is already way too subjective given how conditions and equipment and opponents change in tennis. And a brutal slugfest from the baseline doesn't have to be about who commits the error first - Nole had a positive winners to erros differential in the final and several of those rallies were settled with winners.

But yes, it will be a shame if Federer retires. He's the last player left of all-courters who's primary mode of play revolves around hitting winners - which wasn't always the case, he used to be more defensive early on.

samprallica, I agree when you say that "which is already way too subjective given how conditions and equipment and opponents change in tennis". It is tough to compare differente eras because of tecnology and the way players themselves develop especially physically. In the Laver era players could play well into their 30's because the game was way less physical, for example.

"Nole had a positive winners to erros differential in the final...". Yes just barely. But this type of tennis isn't just about the players style it is also because the surfaces of the courts have been slowed down thus making it more difficult to hit through the court.
But I disagree when you say "I wouldn't say the H2H record doesn't factor in the GOAT argument...". The H2H against a certain player being negative doesn't affect the GOAT discussion. In fact I find it ridiculous when nadal is brought up in the GOAT discussion because of the H2H against federer having won "only" 10 slams. By stating that H2H is a factor then should federer be a worst clay court player and recah less finals on clay the H2H against nadal would be better-would that favour federer in the GOAT discussion?

As I said in a post above the reason the H2H is so unbalanced towards nadal is because they've played the majority of their matches on clay. Had they played more matches on other surfaces the H2H wouldn't be so unbalanced althought it would probably still be in nadal's favour - it is a matter of matchup.

Well, blecky, don't flatter yourself...when I say you 'overload rafa's threads' I meant all Fed's fans, not only you...unless you consider yourself the only Fed fan here which is not true...

If you were here long enough you would know that I respect and simply love Fed's tennis...he is beautiful to watch and I give him credit for everything he has accomplished to date...he is true Maestro of the game and I have never ever said he was not...unlike you, I don't enjoy his defeats (unless he plays Rafa of course) as you enjoy Rafa's...I tend to think it was Fed who motivated Rafa to become what he is today...though I did enjoy Delpo beating Fed and wining USO 2009 but only because he was so convincing in beating Rafa that I thought the guy who plays like that deserved to win the Slam...

Before USO even started I stated Fed was the only one who could beat this Nole...I even predicted Fed would beat Nole in five sets and I was almost right, but who would expect Fed would choke like he did when serving for the match...

And one thing I completely disagree with is your assessment of Rafa being one dimensional player...that's rather ridiculous; it only proves how little you know of Rafa. I guess it is a good thing after all that you started watching Rafa's matches carefully...you get to learn what he really is made of...that "one-dimensional" player beat the hell out of Maestro on numerous occasions...he must have more than one dimension to be able to do that, don't you think?

I adore Rafa and his game...I love the way he keeps improving and surprising everybody...and whenever you start bashing him I will respond in the same way...So it is not Fed I have problem with, I even like the guy...it is you and the other Fed fans who enjoy putting Rafa down and celebrating his defeats...understand?

That's really bold of you talking of all the federer fans when responding to something I said. I speak only for myself not everyone else.

Nadal is a one-dimensional player wether you like it or not. Adding muscle mass and serving faster, running even faster, hitting with more power that's all great but there has to be a limit and that's one dimensional. Nadal has to have a limit, I don't know how he's able to play his taxing type of game and continue to do it (djokovic may have discovered the methods nadal uses since he is know on par with nadal physically and in terms of stamina - maybe it is the egg maybe something more, who knows?!) Nadal can't slice a ball properly, his volleys are average. He is a great baseliner. His court coverage and stamina allow him to wear his opponents down and force the error. That's how nadal plays. The problem for him is that now there's a player who is as fit as nadal and can hang with him stamina-wise. And that's djokovic. Also the top spin forehand that gives so much trouble to roger is a rather ineffective against djokovic's two handed backhand. It's a matchup issue.

"that "one-dimensional" player beat the hell out of Maestro on numerous occasions...he must have more than one dimension to be able to do that, don't you think?" Not really. Djokovic is far more developed tecnically than nadal and he has trouble against federer whereas nadal doesn't because he has that top spin forehand which works like charm on federer's one handed backhand. It's a matchup issue. That question you posed shows how little you know of tennis.

I'm glad you enjoy federer's game, keep enjoying it while you can because we have 2/3 more years of it. I know I will.

" It will be a shame when federer hangs up his racket. Then we'll be left to the tennis of the future which is an all out grindfest from the baseline, to see who commits the error first"

'Grinding' apparently, is what brings em in however,
Titles that is.
I have this US Open Final in my PVR, but have not been tempted to see it again despite really enjoying it the first time.
One of the main reasons Fedal matches were so electrifying was the contrast of styles, in stark contrast to when Novak & Rafa are playing together.
But the there's is a price to pay, it's very difficult to sustain this kind of play throughout the tour, esp out of the clay courts, as it is so unforgiving to the body. Nadal clearly has not been playing as well as he did last year, there has been a crucial say 5% drop which has been pivotal in allowing Novak to dominate him rather than just beat him more often.
Heres the rub, it's going to happen to Novak as well. Probably sooner too as he doesn't seem to possess the same powers of recuperation that the Spaniard has had previously.
As a result, I just don't see Novak dominating till 2013 etc, because his body most likely will not be up to the task of consistently playing the way he does now.
No one's is.

Btw & not singling anyone out, but I think its rather lame to resent a player for beating your favourite.
As a Murray fan, I seen him get beaten often by Roger, Nadal, Novak but have never held it against them. What are they supposed to do...play badly so he can win!?
There just doing their jobs and it's up to Andy to do his better which he often fails at so when I'm irked, it's always @ Andy rather than his opponents.
And it's frankly ridiculous to see it otherwise.

Yes sosueme I agree with you. "Grinding" is the future of tennis. Nadal was dominating before djokovic came with his renewed stamina and physical prowess.
Tennis has been becoming more and more physical, it's just the way the game is evolving. Of course the slowing down of the courts helps this type of game achieve the best results.
For example, some years ago tall players' movement was always their downfall, but now look at cilic, del potro, ...

We will see players retiring earlier and earlier because "grinding" takes it's toll on the body. Federer was able to dominate 2004-2007 because his play style is much more forgiving. Look at federer playing a prime djokovic in the FO and USO while being 30 years old. I seriously doubt nadal or djokovic will be looking this good when they hit 30.

sosueme, responding to your second post. I don't resent nadal. As I said in a post above I like federer's game, I'm a federer fan. I just don't want his records to be in danger. Is that something so hard to understand. If it was djokovic with more GS and pursuing federer then I'd want nadal to beat him for the sole purpose of federer mantaining the most GS titles.

That Federer was able to dominate then was more due to the quality of his opponents at that time rather than His style of play although his style was clearly a factor also.
The fact that he is still a part of the equation in 2011 is however down to his style more than anything else I believe. That and the fact he is one of the greatest players ever.
But if all we are going to see is a battle of the grinders from now on in I think I might check out for a while.
Murray often plays a grinding style or did. I hope that he doesn't go further along this line in hope of beating Novak and Nadal because I doubt he'll be able to.
He needs to take his cue from Roger instead and use his skills inside of the court to have a chance.

bleck, you are afraid, very afraid...I don't blame you, though...it is hard to accept that Rafa is 25 and Nole and Murray are 24, Delpo is what 23? while Fed is 30...

I have nothing more to say to you, but just wait and see...you will be proved wrong...I believe Rafa will be back...Rafa's drop in form this year and Nole being where he is with his own form and fitness are the main reasons why Rafa was beaten by this amazing Nole...you say Fed still plays great at the age of 30...I agree, but he is also losing key matches, bleck, he is...what does it tell you...it says that your guy is slowly leaving the stage...I really hope he will stay around, because I like his tennis and I want him to stay...today Fed gets beaten by Nole, Rafa, Tsonga...and very soon Andy will get the better of him (he was lucky not to meet Andy for some time now)...yes, do be afraid...you have all reasons to be afraid...

@bleck,

I wasn't necessarily meaning you, it was a general comment.

Rafa should never rely on someone else to do the job for him...if Rafa wants to overpower Nole he will simply have to be better than Nole irrespective of how Nole plays with Fed or Andy or anybody else...All Rafa fans were clearly happy when Fed took out Nole at FO...but in fact it was an unfortunate circumstance...Rafa did not get to play his best tennis at the FO finals (which I am sure he would have had to if Nole was on the other side of the net) and did not have the clear picture of where his game was...it would have been better for him if he was to learn sooner than later that the imperative is for him to improve his own form rather than wait for Nole's to drop...this USO was clear indication of that...

Luckystar, you get so angry these days, anything anyone says about rafa, you are away with the red mist clouds. You need to calm down. He's declining. Over.

Sosueme, 9/16/11 3:15 AM, you are a fool. You did say it and you deny it when someone finds you out.

Go away with Luckystar and be happyier somewhere.

@Venus Flytrap...
Grow up everyone you are all idiots!
Don't act like cookie monsters dancing the tango on the moon!
Roger is the president of all he surveys.
He is the prince of paper towels & the emperor of pushbikes!
& if you don't like it, well you
You can go JOIN THE HOFF!
Which is German for get f!?ked!
And that's exactly what David Hasslehoff does when he is in Germany & near any drinking establishment.
But no, not our Roger, he is the best Champers!
He is the King of Cavier & the inventor of the cuckoo clock no less!
And if I don't make any sense & seem completely insane, it's because you are too stupid and need to Learn English as well as I have.
Got it Champers?
Blah blah blah, etc, yawn....

Venus Flytrap, haha.

I disagree with the view that Djokovic is all defense. In the third and fourth sets of their semi, he was pummelling Federer by going for the lines, and can flatten out the ball when he needs to. Why Nadal erred in the past is by not playing a more go for broke style in the earlier round of his matches; but then again, you could argue that he needs to stick with his methods so that he can pull them off in the big matches. Nole by contrast seems to be able to play conservatively in a physical sense in the opening rounds, so i don't think it is a huge issue.

Also, their body types are a lot different. Federer is an awesome player, but tennis will still be good to watch even once he's done with. Maybe they could tweak the surface speeds to make more players a factor, but as far as quality of play is concerned - I don't see where Federer is the end all and be all.

Sosueme, you are completely mad. I don?t understand what you saying.
You definitely need some kind of holiday for certain, with Luckystar and zare (that should be a barrel of fun!).

You poor, wretched person. Too stressed with rafa going out in the final? ummmmm.

I understand. So how can you say what you sa?d earl?er?

To learn Engl?sh as well as I have?

It's the sun, sosueme. Get?s to us all in the end.

Sosueme hello, hello :) Do hope Mr Bear doesn't think he can outplay Novak, or Rafa for that matter but he does usually try playing differently against Rafa, on the baseline or out hit him, cos he can't. What he can do to defeat Nole is play more like Fed. Especially mix up his game and volley much more. He is a natural, instinctive volleyer and darn it, I really wish he'd start using that weapon more often!
Can't wait for 2012....

@sampra

I don't think Roger is the be all and end all either, never thought that about Rafa too.
So I'm more with you on this one.
But Novak definitely plays a much more grinding game now than before, you can't deny that, & I predict going on there will be a dip as a result.
But sure, there's more to Novak than just this style of play, and he won in the end in the final by being the more aggressive of the two and daring to come to the net. 
I personally would prefer to see a more all court game rather than a 'Baseline 
Bonanza' but I sure like long rallies too or I wouldnt be a Murray fan, would I?
Yes deuce he has to take his transitional game to the next level as he is a superb volleyer & one of the best at the net.

I agree with lucky that samprallica's choice of words, i.e., to "suck it up", was unfortunate. It's the Fed fans who instigate this trash talk. I realize that they must be depressed these days, especially after Fed gave away the match against Nole. Instead of dealing with it, they come on here to attack Rafa and his fans. That is their way of dealing with disappointment and bitterness. Too bad on them! Why should Rafa fans just take it and not stand up to this wretched bullying. Fed fans will never get over the fact that their guy has a losing h2h against Rafa.

For what it's worth, I am not sure that Nole will dominate in 2012. I think it could prove to be a very competitive year with Fed, Rafa and Murray having their chances. Also we have Delpo still trying to regain his best form, Sod and Berdych who will try to come back strong, Tsonga, Cilic and the young guys.

Finally, there is no GOAT! If Fed fans would just face this reality and accept him as one of the greatest in his era, then their mental health would be a lot better.

mentally retarded words.

Federer is the GOAT and better accept it than to accept your mental health.

Idiot.

Mentally retarded words,

Fleur is an Moron and better accept it than to accept your mental health.

Idiot

Fleur,

You really have a way with words! I have never seen you make a nice comment on any of the blogs especially when it concerns Rafa or his fans. You are obviously not as nice as your name suggests. If I were Federer I would not be proud to have you as a fan.

Bleck,

Have read quite a few of your posts and in my opinion it is you who are delusional and somewhat arrogant - you sound as though you think you are the definitive expert on Rafa's game describing it as one dimensional. His overall results would indicate otherwise.

That's a tough one schatz. You say I have nothing nice to say? People not accept Federer is the GOAT because they cannot see Rafa is in decline? More excuses.

In the next line you call someone delusional? How does that work please? You the 'definitive expert, huh? 'somewhat arrogant', like your crazy friend Sosueme, who is character at best.

You?re the idiot Sosueme and very rude too. Happy that it makes you feel that way?

Oh it SO makes me happy Venus Flytrap!
Being an Idiot that is.. I'm a happy Idiot because at last I've found someone here I can look down on intellectually,
You that is!
From a GREAT HEIGHT....

Sosueme: Venus Flytrap. ROTFL

Fleur,

If you keep dishing it out you have to expect that some people will find your posts offensive and in turn feel the need to defend someone that you are having a go at. I did not like the way you told NNY that their words were mentally retarded and that they were an idiot. I have seen many posts from you and you have been very nasty to people and I have not said anything but this time I felt I had to defend the person you were having a go at. I do not usually get involved in slanging matches but you went too far this time. I fully expected you to have a go at me and quite honestly it does not bother me one bit.

Also, just as you like to defend Federer, I will also defend Rafa if I think someone is being disrespectful or unfair and it seems to me that you are one of the main culprits as far as this is concerned. I would never say bad things about Federer because even though he is not my favourite I do respect what he has achieved. Rafa likes him so there must be something good in him and that is good enough for me. It would be nice if some Federer fans would show the same respect for Rafa.

schatz: It's really brave of you to defend the person/people on the receiving end of these spiteful attacks. You'd better duck now because she will be baying for your blood and will stop at nothing to retaliate.

schatz, welcome. Usually this site is a very good place to be, so I hope you stick around :)......Raf's not my favourite btw, but I respect/like him as a player tremendously, as I do Nole and Fed and darling Andy ;) and many, many more.

surprises no one that deuce and ed are sisters here and vile too. schatz...'I never say bad things...'.. oh really?

schatz, look at comments carefully before commenting yourself, else you look ridiculous, from a great height too, like sueme. All the same party, joining the tricks of the show.

Ed, your the vile one here. You and deuce speak nonsense most of time. You respect only those who agree with you or suck up to your tantrums. scoretracker got it right in one.

You don't exist, get it? You not fooling Sienna or me deuce that you respect all tennis players and comments because you make some vile ones too.

Are you innocent here? Time to join the hoff deuce.

Red button calling.

Stinky... you are back again....
Look at comments here b4 you and hyena came... just sportsmanship and respect...
And then... moron and idiot are back....
You have waited for ExFed to win something... to show again...
3:1 ....not bad for Arrogant, against 200 rank player. That is his lvl now.

arrogant? Your English is realy bad zare. Realy bad.

zare. You are arrogant, novak is arrogant dancer, when playing nadal, asking the crowd for support? Putting his arms up waiting to carry the baby. Putting him off his shot! taking MTO to put rafa off his game (playing him at his own game). Who is arrogant zare? YOU ARE! You are so arrogant it defies the red button.

I'm pressing it zare. You need to go and dance the arrogant rumba like arrogant novak.

"arrogant? Your English is realy bad zare. Realy bad"

Venus Flytraps in Glasshouses shouldn't throw stones.........

Sosueme, what's your problem? are you zare's bodygard? Do you enjoy your job? Are you so perfect? Look at your comments. You could kill a weak person very easily. Your very good at it. You are irritating poster number 3). zare, luckystar and sosueme. Your like glue.

sticky character.

Oh, I'm just preparing you for the final 'coup de grace' Venus.
Your remarks tell me you have entered 'Phase 2' of our little dance.
It always turns out the same I'm afraid.
Soon it shall be time for the final demolition of your Psyche.
However, if you stop provoking me needlessly, I will return to thinking you're nothing more than TT's village idiot, & shall ignore you accordingly.
Your Call.....

Cracked... gone with the fart... looney.... you are gone, girl...
I am feeling sorry for ppl who have to live with you... delusional and arogant just like your fake idol....Mr."I should have won"....
And every day Novak is breaking new records... LOL... just keep watching and suffering...

Sosueme... sticky character ?
...much better than "stinky character" LOL...

Plain Flour what are you doing back here? Federer doesn't know you exist so stop acting like his lawyer, are you his bodyguard too? Go join Paris Hilton or Britney although their intelligence levels are way above yours! Maybe you can ask Hoff to help you with your English and a few things about tennis. So when will you next log on as Hyenna? Can't wait for more jokes to reveal more of your neanderthal genes.

@Felur, Novak is bad dancer, not arrogant. But he was touched by festival atmosphere of USO, and made a move. You should be rally Novak hater if you don't understand:
http://youtu.be/y800ujM7xTg

Putting his arms for crowd support? Novak was aggravated with the crowd, who was blindly supporting Federer, missing tennis in front of their nose. I guess you never watched Gladiator, but this how I see his intent at the moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsqJFIJ5lLs

Djokovic had medical intervention during brake between 3rd and 4th sets. It didn't disrupt anything and didn't count as MTO. On the first changeover he asked for MTO, which is by rules. On slams umpire and GS supervisor approves MTO, not just one person so it was legal and approved. And this MTO could only benefit Rafa serve, as the previous game was exhausting. Novak and Rafa are known as slower players regarding routines on their serves. Just analyze how long it takes Rafa to serve for the first point and you will see that is more good than harm. Same is with Djokovic, as he always need some time to calm, come to breath in order to have full concentration for serving.

zare is great guy, temperament like Novak, but really so far from arrogant.

zare great guy? In your stars atg! 4) irritating poster. Full of wayward nerves, stressed out. Jean, your back! Your hair is growing after picking up the bits from rafa's clippings! Now you need to dye it as surely you must be going grey!

atg, Novak irritated rafa. You could see it in his face. He was no happy with Novak Novak raised his arms to ask for help from crowd who don?t like him for his arrogant ways.

Zare was up in the crowds doing his silly dance when he was off duty. Zare should retire now. atg, zare, very, very, very, very arrogant. You can see he has the voice for it. Tone deaf to everyone else except his own.

He fall off the stands when he dances the rumba, now jean is back, he has a partner! Both losing their hair!

Obese jean is back on track. I love reading youre comments. They give so much insight in youre crazy, lazy, lonely life. No eating after midnight please.

What a pair of idiots....my God....

???my God??? lookwhats talking. I think youre posts and comments are far more idiotic then mine or Fleur's for that matter. jean does have weight problems she told us about it some time ago. I am normally not someone who makes fun of that, but jean has problems and she needs to solve them before something terrible happens.
I am actually helping her to become a fitter person. hopefully.

lucky, this article should help. From the statistical point of view, there's not much difference in Rafa's 2010 and 2011 level.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/853566-rafael-nadals-level-has- dropped-significantly-in-2011-myth-or-reality

It's true that in the beginning of the year Rafa had virus infection, heat problems. But really it does not affect him afterwards because look at his GS performances: FO Wimby final and USO final.

This is not a guy that is affected by anything but of course if you say momentum then perhaps Rafa was affected by Djokovic's wins on him while he was in a lot of problem in IW and Miami.

But isn't Rafa mentally strong enuff to forget all those losses?

I don't see any 'psychological problem against Djoker in the final. Novak wasn't exactly outlasting Rafa in the 4th, what Djoker did was taking more risks in his shots whereas in the 3rd he was engaging in too much rallies.

Problem is Rafa's game now puts Novak clearly in his comfort zone the same way Fed's game is to Rafa.

From all the beatings Rafa received from Novak it concludes what I thought of all Fed's losses to Rafa. it's a case of bad matchup.

But it's not really problem because when you think about it in the bigger picture, Fed doesn't really mind losing to Rafa that much because 1)he still dominated the rest of the field 2) Even when Rafa's around and beating Fed, Fed was still winning so many GS's

So why do u need a positive h2h against all rivals when it's not even a necessity to win the Grand Slam tournaments u already collected?

However, for Rafa now, he has a guy that's just about his age who is owning him on every surfaces. 2012.

I don't see why the GOAT is much of an issue. You Rafans say u guys don't care about but yet when sum1 claims Fed is the GOAT, u go all sensitive. When you guys go on and on with the Vamoses Rafa is the best isn't it saying that Rafa is the bestest ever to you guys. So what's really the difference?

Clearly Rafans really should get out of this 'we are the most humble fans' of all time delusion.

Rafa is a gr8 player but clearly now the best of his generation is DJoker. But this is only 1 freaking season no matter how good it will turn out to be. Fed dominated tennis for 5 freaking years and it means that the level he sets out was too much high it took players from other generations to figure him out.

@torres9

Give it a f!?king rest, you grovelling sycophant!

torres9,

fed is the GOAT. I don?t know y people argue it. Everyone knows it.

Rafa is in decline.

Sosueme, your words are harsh and very d?srespect?ng.

You mad? and very rude.

You should learn to sing, gets rid of stress when you release the vocals.

The hoff needs a partner.

He?s moved on to spain and waiting for you sueme. Get there in a hurry.

Book a fl?ght.

schatz,

Thanks so much for the kind words, but please don't make yourself a target. As you can see, Sosueme had an excellent response. He is well equipped to deal with these pathetic losers and low lifes. He has a witty way with words and can give quick retorts that will put them to shame.

These rabid Fed fans have no lives and nothing better to do with their time. I would pity them, but reading their filthy comments makes me realize that they are not even deserving of that. They are also cowards through and through. They hide behind an anonymous screen name online and spew out insults that they would never dare say to any of us face-to-face.

I have no idea how jean's weight got into this discussion, but when you are dealing with lunatics I guess they can make up just about anything. Thank goodness we have never had the misfortune to meet these people in person. So how would any of them know that jean has a weight problem or a hair problem, for that matter?

Where is the pesticide, super strength! We need to spray this site and get rid of the poison!

obviously the only Rafan worth talking to is lucky and some other occasional sensible poster. This NNY is like a broken record always saying how bad Fedfans are when Rafans are doing the very exact thing. It really takes 2 to tango.

This Sosueme is irrelevant at the very least. Best ignored.

Contrary to popular belief, I am very entertained whenever I watch Rafa plays win or lose. I love his game, love his fighting spirit. I was sad that he didn't beat Djoker because it could have been the greatest comeback in tennis history.

Fed is GOAT= Rafa is the Best We are alike

torres,

I don't care what your opinion is of me. You can say what you like and it won't change who I am. You don't know me, except as a Rafa fan who must be disliked at all costs.

Your opinions are only that - opinion and have no more worth or relevance than anyone else here. You are just picking up where your buddies fleur and sienna left off.

You are the ones who stink up this site with your disgusting attacks on Rafa and his fans and it happens every time Rafa loses. Your real problem is that Fed isn't winning anymore, is in decline and losing matches he shouldn't. Reasonable fans of a player will understand that all great champions eventually decline and stop dominating. You can't handle it and so you come after Rafa fans and try to dump your anger and frustration on us.

We don't have to take it, nor will we!

Great Tennis.Djokovic has gained mastery over Nadal this year and is 6-0 Head to Head.He has ended the long wait for a new Gran Slam Champion other than Federer or Nadal. Federer is still increadible to watch.

I'm irrelevant?
Oh, Okay!
Which, ofcourse,  perversely means that you are somehow 'relevant',.....rather than some disposable, brain dead, sycophantic flunky?
Ho-ho-ho!
But really, we all know this is exactly what you are!
'contrary to popular belief' you say!
Bravo!
 But no one here gives a rats ass about you!
Judging from the posts anyway & that's all there is...
Except me of course..I care & aren't you lucky!
Im sorry, but if you want to ignore me, well that's just fine by me, but if you're not in ANY way an ass licking imbecile.........
Then I'm Santa Claus!
I hope ive clarified things for you because I'm just here to help really.
It makes me SO happy to help the more unfortunate among us.
Like yourself.
Oh & you're welcome in advance!

NNY: have ordered book on Mac and Borg and it's in the post! Don't often read non-fiction but this looks so interesting :)
Sosueme: did u c Andy in Davis Cup? First two sets, all was well, then he was serving for the match...and lost his serve.....aaahhhh

@Torres
If you have anything witty to say fine,
But it's morning here & I've been out & about for a long time,
So I'll deal with you tomorrow...
So until then!

@deuce

Yes I saw it and he was what we expect at the end, was he not?
Speak to you later sweetheart...

Sosueme, such a deadpan face.

Oh my God. Chr?st. The words here give me a stroke.

NNY, you have a way with evil face here? You sitting down with your headach now? What is the matter with your head? You making a spell on the rich? What you put in the pot? with w?tch like comments to level headed people. go away. come back another day, like never! when the door is closed.

Poghead. Be sensible and kind to sienna and torres9. Your big head needs more hair from rafa?s clipping before you talk properly. Are you and sumy husband and wife now? He already has a partner. Jean.

She will be jealous.

Take care now dear.

torres, since you address your post to me, I hereby make my response. I did mention that for Rafa one problem led to the other.

I did mention in some of my posts last year, that after Rafa's AO 2010 injury during his QFmatch vs Murray, he needed time to recover, and hence his fitness and stamina were
affected. You can't expect him to recover from his injury, come back straight to compete in
the tours, and still having the same fitness level. For an injury like that, someone who worked as a physio did mention that it took about three months for Rafa's fitness and stamina to be back to his normal level. That explained why during Miami last year, he looked so shack playing against Nalby during the day. Also while playing against Tsonga in a night match at the same tournament, he was running out of breath, that Tsonga complained to the umpire that Rafa took too long to serve. I remember that incident very clearly because Tsonga looked so comical out there while complaining, showing the umpire how he bend his body, waited for Rafa's serve for so long and yet the ball didn't come!

The same happen this year to Rafa, and that's why I said his fitness was affected, as during IW/Miami his fitness wasn't back to his normal level yet. Maybe that's why during MC, he was 'struggling' during some matches. It was during Barcelona that I feel his fitness is back to his normal level. Now he lost to Nole at Madrid and Rome not because of his fitness, but rather 1) Nole has raised his level this year; 2) he was suffering from confidence issue against Nole. He's obviously nervous during the Madrid final, playing defensively from the start and was 0-4 down before he fought back to save his own face.

Rafa has always had difficulties against Nole on the hard courts; their H2H before this year was 7-5 in Nole's favor. So with Nole's improved level this year, it's not difficult to understand that he's widen the gap to 10-5. Now about Rafa's clay court game, in my opinion, he's much more aggressive last year and hence his results then, this year he's not playing as aggressively, save only at Barcelona. He almost lost to Lorenzi at Rome and given a scare by Isner at RG! Nole again has raised his game on clay (and grass) too this year, so Rafa lost to him.

To me, Rafa suffered his six losses to Nole because of a combination of some factors, the main ones being Nole has raised his level this year on all surfaces and Rafa's level has gone down a bit, like what Sosueme mentioned, maybe by about 5%. It's not like Rafa is having a very smooth season this year. At the beginning of last year, he didn't begin well too but he raised his level since the clay season and sustained his good level throughout the rest of the season. This year he wasn't able to do so, being shaky throughout the clay season, especially during the early stages of the FO. Still he's better than the rest of the field and only a Nole who has raised his game to a new level this year is ahead of him.

If we compare his ranking points, they're about the same as last year, less off those points lost because he lost the finals to Nole. However, looked at the scoreline of his matches, especially on clay, for his matches before the final, and you'll notice the difference. The number of sets lost this year too, other than those lost to Nole, would also tell you where Rafa's clay game was at this year, compared to last year.

Sienna a question, why do you put ? in between your posts . Like Chr?st or rafa?s .
? usually means that you are confused and seek some clarity . We already know that you are confused. I can visualize your situation (seems like you are getting drowned and somebody has thrown you both ends of the rope). You are clueless?

fedexal, are you thick?

It's not Sienna who does this. It's mine. It?s my keyboard.

It?s my keyboard sometimes st?cks. you didn't work that one out?

What's your problem with it? Get some glasses and stop compla?ning (another excuse from the rafa team).

I very happy. Djokovic kicks Nadal again. 6 finals. I not Djokovic fan. But, it is great.

Becuase, Nadal looks down Sampras and great past players.

Sampras is greatest then arrogant cheater Nadal.


I never like Nadal. too noisy always. fake time-out always. fake take time always. ugly gamesmanship. annoying. overrated. Arrogant fans.

great job, Djokovic

fedexal
If you think I am fleur then i would be very proud. Her psotings are razorsharp and shows she is very aware of tennishistory and is knowledgable on current states of affair in tennis. And she doesnot back down from the haters on this site.

Sienna, fedexal only think there is one federer fan here!

Thick. He must learn to focus fedexal, focus.

I think fedexal is luckystar.
see the post here:

Just think, Fed at the beginning of last year played very well to win the AO; can that Fed beat this Nole at AO this year? That Rafa of 2010, who had a clean sweep of the clay court Masters, losing only two sets throughout the whole clay season last year, not losing a single set during the FO, can this Nole match up to that Rafa of 2010 on clay? Can this Nole beat last year's Fed at Canada and Cincy, and Rafa at last year's 2010?

luckystar. Really, it is time to move on. You must have 20 plus posts here ranting about rafa. He's done. Gone.

New cowboy in town. Put your guns away Lucky, take a beer. J

oin the hoff at the bar.

He's wa?ting for you. But don?t stand him up! He won?t be happy.

Sienna, I love your posts.

You defend yourself well.

Praising yourself in the mirror...Sick!

@fleur... "It?s my keyboard sometimes st?cks"... correction... "STINKS"
...and your brain??? let me se... stucks...sucks... ???

Fleur be prepared for luckystar's reply... normally she cannot keep her wordcount down to 1.000 words if she starts to lose it then her commentswill dubble in size.

Not taking the bait for provoking. In any case my earlier post is meant for torres, those who meant to provoke need not bother. Some more provoking, I'll alert the moderators.

Fleur
, 9/18/11 12:07 PM

Sienna, I love your posts.


I will repeat what I said earlier . Fleur/Sienna gay or les**, this is the question that is crossing everybody's mind(I think if Roger had visited TT, he would have thought the same).

Fedexal you have a problem with gay or les? But how can it be if we are the same?

Fleur/Sienna: Why dont you just go and watch some tennis instead of lurking around here dripping your poison at every turn.

Settle down old man! Just saw the most horrific retirement of the century. ATP#1 in home tie losing the 3 point and thus giving away DC in front of thousand and thousands serbian nationalists.
I hope no riots occur that involve the argentines and they get a safe passage to airport...you would not want to stick their between the haters we all have witnessed what happens if they get going.

still chauvinistic pig???... ask the Argentineans how they were accepted in Belgrade !?!

Fleur, 9/18/11 8:50 AM,

My only response to your gibberish is to say - What?

You make no sense, but that is to be expected.

To the moderators - I think that fleur has poisoned this site long enough with her psychotic rants. She is incapable of posting anything about tennis, any rational, reasonable comments, merely coming on here to post increasingly bizarre and nonsensical ravings.

Please put this unfortunate soul out of her misery by banning her from this site.

NNY, i really wish that you have any opinion on tennis at all for me to say 'your opinion doesn't matter to me, too'? But you have little close to none so you win on that basis.

Seems like to me, most of your posts is to defend Rafa. Any critisism to Rafa or Rafans by me are 'attacks'. Maybe I went overboard a number of times, sry for that, I've been told time and time again especially by you, but this is tennistalk. We criticize players.

Sosueme, really ignoring you is the best option for me, your rivals here are Fleur, numero. I have no business going in circles with you.

lucky, well, i do believe Rafa's level is not as good as it is in 2010 but not by far, but it may be due to 1)Novak suppresses his strengths 2) he's not confident which is due to not winning against Novak

Anyway, this thread is a mess now I really would like to discuss other things in other thread.

Nite, nite, kids.

rafaisthebest, 9/15/11 8:44 AM

Yes, we've never addressed each other before. You've never gotten into it with me about when I called you out saying Nadal "didn't try his absolute best because he saw Nole was on a different level." Oh wait, except you did. Just like torres9, comments like yours speak for themselves.