Depressing indeed, cheryl.......................I hope for the good of the game there has not been any cheating on the part of USTA. I shudder to think of the implications were it to be proven otherwise.

Just proves that people are not stupid, tennis fans have smelt a rat for ages. Take the USO 2009 for instance when, in the first round, Federer was drawn against a college W/C who was ranked outside the top 1000 and Rafa was drawn against Gasquet a former top 10 player who had just returned from a ban.

I don't think this only applies to the USO, I'm sure it goes on at other tournaments all the time. Twice now, Kelli has said that Federer and Rafa will meet in the SF when the published draw clearly shows that they are on opposite sides of the draw. The same thing happened at Wimbledon this year when a member of staff at the AELTA twitted that Federer was in Rafa's draw but later on that was said to be a mistake.

Here is the link:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6850893/espn-analysis- finds-top-seeds-tennis-us-open-had-easier-draw-statistically-likely

Where there's money to be made, there's corruption. I'm quite sure there's plenty more going on behind the scenes in tennis in order to generate money using means that aren't honest/ethical. This is why I hate the view that tennis or the ATP is primarily a business - because it shouldn't be. Money has messed up sports like baseball, cricket and the likes, and sometimes you feel it might do the same with tennis.

^^ I meant to say the greed culture has messed up certain sports. Money is good for any sport until you make it the primary objective.

Hey Cheryl,
I have a suggestion for USTA which if implemented would ensure that they would not be subject to any manipulations of the unseeded part of the draw by third parties or even allow any of their own people to do anything shady. Or at least anything more shady than what is happening with the seeded part of the draw. Right now, while the seeded part draw is done in public, the unseeded part is closed and non-transparent and is easily amenable to manipulations.
With the allegation by ESPN , I am sure they would be interested in my suggestion.
Could you tell me how I can contact USTA?

It's been admited that the schedule is controlled by TV companies so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the draw itself was. TV ratings are the most important element of any tournament so they would obviously want the top seeds to make it to the final.

Well Nadanino clearly missed the point about the subject.
And of course it is all about giving Fed easy draws.
I smell the rat for years and he's from a island near spain.
The draws youre boy has been getting has seen him true his career slam. He should never have made the final last year US Open if his draw was not fixxed.

Thank God!!! Someone finally said: " The King is Naked!!!!"
Novak and Fed... on all HCs and Wimby... only on clay Novak gets Rafa!!!
Wouldn't it be nice to see Fedal SF from time to time!!!
...and draw is only one thing. Scheduling of matches is also something for discussion.
Some players are in locker rooms for hours... and some are visiting local attractions,
relaxed coz they always play first, play in the evening... or when ever they want.
And reason for that is always TV companies...
At the and we shall have matches like in american wrestling! Everything for money, for show!!!
Tennis needs justice and equal standards for every player on ATP Tour!!!

nadline: Sky has admitted pressurising tournaments so that Andy always plays US tournaments in the afternoon as this is the best time for UK audiences. Never mind this is the worst time for Andy as it's the hottest time of the day. Cincy last year being a case in point..

"As for the No. 1 and 2 seeds, representatives for Federer and Rafael Nadal declined a request for an interview. Representatives for recent top female seeds Jankovic, Serena Williams, Caroline Wozniacki, and Kim Clijsters also declined comment."
Hehehe....

"Novak and Fed... on all HCs and Wimby... only on clay Novak gets Rafa!!!"

when was this? it wsn't this year and i can't really remember draws from other years

^^ sib, its always been like that! except for FO 2009 and 2011, where Nole and Fed have been on the same side, its always Nole and Nadal in FO, and Nole and Fed (and also Roddick actually) in the other slams, and especially the USO.

Who cares , its all a show, everything is , almost are sports are. Infact the much more serious things like politics and economics on which peoples lives depend on is a bigger showfest. The amount of money that sports people get paid is just open corruption, I feel. Get on with it , this is just Wrestlemania lite.

Well nirv02... then... what are we? Idiots?
Who is better player not important anymore?
All world is gone to hell... why not tennis?

nadline - Kelli simply read the draw wrong on those occasions...no stinky rat there. :)

On the topic of scheduling. This is a COMPLETELY different argument. Scheduling is at the discretion of the tournament and as such player bias is VERY much a part of it. I've seen mid-level players ask for a Tuesday start because they've just come from another tournament...and get DENIED. If the tournament people don't care about you as a player, they can make your life VERY difficult. But it isn't cheating, because they are perfectly within the rules to make up the schedule how they see fit.

Make no mistake -- if there is rain in the forecast for the evening, the player they schedule in that spot is no accident.

.."because they are perfectly within the rules"... but rules are there to be twisted !

... maybe I am naive... but... remember something like... "FAIR PLAY"
... every talk about GOAT... about records... is fake then. This hits at the very roots of tennis!

zare - I don't disagree with you. There is no doubt that the scheduling isn't done in the name of fair play. And yes, some players have had it easier than others because tournament directors like them.

Federer never had a tough 1R opponent at the US Open from 2004 on,true. Looks indeed a bit like "protection". And this is, as we all might know, nothing knew at some 250 events, where the stars get appearence fees and therefore get protected,
As for the number two seed,mhm, Murray got Gulbis in 2009 and Nadal (3rd seed) Gasquet...

Well, we await the results of the "investigation".................if it is proved that the US Open draw over the past 10 years has been manipulated i.e. fixed, then the next logical step should be take......................invalidate ALL USO grand slams "won" during that period!

Fruits of corrupt practices.....................no?

RITB - I would agree with that, but only if it's proven that the winners were complicit in the corruption. Remember the Russian pairs skaters that got to keep their gold medal, even though it was PROVEN that they won it through cheating?

First of all. Has anybody already explained to all the doom docters that there has never been any doubt on how the scheduling will be like. It is not a draw who plays primetime and who opens the day. Or who plays centre court etc. The tournement officials will consider wishes of players but only if they do not contradict the wishes of the tournement involved. And so it can actually look unfair if Fed who is still one of the tennislords gets prime time on centre court. However Nadal and Djoker will have there share of proime time I reckon. They cannot look away from the year he is having.

Furthermore I do not like all the inuendo about It is only Federer who gets the favor in draw and placement in the draw?
If it is rigged then it is rigged in orde to achieve the most money and not to achieve more title for fed . They just want there tourney to be part of history with a FEDAL final.

But I think that will change because all over the internet and in the tennisworld people want a final between Djokerino an Federexter Lets call that wan from now on
The DJOKERER. The final battle or the final episode. of course to be cioncluded because Fed is not going away and he is the prime contender for Novak where nadal clearly has lost faith and hope with 5 defeats in a row on the big stage.

hehehe... sienna you are forgetting something... three times in row... and what... after one win ExFed is favorite ???
Just reminder... he needed best match in 2 years to win over Nole, who was playing terrible that day...

...and if you read posts there were No1 and No2 ... not Fed and Rafa... globally speaking.
...
"The draws youre boy has been getting has seen him true his career slam. He should never have made the final last year US Open if his draw was not fixed."
...
So you first brought Rafa as person in this topic.

Zare on other treats on this site the same BS is spilled over Fed so I was wel aware of the foul play by the typical posters like Nadaline etc. I felt entitled to do the same to their boy.
As far as I know
Djoker has defeated Nadal 5 times in a row? Is there something that happened to made it 3?

In my opnion he always is the favorite. The match, every match he plays is on his racket. That will be the case untill retirement. He is the one, the anomaly, the special one. We saw some of it in the semi at Garros and he is saving and building it again to the US Open. Yesterday was the start to a new day a new resurrection of the man. He knows what to do to defeat Novak it wil take a great immense achievement. And I only hope it s in the fianl and not in the semies because after such a performance you let some energie go that you actually need in the final.
That is why it is best for tennis to have Fed peaking at Djoker in final.
You do understand what I mean? No need to have a champion who will pick up the peaces after the bomb has dropped. Be it Tsonga, Nadal or Murray they are in that orde the next in line on US Open 2011.

zare, this year Rafa has been playing terrible so it appears Nole is God-like. When Rafa gets over all his health problms he will bash Nole till he cries "uncle".

"Be it Tsonga, Nadal or Murray they are in that orde the next in line on US Open 2011"

Tsonga has a better chance than the defending Champ & Andy?
Interesting.
Well, we shall soon see, won't we Sienna....

zare, this year Rafa has been playing terrible so it appears Nole is God-like. When Rafa gets over all his health problms he will bash Nole till he cries "uncle".

rafaelite , 8/17/11 4:50 PM


Wow. Just wow. And here I was thinking you couldn't sink any lower.

Puss n Boots has been playing well this year or he wouldn't have won RG or be getting to all of these finals.
99% of Tennis Players in the history of the open Era would gladly retire on his 2011 results!
Although clearly he looks off-peak compared to the heights of last year (just a relatively bad year by his dizzying standards, or the beginnings of a decline?).
It's just that he's had to meet Novie-B at the finals so many times who is on FIRE right now & def deserves respect for his achievements this year.

Sienna @4.49, Nole is 24, Rog is 30...."computer says no."

I must inform all respectable Rafans here...
You have idiot in your company... Rafaelite... only coz I like Rafa I wont be able to stay calm with this blubbering gibberish day by day... trashing Nole... seeking fake excuses for Rafa's losts... I mean 5 excuses...
So don't jump on me when I start to answer. Better inform him that his cage is clean, so he can go back in!
What a elite imbecil !!!

Does this all mean that the USO draw will be in Nole's favor this year? :D

If so, all is forgiven, USTA.

stu, it WOULD have meant that...but I have a sneaking suspicion that Nole is going to magically get the No. 33 player in the first round this year. Know what I mean?

Sosueme there is a reason Fed lost twice to Tsonga/ He is without a doubt in a great shape at the moment. I can see him winning a slam...well gotta be lucky with draw and the run of the tournement. I can see him beat Fed when Fed just pulled the 5 setter against Novak the nigth before....

on topic.
To cure the fixing of the draws it is I think quit easy to solve.

You just place the seeds accoording to the ATP rankings and you let them play out from 128- 1 etc tot 64-65. Filling of course the WC from the bottom up and the qualifiers can have thesame systeme to reach a # according the seeding 1 - 128. Players with a protected ranking will fillthere protected rank. That is the same isn't it/+
So no more rigging of draws and it all plays according the atp ranking which is the way it should be.

sienna, there's an even easier way than that. All they need to do is draw the rest of the field the way they do the seeds. Take the computer out of it completely.

Fans of both Fed and Nadal have to be objective. Blaming all of Nadal's losses to Djokovic on heatlh issues is ridiculous. He just got beaten straight up, even on clay. Big tospin loopy shots to the backhand don't really bother Djokovic - he can't attack, but he can neutralize them. Nadal then gets nervous since he has no Plan B, and starts making errors. I'm sure Toni will come up with some kind of solution for NYC.

I'm a Fed fan but I can see why Tsonga can beat him, Fed is 30 now and his movement is maybe 5-10% slower. These big hitters like Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro when he's on top form - they just punish Fed eventually, for example by hitting deep into Fed's forehand corner. Since Federer plays up at the line and always closer to one corner (to avoid hitting backhands) he's vulnerable to the other side. So then you see him running to his forehand, hitting those desperation squash shots. And I'm sure real tennis coaches can see many more things than a normal guy like me.
Even at his age Federer still has at least a 50% chance to beat these big guys...

And yeah, Federer has trouble vs Nadal, no excuses or 'health reasons' can explain it. Nadal's game just matches up really well, Federer eventually gets impatient and goes for too much, and the final set ends up lopsided after several tight sets.

Yep, cherylmurray, I know exactly what you mean.

In the years between 2004 and 2007 though, and maybe also 2009, you would think they'd want to give Roddick a favorable draw, not Roger/Rafa. Strange.

in what I said above about Nadal and Djokovic - when I said 'Nadal starts making errors' I mean he loses confidence that his normal game will produce victory, so he starts going for too much. Obviously, Nadal is so good that he could probably play 100 shot rallies eveny point error-free if he wanted to, but he knows that if he plays that safe Djokovic will eventually blow it past him. Whereas with Fed I think Nadal knows that Federer's strategy of just trying to his laser forehand winners can't work over the course of a match, so he just stays patient.

stu -- ratings trump patriotism.

Mhh Cheryl? I dont get youre answer. The draw is fixed. They claim easy opponents for the elite? Why keep the same drawing which can be rigged?
With my plan everybody gets his/hers rigthfull place in a draw. According the ATP tankings.

This is my favorite quote ever from Cheryl :


What else has been done in the name of protecting the top names? And more importantly, to what lengths would they go to protect said players?

Ah yes you have finally come around to my way of thinking. Let's just think for a minute what ALL that could involve....Hmmmm

Agassi admitted they did it for him so......I think some of the top players have gotten away with a lot because too much money was at stake if a ban would have been imposed. Not calling any names...............

Maybe Vince McMahon secretly has a controlling influence over the ATP. Muhahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!

Zare ,get some perspective , it is just too players hitting the ball, and end up being millionaires while millions of fans gloating over not earning a cent and wasting time.If that is not idiotic enough what is. Find a life!

Hey numero, my thoughts exactly. We know that Fed was involved in a betting scandal in 2007. Why should we think only one bet was made on Federer?
The boss of ATP bet on Federer to win. So clearly he had an incentive to fix the draw in favor of Fed. I had long suspected this. Betting scandal, draw fixing, what else? The sudden invincibility after 2003? hmm. Food for much thought ( numero, I am sure since you are the in-house expert on ***, you could throw light on this).
If the boss of ATP is betting on a man to win, would he reveal failed tests?
Sadly since he owns ATP, no investigation was done by anyone despite it being a very serious matter. I read on the oregonian that tennis integrity unit claimed it was outside its time jurisdiction and ATP also under some pretext also refused to investigate.The whole thing stank to high heaven but it has been brushed under the carpet. numero, your man's titles should all be taken back. Shame on him.

Hey numero, my thoughts exactly. We know that Fed was involved in a betting scandal in 2007. Why should we think only one bet was made on Federer?
The boss of ATP bet on Federer to win. So clearly he had an incentive to fix the draw in favor of Fed. I had long suspected this. Betting scandal, draw fixing, what else? The sudden invincibility after 2003? hmm. Food for much thought ( numero, I am sure since you are the in-house expert on ***, you could throw light on this).
If the boss of ATP is betting on a man to win, would he reveal failed tests?
Sadly since he owns ATP, no investigation was done by anyone despite it being a very serious matter. I read on the oregonian that tennis integrity unit claimed it was outside its time jurisdiction and ATP also under some pretext also refused to investigate.The whole thing stank to high heaven but it has been brushed under the carpet. numero, your man's titles should all be taken back. Shame on him.

Hey Sienna, you should be grateful the draws were fixed otherwise your hero would not have won even a single title. And numero will tell you the secret of his sudden improvement in 2003. Well you must thank ATP for not revealing the failed tests.

Hey Sienna, you should be grateful the draws were fixed otherwise your hero would not have won even a single title. And numero will tell you the secret of his sudden improvement in 2003. Well you must thank ATP for not revealing the failed tests.

holdserve/rafaelite,

If somebody bet on Roger that's not Roger's fault so in no way should Roger have been punished.

Oh zare so kind of you to clean up the cage next to yours. I am sure you miss me but you know I don't stay in a cage. I stay in a house. I am touched by your solicitude.
Don't worry, I will visit you everyday at the zoo and bring you peanuts and bananas.
Lots of love.

numero, since boss of ATP fixed the draws and conceal failed tests, surely Fed should return the titles?

previous post to read:
numero, since boss of ATP bet on Federer, he clearly fixed the draws and concealed failed tests. Surely Fed should return the titles?

Sienna, you don't understand my response because apparently you don't understand how the draw actually works. Of the 128 man draw, 2 players (the top 2 seeds) are always placed in the same spot in the draw, No. 1 at the very top and No. 2 at the very bottom. Next, Nos. 3 and 4 are drawn with the first of the two players put in the second quarter and the other one put in the third.

Next 5th-8th are drawn and placed in the order they're drawn in into each of the 4 quarters. The same is repeated 4 at a time through the 32nd seed.

The rest of the players, including qualifiers and wildcards are placed by a computer. What I'm saying is if they were all drawn from a cup, it would eliminate questions.

rafaelite - you have the story wrong there. The head of Federer's MANAGEMENT company got in trouble betting on him to win the French Open. Roger LOST that match. There wasn't a whiff of impropriety on Roger's part. It wasn't like he was being accused of tanking the match or anything.

Hey Cheryl, I don't have the story wrong. It is right except that I said I read it on the Oregonian but actually it was in Greg Couch's column.
Forstmann, the head of IMG, bet on Federer to win i.e. he would have a vested interest in fixing the draw and, of course, concealing failed doping tests. The thing gets murky because IMG controls ATP. In effect therefore Forstmann controls ATP.
Federer is supposed to have given inside info to Forstmann. Considering Forstmann was getting Federer the best sponsorship deals, the whole thing stinks. It must be remembered that IMG also manages Nadal. Even Mirka might have considered Nadal the favorite for French Open. There is something definitely fishy in Forstmann betting on Federer. Did Federer tell him he would definitely win as Nadal was injured ( Federer gave Nadal a bagel at Hamburg). Did Forstmann do anything to skew the odds in favor of Federer?
The media except Greg Couch are not touching this case and the poor fellow (Agate of Agate Printing) who filed the case doesn't have money even to make proper court filings.
Neither ATP or ITF or tennis integrity unit have investigated the case.
So Federer is not exonerated except by people's blind faith in him.
There is very much suspicion of impropriety on Federer's part.

@nirv, i'd hate to think tennis was becoming staged like other sports, but i certainly has become very commercialized in the last decade, something I don't entirely like. As soon as that happens, the incentive for staging and taking fans for a ride becomes a lot greater. And you're right, it shouldn't really matter - we have our own lives to live.

As much as I would like life to be fair, it can't be so for everyone. Roger Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray. They were all unknown players at the bottom of the rankings at one time, just like everyone else. That means that they, too had to yield the best time spots, play times and center courts to those who were stars before their own rising. Despite this disadvantage, they overcame and made it to the top, and suddenly they were the ones the larger number of the public wanted to see. In my opinion they earned the favoritism tournaments show for the big money-making stars. It all amounts to pleasing the most people and remaining a profitable enterprise.
Now, manipulating the draw is another thing entirely. If certain elements of the draw are to remain random and numbers indicate they are not so at the US Open, I believe an investigation is justified.
But I would stop short of saying that all of a sudden all champions are cheaters and should be stripped of all their GS titles. That is pure nonsense. Remember, only the USO shows the anomaly. And even then, there is no evidence that neither the players themselves had anything to do with it, nor that their USO titles should be taken away. After all they had to still beat their share of the best players in the world to win the title, and there is no way to prove that manipulation was neither helpful not detrimental in the final outcome. The only thing that can be said for sure is that is wrong, and whoever is responsible for it should be punished, and measures should be taken to prevent it from happening again. That should be the end of that story.

Cheryl, I got not mutch time. But can Holdserve rafaelite be banned for life? She has now on multiple occasions accused Fed of doping?

much ! I know...

I see Fed has another night match, whereas Andy is scheduled to play in the noon- day sun! Just like last year! Grrrrr :(

I've always believed that the draws are rigged and not only at the USO. It's so obvious. Rafa always has tough draws and Murray and Federer always have easy draws for some reason.

Cheryl, I got not mutch time. But can Holdserve rafaelite be banned for life? She has now on multiple occasions accused Fed of doping?
Sienna , 8/18/11 10:00 AM

I will be surprised if this is not true. ;-)

Sometimes it is quit good to see Nadanino agreeing with me.
It is already acknowledged by the rafafans on this site that he only wins his slams dew the fact his greater physique then others. That is his solely legacy to the game and has given him 10 slams etc.
In order to create (by ATP) a new hero or break down the Fedex years tehy gave him (nadal) easy openers in the slams. So he could arrive at the bussiness end of tourneys fresher and he was able to take advantage of his greater physique. It is easy and simple the truth mostly is.
So this should not be covered but Nadal should be under investigation wether he new this or not. i bet Spain and team Nadal were well informed.

All this to breakthrough the deathhold federer had on the tour. they could not touch him unles Nadal arrived in the later stages of slams. We all know he is vulnerable the most in the early rounds. That is not because of his greater tennis skills, because his skills are mediocre to say it without prejudice.

@Sienna, 8/18/11 10:00 AM

It's really pointless for Cheryl to ban holdserve/rafaelite because, as we've seen, she will just come back with another screen name.

"Rafa always has tough draws and Murray and Federer always have easy draws for some reason...."

Oh Rubbish,
If Murray's draws are always so easy NADLINE, why does he always seemed to be joined at the hip with Puss n Boots in just about every draw?
And the Idea that anything is `rigged` for an up n coming non superstar player like M Bear is ludicrous to say the least.
Seeds 1 and 2 are naturally (ultimately) priviledged to have the best seats in the house anyway.
If there's any rigging to be done, that's where it shall occur.
Oh & Sienna my love, just because Tsonga has beaten Federer 2 times in a row doesn't make him the 3rd favorite for the USO for goodness sake!?!
A lot of people are beating the Fed nowadays i'm afraid.......

Sosueme accusing others of rubbish! Now THAT's amusing!! I suppose barking dogs can't help themselves.

Oh Jean,

I love it when you talk dirty to me!
Although you're probably grotesquely obese and bed ridden,
So I think I'll pass.....

rafaelite - you DID get the story wrong. Federer wasn't accused of giving Forstmann insider information...he was only accused of speaking with Forstmann before the match...not against the rules as far as I am concerned. That Forstmann bet on Federer to win...which he subsequently did NOT do settles the matter completely.

I doubt very highly if Fed knew that Forstmann was betting at all. This was a tempest in a teapot...and Federer was NEVER implicated. Agate Printing has tried (unsuccessfully) before to make money off of ridiculous lawsuits. Besides the obvious unethical practice of Forstmann cheating, there is no story.

This link has more data -
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6854000/how-espn-analyzed-us- open-tennis-tournament-draw

I think this is pretty conclusive, especially in Nadal's case, the average seed of his first round opponent (between the years 2004-2010) has been 103/128! (highest possible = 33). Roger's average 1st round opponent has been ranked 93. It would be really interesting to analyze Djokovic's opponents...

2004 1 Federer Costa 41
2 Roddick Jenkins 128
2005 1 Federer Mi nar 73
2 Nadal Reynolds 108
2006 1 Federer Wang 98
2 Nadal Philip poussis 100
2007 1 Federer Jenkins 125
2 Nadal Jones 106
2008 1 Na dal Phau 109
2 Federer Gonzalez 98
2009 1 Federer Britton 128
2 M urray Gulbis 88
2010 1 Nadal Gabashvili 94
2 Federer Dabul 91

Djokovic's opponents since 2007 (when he became #3) were ranked: 95, 78, 50 and 45 (avg 67). Note that these are _RANKS_ - out of 600 or so players. Out of the 128 players that actually play, if these were seeded, the numbers would be higher. This pseudo "seed" (i.e 1-128) was what ESPN used to determine the bias towards Roger and Rafa. Taking that into account, Nole's average would be much less than 67.

There also seems to be a more extreme ranking difference starting in 2006. Thanks for digging that up, stu.

Veerrry interesteeng Herr Stu,
Veery interesteeng indeeed....

cheryl, 1) Federer has indeed been accused of giving Forstmann insider information. That is the charge against him in the court case.
2) How do you know Fed did not know he was giving insider information? We cannot read his mind.
The fact that IMG was getting him the most lucrative sponsorship deals while neglecting Nadal, it is obvious that there was a special relationship. Sponsorship deals have no linear relationship with ranking. Sampras hardly got any deals whereas Agassi got huge deals. Before Forstmann took over IMG and ATP ( Forstmann controls many other sports too), Federer was unhappy with IMG and had left it.
3) Agate was discredited by billionnaire Forstmann and his lawyers backed by the power of money. That does not mean Agate lacks credibility but that he lacks money.
4) ATP exonerated Fed and Forstmann (not surprisingly) without any investigation being done.
5) Agate had been discredited earlier by Forstmann who had completely denied having bet on Federer. But he came back again with proof and then Forstmann had to admit he had bet on Federer. Unfortunately Agate has no money to fight the case and it appears that shortage of funds has made him miss deadlines for filings.

It would also be interesting to see whether the USO draws are consistently bottom-heavy or mid-heavy, in order to somehow influence the later rounds as well...

I think USTA officials watch and listen to ESPN, they read blogs......................so I expect they will be very, very careful from now on..............................

stu, we knew all along that Nadal was always given the most difficult draws. This was done no doubt at the behest of Forstmann and later the powerful sponsors to help Forstmann's insider info guy Federer.
There has been a concerted move to attack Nadal. At Wimbly last year, he was fined for on court coaching although the umpire did not know spanish and none of the people sitting near Toni thought he was coaching.
In fact it is ridiculous to think that a world no. 1 needs on court coaching to win. If it were so easy to win, everyone would get on court coaching. Elaborate codes could be worked out by the coach or even plants in the audience could manage the job by getting instructions from Toni on cell.
Federer's 16 gs titles and 23 semi streak are suspect.

There are surely other ways to attract more money/ratings to the tour (and the PGA shows the way I think, as others have suggested) without corruption.
If they're making the players pee in bottles at 5 in the morning while being observed, they really need to get a `grip` on their own practices as well.
Ahem....

rafaelite: "stu, we knew all along that Nadal was always given the most difficult draws"

even at USO 2010? (gabashvilli - istomin - simon - lopez - verdasco - youzhny - djoko)

Rafaelite,
If you read the data Stu has provided it appears that Roger and Rafa have benefitted the most in the early rounds over the years @ the USO, or is it me that's missing something here!?!

numero, has holdserve been banned? I think that is your contention, right? So if rafaelite too is banned, a third ID would spring up. That makes sense.
I was wondering all along why you were accusing me of being some holdserve . I mean what purpose was served by holdserve adopting a different screen name? Hyenas like you would attack any Rafa fan. So holdserve or rafaelite are equally vulnerable.
Please confirm that it is your contention that holdserve was banned. Sienna was claiming credit for driving away the poor holdserve.

Stu, where did you get the rankings quoted @stu , 8/18/11 3:17 PM from? At the USO in 2009, Devin Britton, Rogers Rnd 1 opponent was actually 1370 in the world, he's never been as high as 128; his highest ranking is his current ranking at 655. Rafa's first rnd opponent was Gasquet a former top 10 player, Djokovic played a seasoned player in Ljubicic and Murray played a tricky Gulbis.

I reckon it was fixed for Roger as it always is.

Re scheduling `controversies`.
It may be the case that Rofger Federer has actually become some kind of supernatural being (it would explain some of his results!), like a Vampire or Werewolf.
And therefore requires continual night time matches or some terrible transformation will take place.
And why isn't Puss N Boots getting night matches too as he is at least as much Box Office as Fed is?
Curious.

ha ha, I think Federer is indeed a vampire and his follower are werewolves.

ooh ooh dear stu you just poured kerosine on the fire...am just rushing to my nuclear bunker. Care to join me?

Stu asked you something... rafaelite? ... no answer???

"even at USO 2010? (gabashvilli - istomin - simon - lopez - verdasco - youzhny - djoko"
Or the list is too long for you to comprehend ?
Some water, maybe? According to your last posts your brain is seriously overheating!

Rafa hates night matches he likes to play early so he's probably asking for an early schedule. He's done his fair share of night matches.

nadline, the 3:17 "ranks" are from the article I've linked in the same post. These are not ATP rankings, but the tournament's player entry list ranked from 1-128 (based on their ATP rankings). So it is entirely possible that someone ranked 1370 is ranked 128 by their system, if he was the lowest ranked player in the men's draw.

That is exactly why, when I calculated Djokovic's average R1 opponent's rank in my next post (67), I stated that the equivalent number for the article would be lower, because I used ATP rankings to come up with 67.

I agree, 2009 was an anomaly, Rafa had a tough opponent, but he wasn't seeded 1 or 2.

deuce :) i'm not trying to light any fires, just horrified by the fact that there might actually be some evidence to prove something a lot of us have suspected all along...

dunno about your nuclear bunker. would we be able to watch the USO in there?

Don't you worry Stu dear boy,
They can't get you if you're armed with facts, as u r.
Although some of the Haus-Frauen on this blog clearly have problems with such phenomena...

Stu... nice numbers... it would be even more spectacular to find ATP rankings... not the tournament ones...
Numbers would be much more absurd.
I mean this post should be about tennis, not against Fed or Rafa personally ... we will see Nole now, will he get the No1 treatment, opponent about No1300 in first round.

stu, you can't get an idea of average ranks played by top players if you are using the player listing for the tournament.

Let's keep it civil, everyone.

stu, of course we can and it is equipped with very comfy sofas too, not that u need behind the sofa these days..... Just worried for your safety m'dear :)

nadline @5:56: not sure I understand what you mean. Those aren't my numbers, they are from the article I linked. It makes sense to me, may do to you too if you read it.

zare, your wish is my command ;)

Avg ATP ranking of R1 opponent from 2007 - 2010:
Federer 478 (his 2009 opponent was ranked >1000)
Nadal 100 (mainly because of gasquet in 2009, who was a tough R1 opponent)
Djokovic 67

stu, I think it would be more meaningful if the real ATP rankings are used.

nadline, thats what i have done in my 7:41 post above...

That makes more sense.

I was always under the impression that the No 1 seed played the worst ranked player in the draw and so on. I'm surprised that it's not the case. What's the point of the seeding then?

Just to keep big names in game as much as possible ...( you can read " big names" as "big money"
Thanks Stu :))

if nadal has been benefiting from the rigged draw for the past years, how come he never won a USO until last year??
its pretty baseless to question his USO performance based on his FIRST ROUND opponents as stu dug up from somewhere else.. it's not like rafa or any player is guaranteed to win the USO just because he played the 1,000,000th ranked player in the world.. otherwise, nadal would have won SIX USO by now, not ONE.

@sosueme

scheduling is pretty simiple logic.

nadal and federer are box office.

nadal gives them the box office during the day.
federer gives them the box office and PRIMETIME during the night.

nadal has to battle thru the heat or wind of the day in addition to his opponent;
federer...ummm..only his opponent because federer is a "class" act. we do not want him getting sweaty while playing.

@Cheryl
On the draw rigging.
I definitely do not understand you. I know what you say about drawing the rest of the field the same as the seedings, but then the problem still is there. You all claim that Nadal always gets Murray and he should atleast get 50/50 chance on Fed. So they do rig the seeding as claimed on this site?

And I ve been reading uop on everybodys comments. Nice. The badlosinf Nadaninos are havinga really bad hairday? Oh I'm sorry I did see the hairline was sligthly wider in the third set. Before 27 youre boy is out of it!

Furthermore I'd like the moderators tokeep track at the Nadaninos who are accussing Fed of doping. WHen someone caims Nadal is clearly connected with Dr Fuentas then they get banned. When someones ask why the Fuentas list after showing the cyclest who where on not the multiple spanish tennisplayers who alledgedly where on that list it is not being revealed! When I say that alle the great achievements of spanish players in several sports the last decade it's dumfoundling stats. Even when spain was not a country with a record of really great results but since the Fuentas list/rumour/ I surely get banned.
So I am not saying all of that but the posters here are allowed to keep making inuendo towards Fed. Why is that?

Raghav?? So it is not important for Rafa but when Fedis involved we should foul play!
Two face I call that.

Besides Ialwayexplained why it is for the runner Nadal more important to get easy openers then for a classical tennisplayer with great skill like Federer.
Nadal strugles early rounds and is definitely beatable by lesser players in the early rounds because his tennis skills are not up to par. So givinghim lesser opponents sets him u[p for later part of the slams to kick in with his running where the other players are a little more tired.

Sienna - the only part of the draw that is directly in question is the computer generated part of the draw. The Murray/Nadal reference was simply a nod to what people would say if it turned out that the US Open draw WAS manipulated.

I can't think of any way that the actual draw part of the draw could be manipulated.

sienna, what you dish out to others, you should also learn how to receive without complaining!

When you say Rafa is more vulnerable in the earlier rounds, I would say not when on clay. I would say that Fed is also vulnerable in the early rounds, at least on clay. Don't go talk about Rafa only winning because he can do lots of running. Just look at Fed, once he's a step or two slower than before, he too becomes more vulnerable and more beatable. Every player needs good footwork in addition to good tennis skills in order to win consistently. Look at Delpo, why is he always losing to the top four guys, even with a serve and an awesome forehand like his? It's because when it comes to footwork, he's always outdone by the top four guys.

Fed needs his footwork to help him win his matches, next time while watching Fed's matches, do concentrate on his footwork and see how he moves to get to the balls. All the top four guys have excellent footwork, minus the footwork from Fed, he'll fall out of the top four and will be beaten everytime he plays against Rafa, Nole and Murray. Delpo, Sod and Berdych will also beat him more often than now!

@sienna

you are always off-tangent so i am not going to indugle in that. look for the people you love bashing with your far-fetched logic.

numero peaksat all posts he sendsto this site.
rafaelite again dope for Fed ?

Rafaelite now it is beyond reasonable doubt youre holdie. Great to have you back.
After dismissing you at youre previous nickname I look forward to outwit and outsmart you iwith this nickname. But that is actuallyeasy because I ve always the truth of TMF behind me and you have a false prophet.

Cheryl... pls... do something...
Rafaelite is starting to bother even Rafans!

I'm starting to think numero may be right, rafaelite does look like the two-percenter. But since nadline, luckystar and the likes strongly stood by two-percent, you might be wrong there, zare :D

banned.

Cheryl is on EST. Requests that come in at 4 am my time will be handled in the order they are received. :D

Have I missed something? Why has rafaelite been banned?

You missed quite a lot then, nadline :P

I deleted the posts. Rafaelite was tying to get banned, I daresay, so I simply complied.

@Sienna , 8/18/11 11:25 PM - Nadal strugles early rounds and is definitely beatable by lesser players in the early rounds because his tennis skills are not up to par. So givinghim lesser opponents sets him up for later part of the slams to kick in with his running where the other players are a little more tired.

Sienna , 8/18/11 11:25 PM


Sienna, do you know how many times Roger has lost in the 1st round - 5 times- and that's just GS (3 at the FO and 2 at Wimbledon). Just remember that. I won't even bother to mention any other early rounds because that's enough for you to be going on with.

nadaline yur really losing it!

Fed has 23 semi in a row without missing a single slam and 29 quarters in a row. He lost 1th rounders in the early part of his career pre TMF.

And so what? why would you think this is any material or ammo for a claim about this issue. It is about Nadal getting free willys during early part of slams.
He is the one who needs the free willys given by the old boy from ATP who needed a new king on the throne. They helped him reach that goal and only because Fed is TMF he is still there and ofcourse fought back in 2009 reclaiming #1 like the master he is.

Sienna.... you really know how to make ppl laugh :)))
Your man was so privileged and pampered last few years... that I am wandering why didn't they just sent him trophies at home address by DHL!

Sienna, I try to avoid you on the whole, a) because I think you love a confrontation and b) because I cannot follow your line of , sometimes you just say things that are so wide off the mark that I am compelled to say something.

Roger lost in the 1st round at Wimbledon to Ancic when he was favourite for the title. Have you heard that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? You say it was early in his career, but I don't think 2003 is that early considering he was actually 22 when he lost in the 1st rnd at the FO.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree before you revert to type and come out with your personal attacks.

Nadaline
I have no time to be more specific. if you dont get it you just dont get it.

Ha rafaelite banned for life? True? then again she lost the plot completely. Deluded was her word of the year and so she is. 2 Federettes - 0 holdie/rafaelite/Veejay

rafaelite was nothing more than a troublemaker and deserved bo be banned. And yes,she is holdie/veejay .

@Zare
Its all in good fun. But you see I had to do batle with holdie/rafaelite and nadaline so you should understandthat in order to make a statement you'll have to be very invetive in order to make them understand youre point of view. They arent the brightest around and the plate full with spanish tapas is just 10 centimetre away from their faces.
I can only ques how mad holdie/rafaelite is because she will read thes postings but can do nothing with her anger?! Shelives somewhere onthe west coast USA. Well keep track of the news and the loony attacks on that site of the states it could be her out of controle.

On a serious note this site is killing me. First Fed was in decline and swiftly losing ground then Fed had 16 slams dew to a weak era and now he got easy draws? Itis just so nice and the beautifull part of it in a few years Fed will still be around to be ridiculed and made fun from jealous posters who want there demigod to take his place in history.
But Zare You know that if Djoker wins every match it will not be better then Roger 2006? He lost before a slamfinal! You do know that don't you. And he wille have to have another 3 of these years to equal his royal King Fed. It fills me with so much happy thoughts to know that it will be an ordeal for him to do. Think about it and you should be full of respect for Federer. It doesnot matter if he had easy pickings or weakera!! He did that he won and played all those finals and is still around. MINDBLOWING

You still making me laugh :)))
I love Nole... but I am not possessed like you...
I liked Fed... but last 3 years he really disappointed me with his egocentrism and arrogance...
So if Nole win everything till the end of year... it's still nothing for mighty Fed in 2006??? ...coz he had lost in one GS SF???... how many masters Fed took that year??
How many matches he had lost...
OK... I will google a little...
But I have to say to you... you are completely same as rafaelite or holdserve... same mental constitution... you are big part of everything negative on this site...
I will give you some data about RF 2006 season and that will be last time that I answer to your post.

OK...
............................................................... ..............................
In 2006, Federer won three Grand Slam singles titles and reached the final of the other, with the only loss coming against Nadal in the French Open 1?6, 6?1, 6?4, 7?6. This was the two men's first meeting in a Grand Slam final.[47] Federer defeated Nadal in the Wimbledon Championships final 6?0, 7?6, 6?7, 6?3, which was the start of their storied rivalry. In the Australian Open, Federer defeated Marcos Baghdatis 5?7, 7?5, 6?0, 6?2[47] and at the US Open, Federer defeated Roddick (2003 champion) 6?2, 4?6, 7?5, 6?1.[47] In addition, Federer made it to six ATP Masters Series 1000 finals, winning four on hard surfaces and losing two on clay to Nadal. Federer won one ATP 500 series event in Tokyo,
.............................................................. ..........................
Bagdy...Kolya and Rafa...who probably did not even shave in those days...
Yes... those Rafans are 100% right... IT WAS REALY PATHETICALLY WEAK ERA!

Iam sure youl do fine keep in mind that he was 2 sets of from calender slam. masters were played 6 rounds and finals best of 5.....

WTC undefeated.

Come on Zare you can do better then weak era bull... Because if start to entangle me you will surely loos temper and get banned for life,

sienna I am here for years already... you came yesterday like small genital infection... you will go quickly back...
You are not the first and not the last possessed person here...
BTW... there he goes with double break dawn....

oh Zare I am way beyond taking a loss for the Fed so serious. Berdych onfire so be it. When Fed retires we simply have to move on. If you like tennis you can only enjoy it when you have a favorite. So Robin Haase got his first ATP tour win I was thrilled. Those are the litle things in tennis that get m going.

Btw I am marvelled by youre boys year so far. Laureus trophee for him I reckon. But keep it in perspective darling.

What will bee... will bee! We will see...
But this year is still not over...
He will be N01 at the end and this is important... and ofc he can't win everything ...
Just a mater of time... but later the better!

zare
, 8/19/11 10:10 PM

you are hilarious...:))) by the way I see you are kicking some asses here...well done Champ...

Zare dont over do it. I know feel strong backingthe winner at this point, but itwill backlass to youif you do not respect tennis, its history and the current opponents.
Donot turn into a Rafanino because they have become Nadaninos. Try to stay deacent, well behaved and alway keep dignity like us fedfans have done over the many many years our boy is at the top.

If you keep pushing the tennis gods they will surely let Roger win on USOPEN against Novak and that is just a terrible footnote on his best year ever. Going down to Fed on 2 slams. Winning 7 or 8 masters is nice for the tennisfans but 3 slams is history.

Sienna...
Pls don't be hypocrite... you don't have the right to speak about decency ...
Lucky you... that I am not Spaniard... coz I would find this veeeeery insulting:
"
.. you'll have to be very invetive in order to make them understand youre point of view. They arent the brightest around and the plate full with spanish tapas is just 10 centimetre away from their faces.
"
I can understand your physical and mental suffering while you watch magnificent meltdown of your fake idol, but you don't have to go down with it. I am worried about you. You are starting to cry for God of tennis help :)))...
It is my fault, I admit... that I can't stand delusional fans. I had a lot of fights with some Rafans.... and I even LIKE Rafa. Exfed is completely another story. Guy is simply overblown, arrogant great player. Beautiful player... but whole story about his sportsmanship is brilliant product of SWISS PR and Mirka's genial management!
"
Winning 7 or 8 masters is nice for the tennisfans...
"
ROFL... one understatement of year... just trying to underestimate Nole and Rafa in same time. C'mon... you can do it better!
...and finally... look at your delusional idol's interview after yesterday match!
Since the last season of " Fools and Horses" I wasn't laughing like that...
You can count yourself if you don't believe...
IN FIRST 59 SECOND... HE SAID 23 TIMES "I"... I lost the count after... you can't be serious to backup such guy...
He really needs the Gods Of Tennis divine intervention...
You are simply trying to change the subject of this topic... and it is Exfed's privileged status all over it!!
Have a good day Fedalino :)))

alway keep dignity like us fedfans have done over the many many years our boy is at the top (Sienna).

What a load of massive BS! I've not heard a bigger lie on this site for a while. Fed is nothing but a sore losing, arrogant whiner like the majority of this fans (such as numero, nir, you, etc). Classless to the core. I suppose you call flinging water bottles all over the court, refusing to shake hands with the chair umpire and victor, taking swipes at Murray, Berdych, Rafa, Nole, to all be acts of dignity and decency. Crawl back to your whole little one...and stop making yourself look like the ass that you are!

Jean,
You are just the proof I needed to show people the product of the Nadal fanbase. Just reaching short at history and therefor kicking and screaming at everybody whit a different view on things. YOU ARE PATHETIC.

Sienna,
...and you are a PATHETIC BLIND FED WORSHIPPER!

au contraire dear jean. If you actually took the time to read my posts you can only conclude that besides a great deal of sarcasm and self mockery they are well balanced and based solely on logic and believe in good old Fed. Not at all out of hate and anger where your personale strengths are.
Have a good one jean.

this site would be excellent were it not for the petty squabbling. it's a game. it's not important in the greater scheme of things

back on topic... i'm surprised this story has not made a greater splash in the uk. i know tennis is largely ignored here unless it's wimbledon or murray has made a grand slam final, but i would have thought it was still pretty big news. i'm not entirely sure i understand the whole thing though. the draw-ers (people making the draw) want to protect one (or both) of the top 2 seeds, so instead of allowing for a random draw they give #1 #128 in the first round, and #2 #33, or vice versa? or they give them #128 and #127 each? but some years they've had players seeded in the 90's, so why does that imply it's fixed?

it could still be random though. i read somewhere that apple had to make the random function on the ipod less random, because to be truly random it meant that the same song could be played 5 times in a row, or 5 songs could be on a loop. this wasn't deemed random enough, so to ensure more songs were played it was made less random in order to appear more random. it could be that this applies here (sort of) and it actually IS random, but doesn't fit in with our perceptions of what "random" is

Yes... without mentioning Fed...Rafa...Nole...Rodick... and the champions before them... point is No1 and No2 were specially protected. That throws big shadow over tennis competitions and I really have feeling that someone is trying to make a big coverup.
Must say that I don't blame the players here... don't think that they have some connections with it. But still... strange... nobody is talking about it.

This is a statistical anomaly not proof of guilt. It's possible to throw heads 100 times in a row, too, just not often.

I could see some motivation 10 years ago when Sampras/Agassi were aging but still huge draws, but at the height of FEDAL? How often do those two lose in the first, second or third round of a slam? Never! The top seeds are already protected by the seeding system and the huge slam draw means that most first round matches serve as warm ups. The USTA would have to be seriously stupid to do something with so little benefit and such a huge downside when detected...umm, well....USTA stupid...h'mmm.

This rumour has been around for a long time. Lets hope its an investigation, not a cover up and put it to bed once and for all. We all know its down to money and in order to maintain the public interest its imperative that the top seeds remain in the competition. Sib69 @2.24pm, you have made a good point re perceptions of random.

"Sienna, you don't understand my response because apparently you don't understand how the draw actually works."

this made my day!

i was actually waiting for sienna to accuse cherylmurray as the disguised rafaelite/holdserve/veejay!

anyway, i read the article but the main contention was that the top 2 had easier first round matches. would we still watch the tournament if the top seeds were eliminated earlier on while the "unknowns" would be playing in the qf's onwards? like it or not, we do not want to watch a mis-matched finals. as much as possible, we want to watch top 1 and top 2 seeds. whether the USTA is guilty, we are part of that "corrupt" system. and it's funny why espn has exposed this weeks before the USO. to draw more fans towards the event? oh well, it could increase its viewership.

...or maybe to have excuse for bringing the stronger players against Nole from early start???
POINT... is : "They are fixing the draw or not?"
Opponent for N01 and N02 in first round should be random player between 33. and 128. place. Is it random... less random does not exist !

If you read the original study by Outside the Lines you'll see that the French Women's draw is actually skewed to be much harder for the top 2 than the average random draw, by very nearly as much as the USO is easier for both top men and women. Do you also believe that the French hate the top women's seeds and want to see them lose? There's as much evidence for that as for the USO draw being fixed.

I wouldn't call it cheating per se. I just think the tournament directors want the best possible semis and finals for the "gate". I smelled a rat last year in the US Open when No 3 in the world, Djokovic, "drew" fellow countryman (Troicki) in the first round. At the time, Troicki was about #34 or so, plenty high enough that he shouldn't go out in first round or that No 3 shouldn't have to face him. Add in there were only three Serbs in the draw and two of them met in the first round! What are the odds of that happening.

I have thought for a long time the draw is "tweaked" to give the best possible chance of a Federer-Nadal final no matter where those two fall in the rankings.

Growltiger, how nice to see you back and have the pleasure of reading your wonderful name :)

Ramara - that's a good point. But the article addresses it. The anomaly is that it is both the men's AND the women's draws, which is so unlikely as to be nigh impossible odds-wise. That's why it's a story at all.

I think they should do a study on this. They should do a truly random draw, then show it to a number of people to interpret and see if they saw connections, coincidences, etc. I get the feeling that a lot of this seems statistically rare when filtered through human preconceptions of what is more or less likely.

Somebody is doing magnificent cover up in tennis. Once the door are open I have feeling that we will witness lot of scandals.
I mean look at other sports.... fixing of matches in football, doping bicyclist, athletic,
Tennis need some changes... I mean Bolt lost the medal coz he started earlier, he didn't do with intension, it was error but medal is gone.
There are so many fishy things in tennis...

New development:

On several occasions, we've discussed the unlikely frequency of Roger Federer facing Novak Djokovic in the semifinals of Grand Slam events. Under traditional bracket seeding, a semifinal pits 1 vs. 4 and 2 vs. 3. Tennis, though, places the top seed in the top half of draw, the second seed in the bottom half and then randomly assigns No. 3 and No. 4 to the two remaining open quadrants. So it would seem odd that Federer and Djokovic have played so often -- drawn in the same half 15 of 16 Slams since the 2008 Australian Open (with 2010 Roland Garros the lone exception) according to the ATP's Greg Sharko -- even when one had been ranked No. 1 and the other No. 3.

Some of us (self included) simply chalk this up to randomness. Flip a coin a dozen times and you could have 12 heads. But, as a rule, we don't like randomness. And as a rule, we like conspiracy theories. Inevitably this has triggered raised eyebrows. Katarina Pijetlovic, a European academic, goes further still, wondering if this isn't a Nike plot to maximize the chances of a Federer-Nadal final. Go to the 12:30 mark and judge whether she proves her case.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_wertheim/10/17/best- of-three/index.html#ixzz1bJ9ssMkR

here is link to presentation from Koln http://livestre.am/14b57, go to 12:30 mark

atg, I've long thought that, not a Nike fix, but tournament officials wanting a Fedal final.
Backfiring now of course, lol.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger... With latest Novak/Murray version, Fedal might be happening again... in semis... But I am more afraid about such things existing... player entourage will now have statistician on top of physio, psychic, nutritionist, trainers, PR etc...

deuce -
yes, lol.
That said, probably not just tourny officials, but the sports media, non-nole and non-muzz fans, and therefore the sponsors have craved fedal finals for years, probably reinforced by the wimbie 2008 'final-of-finals' which they would love to recapture. It's understandably difficult for them to resist the fantasy that that particular script could be replayed.
But it's probably STILL the final most of them want as they dream of an 'Indian Summer' for the great one. But if the persist in their dream-that-won't-go-away Muzz moving to #3 now gives them the chance to shift the seeding 'randomly' back to 1-4 and 2-3 (watch that space!) but we won't cry too much when they find nole to be as impenetrable as rafa ever was;)
That said, I wouldn't be averse to muzz meeting nole in the SFs at least as much as he meets rafa - 6 and half a dozen, if you ask me.
But the bottom line for fed now is that, failing that Indian Summer or a sudden collapse of rafa/nole, both rafa and nole are now dominating him.
The beauty of that wimbie final - when two titans at the top of their games and careers clashed - was its uniqueness ... and 'uniqueness', by definition, can't be repeated. So fed's followers - whether orgnaisers, journalists or simply fans - should just savour the memories, let tennis move on ... and keep up, fgs.

atg -
I'm not so sure about the Novak/Murray version and wouldn't drop rafa out of the equation just yet. Fed may be last generation, but rafa is only one year older than nole/muzz. rafa has been written off once before, only to come back and have his best year yet. IMO, Rafa coming back and having another great year is no less likely than nole experiencing a bit of a lull - not that I'm predicting anything.

Or alex.... Andy having a bit of a surge..not that I'm predicting anything...;) btw if u google "Tignor Give Murray his due for now" u'll find a spiffing article with an excellent penultimate paragraph. Enjoy :)

thanks deuce. high praise indeed. you should have a listen to tennis.com's recent podcast where there's some similarly rare positivity from tignor (I think) on muzz's slam prospects.

How can anyone write off Rafa? Now who was the one who had beaten Murray in three of the four recently concluded slams? Just because of one defeat at the Tokyo final and now things would change and now Rafa is now longer in the equation?

One thing, in fact two things are NOT for sure, ie will Nole continue to dominate in 2012 like he does in 2011; and will Murray finally bring his acts together to win a slam next year? One thing is for sure though, ie never to write Rafa off, as he has already proven time and again that he'll be back, from any lull or whatever: in 2006 he came back after his serious foot injury; in 2008 he came back from knee tendinitis suffered during late 2007; same with early 2009 and 2010. He's only 25, he still has a few good years ahead of him, as long as he manages his schedule well and keeps his foot and knee injuries at bay.

One thing is for sure, having Nadal lost 6 consecutive times to Djokovic this year it is up to him to raise his game. Or do you want him to wait until djokovic's level drops?

In my opinion djokovic now has the upperhand against nadal. So every time they meet I would have to give the advantage to djokovic.


In 2012 I think djokovic will win 2 GS, Nadal 1 and Federer 1. Yes Murray will win 0, imo.

Big question is which Novak will return to courts. Murray is known to has strong end of season. It would be great to have them all in top form in London. Anyway, this year GS had more interesting semis than finals, so it is time to stop thinking about fixing draws... it is counter productive for tennis (but not for Nike).

I am glad that Novak is not in addias, or this could be battle of brands (addidas vs nike). Big corporations and their interest are influencing world, I don't think ITF is immune. But I know that players for sure don't have anything to do with it.

ok, here's my predo for the 2012 slam count:

(shut your eyes, deuce)

rafa 2, nole 1, muzz 1, fed 0

Rafa will raise his game that's for sure. Anyone could see that his game this year was falling apart, different parts falling off at different time though, if not he won't be able to stay at no.2. In IW, his serves and his backhand fell apart; in Miami his fitness failed at crucial moment; the clay and grass season, his nerve failed him; USO his serves and at Shanghai his ROS!! Just watch how he played at the USO 2010, where almost all parts of his game were intact and see how good he was then, add in his improved net game of IW/Miami this year, and he'll be ready for whatever challenge next year. What he has to do is to make sure he can find and play that game consistently. With that and with some wins over any of the top four under his belt, his confidence in his game and in himself will be back.

Do tell us which slam you predict Federer shall win next year Bleck?
I get the argument about Murray & Federer's chances, ie Federer was SO close to another US open, & he had those match points ...but for etc & Murray can't cut it under pressure, not good enough & so on.
But the reality of the situation is that the tight way Federer lost only emphasises the problem he'll have going on to get that 17th. It doesnt make it more likely. The Federer of 2006 never would have let Djokovic back in on those Match points in both 2010 & 2009. Never ever. It's one thing simply losing in a semi, but to lose the way he did not once but twice is the sign of a player losing the ability to win, a clear deterioration of his famed killer instinct, & it will get worse over time, not better. I don't have a problem with Roger getting another slam but the Idea that he's ever so close to doing it, that you can say 'oh he's gonna win one next year' is rather optimistic to say the least.
In fact it would require quite a bit of luck to transpire!
I'm not completely writing Roger off, but I'm not sure he himself cares that much about getting one more slam either. At least not enough, or he probably would have pulled one off already.

alex *peeping out from under my eyelashes*....only one?...;)

@deuce.

Or Rafa with 2?
I'm reasonably sure he'll get one, but I dunno, I would have to see how well he fares at the AO before making that prediction. How well he bounces back.
Clearly he needs a break but he's got a lot of ground to recover & I do not agree with Lucky that he just needs to get wins over any of the top 4 for confidence..he obviously needs to beat Novak & convincingly (remember he was losing to Novak while beating Murray Fed etc).
If Murray eeks the one, dependent on the circumstances it might open the flood gates for him, but it's a big might.

sosueme, I said Rafa has to find his game back AND THEN beat any of the top four, to gain confidence(in his game and in himself). Right now Rafa hadnt gotten his game back on track, and though he still was able to beat Fed and Murray, he also lost matches he shouldn't have lost to lower ranked players, not due to him being tired or injured, but due to him not playing well enough to counter these opponents who played the match of their lives to beat him.

I'm sure when Rafa's game is back on track, he'll be a good match for Nole, having fair share of wins and losses between themselves. We shall see how things go come 2012. It's anybody's guess right now.

That's why next year is going to be better that this one.
And that's the only prediction I feel comfortable with making for now.

Rafa's forehand and backhand seemed lacking in power and precision these days. He seemed to be hitting with the power from his arms more than using the core strength that generate from the lower half of his body. It may be that his foot was giving him problems again. His backhand deteriorated the most and he really had to rely so much on his footwork to run around his backhand to hit his forehand. Last year at the USO, his backhand was so good that he even hit a few very good backhand DTL shots during the final; this year that shot had almost gone missing. His ROS really sucks these days, zero break point opportunity during that Mayer match, simply pathetic! He really has his work cut out for him now, if he wants to get to the top again and wins some more slams.

Sosueme, see my post at 1.37 and give Tignor a read. V. complimentary about our Andy :)

The Backhand has been targeted all year by Novak as the gift that keeps on giving, now others are benefitting too. And the forehand is failing to compensate. The serve retains its excellent placement but it's now just a little bit too underpowered. Which is why he's often more successful on his 2nd serve % than his first.
His game just lacks overall ...oomph!
There's less power & precision & the better players who were gaining ground anyway all of a sudden find themselves right in contention or ahead.
I think a long break is important, but I would be very surprised if he came back again & did a '10. He'll be 26 next year, & more importantly has been on the road for 11 years, next year shall I be more of a 3 horse race I think.
But then I would say that wouldn't I?
@Deuce, yeah I read it, & agreed with it too.
And people that really understand Tennis, former players coaches etc often think the same way about Andy that we do. But we are all aware of his shortcomings as well. He makes us all painfully aware of them. Murrays 25 next year, it's time for him to grow up & sort it out once & for all.

"Do tell us which slam you predict Federer shall win next year Bleck?"
Sosueme, I think roger's shot at the US Open it's not that bad. He's been too 6 consecutive finals and MP in the last 2 years semis. Roger is a tough cookie at the US Open more than any other GS.

"I'm not completely writing Roger off, but I'm not sure he himself cares that much about getting one more slam either. At least not enough, or he probably would have pulled one off already."

Easier said than done. Do you think nadal doesn't care about beating Djokovic? Following your logic if he cared enough he would probably have beaten djokovic at least once this year.

Not tough enough as the way he lost those 2 matches indicates. He would have met Nadal in the final anyway.
The logic shouldn't be followed to the Nadal/Novak situation. It's different.
My point was that Federer has lost the killer Instinct to close off matches that should have been his. Couldn't say the same for Nadal at all this year he's simply been outplayed by Novak.

Sosueme, As I said in another post we'll have to wait and see. I assume that in your opinion Federer is not going to win a GS. And Nadal all 4, 3, 2, 1?
I guess it will depend if he plays djokovic or not at the FO and Wimbledon.
AO very hard for him to win. He got to 1 final and won that, he should consider himself very lucky. USO 2 finals, 1 title, don't see him winning it again.

Goodness, getting the guy had reached three slam finals and winning one of those and here bleck said that he had no chance to win. Look at Nole, how many AO finals he made? Two right? And he won two, ie 100%. Rafa being to one AO final and he won, ie also at 100%, so who says he can't reach another AO final and wins again?? Nole waited for three years before winning his second AO title, so why Rafa can't do the same??

At the USO, Rafa reached two consecutive finals and winning one of them, and he had no chance of winning it in future? What logic is that? Nole reached three USO final before winning his first there, so whose success rate is higher?

Don't always assume that Nole will always be there in the slam finals, there are always matches to be played and Rafa may not have to meet Nole in the finals. BTW, we also can't assume that Rafa would never beat Nole again, even though some Fed fans are hoping for that. No chance, Rafa is too good not to find a solution for the Nole problem. Also Nole can't sustain this form going forward, his body can't take that kind of beating as his latest back injury has shown. As i've mentioned earlier, Rafa has the game to deal with Nole or Murray or Delpo, he may not play his 2010 game at 100% again, but he can improvise a bit, by coming more to the net to finish the points quicker instead of relying too much on baseline rallies.

I would rather bet on the guy who reached three slam finals and winning one, rather than on the one who only reached QF and SF on his own favorite surfaces, regardless of what he had achieved in the past.

lucky,

You tell 'em! Well said! Fed fans want to believe that Rafa will never beat Nole again. It gives them hope. If their guy can't do it, then they sure don't want Rafa getting closer to Fed's 16 slams, now do they. Much better to tell themselves that Rafa won't beat Nole again. However, as you said it's not a given that Nole will be there all the time.

I have been reading comments to the effect that Nole is going to beat Rafa at RG in 2012. Talk about getting ahead of yourselves! Predictions are fun, but meaningless when all is said and done. Anyone can say what they want, but we cannot know how it will all play out next year. Also, Rafa doesn't need a long break. He needs to get through these last two tournaments and then get ready for the DC final. After that, he can work with Uncle Toni on his game. One thing I have learned about Rafa is never, ever to write him off.

"Also Nole can't sustain this form going forward, his body can't take that kind of beating as his latest back injury has shown..."

Neither can Rafa, as 2010 has shown.
Unless you're on clay these grinding baseline rallies wear down the body, it's a pact with the Devil.
You get the rewards for a time & your star burns brightly...
But Lucifer always comes for his dues eventually.
Physics, Biology, Physiology etc.
2 straight years of it @ optimal seems impossible without some kind of dip.
May I add that Rafa has behaved similarly to Novak the entire year, more so in fact (he was the master after all) only with less success. What makes you think he shall be any less immune from the vagaries of this approach for yet another year when that has basically been the problem the entire 12 months past?
You may want him to adopt a more all court game, (& he should) but clearly he has yet to make that jump himself.
Apart from a bit of one final this year he never has!
And it's not a given that success is assured, or he probably would have changed already.
He certainly had the game to deal with an immature Murray & Djokovic it doesn't mean he shall going on.
However I'm certainly not saying Rafa cant beat Novak, but he better come up with something other than hoping his form drops.
And next year I'm sure he will.

sosueme, after Rafa had his PRP treatment on his knees, he won three slams last year without having any injury problem, unlike Nole this year, where he had his back issue. This year Rafa was unfortunate to have an illness and followed with thigh muscle injury(due mainly to cold muscle not properly warmed up, due more to his illness related fitness issue). He wasn't affected by injury at the FO, and though his foot gave him a bit of problem, he still managed to reach finals at Wimbledon and USO.

It's strange that just a year ago and in fact during his Abu Dhabi exho in Jan this year, he was still playing so well, until illness strike. Had he not being affected by illness, he might be playing better than now and nobody would question his fitness going forward. He's only 25, playing more matches than any others this year and was having the second best results, and yet people are questioning his abilities going forward.

As I've mentioned, Rafa has always come back from injuries and even done better than before his injuries, in other words, he has already proven his abilities time and again, from 2006-2011. He's not 30yo but 25, I don't see why he would suddenly decline. For Nole this is only his first year that he has such stellar results, the jury is not out yet as to whether he can sustain it come next year, in other words, he has not proven himself yet. About Murray, he haven't even started and he also had his fair share of injuries; Delpo, need I say anymore about Delpo?
With Fed aging, and these young guns each having their own problems, why only single out Rafa, who is the most experienced among all of them, achieved the most, and he's such a warrior and always a problem solver out there? How many finals did Rafa make this year? Ten I believe, only Nole has reached more finals than Rafa, and people are questioning Rafa going forward?

PS Since 2005, Rafa has made at least eight finals each year, with the exception of 2006. He has reached at least two slam finals, with the exception of 2009, since 2006, winning at least a slam each year, from 2005-2011. Remember he's 25,not 30, there's no reason he can't continue with his winning ways.

To me Rafa with his 2010 game plus his improved net game should be enough to deal with Nole. What he needs is to get his confidence back and has the right mindset when dealing with Nole. Remember what Fed, Rafa and Murray said about Nole and his game? They said Nole is playing the same way as before, just a little bit better here and there; the difference is in his confidence level and his fitness level these days. Nole also has his own narrow escapes this year against a few players, so I don't see how Rafa would continue losing to Nole without getting some wins over Nole, going forward.

Well, I suppose most people are questioning his abilities because he was expected to be the Number 1 dominant player this year & was completely usurped by Novak, it's quite a reasonable position to take I would say. Still he is better than everyone else after Novak for sure. I hope you're not wishing for Novak's back to give out (ha-ha JOKING!)?  He can be a tad dramatic but he's probably going to be fine for 2012.  As for Nadal coming back with '10 etc, well it's easier said than done, I'm sure it gets harder every year also. He will probably revise his tactics next year, shorten his game, vary it a bit more as you have suggested. He has to & this will improve his confidence levels going into matches (as he'll have a 'plan') & then we shall see......

sosueme, I won't wish injury upon anyone. I want to see Rafa beat a healthy Nole fair and square. He came close at Miami, just imagine had he beaten Nole then, we won't be talking about the Nole problem for Rafa now. It is clearly a mental block more than anything else for Rafa against Nole. Just see how Rafa tensed up at the Wimbledon final first set this year. They were on serve till 5-4 and Rafa played a lousy game and lost the set,due mainly to his own nerve. Too much was made of the second set 6-1 result; if I were Nole, having won the first set against Rafa, I would also be like Nole, just went all out to win the second set. We saw after that second set, Nole could not sustain that level and he went 1-6 against Rafa, clearly that second set was not Nole's normal level on grass hence he couldn't sustain it. The fourth set turned out to be the same as the first set when Rafa was even more nervous as he was on the verge of losing the final.

Going forward, I'm confident that Rafa will beat Nole, as long as he doesn't let his nerve gets in his way. He just has to play like he did at Miami this year, with more aggressive plays and more inside the court, like he did against Dolgo, Berdych, Fed and Nole during that tournament, play tha way on both grass and hard courts. Best thing to do on clay, play like he
did during his recent DC matches against France, and he'll be fine against anyone, Nole included.

Please also factor in the fact that Rafa didn't start this season well because of illness and injury, if not I'm sure he'll do better then what he's doing now. Just watch how he played against Berdych and Fed in the Abu Dhabi exho, before his illness. It's an exho no doubt but he was giving Berdych a tennis lesson that Berdych looked so pissed as if he's thinking ' what the heck, Rafa, this is just an exho, why are you so serious and wanting to give me a beat down?'. Half way through that exho match, Rafa seemed suddenly realized that it was just an exho and so slowed down a bit and not embarrassed Berdych any further. Compare that to his IW tournament where his serves fell apart, and you could see how his game was affected since coming back from injury!

Luckystar, I love your posts. It is so boring now without Rafa playing and it is nice to read from you that Rafa will beat Djoko.
I agree that before his illness, Rafa looked invincible. He looked devastating at Abu Dhabi and I was so sure he would achieve the Rafa slam.
I am looking forward to Rafa beating Djokovic at WTF.

So true bleck.
Nadal would be lucky to win Garros next year/ The decline willbe lesser noticable on clay. I dont see him winning any major trophee on a court other then clay. And when he does not get some pride or lust for tennis back soon.
Some of his fans here havent even noticed that Rafa did play tennis the last weeks. Wel he actually he didnot play tennis his demeanor and lacklustre attitude was terrible.

Not as terrible as Mr Fed who got fined at USO 2009 because of what he said to the umpire. Also have you seen how bad his attitude was at Madrid this year, arguing with the umpire about a line call, where in fact he was wrong? I bet sienna kept quiet about all these, or simply closed one eye and pretend that such things never happened!

Fed is truly in irreversible decline, with only one 250 title this year, and yet his three main fans here are still talking about him playing for records, what 5th AO, 6th WTF.. really living in denial!! First he can't beat Rafa, then Murray, now he even can't beat Nole. This year even on his favorite surfaces he got beaten by Tsonga, Berdych, who's next to beat him at Basel, Paris and London? Maybe we could make a guess here?

Yeah 2012 is truly exciting, for the top three I mean!!

Ohhh Lucky...don't forget.... he had two MP against Novak.... he lost it but for player who has one ONE small.... nice.... little tournament... it's not small achivement.
...
Holdserve... ofc that Rafa will win over Nole.... No ones serious can think that Novak's victories are granted from now on....

I rememberred Rafa going all out to the umpire last years WTF in O2. He said I not play no? I no play anymore no?? It went on for like 15minutes totally upsetting his opponent. the worst I haveever seen a #1 react to umpires decission.

But atleast he cared about winning or losing at that point intime.

You know what, holdserve, I was scanning through my DVR these few days and rewatch some of Rafa's 2010 matches at Rome, RG and his 2011 Abu Dhabi exho. Rafa was simply playing so well at Rome last year. His CC backhand was so flat and precise back then and he even hit some devastating DTL backhands. One thing I noticed, he was more aggressive back then, moving inside the court so often and attacked at the net. I still remember that he was giving out breadsticks and bagels at MC last year that came Rome all the players were so worried about meeting him at Rome. He did hand out some breadsticks at Rome, to Stan and to Kohl and Rafa was especially impressive against Hanescu. Gulbis was the only one to get a set off him at Rome, playing so many drop shots but Rafa was experienced enough to win in the end.

This year at the clay season, Rafa was simply not the same, he was missing on his CC backhand, hardly hit his DTL backhand not to mention his devastating DTL forehand! He was also standing so far behind the baseline, and believe it or not, at the Rome final against Nole this year, he had zero net approach, 0/0, can you imagine? (I rewatch that final from my DVR last night and couldn't believe the stats!). Rafa was also alot quicker on clay last year, I blame his illness and injury this year that derailed his 2011, that's for sure! If not we would see a closer fight between Rafa and Nole!

You see sienna, everyone have their moments like that, so why pick on Rafa? At least Rafa was unlike that foul mouthed Fed, who got fined for speaking some foul language at the umpire!

Sienna, It is truly great that a player who is vastly past his peak is still one of the best players of the tour. Roger the only one who beat Djokovic in a full match (and had Mp in another match). This year albeit very bad title wise gives me a good feeling going into 2012. If Roger plays his best he can beat anyone anywhere. Of course now jesus fed only comes every now and then.
And Roger is playing for a lot of records next year which makes it even more exciting.
Last year Roger was the best indoor player and he is career wise the best active player indoors so he has a very good chance of winning Basel and the WTF (record).

Just imagine if Federer won only 3 titles at the age of 25. Now that would be worrying to his fans. At 30 all I can ask is that Roger gives his best and I know that his best is still enough to win the big titles (GS and WTF).

"Wel he actually he didnot play tennis his demeanor and lacklustre attitude was terrible." Specially in the third set against Murray. It seemed nadal had given up on the match. nadal focused too much on developing a game to beat the best ever now he is in trouble.

Not to worry if that 25 yo started winning slam at age 19! I seem to remember one so called goat player only started winning slam at age 21, almost 22 and has now stopped winning any slam, since winning his last at age 28. Almost two years have past now and he had only managed one slam final during that period. Nothing to be proud of and no record breaking or whatever in sight, I'm afraid! The guy should count himself lucky that he was able to win another two slams while his nemesis was away injured two/three years ago, and his fanatics still want to gloat till no end about his records and still wish for some more! Human greed knows no bound!

zare @ 10/23/2011 2.42am

Spot on, we saw one from the fanatics camp mentioning about that MP, ha ha! So predictable these campers! Nothing much for them to gloat about these days, one tiny little title for the so called 'goat' and they still have the cheek to laugh at someone who won a slam! Yeh, and these campers still wish to claim credit for their 'goat' for beating the hottest player this year, forgetting that their 'goat' got beaten as usual by his nemesis in the only slam final the said 'goat' made this year! Too happy that he beat the hottest player but forgetting that he failed in his mission of winning a slam, therefore he shall remain slamless this year! Not to mention the hottest player got his revenge soon at the USO!

What was Novak secret for beating Rafa and Fed in a row on USO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWoNk_fH6fs

Impressive demonstration of talent!
Pierre was clearly beside himself with Joy at his masters success,
That's why Dusan kicked him in the head at the end!!
Okay, maybe it was an accident.......

Do you think Pierre and Maggie would get on well together?

Word is Maggie's highly strung,
So she'd be perfect for posting on TT!
Anyway the magic may already be happening Ed,
I hear they 'tweet' to each other from their own official twitter accounts.
Little lovebird/doggies!
Didn't think they'd be each others type however, I mean it might not go the distance.
Maggie's last boyfriend was a Rottweiler, & Pierre takes longer 
to get ready for walkies than she does!

As a breed the feisty Border Terrier matches up well with Andy but I have a problem getting my head around the idea of Nole with a white Toy Poodle. lol.

What breed do you breed do you see as a good match up for him? German Pinscher perhaps?

Sampras won 14 slams in 13 years while Roger won 15 slams in 7 years. It just shows how great Roger is.
Unfortunately for nadal his talent and technique are well below those of Roger, murray and djokovic. So in addition to his mental strenght nadal has to outrun and outlast his opponents. That's his way of playing. Of course that leads to injury.
nadal's playstyle=injury. To win the Us Open last year he miraculously upped his serve speed but he couldn't keep it up. Even a freak of nature can't hope to play such a taxing style without consequences.

And I'm sure nadal will be winning slams at the age of 29 forward. NOT, just joking obviously!!!

bleck, have you wondered why Fed won slams for seven years and then wins no more, while Sampras can win slams for twelve years? That's because of strong competition from Rafa's batch of youngsters! Rafa was the first among these youngsters to beat Fed in slams, next we have Nole followed by Delpo. How is Fed going to win some more slams? He's already lucky that 1) both Safin and Nalby didn't make full use of their talent to challenge him earlier on; 2) his nemesis was away injured so that he took advantage of the situation, well before the other young challengers were ready to challenge him. Fed is one damn lucky fella I must say! Well luck has to run out some day and now he's being exposed by his younger counterparts. Just wait and see whether another youngster, Murray, can bring his acts together in the slams and beat Fed, after having proven time and again at the Masters that he can beat Fed convincingly.

And yes, a supposedly less talented Rafa can beat Fed six times in slam finals, ever since Rafa's pre prime and Fed's own prime period, what does it speak for Fed's supposed talent??

I didn't say sampras won slams in all the years of the 13 year span he took to win 14. There were some years where he didn't win a slam. And Roger won 15 in 7 years but he added a 16th in 2010 (8th year).

As for the strong/weak competition argument which has no validity what-so-ever I'm going to quote a poster from another site. I think this sums up what some nadal fans twisted logic makes them believe.

"If Federer's wins are close, it means the opposition has poor mental strength. Also Federer has poor mental, b/c he should beat the mugs by a much wider margin.
If Federer wins by a huge margin, it means his competition have no talent and are mentally weak..
If Federer loses by a close margin, it means that Federer has poor mental strength and his ability is less than that of his opponent (who should win more often).
If Federer loses by a large margin it means that Federer is both mentally weak and its proof positive that he has no ability!

Therefore, under no circumstance can we ever conclude that Federer has any tennis ability or mental strength whatsoever!"

This is what delusional fans like you luckystar believe. Had Roger been a worse player and lost some of the slam semis or finals against roddick then the era would have been stronger because roddick would've had 3,4,5 slams.....

bleck, what did I say in my previous post? Did I ever mention Roddick? I believe I mentioned Safin and Nalby, please check! The two most talented of the lot to challenge Fed but didn't turn up, so Fed was lucky! Next Rafa and his group of youngsters, only Rafa mature quicker than the rest of his group to challenge Fed and look what he has done to Fed and his legacy. Fed is lucky Nole and Delpo were born six to seven years later than Fed himself, if not a peak form Fed vs a peak Nole or Delpo, and I'm not sure Fed can still dominate like he did during 2004-2006. Again Fed is lucky that they mature a bit later unlike Rafa.

Rafa is not as lucky as Fed, because Nole, Delpo and Murray certainly do not want to be like Safin and Nalby, but they want to challenge both Fed and Rafa, so Rafa will have a hard time going forward, as they're all in his peer group. However, Rafa will still win some slams and some will be won by the other three, and that to me is more interesting for tennis fans, as no one player is guaranteed to sweep all the slams because there are a few very good players out there capable of winning slams.

Bleck: Calling Luckstar a delusional fan is a preposterous accusation. Only the other day she was being called out by several Fed supporters for her honest opinions on the current state of Nadal's game. Her input on this site is invaluable and many of us appreciate her in-depth knowledge and analystical abilities: which is more than can be said for some of your colleagues efforts.

And while we are on the subject, would you ask your chum Sienna to resist from her smear campaigns and idle threats to rid TT of people she has a grudge against.

Luckystar. Rafa has been a great player especially onclay do not eve think he has had a TMF year. Djokovic has had a TMF year but Rafa never was inthe same leaugue as TMF so he could not keep his winloss ratio at hight TMF was able to stay and now Novak.

"However, Rafa will still win some slams and some will be won by the other three..."
That's a bit of futurology. Djokovic so far this year is close to federer's 2006 season and surpassed Federer's 2005 and nadal's 2010. It would be best not to make claims about the future as we never know. What if Djokovic has 2/3 more years of dominance? Murray has 0 slams. Del potro after winning the us open has done nothing even though his recuperation of the injury has been going on for quite some time.

"Fed is lucky Nole and Delpo were born six to seven years later than Fed himself..."

imagine nadal take on a prime davydenko, nalbandian, safin, blake.... All these players give him lots of trouble. This era discussion just doesn't make sense.

What if Borg, mcenroe, Laver, Sampras, agassi, lendl all played in the same era?!

This type of discussion leads nowhere.
Federer was ahead of his time from 2004-2007. Of course you say he won so much and so easily because his competition was weak. I say he won because he was immensely better than his competition.

Just to clarify:
"What if Borg, mcenroe, Laver, Sampras, agassi, lendl all played in the same era as Roger, djokovic and nadal (murray doesn't even deserve to be mentioned alongside this greats)."

And who says one must have a TMF year? Now what Nole has done this year is better than Fed and his TMF years, because Nole has beaten both multiple slams winners Fed and Rafa in all but one slam this season. Again count Fed lucky that two of the slams are on hard courts, if we have only one slam each on clay, grass and hard courts, how many would Fed get? Or if two slams are on clay, how many would Fed get?

Anyway, Rafa's overall win/loss ratio is the best among the active players, not forgetting most of the tournaments are played on hard courts these days, Rafa's least favorite surface, so how good Rafa is overall!

Excuse me bleck, what are you talking about? Didn't Rafa during his pre prime took on the prime Davy, Hewitt, Fed, etc? Didn't Rafa beat all of them on clay, and most of them on grass and only lost on hard courts to them ( which was his weakest surface and took him longer to develop)?

Do Borg, McEnroe, Connors belong to the same era as Fed, while Nole, Delpo, Murray and Rafa all belong to about the same era as Fed? While we may never be able to compare say Laver or Borg to Fed, we can certainly compare Rafa, Nole and even Delpo's performances to Fed's.

Of course the future is unknown, so your guess (that Nole may continue to dominate) is as good as mine. We shall see, I'm not into predicting, that's just a simple assumption earlier on, I may be right or I may be wrong.

And again people pressume that Nadal and Djokovic would have reach the height Fed has gotten to without Fed. That is dumb ignorant and without respect to TMF.

Rafa did enough just to beat Fed. Djokovic just beats Nadal and he has difficulty with Fed. I say they are now 52-48.
But that dioesnot matter my point is that only Fed has been able to ift tennis 2 levels up with his own mind and body. He set the standard where Nadal aimed for do not think Nadal being first would have set the samestandard Fed would have set, The same goes for Djokovic. It is far easier to be the hunter then the price. Fed has been the price all his life and he set the standards of today elite.
I believe this to be his greatness which clearly sets him apart from Nadal and Djoker.

They would have been glad just to become slam champion. Fed needed to make tennis better. He set the bar with only his own limits. (none) Challenged by Rafa he upped again his ambition etc. But let there be no mistake that it could not have worked the other way around for Rafa and Djokovic.

Sienna
You're correct concerning Roger raising the bar, he clearly did & showed the way for others to aspire to try & compete with his level, bringing eventually up the overall quality of tennis. There's few who wouldn't agree with you.
But in his own way so has Nadal, as he also raised the bar in terms of mental focus (a prized talent in any sphere of activity) & physical endurance  & that became the new bar, and so on.
Both have moulded Today's game, one after the other, and only now are a few players stepping up to the plate.
So credit where credits due I say.

Exactly sosueme!

Actually Rafa has helped to push Fed to new heights as well. Just imagine without Rafa, Fed would just have to play the same way throughout his career to deal with his peers, without having anyone to challenge him in the slams. It's the arrival of Rafa that threatened Fed's dominance over the field that had pushed Fed to keep improving.

Had Rafa come before Fed, he would have also dominated the field, at least on clay and grass, with a fair share of the hard court titles. And if Fed were to arrive at the scene, he would have also forced Rafa to raise his level and made him improved all the time to fend off the challenge. In other words, they need each other to push themselves to new heights in their career.

Now with the new improved Nole, everyone else is forced to raise the level yet again. We see now Murray has also improved his level of play recently, having been inspired by the new improved Nole. All these will make the game more exciting to watch with the level of play not remaining stagnant.

It could not have happened other way around like luckystar is implying. He said he was lucky that he was alone.
Nonsens he was the enigma, he was the odd one out. Ofcourse it takes several year to catch the price.
And you talk about mental powers/ To reach 30 quarter/ 23 semis /10 and 8 finals staright and without missing a tourney is showing of the greatest mental strength in tennis. Him at 30 still in the mix is greatest mental strenght.

Bottomline iit is wrong to think if Rafa would have been older then that he would have 10 slams. He would not have had the mental and ability to raise to the height he needed to get to overthrow Fed fromt atp#1. He would have done excatly enough to win a slam and not try to raise the bar even higher.

Rafas mental indomitability up until this year at least was second to NONE.
I wasn't suggesting however that Roger was also not impressive in this respect, but even Roger would admit that Rafa had the edge on that one, & he was the one who was at its receiving end on more than one occasion.
A case in point the AO final when Roger simply melted in the 5th set.
As for who would have done what when if earlier or later.
It's not worth getting into an argument about as it never happened, so we can never truly know. 
 

I agree that one cannot know what might have happened. We can speculate, but that's all it is in the end.

What can never be disputed is how Rafa was the only one able to challenge Fed when he was at his peak and dominating. Even as a teenager right from the beginning, Rafa had no fear of Fed. His mental toughness and perseverance paid off in his early matches with Fed. Most of Fed's opponents back then were defeated the moment they walked on court. The match was over before it had even begun. With Rafa it was different. He truly believe that he could beat Fed. And so he did.

My favorite slam final was that 2009 AO. Rafa had every reason to lose and should have. The fact that he found a way to win and broke Fed mentally in that fifth set because he was still coming after him and wouldn't let up, was what made it so special.

I hope you don't think it was so 'special' because he made poor Roger cry?
I'm sure some here would think so.
For the record Muzzy was also beating Roger from the get go, & he really was an amoeba then.
But the key difference is, sadly, never in a slam.
At least, not yet.

Honestly, that really had nothing to do with it. Give me more credit than that. In fact, I really would like to forget that part. It was the match that made it special. Rafa coming out after one day's rest and playing so well even though he had to be bone tired after that slugfest with Verdasco.

I don't indulge in pettiness like that.

I was only kidding NNY.
Don't take my comment to heart.
As for the match, it was def one of Rafa's finest & truly one of the best displays of mental toughness in sport....ever really.

Sosueme,

Considering what has been going on here of late, I think my sense of humor is in need of recharging.

Thanks for getting it! :)

From all the players who are now active Roger probably has the biggest heart of them all. Only matched by Hewitt who would have been oneof the greatest around when it was not for roger. Als Safin and Roddick would have been 5/6 maybe 7 slamwonders if not for Roger. Think about that for a change. Think about that without Rafa Roger would have had ? 21-22 slams. Rafa would have had a hard time reaching 10 without Roger. He probably would have had 4 or 5 slams without Roger. That is reallysomethong the nadaninos would not have taking into account when contemplating about figures, history /...real honest love for tennis!

Roger is the anamoly, the enigma of our time. He truly is the one who made it all happen.

Oh the worship starts all over again, from thread to thread!!

maybe this was my only time I didnot stauy on topic. But the arguments were al so strong i just could not help myself.

Sorry to see the reaction of Luckystar. Who clearly is at a loss now that we are supposed to act civil./

I'm very civil all along. Look who's the one off topic now. Go off topic and then apologize and not allowed others to stay off topic! Self appointed moderator? I see!

I'm very civil all along. Look who's the one off topic now. Go off topic and then apologize and not allowed others to stay off topic! Self appointed moderator? I see!
luckystar
, 10/26/11 1:48 PM

Look whos talking?

Yeah look who's talking!