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Cheryl Murray

  • Bill Tilden and the effects of moral bankruptcy on a legacy

    2013-05-17 18:03:30

    So I had a wide range of potential writing topics available to me this week. I could have written about the rise of the next generation *coughabouttimecough*. I could have taken the easy route and heaped well-earned abuse on John Tomic, who is just another in a long line of Jim Pierces and Damir Dokics to embarrass the sport and make the term "tennis father" sound like an epithet.

    But as I prepared my blog this week, the Tennis Channel aired a mini-documentary on Rene Lacoste and Bill Tilden and I decided to write a piece that has been simmering on the back burner of my brain for a long time.

    Bill Tilden's place in tennis history should be undisputed. He was not only the best player of the 1920s, he not only amassed 7 US Championship titles, was the first American to win Wimbledon and lead the United States to 7 consecutive Davis Cup titles, he was also a master tactician. He knew the sport inside and out and wrote books dedicated to the subject.

    He also has the distinction of having been a filthy pedophile who was arrested twice for what today would be called child molestation charges. He, you see, had an attraction to young boys. And thanks to his own wealth and his connections as a world-class athlete (he was friends with the likes of Charlie Chaplin) he thought he was above such petty things as the law.

    In fact, so arrogant was he, that he chose to defend himself during his trials, counting on his fame and influence to get him out of the jam. It did not. He went to jail and the tennis world was embarrassed. They didn't want to talk about Tilden's personal life.

    But tennis historians insist on bringing him up. They don't want us to forget, they claim, how much Tilden influenced the game.

    The New York Times did a piece back in 2009 on Tilden, claiming that he was done in by his vices. Er....I'm sorry? Vices? We're not talking about a penchant for smoking cigarettes or romancing the ladies. This isn't a story about how Bill Tilden liked to over-eat or bought too many expensive cars. He hurt children, probably more than 2, but at least 2 that we know about.

    Now, perhaps this makes me sound unforgiving, but I don't care how good Bill Tilden was on the tennis court. I don't care what he knew about swinging a racket, or how athletic he was. I don't care that he was the most skillful player of his generation.

    Yes, he "paid his debt". He spent a handful of months in jail and this entry isn't meant as a post-humous witch hunt. But to shrug off his actions as simply an embarrassment, or worse to revere his ability to play a game whilst ignoring his absolute failure as a human being is downright irresponsible.

    So, Tennis Channel, show me Arthur Ashe or Billy Jean King. Extol the virtues of Roger and Rafa. Talk about Andre Agassi's school. Discuss McEnroe and Borg, give me Rod Laver or that great innovator Rene Lacoste. But I'll pass on the reminders of what Bill Tilden did for the sport of tennis. In the grand scheme of things, what is a game compared to the wrecked lives of young boys who were unfortunate enough to cross "Big Bill's" path?

Tell a friend »

Comments

This reminds me of Michael Jackson.

lloyd , 5/17/13 11:09 PM


well put, Cheryl
professional sports have their high importance: they inspire millions of us for all we face in life
but beyond that a game is just a game, while violating young people usually has enormous consequences on their lives

chlorostoma , 5/17/13 11:20 PM


Excellent editorial Cheryl.

I was not aware of this until now. Amazing how ugliness is buried and minimized too often.

Conspirator , 5/17/13 11:50 PM


it has been said thousand times in various articles and why should not tennis channels shows his on court skill or achievements after all they are sports channel not some old fat ladies tv serial channel to care about someone personal life.

He got the punishment what he did and law prevail and it should not have any say in his on court mastery.

#Don'tbeOverSentimental

KMA , 5/18/13 12:37 AM


Thank you, chlorostoma and Conspirator.

KMA - Bill Tilden's private life has absolutely no bearing on this article nor do I care anything about it whatsoever. Had he indulged a shoe fetish, came out as a homosexual or the like I'd be the first to say "none of my business". But he committed heinous crimes against children. It was a matter of public record. Hence, not private life.

Also, sentimentality has nothing to do with it. I merely find it HIGHLY distasteful to celebrate an athlete who was a despicable human being.

cherylmurray , 5/18/13 4:05 AM


Sickening. What an odious character. Anyone who hurts children deserves the opprobrium he gets.

rafaisthebest , 5/18/13 5:55 AM


KMA, don't make it so obvious that fans like you fully support certain players and such activities!

jean , 5/18/13 9:14 AM


it has been said thousand times in various articles and why should not tennis channels shows his on court skill or achievements after all they are sports channel not some old fat ladies tv serial channel to care about someone personal life.

He got the punishment what he did and law prevail and it should not have any say in his on court mastery.
#Don'tbeOverSentimental
KMA, 5/18/13 12:37 AM


KMA, This says more about you than anything you've ever posted.

Thanks Cheryl, I was unaware of this.

nadline , 5/18/13 9:58 AM


KMA, I'm so glad you are not a Rafan, I would have been so ashamed of you.


#disgusted

nadline , 5/18/13 10:00 AM


KMAs remark is in line with the disgusting posts he usually makes.

holdserve , 5/18/13 1:10 PM


cherylmurray , 5/18/13 4:05 AM

Alot of athletes and celebrities has been involved in various heinous activites but people still like them ...MJ/Tyson/Woods and many more in various fields.

@DullTards ...keep Barking.

KMA , 5/18/13 2:06 PM


KMA,

When did MJ/Tyson/Woods engage in paedophilic behaviour? You don't get it do you. Tilden defiled children! Children. But then again, for people like you, children are fair game.....

rafaisthebest , 5/18/13 2:24 PM


rafaisthebest , 5/18/13 2:24 PM

Yepp..FO!!

KMA , 5/18/13 2:27 PM


KMA , 5/18/13 2:27 PM

Don't worry. We all get who you are by the quality of your language and posts.

rafaisthebest , 5/18/13 2:33 PM


http://www.eonline.com/news/419620/wade-robson-michael-jackson-was-a-p edophile-who-sexually-abused-me

chr18 , 5/18/13 6:59 PM


^^^Well done. Am sure you are busy trawling the internet searching for sordid news stories on the other 2. Enjoy.

rafaisthebest , 5/18/13 7:24 PM


". I merely find it HIGHLY distasteful to celebrate an athlete who was a despicable human being."

Cheryl, if more fans and commentators thought like you, I think the international world of sport would be very very different.

mara002 , 5/18/13 10:52 PM


mara -- it doesn't get much more despicable than child abuse.

I mean, Tiger Woods is a monumentally bad decision maker and obviously a lousy husband...but as far as I'm concerned he's just a tool.

cherylmurray , 5/19/13 2:06 AM


You have to wonder which era we are living in. The guy has been jailed and he did his time. I am guessing you want people to stone him to death to satisfy your "moral standards"? I think the society, atleast in the western world, has come a long way from throwing humans to lions to justify the "moral standards" of certain individuals.

Anyone who equates greatness in a sport to greatness as a human-being is obviously not well-versed with how things work. Bill Tilden is a great tennis player/coach/mentor does not, logically speaking, infer Bill Tilden is a great human being. To assume such a thing shows lack of logical thinking and reasoning abilities and common sense.

Fedkovic23 , 5/19/13 2:57 AM


To ASSUME such a thing shows lack of logical thinking and reasoning abilities and common sense.

Another fedtard who misses the point. It seems to be a pattern with these rats.

jean , 5/19/13 3:30 AM


Federer20, 5/19/13 2:57 AM

#Yawn
#10-20
#PDFFT

Conspirator , 5/19/13 3:32 AM


But it's true though. Bill Tilden was a great tennis player, but an absolute failure as a human being. There's nothing incorrect about that.(nor do the two things contradict each other).

tj600 , 5/19/13 3:45 AM


You missed her point. She didn't say those facts were incorrect. She stated them actually.

Tilden's tennis shouldn't be celebrated while his crimes are trivialized or glossed over.

Conspirator , 5/19/13 4:01 AM


tj600 - succinctly put. I doubt anyone in the know would doubt Tilden's tennis ability. His record, after all, speaks for itself. The real question is where civilized society should draw the line.

It seems to me that committing certain atrocities ought to nullify how impressed we are over achievements. Because if we cannot bring ourselves to say "It's too bad that Bill Tilden was a disgusting piece of garbage who molested children. He could have been known as one of the greats of tennis." we fail.

Perhaps that should be a price you pay for the destruction of who knows how many lives. And perhaps every time society says things like "His vices did him in" or "Don't forget Bill Tilden's legacy" we are sending a message to victims everywhere that they are only important as long as the abuser isn't someone with sporting prowess or fame.

cherylmurray , 5/19/13 4:14 AM


Another fedtard who misses the point. It seems to be a pattern with these rats.
jean , 5/19/13 3:30 AM "

Now we're rats? any more lovely names you got reserved for us jean?

scoretracker , 5/19/13 6:36 AM


I think Cheryl made the case for looking at a great athlete in terms of not only his achievements in sport, but who he was as a person. It's unfortunate that it was glossed over and covered up or ignored. It's hard do separate what someone does on the court from crimes committed against the children who are the most vulnerable in society.

Tilden's legacy should be tainted by his horrific behavior. If Tilden wasn't famous or a great athlete, would he have been treated differently? What he achieved in the sport of tennis will forever be overshadowed by the crimes he committed.

Nativenewyorker , 5/19/13 7:05 AM


KMA and his ilk are not able to understand the difference between a criminal and a philanderer? Philandering is not a crime. In fact lots of women throw themselves at celebrities and rich men so really no one can say these women are victims. Even in MJs case I suspect the kids had been put up to lying by their parents to get money. One kid admitted as much.
Fed fans obviously have scrambled brains. No wonder some of them with IQ 9, 17 and 23 are proudly displaying their IQ credentials. In Fedfan land, probably most of the inhabitants have IQ 0 or less, so anyone with positive IQ is royalty.

holdserve , 5/19/13 7:23 AM


Philandering is not a crime? Maybe to gold-diggers, but the women I have come across are not cheap trash that would love to be with men who cheat because they have some dow. To each their own.

Unless you are the Jury chosen for Tilden's trial, you have no business judging the guy. We have moved past those dark ages where public judges a guy for his crime - at least in the western world. Such practice is common in certain countries in asia and africa but in such countries a lot of paedophiles are not even reported.

If you are a rafatard who gets all muddled between a great tennis player and a great tennis being because you have sub-zero IQ, I cannot convince you, but to most of us, it is quite clear that celebrating a great tennis player doesn't equate to celebrating a great human being.

I idolize a lot of sports icons, but I am smart enough to know that these guys will not be forming the next biggest religion/moral following or formulating laws for the society. To think so displays your naivete and lack of knowledge. There are other people qualified to do so.

While we are at it, a lot of the rafabots are not even qualified to talk about tennis, seeing as they think French Open is a greater tournament than Wimbledon!

Fedkovic23 , 5/19/13 11:52 AM


#Yawn
#10-20
#PDFFT

Conspirator , 5/19/13 12:13 PM


No. Philandering is not a crime. Has Tiger Woods been arrested? Brought up on charges?

Exactly.

cherylmurray , 5/19/13 2:07 PM


hahahahaha the high schooler needs to dutifully rebut Fedkovic23 for some reason, but is so messing itself from the fedal h2h it can't figure out how to counter an argument about Bill Tilden.

And let me make 1 thing clear: I believe Michael Jackson was also a pedophile and deserved to be jailed and was a mentally challenged if not despicable human being. But holdserve, the fact that you'd ever trust testimony from 1 child as evidence enough for anything shows you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Try taking a course in psychology or reading some experimental results to see how reliable children's testimony can be.

ts38 , 5/19/13 11:10 PM


#Yawn
#10-20
#PDFFT

Conspirator , 5/19/13 11:24 PM


Philandering is not a crime? Maybe to gold-diggers, but the women I have come across are not cheap trash that would love to be with men who cheat because they have some dow. To each their own.

Fedkovic23, 5/19/13 11:52 AM

Dow? I presume you mean to say money and the slang for that would be dough. Geez, for someone who has told all of us about his superior intellect, one would think that he would know how to spell that word! So who has the sub-zero IQ now? If you want to make fun of others, then make sure that you can spell a word that any grade school kid could spell.

Nativenewyorker , 5/20/13 12:01 AM


Thank you Cheryl for a courageous article.

Even today it is difficult for a child to make him/herself heard and believed when they are the victim of abuse with the result many perpetrators of crimes against children are never brought to trial. In the case of Tilden he was caught on two occasions openly soliciting young boys but there is no way of knowing how many other lives he may have scarred.

The tragedy is that so many people, including those in a position of authority, turn a blind eye particularly if it is a celebrity involved. Furthermore the celebrity culture leads the perpetrators to believe they are untouchable - as happened with Tilden.

A current example very much in the news is the disgraceful cover up by the BBC over the sordid Jimmy Savile affair and the reluctance of countless people who ignored all the warning signs because he was raising money for children's charities. In the wake of the Savile investigation, to date, 11 other high profile people (with more to come) have been arrested and are facing charges.

ed251137 , 5/20/13 12:40 AM


@ts38:

there is name for such people who keep begging from posts like the constipator. applies to new-yapper too - Attention ..... you know the last 5 letters :)

Cheryl, I take it that Bill Tilden was brought to you to deliver your verdict? If not your judging of Tilden is no better than me judging Woods/MJ. Yes, according to me, people who cheat on their spouses and kids/family are as much of the scum as paedophiles. As I said, to each their own. In a lot of cultures [asian/islamic/hindu] promiscuity is as much of a crime as paedophilia, if not bigger. Since your knowledge confines you to western law, doesn't make Woods any better a person than Tilden. Yet here you are defending Woods the person, while I have never defended Tilden the person. I only defended the fact that an intelligent person can see that Tilden/Woods/MJ is a great tennis/golf/entertainer/player/coach is a mutually exclusive statement from Tilden/Woods/MJ being great human being. It only reflects on the lack of ability to process information if you get those 2 statements mixed.

I like how you have not even mentioned MJ being celebrated and even worse mr.Hitler is mentioned as a great leader in a lot of documentaries on the history channel/BBC. I guess they should have such programs IQ rated so that lesser intelligent people don't interpret someone being succcessful in a field as being a greater human being.

new-yapper:

ask your tech-savant friends about voice recognition software. I know you are from the era of type-writers. Thanks for displaying your stupidity in all its splendour.

Fedkovic23 , 5/20/13 12:41 AM


#Yawn
#10-20
#PDFFT

Conspirator , 5/20/13 12:50 AM


Crap voice recognition software would spell dough dow.

Hehe

#BS

Conspirator , 5/20/13 12:57 AM


^^^^

Thanks! So the pseudo smart guy thought he had a ready answer. Nice way to cover up a really dumb mistake!

I see that the rudeness even extends to Cheryl. I guess when you are a legend only in your own mind and need to resort to attacking people under an anonymous screen name to boost your own lack of self-esteem, then this is how you act!

As obnoxious as this person is, it's kind of sad that anyone would have to go to such lengths to try to prove their superiority, at least in their own minds.

#DelusionsofGrandeur
#Boring

Nativenewyorker , 5/20/13 3:52 AM


Great post Cheryl...
Fedkovic... You need help...

zare , 5/20/13 11:48 AM


It is incomprehensible there are people today who think sexual abuse of children by an adult is an unfortunate abberation. Or worse still that if action is taken against the perpetrators it is driven by homophobia as suggested by the NY Times.

It is just this kind of woolly thinking which allowed the odious Jimmy Savile to abuse as many as 450 children without action being taken against him. His vice was young girls - one victim being an eight year old at a hospital he was visiting.

ed251137 , 5/20/13 3:56 PM


Fedkovic seems to revel in revealing his ignorance and making false statements. He says in asian/ Muslim/Hindu cultures philandering is a crime. Since when? Philandering is not a crime in any culture or religion. Adultery is. But adultery is defined only for married women, not married men. Men can have wives, numerous mistresses or concubines and it is not a crime as long as they do not do it with a married woman, in which case it is crime against the husband of the married woman.
As far as I know, Woods did not "philander" with a married woman. So even if he was in one of those countries where the medieval law still holds, he wouldn't be a criminal.
Fedkovic would no doubt celebrate a serial killer too if he was a great athlete. Disgusting! Feel sorry for Fed for having such fans.

holdserve , 5/20/13 4:49 PM


Muslim law was amended by Mohammed the Prophet to retrict the number of wives to 4. hindu law was amended in the 20th century to restrict number of wives to 1. Adultery is still a crime under Sharia but defined only where married women are involved. Adultery is no longer a crime under Hindu law.
In China, adultery was never against the law but adulterers were punished if a married woman was involved and that too only in secluded villages away from the mainstream.
In short, philandering was not a crime unless you violated the "rights" of another man.

holdserve , 5/20/13 5:21 PM


Ed, Jimmy Savile is an excellent case in point. So much went wrong there, it's hard to even know where to start pointing fingers. But I know this -- the BBC has much to be ashamed about on that score.

Of course, it begs the question. Jimmy Savile raised MUCH money for hospital charities. Ought we to applaud the few good things he did and forget that he was clearly a monster? I say no.

cherylmurray , 5/20/13 5:24 PM


@holdserve, philandering is not a crime that's punishable by law. The only impact and/or consequences such behavior has on the offender is when there's a divorce proceeding taking place, as philandering will sway the case in favor of the one who's committing such acts, e.g., grounds for divorce and higher alimony payments for loss of consortium, mental cruelty and depressing. Other than those consequences, the philanderer can indulge him/herself.

You are incorrect with respect to adultery. In the US it is a crime. However in Eastern civilizations it's allowed as the norm, where one man can have many wives. If we were to trace the root of such actions, it would be shown that a man was allowed to have many wives for economic reasons, and it still continues in Muslim religion. However, not as much as was once the practice in days of yore. Also, the Muslim religion provides for a man to marry his brother's widow again for economic reasons.

Saying that Woods was not a philander in these United states is false, and it's the reason he had to pay such a huge amount of alimony for mental cruelty, emotional pain and suffering and loss of consortium.the law is clear on sch practices and the penalty is felt where it hurts the most, the bank account of philandering men. a philandering woman can be divorced on those grounds, and her alimony would be much smaller due to the husband's loss of consortium and mental cruety/depression, ertc.

In eastern civilizations philandering is the norm but in Western civilizations, it has its consequences, as I've outlined above.

It's laughable to see that some will stoop at nothing to discredit those who are not of their ilk, making fun of someone for a typo. It's sad that some cannot understand that writing on a blog is not writing a term pape, where we have to dot our i(s) and cross our t(s) but some will look for anything they can find to once again put on a display of their immaturity. This article reminds me of a previous article wherein a poster asked some very pertinent questions in disagreement but was ridiculed and even ordered to apologize to the writer, so that their names can be etched in gold in the book of rewards. And, now again, it's the same bunch who are looking for the kudos to pad the ledger that keeps an accouint of their kudos.

Further, those who are criticizing some posters are the ones who have nothing to write on the topic at hand, but merely going after someone they dislike for reasons which are on display every time they write a nonsensical post, simultanously preaching their subjective moralistic opinions that does not pertain to the title of this blog. Is it any wonder why some posters are dubbed ill-educated and possessing negative IQs. Those posters have done what they usually do, pick a poster who does not tow the line, and lash out against them albeit their garbled posts are totally iirrelevant to the matter being discussed.

I'm at a loss as to why after so many years, close to a century after Tilden's acts, it has become necessary to write about his his actons.

scoretracker , 5/20/13 5:42 PM


Cheryl: as a former press officer for a major UK children's charity, I have a very jaundiced view of celebrities who become involved in fund raising. The old adage 'there's no such thing as a truly altruistic person' more often than not applies. Unfortunately charitable organisations are not in a position to be too squeamish about their motives if that person is bringing in the money. Basically Savile was blackmailing people to turn a blind eye.

ed251137 , 5/20/13 7:17 PM


Yet one more time we have to be lectured by the sanctimonious one. For myself, I specifically called out the misspelling of the word because this individual has set himself up as the superior being in every way possible. If you are going to come on a tennis site and start trashing and insulting anyone and everyone as to their supposed lack of intelligence and education, making statements about it without one shred of fact or substance,, then you can expect to be called out if you don't live up to your own lofty standards.

ed,

I don't know who this Jimmy Savile is. Could you perhaps elaborate?

Nativenewyorker , 5/20/13 8:09 PM


Fedkovic23:

Great posts. I do agree that one needs to apply same standards to apply for everyone. Bill Tilden is a pathetic human being, and so is Tiger Woods or Michael Jackson. I do not know how people can condone such people as Tiger Woods or Michael Jackson and try to project them as charmers or having a great personality.

Scoretracker:

Good to see people like yourself and Fedkovic not trying to be sycophants and sucking up to the bloggers like everybody else. Interesting points of view and comments.

Holdserve:

Being an Asian, myself, I can say adultery is treated as a crime in rural areas of China and I definitely know more than one instance of the villagers -in my grandmother's place, beating up guys who cheated on their wives.

JamesDjokovicFan , 5/20/13 8:40 PM


#Yawn
#20-10
#PDFFT

Conspirator , 5/20/13 9:14 PM


JamesDjokovicFan, 5/20/13 8:40 PM,

As opposed to you, who sucks up to Fedkovic and Scoretracker. Hypocritical much?

Nativenewyorker , 5/20/13 9:46 PM


NNY -- Jimmy Savile was a television presenter for the BBC. He did a bunch of charity work for children's hospitals and children's homes. There had been rumors circulating for DECADES about alleged abuse of kids, but the police kept saying they didn't have enough evidence.

He has been accused by 450 people of what they call "unprecedented" abuse. His accusers were said to have included sick children in hospitals and orphans.

To those of you arguing over whether philandering is a crime...I don't understand why any of you are mentioning Muslim or Asian nations. Bill Tilden was an American, subject to American laws.

cherylmurray , 5/20/13 9:53 PM


Cheryl,

Thanks for that information. That sounds absolutely horrific.

I also have no idea why there is any discussion or argument about philandering being a crime. Fedkovic brought up Tiger Woods, Michael Jackson and even Hitler for heaven's sake! He was also the one who brought up philandering and Asian, Islamic and Hindu cultures along with promiscuity.

Talk about getting off topic!

Nativenewyorker , 5/20/13 10:56 PM


@James8:40Pm, thanks. Just ignore the NNY, she cannot resist getting in her daily quota of rants and digs, not to mention getting off topic. She sees what she wants to see., and all's OK if you are one of her gang buddies,

scoretracker , 5/21/13 12:21 AM


Forgot to mention. As per usual, nothing is left on the thread(s) where an argument took place between NNY, and anyone she hates. It's repeated, carried forward from thread to thread, coz she's always looking to start a war. Hypocrisy abounds.

scoretracker , 5/21/13 12:25 AM


scoretracker, 5/21/13 12:25 AM

#QueenOfHypocricy
#10-20
#Yawn

Conspirator , 5/21/13 1:08 AM


In short Fedfans think pedophilia is no more serious than philandering.
I have worked with disturbed kids , several of whom had been abused by adults in trusted positions like docors, priests, social workers. Quite a few became drug addicts in their teens and a few committed suicide. These children are the victims of abuse but at least they were not killed.
Cases of paedophilics kidnapping kids below 10, even as young as a few months old are even more horrifying as in most cases the victims are killed.
Anyway. never mind Fedfans think paedophilia is not a serious crime. They also think Fed is the GOAT. Thank God they hate Rafa. Obviously they are attracted by evil and shun goodness. Like the Deatheaters.

holdserve , 5/21/13 4:17 AM


Harry Potter,really? I am shocked rafabots with sub-zero IQs can quote that one. Most of them can hardly get past Thomas the Tank Engine.

Bravo Rafabot! you have gone to a place no other rafafart has ventured.

I will humour even a -IQ creature like you. It is the rafabots who want to suck the life out of a person who has already done his time as directed by the jury. If you want to play Judge, without legally being qualified, people WILL call you out - which was what Cheryl was doing. Obviously rafabots like you who are incapable of thinking will nod your heads like sheep. Unfortunately for your ilk, there are people who are capable and qualified to look at a bigger world than the blind caves in which rafabats dwell!

Cheryl,

Comments on Islamic/Asian law is to establish that people taking law into their hands and trying to be the moral police belongs to the barbaric/uncivilised world. If Woods was in a society where people were stoned to death for adultery, he would have been convicted by the people/society just like Tilden was. Woods escaped conviction because he lives in a more civilised society with liberal laws.

Bottom-line is to say Tilden was a sicko and then turn-around proclaim that Woods/MJ are saints is illogical and irrational. Ofcourse, a good knowledge of legal systems around the world and across history and how societies work will make it abundantly clear that saying " X is a great athlete" does not readily imply that we are celbrating X as a human being.

Fedkovic23 , 5/21/13 5:30 AM


It is all about gradients. Tiger Woods' philandering ways make him a douche. Bill Tilden engaged in heinous acts that disallow me, at least, from remembering him in anything other than a tainted light. I won't comment on the other arguments and tangents, because they've meandered wildly off track. Cheryl's point is simple: a person's legacy is deservedly darkened by such an atrocity, and referring to it as a "vice" is just appallingly stupid. No one is denying Tilden's skills as a tennis player, but legacies have been destroyed by less, and if his accomplishments are to be remembered they ought to be mitigated by stronger words than "vices".

Champion7 , 5/21/13 6:41 AM


^^^^

It's nice to see you here and I appreciate your good common sense and decency. As you said so well, the arguments have gone way off track. But that seems to be the only tool that some here have at their disposal. They bring up red herrings and unrelated issues that have no bearing on this serious issue.

Who cares about Tiger Woods or Hitler for that matter! Also, this idea that anyone is saying that Tiger Woods or Michael Jackson are saints is totally erroneous. That is a dishonest comment, because no one here is holding either of them as a shining example of a human being.

Cheryl took great pains to acknowledge Bill Tilden's considerable tennis achievements. No one here has tried to deny what he did in the sport. However, the point which has been so unfortunately missed by a few, is that what he did in his private life was so heinous and nefarious as to besmirch his legacy. It's not about cheating on your wife! This is preying on the most vulnerable in society - young children who cannot protect themselves.

Nativenewyorker , 5/21/13 6:52 AM


Fedkovic -- The person who brought up Tiger Woods and Michael Jackson was disagreeing with me. I certainly didn't bring them up and honestly, neither of them has anything to do with my blog. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't know the particulars of the Tilden case. The police literally caught him both times. This wasn't a circumstance in which the children or their parents brought charges against Tilden and it was their word against his. He was found NAKED IN HIS CAR with young boys in compromising positions. TWICE.

Champion - That was succinctly put. Thank you.

NNY -- And that is the crux of the problem. A crime of injury, abuse or victimization becomes increasingly heinous, the more vulnerable the victim is. And that's as it should be. The justice system MUST advocate for the helpless. And society as a whole has an obligation to react strongly to such crimes as Tilden's. No matter what the man was good at, his accomplishments should always ALWAYS be spoken with the modifier of his crimes.

cherylmurray , 5/21/13 1:24 PM


Federer20 is a troll. There is no point trying to have a discussion with a troll. They are just looking to get a response.

#Eyeroll
#10-20
#Yawn

Conspirator , 5/21/13 2:12 PM


It is utterly sickening there are people using this thread as an excuse for a fan slanging match. Shame on you all.

ed251137 , 5/21/13 6:03 PM


@Cheryl Murray

I agree with you regarding Tilden. However, your claim that Tiger Woods and Michael Jackson have nothing to do with your blog, doesn't carry much weight. You are talking about society's indifference to perversion/immorality and those 2 definitely fit the bill. I doubt the victims that those 2 have hurt will agree with you that they are not monsters like Tilden.

As someone mentioned, many people refer to Hitler as a great orator, writer and excellent leader. If society is going to get tough on criminals/offenders, that is a big proof that things are not going in the right direction.

novakisthebest , 5/21/13 6:15 PM


novakisthebest -- The reason I say that they are unrelated is because...well...they're unrelated. Tiger Woods is a tool and obviously a horrible husband. But his transgressions (as far as I'm aware) do not extend to the criminal act of sexual assault. He is, as such, a crappy person but neither a criminal NOR an offender.

Michael Jackson may have very well been a child predator. But at best we're GUESSING at what he did, since there is no conviction on record.

Tilden was caught in the act twice by police officers. It would appear he couldn't even control himself long enough to get somewhere private to commit his atrocities. In short, there isn't even a speck of reasonable doubt in Tilden's case.

cherylmurray , 5/21/13 8:05 PM


novakisthebest, are you feeling ok?

Tilden was convicted of a crime. Jackson and Woods were not convicted of a crime. Woods was not even suspected of a crime.

You are confusing me. I don't understand you. Most tennis fans are smarter and can understand this.

restofATPisthebest , 5/21/13 8:16 PM


I thought we'd seen it all in utterly base (and boring) trolling and uncivility (from 'fans'). But to read the posts on *this* topic here, and their repetitions and justification.... when the subject is that clear - just read Cheryl's clear words - I ask you!

chlorostoma , 5/22/13 2:43 AM


Thanks @novakisthebest. That has been the point primarily - people cursing Tilden but trying to project Woods/Jackson.

Get this - A lot of articles regarding Tilden's crimes say the Jury might have convicted him more out of homophobia rather than paedophilia. Who is to say Tilden might have not got a clean chit if he had hired some fancy lawyers. If yes, does it make hime less sick? That is quite stupid because you are condoning a guy because he is cunning enough to cover up his perverted nature - exactly the things Woods/Jackson did.

Again, I repeat there is a legal system in place to judge people and decide on their fate. This is how a civilised society works. You don't go stoning that person's house or dancing on their graves because the jury did not meet your moral standards with their verdict.

I have not condoned Tilden's perverted acts like those who have condoned Woods/Jackson's crimes. My argument was all of those 3 are sick perverted human beings and that Tilden was not the only celebrity/athlete who people view as 2 different entities - the person and the athlete/celbrity.

Fedkovic23 , 5/22/13 5:01 PM


Thanking yourself again.

#TinfoilHat

Conspirator , 5/22/13 6:15 PM


It is obvious neither Fedkovic nor Novakisthebest know what they really think. They are putting forward spurious arguments in a pathetic attempt to discredit anybody who agrees with the premise put forward by Ms. Murray. i.e. the majority who have posted comments on this issue.

#Despicable
#EnoughIsEnough

ed251137 , 5/22/13 7:18 PM


What is quite bizarre in Fedkovic's latest post, is the convoluted thinking and contradictions. No one here has condoned Woods or Jackson's so-called "crimes"! As a matter of fact, Michael Jackson was acquitted of the charges. Tiger Woods wasn't put on trial because, wait for it, it's not a crime to cheat on your wife! Get it!

These are tired old diversionary tactics meant to obfuscate the real issue. Also the red herring about stoning a person's house or dancing on their graves. No one has stoned anyone's house, so where on earth does that nonsense come from?

As ed said, this is being done for the sole purpose of arguing and disagreeing for the sake of it, not out of any honest belief or real argument.

Nativenewyorker , 5/22/13 9:34 PM



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