Poor Caroline, everyone takes a dig at her every chance they get. I reckon she plays too much outside the grand slams, she needs to 'save' her tennis for when it matters most. But she'll get there.
Agree about the talent at the top. Not that the rest of the field are a bunch of talentless shmucks, but the chances of someone outside the top 4 winning a slam are very slim for sure. Not like the women's field (Petra who?)
Thank you for writing about Nole, Cheryl, this website tends to be very Rafa-centric at times (or I should say Fedal-centric?) so this is definitely refreshing :)

FFS, someone feed the guy some cookies before I lose my mind *bigcry*

What did ATP do to make the general fan embrace Nadal? This is news to me.

No, by "they" i meant that the fans embraced fedal. Moreover it seems that they aren't going to let go anytime soon. The ATP is going to have work harder with Nole I think.

Djokovic doesn't need the ATP to promote him he does a great job all by himself.

Can't think of how the ATP promoted Rafa, he's just loved by millions for just being Rafa.

Nadline I did not say that the ATP promoted Roger and raga.. Although they do. I said the ATP needs to promote nole so that the crowds embrace him they way they did Roger and rafa. Of course I think I just explained that, so maybe I'm wasting my... Er.. Typing.

Cheryl, I sent my post before I saw your post @ 8.09 pm.

The ATP ignored the rock-star type Rafa and focused on the unexpressive Fed whose on-court personality has been described to be as interesting as a doughnut's.
The IMG boss Forstmann, promoting Federer, is also boss of ATP and he chose to focus on promoting Federer not only directly through IMG by getting him sponsorships but indirectly by giving him the best schedules and courts.
Although, IMG is supposed to promote Rafa also, they ignored his more interesting rock star like appeal. But despite this, he won millions of fans because nobody could ignore him when he was playing Federer.
Djoko's promotion is the responsibility of his marketing agent and indirectly ATP's as well because they can sell tickets and get lucrative sponsorships, sell broadcasting rights at huge prices etc based on the star appeal of the players.

It is now the job of the ATP to get the general tennis fan to embrace him the way they did Roger and Rafa.

What did ATP do to make the general fan embrace Nadal? This is news to me.
holdserve, 7/11/11 7:54 PM

Basic reading comprehension is missing here lol.

I had become disillusioned with the lack lustre tennis atmosphere of the 90s rolling into the noughties and even though I had been an avid fan for years I stopped watching it avidly for a while until one day this guy called Rafael Nadal, came on with long hair, capri pants and a sleeveless shirt playing swashbuckling tennis like I'd never seen before and I have virtually watched it wall to wall since then. This wasn't due to any promotion by the ATP. I so regret missing his years before 2005. In England they only announce results of tennis matches involving a British player so I'd never even heard the name Rafael Nadal but he was an instant hit with me.

What I'm trying to say is that Djokovic will cultivate his own appeal the ATP doesn't have to do anything.

nadline - maybe it will be thus for Nole. Maybe there are a legion of fans out there sick of the Federer-Nadal stranglehold ready to be a fan of someone else. But for the time being, it seems that this is not the case...and I wondered if it would continue to be the case for as long as they decide to play.

This holdserve woman is really obnoxious!!!
Even when the article is about djokovic she manages to post stuff attacking federer and, of course, complementing or making excuses for nadal.
She is toxic for any type of tennis website and forum.

If you want my advice cheryl do something about it, it's getting more and more unbearable.

unfortunately, dnalves -- if I banned everyone for posting about Roger or Rafa when the article wasn't about them, we'd have no posters left. It's the nature of the sport right now.

I think Fed and Rafa have their appeal to different individuals and we all like or love them for various reasons. I can understand why many love Fed and I can surely understand why many love Rafa, I being one of them. Whatever bashings done to them won't diminish the love that both get from their fans and supporters.

I believe too that Nole has his own appeal and with his season like this, I believe he'll convert some non believers into supporting him in the future. Nole is also a likeable guy and whether he's the one taking over from Rafa, we have to wait and see how things go in the coming years, as there're Murray and Delpo too, who also have their own appeal and supports and playing good tennis.

How will this coming hard court season unfold depends also on how the top four plus Delpo perform. As a Rafa fan, I've mentioned before that I've written off this coming hard court season for him, ie I don't expect much from him as I feel he needs time to improve his game and getting the mental aspects of his game right. I think Delpo can do some damage this hard court season, and if Murray can continue with his good run since the clay season, he may be the one giving Nole a good run for his money, although I feel he needs to avoid Fedal in the SF or Final, maybe Delpo can help him out by taking out Fedal.

Amazing- it took nearly 3 1/2 years to craft this piece & finally it's here. :D

Anytime I think about the label "general tennis fan," only one person comes to mind (post Sampras/Agassi era). Federer became, and still is, a one-man marketing machine, with name recognition that transcends tennis. Call him a doughnut all you want- the guy can sell anything and everything under the sun. Watches, cars, planes, clothes, wine, equipment, chocolate, razor blades, etc.

Nadal has carved out a niche for himself as well, although to a lesser degree than his predecessor.

The ATP is a business. In the new #1, they have a product to promote and sell. Djokovic's people are responsible for his off-court activities. The ATP is directly responsible to guide him in bringing the next wave of domination to the masses. It's not rocket science. It's $$$$$.

My only question is this- aside from the win-loss record, the titles, the ranking and everything else that comes with the changing of the guard, what will motivate the public to support Djokovic en masse?

Well I have to say Fed had the advantage over Rafa and Nole as he's dominant during 2004-2007, when Rafa and Nole were just starting out in their careers. There's no one to challenge Fed, not Roddick and not Safin, hence he won all those lucrative endorsement contracts. I also heard that Safin, being the poster boy that he was then, wasn't very interested in endorsement deals.

The fact that Rafa could craft out a niche where endorsement deals were concerned during the times when Fed was dominant and is still relatively dominant now, speaks volume as to Rafa's appeal. Rafa has been winning more endorsement deals now, from bank, insurance company, car, all those tennis related endoresments like Nike, babolats, to luxurious watch, jeans, home brand biscuits to beer, and I'm sure there's more coming his way.

Nole should have his own appeal and I think more endorsements should go his way too. I think the ATP has to look for somebody to replace Fed in the rivalry with Rafa, and Nole fits the bill, as he's about the same age as Rafa and has been no.3 for a long time. Nole has proven his worth and now it's his time to shine. If Murray and Delpo can live up to expectations, then I think these four young guys can lift the ATP tours to another level, after the Fedal era is done with.

I don't think the ATP is done with Federer yet so I don't think they are going to suddenly turn their attention to Nole. They never really did anythig for Rafa but the force of his popularity forced them to take notice of him. I remember Cheryl doing a blog to the effect that Rafa was still playing 2nd fiddle to Roger despite being No 1.

I don't agree with you 'luckystar 7/12/11 5:57 AM' in writting Rafa off for this hard court season. In fact, I think he will win one or two tourneys and why not the USO.
You of all people should know to never write Rafa off...

Shireling, I'm just managing my own expectations. After seeing Rafa coming out strong at the beginning of the Wimbledon final and ending up collapsing in the first set when serving to stay in the set, and the same thing happening in the fourth set, I can't help but feel that Rafa will have a few more of such moments if he makes it to the finals and meets Nole there. I actually was hoping that Rafa would not meet Nole in the Wimbledon final, as I know Rafa wasn't ready to meet Nole in another final then, but somehow some of you here were so confident that Rafa would beat Nole there. I for one was also confident after seeing Nole not being too impressive against Tsonga and Tomic, but I was proven wrong. I don't think Rafa can overcome the inner demon that he has now concerning Nole, and so am not expecting anything from Rafa. I hope Rafa proves mr wrong this time, and positively.

Novak will have hard time reaching popularity Federer or Nadal had. It would be much easier if there is no established great player who has picked all the fame. In this case there are two of them, almost complementary sharing tennis fan base. Fed and Rafa target groups are pretty opposite, that is why there is so much flaming and clashes on forum. One is presenting classy, elegant, stylish, gracious tennis and the other one complementary raw, powerful, muscular, agile tennis. Both of them have some trademark, recognizable shots.

So where Novak fits? In the middle, but which such strong polarity that could be better described as no where. He had something from both, not pushing anything in particular, such a great all around player, but with no trademark weapon. But...

He brings something else to the tennis which is much harder for branding and marketing. Unlike two most popular players, he is promoting tennis with the face. Complementary to his retro ST outfit, he brings something that we missed, personality and emotions on court. And I think both, retro outfit and personality, does give incredibly appealing overall image for me. Kinda blast from the past, melting passion and emotions from previous tennis eras with fierce power, ruthless tempo and variety of current era.

It's trickiest of all images to maintain as you can't play with emotions, you can't doze them, you are becoming so transparent, exposed and vulnerable. Federer and Rafa knows that, and for them it was easier to promote and brand their image with poker face, focusing on appearance and attributes they are pushing in front plan and surgically remove any trace of emotions. Your elegant look, gracious movement, muscles, agility, and appropriate outfit are always there for you. You bring it on court and you are done. Emotions, charisma and personality are much harder to maintain in order to give you broad popularity and likeness. You can't control it and think about it during such concentration demanding game like tennis is.

But that is not the even hardest part. Money turns the world around. Can you remember any no.1 player who was not from the top economies countries? Ivan Lendl comes to my mind, but his prime was out-branded by Jim Connors, McEnroe, Borg which are to some extent close to his achievements... but he was out-branded with Willander, Becker, Edberg who couldn't step close to his success. The later had much broader fan base and were much more popular and endorsed by sponsors.

Roger hit sweet spot with his birth in Switzerland, covering Francophone and German/Austria region with his tongue language. And Switzerland is one of leading economies and origin of most prestigious brands which craves for sponsorship.

Rafa brought refreshment from South Europe, covering all Hispanophone countries extending his presence to three Americas. It's even bigger market share than Fed.

Novak, coming from Serbia who suffered wars recently, still struggling to keep his borders. Serbia brings mostly negative vibes as country who suffered massive blows trough decades of media campaigns, getting terrible image which will take century to recover. And what Novak is doing??? putting his Serbia cap, shirt, flag at each opportunity...

So who is most interesting player for sponsorship endorsement, which is actually what creates strong media presence, buzz and fame. Two GOATS who does have strongly built, steady image covering huge market, or guy who is fighting windmills with fragile image which can turn around?

I am from Serbia, partly Serbian and of course Novak fan... But I have to admire to all fans worldwide who don't relate to Serbia and choose Novak! And we, Novak fans, are hoping that his story "Once upon a time in far, faraway country, against all odds....", will not end in Sci-Fi department and instead we will see it in History department. It was miracle to have streak, get in front two GOATs to no.1.... we'll see where miracle ends.

Ajde No1e !!!

luckystar,
If Nole was able to do it, why not Rafa?
Rafa has proven in the past that he can get better at everything if he puts his mind to it.
It's true that Nole today is a better tennis player, even without counting the "head factor" but as strange as this may sound, Rafa feeds off these situations, he's done it in the past against Fed.
I'm confident that he will find a way to beat Nole again and sooner than you think.
I have trust in U. Tony's ability to, yet again, raise the bar concerning Rafa's game.
I think the key could be to keep enjoying the game even if he never beats Nole again (which he will) - to laugh a bit at himself and to enjoy the battle... look, even during the Wimby final he was able to break back on the 4th set! He's almost there... :)

atg,
Your enthusiasm is entoxicating :) I'm happy for Nole and all his fans whether they're Serbian or ot.
I don't really agree with you when you say Nole has a fragile image, what's fragile about Nole?
Also, I don't think Rafa comes across as without emotions during his matches, not at all. In fact, it is his fighting spirit and charisma that have brought so many fans to his side... can't say the same about Fed though athough his tennis speaks for itself.
It's great to have Nole in the mix though , if Delpo and Murray (like many of us have said here) jump on board too then men's tennis will get even better :)
(but I want Rafa to still win a few more titles.. please..... :))

atg, brilliant, interesting, thoughtful post:) Murray is another who shows all his emotions on court, though he is working on this. Lol to be in the shadow of Rafa and Rog for so many years is enough to make Nole and Andy very emotional! All credit to your man for his magnificent break through :)

...sorry about my lost post... should pay more attention to my typing... I am half irish so EN should come more naturally to me than that.... sorry, sorry

errrr. meant to say 'last' post...
errr.. I will ask U. Tony to fix my typing too.. maybe I should just try with my left hand.

I don't think Rafa is emotionless on the tennis court. In fact he's a action packed hero. I still remember how I love it that as a 18-19 years old, how he celebrated each point won by leaping into the air and fist pumping. I really enjoys such enthusiam displayed by a young fella back then. None of the other young players showed such enthusiam, not even Nole. We his fans love him because of his passion, his never say die attitude and his competitive spirit. While Fed represents calm and serenity, Rafa represents explosiveness and energy. It's the contrast that makes Fedal so interesting and so irresistible, at least to their fans and most tennis fans.

I for one don't bother which country a player comes from, be it anywhere in Europe, America or Asia. What I want is for good tennis and good behavior to be displayed by the players. I support Rafa because of all the good qualities he displays, even though he's not perfect and sometimes I wish for him to change some of his bad habits.

Shireling - I do have faith in Rafa and Uncle Toni in solving the Nole puzzle and whatever puzzles that Rafa is going to face in future, however I don't think they can solve the Nole puzzle so soon this year, well maybe by end of the year during the WTF?

... if Rafa were to drop to Nr. 3 he could play Nole before a final. I think this would help Rafa :)

@Shireling: "I don't really agree with you when you say Nole has a fragile image, what's fragile about Nole?"...

I didn't put it right... my English limits me to express myself correctly.... I didn't meant that whole Novak image is fragile. I meant on part of his image in regards to personality and emotions on court. It is pleasing for crowds to see how he reacts, communicate with viewers, gesticulate, but all that needs to be done cautiously, because it can be wrongly interpreted by crowd easily. As he is usually recognized as joker and guys who can entertain masses, it can shift in different direction (US Open - Rodick). It is not that Djokovic is fragile, showing emotions, personality is sensitive work. It is easier to have outfit, muscles, style, movement that represents your image, as it is kind of passive work.

When I think on Rafa, first thing that associate me is still sleeveless shirts, warriors/rebellion attitude. About Federer it is just picture of his ballerina one hand-backhand jump without looking at ball and tilted head. When I think on Novak, it is his roar, burst of mixed emotions.

I didn't want to offend Rafa or Roger with poker face tag... they do show emotions, but controlled. You would change your perception of Novak if I translate just one of they Serbian tantrums when he is mad on himself. Some swearing could never be translated properly, as Serbian is very creative language in that department :)

Ah atg, i loved reading your post :)

^ i should say, post at 7/12/11 10:51 AM

You Nole fans deserve this happines now after all that time at Nr. 3 :)
Thx atg for your commments. You did not offend me, I never get offended here. Even when they insult me which has been more than once

The only one with zero personality on court is Fed. Just because he seemed such a colossus compared to the weak Roddick and Hewitt and the inconsistent Safin, he drew attention. Also we had dear Forstmann's friendship with Federer.
ATP promoted only Federer, gave him the best scheduling and courts and tried their best to build him up as the GOAT.
His balletic style was played up and his no. 1 status and domination exploited to the hilt.
My Dad used to say Edberg too was very graceful but he served and volleyed, so points were over in a flash.People did not get to see much of his ballet.
Federer was fortunate to come at a time when a combination of factors made baseline play most successful and further, there were only pygmies around when he reached his prime.
Rafa, Djokovic and AndyM have very real personalities and are very human.
Rafa is passionate and represents will to win, Djokovic has cultivated the "joker" image and now he is trying to switch to Rafa type image. I think he should be different to attract a bigger audience.
AndyM is the tragic hero. He can move us to tears with his inexplicable losses or by revealing his feelings as he did post Davis Cup. I think he is hugely attractive and ATP can really leverage his appeal.
It is not necessary to be no. 1 to be promoted. Interesting image is essential.
Agassi was promoted more than Sampras and Lendl was not promoted at all.
Kournikova never even won a WTA title but she was extensively promoted by WTA.
Sharapova was earning more than Rafa till recently.
If ATP wants to earn more $$$$, it should promote the exciting new stars instead of sticking to the same old man.

Cheryl, I found your blog from over 2 years ago when you expressed the same sentiments regarding Rafa being recognised for being the No 1 player.

To me, the man who gets more than his fair share of adulation from the tennis writers and commentators is Monsieur Federer.



Cheryl Murray
Nadal takes the back seat to Federer. Again.

2009-02-02 16:30:43

It is with considerable anger and frustration that I say enough is enough. Give this young man the credit he is due. Applaud his accomplishments instead of mourning all of the things he's taken from Federer. Credit his prodigious tennis skill, his superb athleticism, his unrivaled mental toughness and his kindness. Marvel at his consistency and admit that his number one ranking is NOT in name only. I can assure you that to do so is not a slight against the beloved Roger Federer. And come to the realization that perhaps there was never kryptonite at all, but TWO Supermen instead of one.

The continued success of tennis hinges upon the likeability of its top players. I have nothing personally against Lleyton Hewitt, but that era was tough in terms of marketing players. Basically, the ATP had to pin the state of their coffers on Andre Agassi because Hewitt simply wasn't embraced.

The continued success of tennis hinges upon the likeability of its top players.

cherylmurray , 7/12/11 6:24 PM

That is so true. Tennis is an individual sport so it's imperative that the players appeal to the masses otherwise it's a no goer.

tennisnba - do not spam this website. The next time it happens you will be banned. Thank you.

People tend to loose focus when posting so much untruths about the ONE.
So the posts in degrating Fed are getting fubbier and more stupid by the minute.

He became GOAT contender when he won US Open in 2007 his 10th final in a row and the third year of 4 where he wonb slams in a year. He became GOAT after winning Garros in 09 and sealed and deliverd it in Wimbly 09... the rest is gravy.

But I know that if youre father must have told you about Edberg you are actually not able to project your views on tennis and differentera's So that is it for me. I know now why people make such ludicrous statements about an era. Not old enough to actually see Edberg Becker monday finale..... That says enough/ GAME SET AND MATCH

of course meant to say...he won 3 slams a year. But again that has never happenend before.

LOL.

Who champion in 2010 ATP finals champion. Only top 8 players. who won?

Old player Roger Federer champion? In heyday Djokovic, heyday Nadal, heyday Murray. etc. Old player and have family and kids. Roger Federer 5th record champion. very funny. lol



cherylmullay

I am giving my views. I think bettet Djokovic better then Nadal. They are always annoying players. But, Because Nadal's fake is a reason. his always fake of time out. ugly gamesmanship. fake take time. etc. And, I hate Nadal.

you are a fan of Nadal fanatically. right? Therefore, is never this made an article? Nadal always look down past players. " Personally, to watch a Pete Sampras versus Goran Ivanisevic match, or one between those kind of players, is not enjoyable. It is not really tennis, "

This should be made a title. Why Nadal look down past players.

What do you think so?

Roger is a No1 favorite player of the fans for 8 years. Record. In ATP.com

who won next. Roger? Novak? Nadal? Murray?

^^

what do I think so? I think that you posted the same post in about 4 different places on this site. That is spamming. I don't care what's in the message. You spam, you get banned. Understood?

Nadal did say 'personally' .. this is his opinion.
He's always trashed for not commiting in his interviews and then when he wanders off from his usual script he's been made to look (again) as an outlaw..
Personally, I have to say I agree with Rafa - I usually hated to see Sampras playing

Rafa is entitled to his own opinion. In the past he's unable to speak his mind due his limited grasp of the English language. Nowadays as his proficiency in English improves, he gets more expressive. I love it when he gives elaborate answers to questions being asked during his press conferences. It's during his press conferences at the recent FO that we got to understand right now how he felt about his game, about his tennis career and so on. We his fans may have taken him for granted and assumed that he'll always be motivated and goes out there to fight all the time; however we have to understand that he's human and can feel tired, discouraged and pressurized too and we can't expect him to win all the time. I'm liking this out spoken Rafa who's letting us have a glimpse of his inner self and will let us appreciate him even more. There's nothing for me to complain about for sure.

Maybe if you hated to see Pete play. Try to watch thes 10 minutes of his Quarter against Courier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3v699NSroU&NR=1

I became a believer in Pistol Pete that day. We see through the soul and emotions of a player. It is almost exhibitionistic (is that understandable?) and looking at the match you almost feel like you are watching something uyou shouldn't.
But it just takes my breath away everytime I see it.

?
Sienna... thx for the link but I don't feel the same emotions that you do.
I respect you being a Sampras fan but I fail to see what so moving in this video... do you know what his injury turned out to be? because he seemed to not have problems with his movement or serve routine.

There was no injuries... well it did, blisters etc... but that was emotional roller-coaster for Pit. His trainer had diagnosed with brain tumor and had to fly back home. Courier find about that on on dinner night before match...

During 5th set on 1:1, 30:00 Smapras fun yelled "Do it for your coach", and then Sampras start crying and sobbing. Courier try to ease moment, joking "Are you OK, we can do this tomorrow"... both said they were death tired...

Remarkable match, not just by those circumstances ...

I think it's amazing how many of the players speak English well enough to give
strong interviews for US tv stations. In fact it seems like you almost never hear of a player who cannot give an interview because he/she does not speak English.

Novak and only novak this season

To say that tennis's future hinges on the likeability of its top players is a gross exaggeration. There are enough people who watch it for the pleasure of watching the game alone.

Thx at 7/13/11 7:20 PM for the explanation.
I couldn't understand why he would not retire if injured - now I see that it was emotional. It just show how good a player he was being able to concentrate even with this going on in his head.
But I still don't understand why Sienna choses this as an example of Sampras not being very enjoyable to watch... even the commentators say this during the video ('... and some people say this guy is boring'...).
Of course, I can't say that I saw every game that Sampras played and I know there's a lot more to his game than just the serve but it was very robotic to watch, the way he would escape out of trouble with his serve (I can see why he likes to watch Fed), demoralising not only to his opponent but a bit also to some fans.

Most people don't like to watch player who rely so heavily on serve, and if that fails than rush to the net to volley. While volleys shows some "creativity" you simply miss most of the tennis. Take a look on this two videos

1) Pete, and huge servers tennis: http://youtu.be/LC99glR53wE a
2) What people thinks is the best in tennis: http://youtu.be/7KLH8fUDRgE

That is why huge servers have "boring" tag along their names...

sampralica - I disagree completely. There are not enough hard-core tennis fans out there to fill out tournaments and more importantly to tune in on TV to make the sport lucrative. Tennis must produce personalities that people want to watch -- either because they love them (Pete, Andre, Roger, Rafa) or because they hate them (Connors, Nastase).

Helfant's bailing on the ATP should give you a fairly decent indication of its market share. He follows the money. Bottom line? There isn't any.

Cheryl is 100% correct. Business comes before sport, period. To people who really love tennis, the money aspect is irrelevant. For those in power, who make the decisions, it's the only thing that matters.

The absence of a global tv deal, which Federer himself complained about, tells the story. Tennis has an established base, yes. They are loyal. The players pretend to adore them. It's not competitive w/ respect to other sports.

Where Cheryl, Ricky and I live, you are hard pressed to find coverage of home tournaments. It's absolutely forgotten, replaced by much more important endeavors like....hot dog eating contests and high school (american) football games and bowling tournaments.

Even the mid-level players can't earn a living. One of them told me he made about 500K before everyone was paid. After the requisite palms were greased, he cleared about 37K. Tennis is struggling right now.

After an aging Federer and an oft physically fragile Nadal leave, to whom do they pass the torch? Djokovic? Not a chance in his current form. He is an unbelievably skilled player, but tennis talent alone is not enough.

The coverage, in fact, is so bad in the US, that in order to cover Newport, Atlanta or LA, you have to either attend the tournament or catch a livestream from Sky or Eurosport. These are for AMERICAN tournaments. Forget getting coverage over here from Basel or Valencia.

If you think Kelli is making up the hot-dog eating contest, I can assure you that said event gets PRIME coverage on ESPN. Precisely how jamming 60 (!) hot dogs, their buns and a gallon of water (in which the eater dissolves said buns) down one's throat in 10 minutes counts as a sport, I'll never know, but there it is.

If it's not careful, tennis is going to be written off as a niche sport like water polo is. At this point, Americans would MUCH rather watch Shaun White fall off his skateboard 6 times in a row trying a trick in a half-pipe than watch a match at the Cincinnati Masters.

shireling I'm sorry you did not understand. Pete was called boring because he never showed his emotions. Not because his tennis was boring!! Jeepers Creepers lets not make the mistake of thinking that Rafa was claiming Pete is boring tennis/ I'm sure he did not say that . He meant two serving dudes were a boring match to watch. well to each his own I find a match Ferrer Soderling a little tedious!

atgand when the fan said do it for your caoch and Courier asked or told Pete we cando thsi tomorrow. Sampras got angry because of the comment Courier made and served out the game with 3 aces.Incredible. and well if that is dull or boring then nothing about tennis will ever be special again and if you can recognice that, then you are sold.
What people saw that night was not a tennisgame but we saw the spirit of Pete Sampras. We saw a lttle of his soul.

I remember that Sampras/Courier match. Pete was in shambles, crying between every point and Jim got irritated. Obviously it was a mistake to prod Pete, because Courier would likely have won that match.

As for what Nadal said...I can't imagine anyone finds an ace-fest tennis match entertaining? HOw can you when there are no rallies at all to speak of. I am quite positive that he meant no insult to Pistol.

The coverage about the hot dog eating contest is embarrasingly real. Joey Chestnut (the reigning champion) and superstar Takeru Kobayashi received MORE coverage for the Nathan's Hot Dog tournament in Coney Island, New York than Djokovic did for becoming number 1 and winning Wimbledon.

Why the hell should I even know about Chestnut and Kobayashi? And yet, I do. I asked most of my extended family and friends who won Wimbledon, and they had no idea. When I told them it was Novak Djokovic, they had no clue who he was.

Tennis is in good shape outside of the country club geriatrics who frequent the Slams for appearance purposes? Sure it is.

Other than a footnote at ESPN and a smattering of other major markets, it wasn't even talked about. Nobody cared. That's WIMBLEDON ffs. A rinky dink little Masters event like Cincy or won't get a mention.

Yes that hot dog eating contest on 4th of July was a joke. I didn't bother to watch. Don't forget the spelling bee which is also considered a sport on ESPN. Actually I did watch some of that but it's not a sport at all. Thank goodness there is the Tennis Channel!

@kelli ", to whom do they pass the torch? Djokovic? Not a chance in his current form. He is an unbelievably skilled player, but tennis talent alone is not enough."

If Novak accepted Brits citizenship in 2003, we would now have hard time remembering who were Rafa and Federer. Novak likes attention, he is a showman, and he is such a good material... but there is not enough interest for him by "investors"...

Just pay attention to Head campaign during Wimbledon... There was no mention of Novak at all... all cards were put on Andy... and after final, they went for fast tribute campaign for no.1.

I know how is frustrating for journalists to cover tennis... I dug so deep in satellite hobby, just to learn how I could catch satellite broadcaster feeds in order to be able to see 500/250 tournaments... I have Sky coverage for UK/Germany/Italy, and I can watch soccer in all countries on 50 Bundes/Permiere/Calcio channels, up from kindergarten leagues to pros... but no 250/500 atp tennis...

That is why we need new McEnroe, why some journalist crave for sparks/passion on court, why Isner-Mahut was biggest buzz on Wimbly, why flying Tsonga has 50% share of all Wimby recaps and highlights... Tennis need spectacles, glamor, scandals, and so many things not related to tennis and not interesting for core tennis fans. Because money is where viewers are... reaching for bigger viewers share at all costs..

Cheryl didn't you enjoy Federer-Sampras in Wimbledon 2001. I think it was a great match and very entertaining.

But in the recent years with the change of the surface and/or balls it's almost like Ljubicic said "it seems that the courts in RG are faster than those in Wimbledon". And it is really sad that we can't see nowadays serve and volley in grass imo, something should be done to bring back the old grass courts.

Ljubicic is to grumpy this season... wining about courts, about Rafa and Novak time to prepare, balls... ATP and Tournaments will do everything to make tournament more interesting... and I am sorry, but point ending at three strikes at the most is not interesting to the masses.

Maybe there should be some contest during majors like NBA have for dunking, 3-point shooting, so all those big hitters can relieve their stress... There can be serve speed contest, run to the net, aces in the row... they can go home with at least some award...

I agree that there should be theme tournament for serve and volley, but not major. To me majors should have their specifics regarding surface diversity, but not to extremes. I am glad that Wimby was slowed down since 2001. But maybe Queens can be boosted to S&V extremes...

If Nole accepted British citizenship, he'll be more popular than Fed and Rafa? Well maybe in UK, but not in the rest of the world. Taking up British citizenship doesn't make Nole a better player or a more popular player, not everyone is obsessed with the nationality of the players. People support Fedal not because of their nationalities. Nole will compete with Murray in the
UK for their attention. Maybe that will take some pressure off Murray's shoulders resulting in Murray having better results than now.

Fedal have global fan base.Nobody else has.
In UK it's football and more football with a bit of cricket and golf thrown in, but I suppose I shouldn't complain as we don't have hot dog/pie eating tournaments..... yet

Cheryl
I agree that two bigserves are not mutch fun to watch, but you must remember old scool gravel on Garros where they just ket the ball inplay? That was tedious (h)well.
Atleast with the bigserve the match is over in the blink of an eye. Server v returner are always the most entertaining matches.
So actually come to think of those matche were far more or often happening then in these days. Now everybody or 80% of the players play the same often boring game. I agree that the top 3always play thrilling matches they make something happen. But Murray?, Soderling,Berdych, Verdasco,Ferrer, even Del Potro etc do not make my heart beat any faster and match up between those player is a little dull to say the least. So atleast in the time of Pistol Pete there were more matchup when a server met a S7V player and that is always nicer to watch,

Sienna 7/14/11 10:03 PM

I've seen several posts from you now and I see that you're in the habbit of telling people that they are wrong about things while appealing to logic.
Have you stopped to think that each of us interpret things differently perhaps?
That there is not only one truth about things...
I say out loud that, for me, Sampras' game was boring - I don't know much about his personality but both things go together I guess.
In contrast, I don't consider Novak's game boring, I find him a very entertaining player to watch.

On another note, thx Cheryl for deleting tennisnba's post, it's like opening a window to let fresh air in ;)

Shireling, To consider Sampras's game boring well? They should ban you from TT. As from now on you should not be allowed to post stupid comments about Sampras's game.
He played maybe some of the best matches ever. Boring was his not so positive knick name but not for his tennis. You keep trying to change history in order to give some meaning about the intolerate remarks from Rafa on that era. You absolutely know nothing you thought he was injured after watching his quarter against Courier! So that was one of the great moments of tennis and you did not know anything about it. Maybe you just recently started to watch tennis because of the nice bod of Rafa but tennis has been a great sport for decades not just when Rafa picked up a racket or his shorts.

My remark regarding UK citizenship doesn't have anything to do with nationality. It has to do with money and sponsorships. Having UK/US/West Europe no.1 and the rest of the world no.1 has absolutely different appeal to investors, sponsors, broadcasters...

Lets make comparison with Real Madrid soccer transfers. Can't remember was it Figo or Beckham, but at the point it was most expensive transfer. On the day they were making presentation of player, they have already covered transfer by sales of jerseys with his name and promo stuff. It's all about size of market... If Serbia's soccer club made such acquire, if whole population bought everything, it wouldn't help...

Rafa and Roger are global stars, but that was not the case in early beginnings. Tthey had substantial base interesting to investors to begin with and they had promising ROI. Novak and the rest of tour from "second/third world countries" have more difficult path, even if they personally are better predisposed with their personality.

Just wanted to make sure my remarks didn't anything to do with nationalism. Same is trough whole entertainment industry. For example Eurovision song contest, has pretty unfair political rule that big five nations "UK/France/Germany/Italy/Spain" have granted qualification to finals. But from economic standpoint it is unfair for them to be involved 80% in funding of broadcasting union and not reaching finals.

Sienna 7/15/11 1:08 PM

Again, you lash out from nowhere... (?).
Thankfully I have been posting here at TT for far longer than you have and I also have a fair chance of remaining long after thr likes of you are gone.
May I remind you that this is a discussion forum. (go ahead and wiki 'discussion') but you seem not to be able to do this without insulting....
I have seen a lot of tennis but since I found Sampras' matches boring i did not watch that one, I'm sure you see the logic in this.
I wasn't aware that that was one of the 'great moments of tennis', as you put it..... I wonder if TT fans agree on this....

I lash out to all people here who try to create some kind of new tennishistory.
It seems that you are one of the Nadal clan who just try to turn everything into somekind of sick twisted Rafamojo. He says something about the era of Sampras and you come here claiming you found his tennis actually boring. So giving claims or reasoning to Rafa bashing the era . It is sickening.

+1 for Rafamojo :)

Pete was great! I never cared about his 'sleepy' personality. He was a genius on the court.

pete was a great champ. enjoyed his style.

Pete's game had as much variety as a game of pong and his "genius" was built into where he would deliver his serve. But hey, never has a champion done more with so little, so there's that.

lol ping pong Pete! I found his style of play boring too. And then along came Fed......

I am going to jump in here and defend the beleagured Shireling on the issue of Pete's tennis. I admire him as a great champion, but I just did not love watching him much because it was an ace-fest. I know that some may love this kind of tennis, but it's not for me.

I see that even though I have taken a break from this site, some things never change here. It's unfortunate that a long-time poster like Shireling has to be insulted by someone who apparently has some difficulty understanding what a tennis forum discussion is supposed to be. It's not just one person who gets to mouth off and try to shut other people up. It's an exchange of ideas and the ability to respect honest differences between us.

I also agree with cheryl's comments about the truly wretched state of tennis coverage in the U.S. Hot dog eating contest, indeed! I also agree about the need for popular, marketable players to appeal to the fans.

Pete was easily the best player of the 1990's. Wonder if that's considered a weak era also.

"Pete was easily the best player of the 1990's. Wonder if that's considered a weak era also"
numero,

Do you think so?
He won the most slams so ill give it to you but
Agassi was the one for me.
And no it certainly was not a weak era'

just a quick word to say thanks NNY :)
.. it would be nice if all us fans could meet for dinner or something. I'm sure if we knew each other on a face2face level we wouldn't get so emotional about our postings :)
Hey, if there are any profesional tennis players reading this.. why don't you pay a meeting for all of us die-hard fans? maybe in the next WTF series :))))))) ?
(...yeah... like that's ever going to happen, lol)

"why don't you pay a meeting for all of us die-hard fans?" - that meeting could result with dead-hard fans according to intensity of discussions.

If someone decide to be in Belgrade in May on Serbian Open, I know that zare and rest of Serbian crew would be great hosts... And Belgrade is cheap with great night life...

I never managed to schedule my business/vacation trips to attend anything beside Umag and Belgrade. I planned this year to be in Miami, but I postponed travel for next year... and gues what, next year within 2 months when I will be in US, it is only period without tournament there :(

Anyone ever seen the rally on set point in the 1995 US Open final? That's what Sampras could do, he definitely wasn't just a serve - he was as complete as you could get in the 90s. Why people found him boring was because he made things look easy. On the other hand, some people like him perhaps because watching his mechanics on court was a joy, he was so fluent, served second serve aces, hit screaming forehands on the dead run, and had the slam dunk in his repertoire. He could outslug Agassi from the baseline if he wanted to, or just hit a few aces past him.

Boring? Suit yourself. He was easily the greatest player in his generation (not just more slams - he has the record for weeks at no.1, consecutive year end no.1s) and the best till Federer came along. He didn't win the French, but you couldn't expect him to realistically in such polarised conditions and Annacone certainly didn't help him in that cause. But you don't 14 slams and dominate like he did playing boring tennis.

I don't remember details of Sampras playing but I know I liked him above Agassi or Rafter. My Dad, who is a true tennis fan, has clips of Sampras hitting his running forehand, his slam dunk and of course the famous match when Sampras wept (because his coach was terminally ill). Thereafter I am told, the revelation of his emotional side endeared him to the fans and thereby to advertisers so he started getting sponsorships which till then were being offered mostly to the more popular Agassi.

samprallica , 7/18/11 4:39 PM

I do agree with you that Sampras wasn't just the serve, I've said it before.
Obviously you are a Sampras fan so we will not agree much about him - but it's true that it was frustrating for a non-Sampras fan like myself to see how easily he won sometimes :)
About your last sentence - Rafa has 10 slams and he's constantly being labelled as playing anti-tennis or junk ball tennis, or waiting for his opponents to make a mistake.. he's critised far more than Sampras ever was. So, you can get a feel of how us fans feel when we read this over and over again.

Sampras' slam dunk was very spectacular but not the most necessary of shots , I will add Murray's close to the net volley/tweener to this category. It pleases the masses :)

Every great player in tennis has played a unique brand of great tennis. As far as I'm concerned, none of the have been boring. As for what they do off-court, its just perception and how much it goes with a fan's view of how things should be - there is no correct or wrong necessarily.

I remember Sampras had this peculiar habit of sticking out his tongue and I think Agassi called him a monkey or words to that effect. Anyway, Sampras fans know what Rafa fans have to go through because of Rafa's habit of tugging at his shorts.
I have had the privilege of associating with several geniuses and what I noticed is that most of them have OCDs. Having an OCD may not make you a genius but a genius generally has an OCD. It maybe the super talented people's way of dealing with their frustrations which must be huge as most people aren't like them and do not have their huge passion and capacity for unending toil in their quest for perfection.
Even Roger maybe having some OCD which luckily for him must be playing out in the privacy of his home, not in public on the court. Like I knew somebody who arranged all the shoes in a neat row before retiring at night.

Pete did stick out his tongue like Michael Jordan...and "slam dunked" like him too...and made his sport look easy like him too. It was subconscious I think when he was deeply focused. Agassi was just jealous because he was never going to be as successful as Pete. Plus Agassi wasted too much time with crystal meth.

Depends upon how you define success. Sampras has more slams, but Agassi has them all. Sampras was a consistent force for a much longer time period, but is worth about 1/10 as much money as Agassi.

Have you heard any interviews Sampras has done over the last three years? All he talks about is how he wasn't chasing girls. He has repeated that exact phrase so much, that it has given some of us pause.

They were never friends (like a certain present duo weren't either) which is all I cared about. Acrimony, animosity, etc. between those two specifically was awesome.

Off the clock, Agassi- despite his glaring mistakes- was always very courteous and generous with support staff, in my experience. Sampras, on the other hand, wasn't and thought nothing of saying "get the fuck away from my car," to a couple of innocents outside of Nobu a couple of years ago.

Both have hot wives though- we'll call that a draw. :D

That's a tough call : more GS or more money. Hmmm... Anna Kournakova made a lot of money too but no titles. I think she may have traded some of that money for some glory. I'd rather have 14 than 8. You could always go into business and make more money but you can't buy more titles.

As far as the wives, Pete wins hands down. Sure Steffie is athletic but that nose needs some serious rhinoplasty.

Kelli, I'm sorry but as a tennis player, Sampras kicks Agassi's ass hands down. Agassi won a lot of slams after Pete's decline and the fact that he has them all does not supersede the fact that Pete has nearly twice as much, a lot more weeks at no.1 and a positive head-to-head record.

You look at those interviews, and you'll notice the same questions repeated over and over again.

Agassi has more money because he sells himself more, I don't think Pete had any interest in doing that. And you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see what Agassi really is - very nice when things go his way, but goes very sour when they don't. You surely would have notice all those backhanded insults he used to hand Pete when they were on the tour, I don't recall Pete responding in kind.

As far as tennis goes, Pete>>Andre. And as far as this blog is concerned, that's all that matters.

ah, but samprallica being a tennis fan is not all about the head eg Pete won more slams etc. it's even more about the heart and who touches it.

Rafter once told a story about ringing Sampras up to clarify some sort of off-colour remark he made in an interview. I don't know the exact details, but the writer either misquoted or misunderstood the Aussie's sense of humour and Sampras wasn't thrilled about what he heard. Rafter, whom I'm sure you know was widely regarded as the human equivalent of cane sugar, said he sincerely intended to apologize during the phone call. Sampras, according to Rafter, pulled the cringe-worthy "Pat, who?" card and promptly hung up on him.

Agassi may straddle the line between sweet and sour yes, but Sampras has got plenty of lemon in him as well.

As for the purpose of this blog being settled by a wham bam Pete>>Andre, it's not that simple. If the measuring stick is purely statistical, then yes, Sampras is ahead of Agassi. Many people who view and/or appreciate tennis in a strictly linear fashion will agree with that assessment.

For others, like myself, tennis an amalgamation of sport and entertainment. Sampras was 100% of the former and none of the later. He didn't care about wearing flashy clothes, donning a trendy hairstyle or parroting "IMAGE IS EVERYTHING," and that's completely fine. He was under no obligation to do a song and dance either on court or off, but public opinion outside of pure sport speaks volumes about him.

I was an Agassi fan...and unlike Fedals it was IMPOSSIBLE to like both Pete and Andre. there were NO Sampragassis. :D

With that admission out of the way, I still feel it worthwhile to point out that while Pete was more successful on the court, Agassi was the one on whom the commercial success of tennis in the 90s hinged. Sampras was a star only insofar as he won lots of titles and because he gave the Agassi-haters someone to cheer for. Otherwise, he said little, treated "the little guy" somewhat dismissively and generally had little use for advancing the sport.

Roger and Rafa individually are more likable than Pete and Andre....but they don't have the thinly veiled animosity for each other. Added a little spice every time pete and andre stepped onto the court.

sampras was better than agassi. hands down.

give me agassi any day...he was entertaining and interesting and NOT boring

Kelli, you think of tennis as though you're Donald Trump. Tennis is a game first and foremost and is settled by what happens on court with the ball. Pete > Andre at tennis and therefore in terms of the sport's history, goes down as the greater player. I'm not saying he was perfect and there have been moments when he's been dead wrong - but that doesn't mean I have to take some random poster's on the internet as proof for the fact that he was boring and couldn't be liked.

People like Agassi more, so what? People enjoy filth-stained explicit rap a lot as well. People like show-offs, they like noise. Doesn't work for me. Pete's imposing style of play, his demeanour and his heart (no one can rival him at that, except Nadal) were what I liked about him. Also, while he doesn't seem to be great at conversation, he doesn't come off as pretentious - exactly what Agassi is.

But I'm not going to sit here and defend his case in a pointless cause anymore. Pete Sampras is my favourite tennis player ever, not my father.

If I had to choose a favorite players of the nineties, Sampras would win hands down. What I liked about him was his passion for the game, his huge commitment to winning. Nadal is like Sampras in his extreme focus and determination.
But Nadal has a rock-star like quality. He is an extrovert whereas Sampras was not.
Sampras, if I remember correctly, had a difficult childhood and had to depend on some guy, allegedly a child molester, for training support.
Of course, I admit, I don't know much about Sampras as a person but I am filled with awe when I watch re-runs of his matches.
What he was like as a person I am not very clear, but what he was like as a tennis star, I have no doubt.

@cherylmurray: "there were no Sampragassis"...

You are wrong... I liked them both, although I wasn't hard core fan of either. It was more fun watching Agassi trough tournament, but with his cockiness and perks I was leaning toward Sampras when they met in tournament. Agassi always went for that extra step, one too far which irritated me. Their matches was classic clashes when everything matter, not just play, every gesture, word, cross-passing when switching sides, everything was under radar... packed with intensity and tension... I caught myself cheering for one on the start, and then switching for other... I believe I was actually wanted never ending match ;)

atg, what I mean by that is that there were no fans who would say "sampras and Agassi are my two favorite players" unless your name was John McEnroe and you were the current US Davis Cup captain.

My perspective on tennis calls to mind a bloated hack with a horrendous comb-over. Interesting.

I respect everyone's viewpoint regardless, although I'll always view tennis as a marriage of sport and circus. It's a fixed point. Let Sampras teach Cheryl how to ace an opponent at will & I'll hang out with Agassi in the Vegas casinos, trailing him like a bloodhound as he flings c-notes all over the place.

Six of one, half dozen of the other, it's all good.

Btw, I don't know who said this in the first place, but if there were no Sampragassis, I call bullshit on Fedals too. When push comes to shove, and one had the other championship point down/up...what have you, they'll hope for a certain outcome. It's all gloss and show because both Federer and Nadal are "nice." If you support one over the other, YOU look like the allen wrench.

Shireling, 7/18/11 11:44 AM,

You are more than welcome! :)

I just thought a little support was needed. You are one of the most reasonable and polite posters here!

deuce, 7/19/11 7:38 AM,

The best comment I have read on this blog! You just said it all. Nothing more to add, except thank you! :)

cheryl,

I happen to agree with you completely about being either and Agassi or a Sampras fan. I was more of an Agassi fan if I had to choose. I didn't feel anywhere near the way I did for Borg and certainly now for Rafa, but I did find myself cheering him on and getting more involved.

Please Sampras fans, no jumping all over me! As deuce said so well, the heart wants what the heart wants. To each his own and all that. I take nothing away from Pete's accomplishments in his stellar career. If I didn't love watching him as much as his fans do, then that is just my personal taste. I am certainly not questioning his greatness. I even remember crying some tears when he won his seventh Wimbledon and made history. He cried too as I remember. Quite a moment.

For me it was always Borg and then Rafa. They are the two who won my heart forever.

I think Nada's butt picking is more annoying than Samprass tongue lolling, lol
.. this is definitely one of the things Rafa could do without :)

NNY, that's so kind, thank you darling :) This fan business is strange isn't it? I remember thinking Fed, in his pomp was the most brilliant, player I'd ever seen, but touching my heart? Nah. Whereas Andy has my heart in a vice like grip and won't blooming let go! Simon, Youzny, Cilic, Tsonga have a piece too and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Tomic, with his funny weasel face, doesn't wander in at some point. So you see there's really no rhyme or reason to it.

I think Djokovic and Tomic look alike.

Well they both are Yugoslavian (Tomic is really a Croat).

I have always felt ambivalent about Djokovic. I admire his game and, give or take a few aberrations, his general sportsmansip. And whatever the outcome his matches are invariably engrossing and entertaining. But what always bothers me is the excessive style of celebrating (by both Nole and his entourage) which smacks of triumph at defeating his opponent rather than celebrating the win for its own sake. I appreciate a lack of understanding on my part of the cultural differences between Western and Eastern European attitudes to sport accounts for my distaste for the OTT antics and puzzlement at the extraordinary hero's welcome he was given on his return to Belgrade. I do wonder if all the adulation heaped upon him will be a negative or positive influence. Judging by the appalling bad taste of his 'joke' with Tipsy it does seem he is a bit power crazy at the moment. He might do well to reflect that Pride comes before a Fall.

Well said, Ed. Djokovic has only been No 1 for 2 weeks and he's totally lost his head, what woud he do if he were to dominate for half the time Roger and Rafa have?

Truly, Roger's arrogance pales into insignificance compared to the crass behaviour of Nole and his friends. This is enough reason why I hope he doesn't stay at the top for too long, tennis doesn't need that kind of behaviour.

Have viewed the link on another site..........................thanks.

All I can say is, well...............he is being, well.......................Nole!

I have voiced my "disapproval" (I know, he does not need my approval) of his entourage's behaviour on a separate blog and, as to be expected, all sorts of opprobrium was heaped on me by the rabid wing of Nole fandom. I was accused of blaming his entourage's behaviour on him. Well, I have always been of the opinion that you are the company you keep..................

Clear to me why I cannot warm to the man...............I admire his game immensely, especially the new improved version...............just cannot admire the man.

Roger may be arrogant, but he is not crass............

Rafa, thank God, is neither. Makes me appreciate Rafa more...................he is a class act, on and off the court.

I agree that a man is known by the company he keeps. Nole is being himself and he is having fun with all his antics but they are really classless.
But I think it is because he has been at the top for so short a time. Should he get used to it, he will behave like the nobility instead of the noveau riche.
Rafa was an exception in that he never behaved badly. And should Andy get to the top, he will behave like Rafa.

All I can say aabout this episode is - what a cRass act. Totally classless.

holdserve: nice one - a very apt analogy ;-)

having announced, after his first GS, that he reckoned he would be No.1 by the end of 2008 he had to wait for another three years to get there and at times must have wondered if he would ever get past the twin hurdle of Rafa and Roger: so we have to cut him some slack but I hope he tones down the swagger and stops behaving as if he were God's gift to the ATP pdq.

Well one just has to work on one's own game and wait for the chances to come. Nole has upped his own level and wait out Fed's decline and Rafa's coming down from his peak. I've to say Nole is a bit fortunate this year as Rafa was clearly affected by his illness this year. In my opinion, if Rafa has not being ill, he'll continue with his momentum from 2010 and will be hard to beat even by this Nole. Nole may have to wait another year or two for the no.1 ranking then.

First of all nice post Cheryl. Second- I dont understand why people seem to be against the top 3. All 3 are great players and no matter what anyone say all 3have proved themselves. FEderer has won 16 GS and weak era really? Then people will say Pete Sampras was also in weal era?No the matter is that Federer has dominated the game like noone has done ever before. He is consistent on every surface. Nadal is the greatest clay court player but he has yet to prove his worth on all the surfaces on a consistent basis.

Nole on the other hand has played brilliantly this year, his stats are amazing and it shows why he has no weaknesses left in his game :http://bit.ly/mZfnaq
It clearly shows how much he has improved and what a great player and force he can become.

Just a curious question, if Fed, Rafa, Nole, Murray and Delpo are all of the same age, do you think Fed can dominate over them during his and their prime, on all or any surface? To me Rafa and Co are much stronger opponents for Fed than Hewitt, Roddick, Blake, Gonzo. Maybe Safin and Nalby are the exceptions but both didn't live up to expectations. I think Rafa & Co won't make it easy for Fed to dominate over them. Maybe Nole at 24 is comparable to Fed at 24 on the hard court, at least the slower ones? Rafa is definitely better than Fed on clay at any age. Is Rafa at age 24 comparable to Fed at 24, ie the Fed of 2005-2006, on grass? What about Delpo on the fast hard courts? Delpo is not yet 23 and has the potential to be even better than now. Will he match the Fed of age 24 on the fast hard courts of the USO? If they can match Fed on any surface if they're of the same age, then I must say Fed is fortunate to have come before this group of youngsters. Rafa certainly is less fortunate as he has to deal with them when he and all of them are now in their prime.

Nole has no weaknesses? Really?

fantennis
, 7/23/11 5:06 PM

1. From your post, it appears YOU are the one who is against Rafa with your contradictory statements.
This is what you said, "Nadal is the greatest clay court player but he has yet to prove his worth on all the surfaces on a consistent basis.

Nole on the other hand has played brilliantly this year, his stats are amazing and it shows why he has no weaknesses left in his game :http://bit.ly/mZfnaq
It clearly shows how much he has improved and what a great player and force he can become."

In one felt swoop, you have:
a) dismissed Rafa's accomplishments as a CAREER GRAND SLAM CHAMPION. In case you do not understand what that means let me spell it out to you: it means he has excelled on ALL surfaces. And you come on here and recycle the same snide nonsense about him being a clay court champion, as if that is all he is?
b. Nole, to my knowledge, has yet to win a single French Open slam, nor a single USopen slam and you are quite happy to PROJECT him in the here and now as a future great player and force?

Sometimes I have to wonder: do some of you people THINK before you bang on your keyboards?

Give us a break, will ya...........................

I bang on all the time of how little credit is given to Rafa inspite of all he's achieved and now I resist the temptation no matter how much he's put down. Nole has excelled in the last 6 months and he gets more praise than Rafa has had for all his achievements in the past 6 years or so.

Rafa has 10 slams for crying out loud and is the leader of all time in the number of Masters titles, yet just because Nole took over the No 1 ranking 3 weeks ago he is the best thing since sliced bread and is said to have no weaknesses. When I dared to say the other day that Rafa's losses are due to injury, fatigue, loss of confidence and emotional stress, so many people were incredulous and thought I needed help, but there is Peter Bodo saying that Djokovic has no weakness and people are lapping it up To believe that Nole has no weaknesses is virtually saying he is unbeatable unless there is a reason, that's no different to what I claimed about Rafa.

Why is Federer consistent on all surfaces when he's only got one clay GS and probably no clay Masters, (can't be bothered to check), yet Rafa still has to prove himself on all surfaces other than clay despite the fact that he's got a GS on all surfaces including 2 on grass and Nole has arrived with just 2 slams, and none on clay.

Why not use the same yardstick to judge all of them.

My only question at this point is: will Nole's new best friends still be his best friends when (not if) he starts losing? Ooops..............he is never going to lose, silly me.................how can he.....................he has no weaknesses.

Rafa, please try and shut all these people up.

Goodness, when are these Rafa fans going to stop wailing about Nole and him being "crass"? It was a joke, get over it. Rafa and Kim talking sympathising with 9/11 victims on Arthur Ashe was way worse :D

samprallica
, 7/23/11 6:52 PM


ehhh................if you check the last SEVEN (7) posts before yours, you will find that we have all moved on, pretty much......lol

Check the last two posts before mine, and tell me what is being implied. You guys need to stop whining so much; winning and losing is part of the game, even Rafa accepts that.

Checked...................head scratch????????

"Nole on the other hand has played brilliantly this year, his stats are amazing and it shows why he has no weaknesses left in his game,
It clearly shows how much he has improved and what a great player and force he can become....

He certainly has dear boy!
But I must admit, I find his style of play a little bit predictable nowadays.
The patterns of play (though so potent & beautifully executed) are rather samey, mostly due to him assuming his arch baseline defensive game presently, with a shot of the attacking game of b4 for old times sake.
Winning all these matches, I'd be interested to see how often he makes it to the Shot of the week/day reel, could be wrong but I've not seen him there for a while. Still, it works, can't argue with THAT.
Probably more his style anyway.
'If you can't beat em' they say  'you might as well join em'.
When he played Murray @ the AO, he simply overwhelmed him with his brick wall defences crushing all hope, & then in the Madrid final, by trouncing Puss n Boots in his own back yard he fully evolved from Novak into.....
'Djoko Bunny'!!
But others will get used to his new intensity & it'll be v hard to maintain it anyway as Raffington himself has recently, precipitously, discovered.
At the Rome Semis an all too familiar pattern re-emerged as he swamped Muzzy bear with his sassy uber confidence & outrageous consistency, winning 90% of the rallies over 8 and taking the first set 61.
M Bear had a think (as you would!), increased the range of pace in his shots (including, but not only junk balling) to throw the metronome askew, found his ROS had not deserted him & finally got his wayward serve first and 2nd (also known as his Achilles heel) to behave.
And delightedly discovered that, well, he really could mix it with the Djoko B now & won the majority of the subsequent longer rallies thereafter.
My point is that Andy has already found a way to deal with this Djoko B (as has maybe The fed), he'd been down this road before remember & maybe it was a little bit easier this time.
Even though Andy has yet to execute his game plan properly....typical!
(Which of course is partially due to djoko b's prowess as well)
But does Raffington have the variety in his game to do the same?

Keep scratching. Right now, Rafa isn't the best :D

At this point, I am moved to quote the great Eric Cantona,

"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea."

LOL...................

Life really is beautiful......................

Why is Federer consistent on all surfaces when he's only got one clay GS and probably no clay Masters, (can't be bothered to check), nadline, 7/23/11 6:45 PM

Oh come on now!!!!!!!! Roger has 5 Masters titles on clay for the sake of the uninformed. In case you forgot, he did beat Rafa twice in finals of Hamburg and Madrid thus preventing him from acheiving the trifecta of clay Masters until he did it in 2010. If Hamburg was still a Masters event he probably would have more too.

Give the man some respect. Oh btw how many TMC/WTF titles does your guy have?

Obviously, some of Roger's clay Masters titles were won in the weak era.

By the way, Rafa has missed a few year end finals whilst Roger has competed in all of them.

Don't understand what samprallica is talking about. People are just responding to certain posts and I don't see why we can't discuss about Fed, Rafa, Nole and Murray.

sosueme - yes Rafa has the variety to deal with Nole, I've no doubt about that.

To me Rafa is pretty consistent over all surfaces. He's been winning hard court masters since 2005, and in the past two years hard court slams too. Since 2006, he has reached the finals of every Wimbledon he played, winning twice. Since 2008, Rafa is consisently in the top two where hard court ranking points are concerned. On hard courts, he's no.2 to Nole in 2008; no.1 in 2009; no.2 to Fed in 2010, isn't that consistent? This year he may finish within top two on the hard courts too. He's no.1 on grass in 2008, 2010 and no.2 in 2006,2007 and 2011, isn't that consistent? He's no.1 on clay since 2005!

numero, you know very well that Rafa was tired in both Hamburg and Madrid when he lost to Rafa.

I'll say that again:

numero, you know very well that Rafa was tired in both Hamburg and Madrid when he lost to Roger.

Well Fed won Hamburg in 2002,2004 and 2005 when Rafa was not there. Rafa did beat Fed there in 2008, so not sure that Fed would beat Rafa again at Hamburg if it was still a Masters event. Since 2009 Madrid, Fed doesn't seem to be able to beat Rafa on clay anymore.

Obviously, some of Roger's clay Masters titles were won in the weak era.
nadline, 7/23/11 7:57 PM

Why does that sound like something somebody else would say? So you're telling me that guys like Ferrero, Kuerten, Coria and Gaudio (who is the only guy to beat Rafa 3 times on clay) are considered weak clay courters? Give me a break!

numero, you know very well that Rafa was tired in both Hamburg and Madrid when he lost to Roger.
nadline, 7/23/11 8:02 PM

nadline,

You know very well that Rafa would still have ZERO USO titles had Nole not been tired in the final. So isn't fitness a part of tennis or does tired only apply to Rafa?

It never ceases to amaze me the animosity that many Fed and Rafa fans have for each other, ESP when you consider the symbiotic nature of the two stars.
They made each other people!
They defined each other, improving the game and the popularity of the sport along the way. And, as many times as one slammed the door on the other re slam finals (ESP Rafa) they invariably ensured that at least one of them got the title, if the other one didn't re the rest of the tour.
For as difficult as it is to beat Rafa and Roger separately, it's nigh on bloody impossible to beat them BOTH, one after the other.
So, just keep that in mind folks!

Did I say it never ceases to amaze me?
Pardon I meant to say it never ceases to bore me,
The amazement was in the past tense......

Well I personally don't think Roger needed Rafa since he was bigger than anybody even before Rafa started winning GS. Rafa may have needed those wins over Roger to get his career going. Come to think about it, you are right about them making sure nobody else won. I'd say Rafa owes his last 2 GS to Roger:

1. For tiring out Nole at USO

2. For taking out Nole at FO

numero's arguments are moronic. If we go by his argument Roger would get zero slams as whoever came on the other side was tired out by earlier rounds as the other half of the draw was always tougher. We don't know whether Fed was incredibly lucky or whether the draws were fixed courtesy his friends in ATP. For example at 2005 USO final, Agassi was tired out by his three consecutive 5-setters in the three previous rounds.
numero is only strengthening the argument that Fed's grand slam titles don't count at 100% and need to be discounted to 50%.

Ha ha,
Oh come ON Numero,
Together they scaled the heights and regardless of their future achievements going on...FEDAL shall be going DOWN as 2 parts of the same story in the history books, I believe so anyway.
Like Borg and Mac.
I've never really considered Rafa as being in the same 'generation' as Andy, Novak and Delpo, despite being the same age as them.
Roger and Rafa are the same generation to me.
As to the other.... well, can't really disagree with either. But I'll leave it to the Rafa fans to show other examples of where Roger has benefited from the (now terminated) duopoly over the last 5 years, of which I'm sure there are many. Roger certainly benefitted last year at the WTF when Andy played 
Rafa in the semis and tired HIM out.
But It's not my job to defend Rafa....

numero lacks basic comprehension and is governed by pure hate in his anti-Rafa rants.
The stats prove comprehensively that Fed is inferior to Rafa and Nole even when we compare his in-prime stats with Rafa and Nole's current stats.
If Muzza can beef up his service game, he too will overatake prime Fed's stats.
Small wonder that numero is now a Nole fan. He probably realized that not only had he hitched his wagon to a sinking star, the star wasn't that bright to begin with anyway.

I can't believe número is at it again. Nole has one whole day of rest before the USO final last year, how was he tired? I thought we had already discussed this topic till death already and yet número conveniently dig this out again. Please número, can you explain why Rafa was not tired after his AO semifinal against Verdasco in 2009? A tired Rafa still beat Fed in the final, so based on your logic, Rafa surely was better than Fed on the hard court, as he was able to beat Fed, tired regardless. Nole was not good enough therefore he can't beat Rafa.

Oh yes, last year's WTF, Fed had Murray to thank for, for tiring out Rafa, not forgetting that there's no one day rest in between from SF to Final at the WTF. Also Fed had Nole to thank for at Madrid 2009, for tiring out Rafa during the SF. Again there's no rest day between the SF and the Final.

If Rafa has thank Fed for taking out Nole at the FO, then Fed had to thank Sod for taking out Rafa at the FO in 2009. So all these players will be busy thanking each other! Please número, Fed is the biggest beneficiary during Rafa's 2009 injury. Fed won FO followed by Wimbledon in Rafa's absence. He had to thank two guys in particular: Nole and Sod! Nole for doing the serious damage to Rafa's knees at Madrid, and Sod for taking Rafa out at the FO. If Rafa wasn't injured then, I need no one to convince me who would win the FO and Wimbledon in that year.

Whether your opponent is tired or not, all of the titles count at 100%. Luck is a factor as Rafa faced all easy opponents before facing Nole in the final of USO and yes there have been times when Roger had easy draws too. Nonetheless all of the titles count at 100%. To state anything else is preposterous.

And yes, Roger was helped by Andy at WTF, Nole at Madrid 2009 and by Soderling at FO 2009. Perhaps that's why I have a soft spot for those guys. ;) I can't think of an instance where Rafa helped Roger win any titles by tiring anybody out. Usually Rafa wasn't good enough to get to the semis or finals of GS when Roger was in his peak 2004-2007.

Haha lucky and I seem to agree since we posted basically the same things at the same time.

Except for Nole being tired at USO. It's not a question of whether he had an extra day of rest or not. He was definitely tired. Go and watch the replay. He was tired in the first set before the rain delay. After the second set, he was so gassed he went to the 30+ ball bounces before serving. This was gluten-filled, easily fatigued Nole. He was dead dog tired through most of the semi with Roger also.

Not everybody has the recuperative powers that Rafa showed in Melbourne in 2009. Nole seems to have it now though so Rafa can't beat him on fitness anymore hence the h2h this year.

Well, numero your poor arguments are apparent. Rafa was pre-prime in 2004 to 2007.
Was your great Roger usually good enough to reach semis or finals of gs between 1999 and 2002 ? The poor sap wasn't good enough to reach even one final. then.
Ha ha, what a shame for your so called GOAT. He reached his prime and could shine because it was a weak era.
Along came Rafa and Nole and now the poor chap is nowhere. Once in a while he gets a win over these guys like Nalbandian or Davydenko used to and the Fed fans make much of it. Can't blame them. They don't have real achievements to celebrate.
It doesn't matter whether Roger was helped by Rafa or not but he was helped by somebody tiring his opponent out. But I guess concepts are difficult for you to follow. You can probably only follow kindergarten reasoning.

Oh holdserve,

I'm going to ignore the kindergarten-like insults from you.

The argument was that Sosueme said there were probably several instances where Rafa helped out Roger by tiring out an opponent before the final of a GS. It's not whether Roger was good enough to get to a GS final as a teenager. I brought up 2004-2007 since that's when Roger won most of his GS, at a time when he got no help from Rafa. Well I'd say he never did. Rafa getting his ass kicked by Delpo at USO in the semis in record time certainly didn't help Roger's cause in the final against Delpo.

As for you calling me a Nole fan, I've repeatedly stated that Roger is my favorite player and Nole is my second favorite player. You stated that Rafa and Andy are your co-favorite players although it's clear that you favor Rafa over Andy. So you think that you should have two favorite players and I can't support Nole as my second favorite player? That's beyond a double standard.

One thing I hope to see this year is a less favouritism to Roger in the US hard court swing, I will say that.
I understand it's not a conspiracy ( I hope!) as he's box office.
But really, it was borderline outrageous @ Cincinnati last year.
Andy had continuous day matches in incredible heat while Roger got all of the 
Evening ones. He apparently complained and requested 1 night match (pretty please), but as he was seeded to play Mardy Fish in the quarters...well the poor sods fate was sealed.
If they do it to him again Andy should have a cold next time round.
F!?k em.....

sosueme, Rafa doesn't belong to Fed's generation or Murray's generation. He together with Nole should be grouped in that generation after Fed and before Murray, ie the group who joined the tours in 2001-2003/4, the group consisting of Simon, Sod, Verdasco, Gasquet, etc, that group from age 24-28. Fed's group are from 1997/98-2000, the group that consist of Safin, Gonzo, Davy, Haas, Blake, Roddick, Hewitt, Nalby, Ferrer, etc.

Murray, though same age as Nole, joined later in 2005, so he belongs to the same group as Delpo, Cilic, and some others. I'm not sure where Tsonga and Monfils fit in, as I can't remember when they join though they belong to Rafa'a age group.

Narratively speaking Fedal shall be lumped together I just know it, it's obvious.
Thats all I meant.
But yes, you're more accurate in your grouping of the players.
Although as Rafa won his first slam when he was ninininnineteen,
I'm having a little bit of trouble putting him in with the rest due to his precociousness.

Seriously número, something is wrong with your argument. So is it Rafa's fault that Nole is tired at the USO final? Nole was simply not good enough to win a slam if he's so tired when he reached the final. Rafa has worst experience in the AO 2009 SF but still beats Fed in the final, so simply put Rafa is better than Fed at the AO 2009 and better than Nole at USO 2010! You can't have it both way número, you have to admit that Rafa was better than Fed there at the AO!

Do you think that Rafa at age 18-20, while still learning his trade, could help Fed in his prime? If anything, Fed needed somebody to take out Rafa before the final, AO 2010 Murray to take out Rafa, 2009 USO Delpo to take out Rafa, 2009 FO Sod to take out Rafa. Too bad for Fed that at the USO 2009, the one who took out Rafa also beats Fed to the crown!

Fed would never need Rafa to take out opponents for him, he needs someone to take out Rafa, so that Fed can have a better chance of winning the title! Simply put, Rafa's biggest help to Fed is to disappear during the tournament before meeting Fed, or better still simply miss the tournament, like Wimbledon 2009 for example!

No numero, I don't have double standards. I have loved AndyM even before I loved Rafa. But my superstar has refused to shine as he should have.
Rafa needs to consolidate his legacy. He doesn't have much time. He joined the tour in 2001.
But Andy joined in 2005 as he was advised that joining the pro tour too early i.e. while his body was still growing, could permanently damage him or something and result in recurrent injuries.
Maybe one of the reasons for Rafa being so injury prone is that he joined the tour at the age of 15.
I do not favor Rafa over Andy. But I definitely do not want Rafa to lose to Andy, only for the latter to lose to Fed or Nole in the final.
So before final, if these two meet, I support Rafa.
If they meet in the final, I will cheer for both and want the best man to win.
Unfortunately, whether by design or crazy chance, my two favorites seem to be joined at the hip and seem to be always on the same side.
You, on the other hand, have been an out and out Roger fan and like all Roger fans you were supporting Delpo as Roger's successor. If I remember correctly, you guys hated Nole because Roger did not like him.
Now this year, you have suddenly jumped onto the Nole bandwagon, not because you love him, but because you think he can prevent Rafa from overtaking Roger's records.
So you are not a true Nole fan. Still a Roger fan and anti-Rafa.
But I am a true fan of both Rafa and Nole, just like Serena and Venus williams family must be supporting both.

BTW For the record, even though I said I believed Rafa had a relatively easy path to slam success in last years USO.
I did not for a second think that he didn't thoroughly deserve the win.
You can only play what's put in front of you!
My argument was, that most likely this year, it's going to be much harder to replicate this success, because the way the draw plays out is probably not going to be so fortuitous (doesn't mean he can't make it however).
That's all!
I'm certain Roger has also had a few easy slams in the 16 he's collected so far.....
Maybe the first one for starters, oh and the one where he had to face Muzzy Bear in the final...nah the 2 where he had to face him, ha-ha!
Oh & GOD BLESS (or whatever it is) AMY WINEHOUSE!

numero here's the deal
You copy and paste at least one remark of yours before USO 2010 final ( because obviously in that final, Nole was your favorite) , so, BEFORE that final, any remark in any year where you have claimed Roger and Nole are your co favorites or even that Nole is your second favorite. Then I can track that thread and confirm.
If you do that, I will accept you as a true Nole fan and not find your professed love for Nole this year either sudden or suspicious. Otherwise, you are just an anti-Rafa fan.

Sosueme, ok Amy Winehouse is dead but what's the connection? Couldn't figure out. These singers and actors like Amy Winehouse, Michael Jackson, Brittany Murphy, Heath Ledger, they all died suddenly because they were on drugs, I think.

Oh yes I forgot Murray did help Fed by taking out Rafa at the USO 2008. Rafa also ran out of gas in that Miami final this year, as that's pretty obvious but numero chose to ignore it. Rafa was obviously still regaining his fitness after that long injury break. When. anyone beats him he's not allowed to be tired or injured; when he beats someone, that someone can be excused for being tired or whatever, such is the double standard applied when Rafa is involved.

What?!
There's no connection whatsoever.
I was just expressing....
Forget it.

lucky,

Rafa was dead tired and knees were screwed at USO 2008. He would not have beaten Roger had he gotten past Andy. In any case, I noted 3 cases above, as you did, where others took Rafa out. Sosueme said there were examples where Rafa tired somebody out for Roger before a final and I said there wasn't. That was my point.

numero here's the deal
You copy and paste at least one remark of yours before USO 2010 final holdserve, 7/24/11 4:08 AM

Errr there are no threads in which I took part before USO for me to copy and paste. I haven't been here forever you know.

Okay Numero,
Murray was also tired at the USO final as he had to play the day before it against Rafa due to the weather conditions.
Remember I'm not a Rafa fan per se, but nevertheless my original claim that the Fedal symbiosis was actually very helpful to Fedal was not predicated purely in either of them tiring an opponent out. I meant that psychologically & or practically to take on Rafa and Roger at the same tournament was a very big ask indeed....
I used the example of fatigue at the WTF so I can see why you think that was my only point, and certainly being tired is a key factor, but not the only one when you are talking about beating one after the other..

Sosueme@7.04, loved your description of Andy in that match against Nole. What an amazing tennis brain/range of shots he has. Do u remember him playing Nalbandian last year? Losing horribly, oh damn had better serve and volley then...there that's done it!
However, sometimes I think Fed is almost a totally instinctive player on court and it has served him very well, whereas Andy is almost totally a "thinker" on court and, at times, it has not served him so well. Last match against Rafa shows this. Too much going on between the ears there!
I exaggerate of course, but feel some truth in this.

You know very well that Rafa would still have ZERO USO titles had Nole not been tired in the final. So isn't fitness a part of tennis or does tired only apply to Rafa?

numero , 7/23/11 10:24 PM

Hahahahahahaha! I din't think you were that naive, if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

Al the players you listed as having beaten Rafa on clay were seasoned players against a teenager who shouldn't even have been on the senior's tour.

numero, these three pronouncements of yours prove that even you are not convinced of your own argument.


nadline,

You know very well that Rafa would still have ZERO USO titles had Nole not been tired in the final. So isn't fitness a part of tennis or does tired only apply to Rafa?

numero , 7/23/11 10:24 PM



I'd say Rafa owes his last 2 GS to Roger:

1. For tiring out Nole at USO

numero , 7/24/11 12:52 AM



Whether your opponent is tired or not, all of the titles count at 100%. Luck is a factor

numero , 7/24/11 2:20 AM

Ha ha, only thing consistent about numero is his hatred of Rafa.

It's common knowledge that Numero is just a sad little Rafa hater, nothing else.

Don't understand what samprallica is talking about. People are just responding to certain posts and I don't see why we can't discuss about Fed, Rafa, Nole and Murray.


luckystar
, 7/23/11 7:57 PM

Thank you, Luckystar!........hence my bemused reposte...................

Rafa, please try and shut all these people up.
nadline
, 7/23/11 6:51 PM


Don't worry, he will..........................in his own inimitable way.............

In case there are any doubts out there as to who is the best:

http://www.rafaelnadal.com/content/espy-awards-rafa-awarded-b est-male-tennis-player

nadline,

There was no contradiction on my part. I never said Rafa's USO title didn't count. I was responding to holdserve's claim that Roger's GS should be counted at 50 %, a ridiculous statement anyone would surely agree.

"However, sometimes I think Fed is almost a totally instinctive player on court and it has served him very well, whereas Andy is almost totally a "thinker" on court and, at times, it has not served him so well. Last match against Rafa shows this. Too much going on between the ears there!..."

@deuce,

I completely agree with you darling!
The Fed is a very instinctive player with patterns of play that are usually familiar (ie to the initiated).
It's due to his very wide range of shots and capabilities that he appears more 'cerebral' than he actually is (ie to everyone else).
Murray is the one that truly thinks analytically and can lead every other player up the garden path because of it. But it sometimes gets in the way as it's not always what's required esp in the clutch moments.
More often aggression is the more efficient & direct path to success and he has to incorporate a bit more of it into his game.
He also has to let his autonomic responses take over at key moments as they are way faster than anything you can consciously think.
IE less thinking and more relaxation.
Raffington has the balance just about right in this respect I think, as he can construct a point on court, trap you into it and then BAM out comes the FHDTL, & your done!
But I still believe there are key advantages to being a thinker in tennis as you can 'change' your gameplay mid match and THIS I believe is one of his great advantages over the other players.
You've just got to pick your times......

Roger I agree is an instinctive player that's why I don't think there is very much that Annacone can do for him because it's not in his DNA to think about what he's doing, he just does it and sometimes it works sometimes not. When he tried to run around his b/h in the final at RG he couldn't keep it going for too long because it's just not him.

Rafa and Andy, on the other hand, work things out as the matches progress. I have seen Rafa do this many times against players he'd never played before, usually, the first set is very close whilst he is assesing their game then as soon as he decides what he has to do, he wins subsequent sets very easily.

Yes agree with nadline about Rafa. Rafa gets the balance just right, between instinctive play and thinking play. He's also one who can change up during a match when things are not going his way. He gets the defense and offense just right and knows when to pull the trigger. Maybe because of that, Murray likes watching Rafa plays and gets some tips about when to be offensive and when not to.

Nole is learning fast and he's getting his defense/offense right too this season. I guess these days, its not enough to be offensive. One has to beef up on one's defense too. Its just like everyone is improving on his serve so now having good ROS becomes all the more important.

Is global economic collapse going to affect the future of the ATP? Seems like August 2nd is going to be a big day for the rest of the world, depending on what happens in the US Congress.

Actually I said that Luckystar, anyway
I wish Muzzy Bear would make improvements on his serve, serious ones!
Then we would really be talking about a 3 horse race for the Numero UNO.....

Good point samprallica. Tennis lost a few sponsors with the global down-turn in 2009 so they are not immune to it. I often wonder what it's like for the likes of Rafa and other sussessful spaniards who are millionaires when they hear that Spain is on the brink.

OK sosueme, noted.

nadline, I think Rafa and co. contributed to the Spanish economy by paying their taxes there, unless some of them choose to take residences elsewhere. I don't know how the tax system works in Spain, will the Spaniards be taxed if their income are not remitted back to Spain, ie if they're paid anywhere outside Spain. Also will their investment income elsewhere be taxable in Spain when remitted back?

The problem is, we aren't talking of a regular "global downturn". If the dollar defaults, that would mean Western economies will be messed up for a long long time. Congress can play the game of raising the debt ceiling, but for how much longer? Of course, the very rich will survive, what happens to the rest? Will the ATP continue as it is?

"Congress can play the game of raising the debt ceiling, but for how much longer? Of course, the very rich will survive, what happens to the rest? Will the ATP continue as it is..."

Ha-ha-ha hilarious,
Spoken like a true tennis fan, more concerned with the future of the ATP than little things like homeless and starvation.
Before you react I know what your saying but remember the tour was amateur a lot longer than
It was professional, not that it was preferable....
BTW down believe the hype government can pay the interest on the debt until a deal is reached
But the American economy is risking a downgrade on it's credit rating...

Ooopps I meant,
DON'T believe the hype...

Don't believe the hype from Obama and his donkeys. They did the same panic/fear-mongering thing with his massive stimulus package (that did nothing btw) when he first came to office. The elephants are trying to cut the deficit and look out for the super-rich and that won't work either. In any case, the euro will fall before the USD.

As usual the insiders will get filthy rich(er) and everybody else will have the wool pulled over their eyes. The ATP will still go on. Maybe the prize money won't be as big (inflation-adjusted that is).

Unless there's World War III or the economy collapses into utter chaos, the ATP will go on even if funding is cut down or the prize money is reduced. Do the top stars have any alternative occupation not dependent on tennis which would be more remunerative than playing on the tour during a downturn?
I don't think the fans need to worry. We can be like Jane Austen and completely ignore the political or macro economic events and confine our discussions to Rafa's injuries or Djoko's crassness or Murray's serve or Roger's decline or their MTOs or toilet breaks.

What's up with tennis - we have the Roger's Cup and the FedEx Index. Very spooky.

@ holdserve , 7/24/11 8:29 PM

I've also got a stack of Rafa's matches on DVD to keep me going.

well Fed is ex, so guess spooky is ok. Don't the departed ones become ghosts to haunt us especially if they hadn't been able to achieve their goals ( like being crowned as GOAT?)

nadline, my Dad has a huge collection of matches so I can keep going for the next 10 years, at least.

How about we all convene at Deuce's place (£1 to sit on the sofas, 50p standing room only) to watch replays of the highlights in Rafa's career. You will also need to bring your own booze and contribute your favourite home cooked food. If there are too many of us maybe we'll need to hire a marquee and extra seating.

ed, I think deuce might agree if we decide to watch replays of highlights of Rafa and Muzza's career.

@Sosueme and @numero, of course the issue of the ATP pales in comparison to what the common man will have to go through in the next few years. As for the issue on hype-mongering, I can only wonder how much longer the insiders will remain content with getting richer only and not move on to grander schemes.

Yes, I did wonder why deuce would want to hold a Rafa Highlights party and if we include Muzza's highlights then it would all be counter productive because some of Muzza's highlights are Rafa's lowlights and vice versa. Too complicated.

We'll end up with two seperate groups, one remininiscing Rafa's highlights with sangria and tapas, and Muzza's group with haggis and scotch whisky. We could all meet later for a 'swiss roll' dessert.

I was watching a Rafa DVD yesterday and my husband walked past and said 'I'm sure even Nadal has forgotten that he ever played that match.'

nadline, I feel sad when I think of Dec '10-January '11 this year. In his exhibition match at Abu Dhabi, he seemed to be so good. There was confidence and, it seemed to me, he was like a coiled spring waiting for an opportune moment to unleash huge skill and power. He gave me that impression even at the charity matches with Federer.
I wouldn't be surprised if some Gunther Parche type of person introduced the virus to him. You don't need a knife these days to get rid of someone.
It was foolish on Rafa's part to accept the charity matches invitation when he was on the verge of creating history. He should have tightened up security,, reduced unnecessary interactions with outsiders and focused on his fitness and his game.

nadline: 'swiss roll dessert' - you do make me laugh. Take your point, there could be a conflict of interests but Deuce has always been so generous with her hospitality and is pretty broadminded. She even invested in a new red and gold sofa for us! Also she is a Rafa supporter, as I am of Andy, except when they face each other, so I'm sure we could come to an amicable arrangement.

I like your husband's a dry sense of humour too.

swiss roll dessert- yeah, good one!

I thought the charity matches were the idea of Rafa's mum, as she's the person in charge of Rafa's foundation. It turned out not a good idea as it ate into Rafa's off season rest time. I think Rafa got the virus from his physio Maymo. I seemed that only Rafa got infected, I don't think Uncle Toni or Carlos Costa or whoever in his team was affected. There goes to show that Rafa's immunity then was low.

Yeah, not a good idea to do so many things at one time while Rafa was on the verge of making history in his tennis career. It seemed that Rafa's team would never learn any lesson from past experiences. Similar things happened in 2009, after Rafa won his first ever hard court slam at the AO. The future then looked so bright, as he had an opportunity to win three slams in a row, he being the favorite to do the channel slam again. Instead of skipping Rotterdam to rest after his tough matches at the SF & F of AO, he went ahead to play at Rotterdam, a quick hard court surface and got himself injured. Three weeks later, while not completely recovered, he had to play in the DC tie against Serbia. He had to play as Nole was playing then. So one problem led to another and the FO loss that year was the last straw! This whole experience sounded familiar doesn't it, as it repeated itself this year right at the beginning at Doha. Illness then injury again and recuperating followed by DC tie, then loss after loss at the finals and the Wimbledon loss was the last straw! He lost his no.1 ranking again, after Wimbledon, just like in 2009. Hopefully its still not too late for the Rafa team to wake up and do things right for the sake of Rafa's tennis career.

No, it was Federer's idea. Rafa accepted to play in Switzerland.
Then Rafa's mum got the idea of doing a similar thing for Rafa in Spain. Crazy woman. She probably wanted all the publicity. She even made an anti-Uncle Toni remark expressing her resentment obliquely that he was getting all the credit for Rafa becoming what he had become.
According to Fed, first it was Rafa's physio who got affected.
Fed also claimed that he himself had been affected by some virus in the last week of Dec ( perhaps to explain why he lost to Rafa at Abu Dhabi).
Merely because we did not hear about Uncle Toni etc getting affected, we can't be certain they were not affected.
Fed made that statement about Rafa's physio, so we know somebody else was affected. But was it reported by any other source? In fact the illnesses of sports stars and their injuries are treated like state secrets.
We had very little information about Fed's mono except the rants of Fed fans.
Serena's foot injury, although Kim Clijsters said it was bad (she and Serena played an exhibition match at Belgium immediately after the injury), no one made an effort to interview Kim or Serena to find out the details.

Rafa is 25 now. I fear time is running out for him.
I doubt that he will ever win 3 slams in a year again. He had that chance in 2009 and this year. Maybe next year if Djoko and Andy go into a slump. Small chance, though.
No chance in 2013 or thereafter.
Don't know whether we can blame his team. I think it is always his idea. The team's role is to prevent him. Like they succeeded in doing in the pre-US open events last year. Xisca and the team had that worried expression on their faces when he was playing at Cincy. I think they had warned him not to risk injury by going for too much.

Rafa seems to have mishaps of one kind or another in odd years so hopefully, 2012 will be his year to excell again. There must be something we can do with gluten, surely!

I was in Abu Dhabi for the exhibition tournament at the turn of the year (how many times have I mentioned this?) Rafa was sublime. When I saw some pictures that I took against giant posters of Rafa I realised what I was wearing and decided that the top was my lucky top. Sadly I had it on for the Wim final and it didn't work.

I understand that Novak has sacked the doctor who was responsible for his gluten free diet and psychological mind set. Apparently, the doctor has now signed up with Ivanovic. I'm thinking that since Rafa and Ana are buddies, then maybe, just maybe she could let Rafa borrow him for some advice.

I dont get it. If, as we are led to believe, it was the gluten free diet and vastly improved mindset which were responsible for propelling Nole to the dizzy heights he reached this year, why on earth would he want to 'shoot the messenger'?

I don't care about this gluten free diet. Rafa without gluten free diet still did well enough in 2008,2009 and 2010 to win six slams. Fed in his TMF days needed no gluten free diet to win eleven to twelve slams. These two guys are truly special, whether we want to argue about weak era or strong era. They are the two leading men for so long and practically have positive H2H against all the rest of the field, with only one or two exceptions, meaning they are the best among all players. Had Rafa and his team managed his schedule well, we might have seen some TMF kind of results from Rafa from 2008-2011, winning ten to eleven slams, maybe even twelve with a calendar slam! It's Rafa's own undoing (and his team's for not providing sound advices). Well maybe that's not their focus, I don't know. We fans here rue about the missed opportunities, but do Rafa and his team think the same?

It's unlikely that Rafa can repeat what he did in 2010, I think that was his last chance of winning three slams in a year. We can only hope that he can defend his USO title this year, and tries to win two slams a year for another two years. By then he'll be twenty seven so if he's still good enough, to win one slam a year for another one two years. With competition heating up where Nole, Murray and Delpo reaching their prime and their peak now, it's certainly not getting any easier for Rafa, though I feel he still can compete with them and winning some. Rafa has the honor of meeting Fed and his batch during their prime, his own batch during their prime and now Delpo's batch getting into their prime; if he's still around, soon it'll be Raonic's batch in their prime. Fed too if he stays around long enough, though I have to say Fed is more fortunate as he need not deal with a TMF figure during the early days of his career and his way to the top was clearly less difficult than Rafa's.

ed@11.58, that's a brilliant idea! But regarding a conflict of interest perhaps we'd just have to play matches where Andy or Rafa win but not when they play each other? Plenty of goodies there, as well as many v. Fed ;)
nadline, I can't stand Whisky and as for Swiss Roll ......yuk, yuk! How about some Dundee cake?

deuce, fruit cake doesn't really cut it with nor any cake for that matter but I thought munching on the 'Swiss' while rolling his over would be very satisfying.

Deuce, you dont like Swiss Roll? I'll have your share. M&S sell the most heavenly apricot and cream version which I can eat in one go!

BTW. why are they called Swiss Rolls?

@ed251137 , 7/26/11 9:25 AM

A Swiss called Sir Smugalot was a tennis player who made his living by beating sitting ducks at will. He made is name doing this for a while and was even thought to be the greatest to ever play the game, until a young Spaniard known as Lord Humble challenged him.

Lord Humble was more than a match for Sir Smugalot who found that he could no longer reach the balls that Lord Humble hit back to him because Lord Humble was able to hit forehands down the line and backhand cross courts by chasing and rolling the ball from any where.

Lord Smugalot was at a loss to work out how he could also hit these balls on a roll, so a Swiss Prof developed a cake that could be rolled into a log shape which he call a Swiss Roll and told Sir Smugalot to eat these Swiss Rolls to help him with rolling a ball from anywhere on the court, unfortunately, the Swiss Prof didn?t think of using gluten free flour so the Swiss Roll is still a work in progress.

nadline, would love Andy to roll over the Swiss on their next meeting, v. good pun btw, but alas, alas cannot like that particular cake, even the M and S variety that ed loves.

Hi there Rafa and Andy friends,
I haven't posted in ages. We were on vacation in England and Ireland during Wimbledon and away from computers. Caught some of the Wimbledon on TV and did catch the final. By the time we were back here and with easy reach of the internet it was a little late to comment on things past.

Deuce, please continue to invite us. Nadline, I too like your husband's sense of humour... perhaps he even knows how good Rafa's memory is for matches he's played? And I love the Story of the Roll Swiss!

While in London and Dublin we visited M&S often and bought some of their goodies. Here in Toronto we have an online petition trying to convince M&S to expand their stores back to our humble country. (They closed the M&S shops some 10 years ago.)

Ed, I too don't understand why Novak fired the guy who helped him with those 2 crucial pieces of improvement, among other crucial ones.

So finally, and very very late: major congrats to Novak! !! Well deserved. And I am still happy with Nadal's performance overall this spring. In the meantime I don't see much in the way of a third slam for Novak this year. Injury? Could happen but not very likely. A sudden drop in self-confidence? same. Someone beating him before he lifts the trophy? Also possible. But less likely than the opposite.

Don't worry: it is not that I wouldn't want my guy to lift his second, far from it. But as far as we can tell so far Novak's domination this year is far from over. Well deserved. Here's to him and here's to Nadal winning non-claycourt slams again.

nadline: Sir Smugalot. Priceless. Still rofling. That goes straight to the top of my list of this year's best comments on TT.

Hey chlorostoma, I feel Rafa is not going to lost to Djoko at US Open. If he doesn't win USO, it would be AndyM. I don't think Djoko's going to win.
This maybe wishful thinking or based on a reasonable belief that Rafa would have had enough time to work out how to beat Djoko. I also think that if AndyM and Djoko are on the same side, AndyM will win over Djoko in the semis.

I also feel that on a fast hard court, Nole's game style may not work that well if he happens to face a big hitter. I think both Fed and Murray, even Delpo, will be able to beat Nole at the USO. Both Fed and Delpo can rush Nole into error if they hit deep penetrating shots continuously from corner to corner. Murray, like Tomic, will junk ball his way and irritates the hell out of Nole. As for Rafa, depending on which Rafa shows up, if it's the one of USO
2010, I believe he can beat anyone, or even the one who plays like he did at Miami this year but with improved fitness and mindset. Anything less, I don't think Rafa can win!

Well, luckystar, you've said this countless times about how you think so and so will beat Nole, and I'll give you credit for getting it right once this year. :P At least you're not at 0%.

samprallica, why are you getting at me? So no one can say anything about beating
Nole? So in your mind Nole is unbeatable?? Well Fed proved that Nole is beatable, so I'm just expanding from there. Nole had some narrow escapes this year, he won't be so lucky always. Bellucci should get him if not for being too inexperienced; Murray should get him in that Rome semifinal. You can't deny that Bellucci was he better player for most part of that match, though not enough. Murray too had himself to blame. Fedal also had their narrow escapes in the past and they were also beaten even during their best time in their career. The way you sounded, it seems that you don't believe anyone can beat Nole these days, and you're not happy that I even mention of anyone able to beat Nole. Don't understand why you think no one can criticize Nole now, strange behaviour.

For your info, I was just expanding on something being discussed here, not that I intentionally have a go at Nole. I don't care too much about Nole actually, even though I don't mind him and like him as a player. It's some of his fanatical supporters, especially at other forums, that really pissed people off. I hope samprallica is not one of those!

what do you expect from someone who is in love with nadal 10000000000000000 %.

Djokovic fans are fast beginning to resemble Fed fans. What a pity!

rfzr - are you one of those Nole fanatical supporters? Judging from your unfair comment! I think you yourself is in love with Nole a good whole lots of percentage, maybe till infinity! May I know what can you add constructively to the comments here?

Don't worry about us Murray fans changing, guys...when Andy wins first first slam we'll all be in such a daze, we won't wake up till 2020!

Last year the Bleacher Report gave 10 Reasons Why Nadal Won't Win The USO 2010, guess what they have the same 10 reasons in 2011.

You just have to laugh.

@Luckystar, no of course not, you can say what you want to - I'm just pointing out that most of your posts about Nole have this pattern: "Nole is just playing like Rafa of old.... not much difference in his game.... Rafa can beat him if he...... (Oops!)...... Fed can beat him with his..... Fed and murray and even Delpo can beat him if they...... Nole struggles against such and such so Murray and Fed and even Delpo...... Murray and Delpo and Fed can do such and such so Nole will lose at the USO....."

All I'm seeing is shades of imjimmy when he describes Nadal, and nadline was on him in a flash every single time.

Roll on Montreal already!

Can't wait to see Rafa strutting his stuff....................

FYI, samprallica, that's all I know about Nole. Unlike some of you here, who follow all news about Nole, I don't know much about him, so what I talk about is only his tennis. I can see from the way he plays now that it's different from the past; in the past he played paint the line high risk tennis which when on song is simply gorgeous. In fact I'm more impressed with the way he played in the past and there's one tournament which I think he played his best tennis besides his AO 2008, and that was Paris Masters 2009. In his semifinal match against Rafa in that Paris Masters, he was playing master class tennis, playing like a chess master, anticipating Rafa's every move and moving to the net at the right time always. In fact with his improved fitness now, if he played that way, I would be more impressed with Nole than how he's playing now.

His style now is more on defence and it's more taxing on his body, just like what it was with Rafa in the past. No wonder Nole had his knee taped up now, he seemed fine in the past without much injuries. Now Rafa is playing more like Fed, playing more attacking tennis than defensive tennis and I'm happy for him.

Rafa has proven that the defence/offence tennis can work well but may come at a price. I do not know whatever happened to him would happen to others or not, only time will tell. I also commented on other players, like Cilic, Simon, Fed and Murray. You just happen to pick on my comments about Nole!

I'm full of admiration for Fed's tennis and his achievements, having seen him played live. He may not be my favorite player but I won't want to talk bad about him. However I can always criticize his game if he isn't playing well, just like I used to criticize Rafa when he sometimes played some lousy or silly points or makes some silly shot selections. It's not like I always pick on Nole, it's jus that you're his fan and you only concentrate on any comments about him.

How much you're impressed with Nole is besides the point; because its better that Nole wins and fails to impress random "luckystar" than loses and has random "luckystar" gushing over his "paint-the-line tennis". Right now, the guy is a lot more complete player than he used to be in the past - yes, it might not be as spectacular since he isn't going for as much risk, but the construction of points from the baseline is a lot better, and he just seems to have a lot more options.

Its amazing that you keep calling on Nole's "defensive" style on tennis and say that Rafa has a more offensive game (defense/offense) when Rafa was the one who was being yanked around the baseline and was wrong-footed time and again. Offensive tennis doesn't constitute only the odd rush to the net and painting the lines; striking first in a rally and creating angles and openings in a rally still makes you the aggressor - even if the aggression is more controlled and requires more shots to be put in implementation. Nole is still more naturally aggressive than Rafa from the baseline because his technique allows him to hit the ball flatter - but now he has other options as well, and he's using them. Injuries may happen, but he's playing a lot smarter for my money.

This is why, when you say Murray, Fed and Delpo can beat Nole because of certain factors, you have to be prepared to accept that Nole might find solutions within matches itself to beat them.

Actually, I take the comment about Nole being less spectacular back. He makes great returns more often, hits more winners on the dead run than he used, makes impossible gets and can still stand up and smack the cover off the ball when he needs to - e.g. those two points a tthe 5 4 in the first set of the Wimbledon final when he hit two huge forehands.

And for the record, I don't see Nole as invincible at all - there are definitely ways and means to beat him, but you have illustrated the point in nearly EVERY comment you have made about Nole recently or you have chosen to say "Oh well, he's like previous Rafa that's why he's winning, and Rafa was ill earlier in the year". Seems like there is a lot more than rational argument there.

You see samprallica, what you said about how Nole is playing now is exactly how Rafa is playing all along. In fact what you've posted has confirmed what I said earlier, about how Nole is playing like Rafa used to. He's doing more point construction at the baseline and wait patiently for his chances to turn offensive and that's precisely how Rafa plays in the past and on clay now. It's beyond me that when I mentioned this some Nole fans feel offended!

As I've mentioned, the style that Rafa, and now Nole is playing is very effective but may need more time on the court and hence more demanding on the body. Fed's first strike tennis is less demanding in the body, and so I'm happy now that Rafa is doing that more often on the hard courts. His Miami tournament this year had demonstrated that he can be offensive at the net and so save him some time, instead of staying at the baseline and work his points to get to an offensive position. To me Rafa has to play this way now to cut down on some running and save his body to go the distance as he grows older. Doesn't Fed now plays this way with his net rushing game too, to save himself more time and energy and control things at the net?

One can be aggressive at the net and at the baseline, as Rafa and now Nole have shown. However I feel that baseline rallies take up more energy if one has to go on and on in some 20+ shots, unless one can bang down forehands like Delpo all the time and wins a point within a few shots.

FYI, Nole is not the only one who can create those sharp angled cross court winning shots, the top four guys all can do that. You have the right to feel that Nole's tennis now is more spectacular than before, though I have different oppinion from yours. To each his own, no point arguing about this. You mentioned that Nole may think of ways to counter Fed, Murray and Delpo, of course he can, nobody says he can't. Until we see his next meetings with them, nobody knows what will be the outcome.

samprallica, one more thing. When I said that Nole plays like Rafa used to play, I'm not the only one saying this. In fact many commentators were saying this, and said that Nole beats Rafa at his (Rafa's) own game, and some said that he out-Rafa'd Rafa.

Nole 'yanking' Rafa around from corner to corner happened on clay and grass this year. Why? Because Rafa was being out-Rafa'd by the new version Nole. In IW and Miami, I didn't see Nole yanking Rafa around at the baseline, because Rafa was playing differently on hard courts this year. And if you can't see Rafa having fitness issue earlier during the year, then well we just have to agree to disagree. However, during the clay and then the grass season, his fitness was back to his normal level, so please note that I didn't say anything about his fitness when he lost to Nole on clay. He lost because he was taking a more defensive position on court and allowed Nole to 'yank' him around from corner to corner.

After more investigation and experimentation the Swiss Prof thought he needed to take a fresh look at the situation. He thought back to observations he had made about Lord Smugalot all along and thus finally came to create a Humble Pie to be eaten along with the Roll Swiss.

He was quite certain that then the Roll Swiss could have its full effect. Unfortunately Lord Smugalot had gone off Humble Pie since the days he had started to regularly win duck tournaments. Lord Smugalot just could not stomach any of this Pie and said to the Prof that he would not, could not touch that pastry. The Prof saw clearly that indeed he would not, at least not until he would reach such an age in life as when his Groomed Hair would have turned entirely to silver.

The Prof sighed and realised that for all its virtuous power the Roll Swiss would not effect its charms freely and fully with this Lord. What good is all my Art, said he, when the patient is not willing? And so the sun rose and the sun set and men persisted with their follies as they had before.

Oh yes samprallica, in case you think that I was trying to let Rafa have all the credit for the defence/offence play that now Nole is also playing successfully, please note that I have posted earlier on another thread, that Rafa may have paid the price for that with his injury problems and I'm wondering is it wise for players to beef up on their fitness and started to run and run the whole day, something Monfils, Murray and now Nole are doing these days.

I'm in favor of players playing more like Fed than Rafa, especially when they grow older, and so I'm happy that Rafa recognizes this and is slowly but progressively playing more an all court tennis on the hard court. To me, Rafa can play his defence/offence game very well when he's younger and fitter, but after his 2009 injury, he seems to be a bit slower than before and I don't think he can continue to play his 'old' game as well as before.

Whether Nole may suffer the same fate as Rafa where injury is concerned, we have to wait and see. He may not, of course, as their body type may be different and Nole strikes the ball differently.

@luckystar, I'm sorry but to say Nole plays like Rafa of before is too simplistic an explanation for me. For one thing, Rafa was a lot further behind the baseline in his old Rafa days and relied a lot more on one wing to be offensive, i.e. his forehand. At his best in 2008, he had a spectacular backhand crosscourt but that was more often than not a nail-in-coffin shot rather than a go-to point construction shot.

Nole hits flatter, which means the pace of he rallies he dictates are substantially different to old Rafa, has a more even use of both wings to construct points, uses the drop shot a lot more, and stands a lot closer to the baseline than Rafa. I'll give an easy example of the difference between old Rafa and Nole - when they play Federer, it is quite obvious that Nole retains some of the stuff that is unique to him even today. Its not like his success can be attributed to grabbing a Rafa patent alone.

chlorostoma @ 3:34 PM I keep imagining newcomers to TT expecting to read about tennis coming across this (without having seen the earlier entries) and wondering what the hell they will make of it!!!

samprallica, we are talking about playing style here. Of course no two players are alike or strike the ball exactly the same way. The defence/offence style is NOT Rafa's patent, for I believe before Rafa, some other players might have played the same way. When I said Nole played like Rafa, it was because when I saw Nole played this year, it striked me that it's very much like how Rafa was playing all along, ie the defence to offence, not the way they strike the ball or hit their shots. It's just like now Rafa is trying to play an all court game and in certain ways, I feel that he resembles Fed. I think we shouldn't take offence about all these, as I do not mean to say that Nole is successful because he is copying Rafa's success formula. If that is the case then Rafa is also copying Fed's success formula, and Fed may be copying Sampras' success formula. They all learn from each other and change their style as they evolve as a
tennis player.

I agree with samprallica. Djokovic is more aggressive than nadal. In fact, djokovics hit off the rise groundstrokes and his incredible return remind me a bit of agassi.(although hes a far better athlete than Andre was)

Which is why Nole out-Rafa'd Rafa or beat Rafa at his own game. It's because he stands closer to the baseline, takes the ball early and steps into the court as soon as he finds a short ball and turns defence into offence. His ROS is also the best in the game, hence putting pressure on his opponent's service games.

It's a bit like Davy who can take the ball early and rushed Rafa into errors, and that's why Davy can beat Rafa so often on the hard courts. However on clay, Rafa can move better than Davy especially when Rafa is a lot quicker in the past and clay being a slow surface, that Rafa can still overcome Davy's style of play. Rafa standing so far behind the baseline when playing on clay this year against a player like Nole, who moves much quicker than Davy, was asking to be beaten. More so, if Rafa can't move as quick as he used to in the past.

Yea, damsel Edwina, your words speak true. A neophyte must first through several initiations pass. Until then these be but murky mysteries.

samprallica: you tell them, that's the book example on how to be constructive. sounding like 'in love broken record' is quite opposite.

deuce: i think nole fans have been really fair and down to earth. i have no doubts andy will get his first gs soon. what i am afraid of is the evil called: british media.

Well whether you're Nole fan, Fed fan or Rafa fan, one thing in common, ie you can't stand others criticizing your favorite player, or talking about how some players can beat your favorite player. This was how all this discussion started. Please don't talk like one group of fans is fairer than the other, for from these discussions, I can see that Nole's fans love for Nole may be even more fervent than some Rafa fans'. Stop pointing fingers at others or adopt a higher than thou attitude. It's pot calling the kettle black.

Nole fans fair and down to earth? When? Where?
And luckystar, stop trying to appear objective. No one will thank you for it.
How can you put behavior of Nole fans on par with that of Rafa fans ( pot and kettle)?
Should we draw attention to the utter trash posted on Rafa's walls by these "fair and down to earth" Nole fans?
Djoko's crass behaviour in celebrating his wins and the classless act of 'what will Rafa gief' etc is nothing compared to the classlessness or crassness of how the Nole fans have behaved after Nole hit his purple patch and started beating Rafa.
Do you find comparable behavior in Rafa and Rafa's fans even when Rafa was beating Roger or AndyM or Djoko? Or when he was winning three slams last year?

holdserve, I'm just talking about Nole fans who posted on this forum. Most of them are still behaving alright even though some are fervent supporters and don't 'allow' others to criticize Nole. I can't say the same for many Nole supporters at other forums. The Racquet Reactions column of the TennisWorld is the worst, once Nole started beating Fedal, you see such crass remarks from Nole's supporters there. I'll never want to read any comments at the Racquet Reactions, especially when after a match involving either Fed, Rafa or Nole.

ok, the Nole fans on this forum are not too bad especially those like mriidula who try to be fair.

At the moment I'm been patronised by a Djoko B fan boy  (from Serbia).
He thinks that it's unfortunate for Muzzy that he is playing in an era with Rafa, Roger & Novak but he thinks (no he's SURE!) will probably win 1 slam one day. I told him you better hope he doesnt win one, as he will be a severe
problem for Novak (& everyone else) if he does & that particular Gorilla is finally off his back.
Still the Serbian People should be proud of DB's incredible success, they've not had a tremendous amount of good PR over the last couple of decades so it was needed. The gun thing was certainly crass, but it was meant as a laugh and I'm sure they both quickly realised it was a mistake.
Remember it was on Tipsys Facebook page with the Rafa reference not Novaks.
As for all of the Rafa fans being modest, reasonable & kind etc here, I think NOT my loves. You simply don't notice it because you're Rafa fans also....

After more investigation and experimentation the Swiss Prof thought he needed to take a fresh look at the situation. He thought back to observations he had made about Lord Smugalot all along and thus finally came to create a Humble Pie to be eaten along with the Roll Swiss.

chlorostoma , 7/27/11 3:34 PM


So funny!


I agree with samprallica. Djokovic is more aggressive than nadal. In fact, djokovics hit off the rise groundstrokes and his incredible return remind me a bit of agassi.(although hes a far better athlete than Andre was)

tj600 , 7/27/11 6:21 PM



tj, when have you not agreed to anything that puts Nadal down.

sosueme, that's why I say each group of fans has it's fair share of devoted fans who can't stand their favorite player being criticized, so there's not a group being fairer than the other.

Talking about Murray, I think I have to agree with Uncle Toni, that if Murray is playing his best tennis, there's nothing much Rafa can do to beat him. In my opinion, if Murray can realize his full potential, there's nothing others can do to beat him.

To me, Fed is the ultimate tennis player for now (and Rafa the ultimate warrior), but if Andy Murray can realize his full potential, and improve his serves and his forehand, he may end up being the ultimate tennis player for me. I was thinking about the top four guys plus Delpo, about their games and their strengths and weaknesses. I have to say that Murray has all the qualities needed to be the near perfect player for me, if he can overcome his shortcomings.

Murray has all the shots in the book like Fed, has the fitness like Rafa and Nole, has a good tennis brain like Rafa and Simon. One thing he has that I feel is better than anyone else is he simply has all sorts of varieties in his game to deal with very different opponents. He can S&V the whole set to beat Nalby; against Nole, he can junk ball him; against Fed, he can play his counterpunching game to it's fullest; against Delpo, he can absorb his big hittings and move the big guy around; and against Rafa, he plays his most aggressive game. The guy simply has all sorts of varieities in his game to deal with anyone!

He's still not a master yet, maybe a senior apprentice. He has almost all his tools fully sharpened and polished , maybe with the exceptions of one or two, it's just that he hasn't master the skill of using the right tool for the right job yet. As a Rafa fan, I certainly hope that Rafa can win more slams before Murray becomes the next Master.

I'm aware there is a clutch of people who jump from forum to forum speading trouble wherever they go but IMO it is a mistake to imply all fans on TT (whatever their allegiance) are tarred with the same brush as fans on other forums. It is human nature to be protective about your own particular idol and fine as long as this doesn't become over zealous and degenerate into unpleasant personal attacks on people for the views they express.

Nice post Luckystar!
It's funny, I remember you saying that your ideal player would be a cross of Federer and Nadal with regard to variation etc 
I realised that who you were describing sounded a lot like Andy Murray to me!
Minus a SHBH the Focus and the Serve.
Unfortunately 2 out of the 3 above are far and away his most serious problems to overcome & are intrinsic to any possibility of him becoming dominant in the next few years, but I'm hopeful.
A lot of what ails Andy Murray I think is down to maturity, it's natural and inevitable that's he's going to grow up and out of it eventually.
He's had one of the steepest and toughest professional learning curves of anyone ever but he's still around at the top & slowly progressing.
He's doing well enough at the moment & I'm sure the stars should align for him soon enough.
As to Rafas slams hopes, well you have to say he's probably going to get a few more Roland G's under his belt and take all of his chances when they appear for the others, but I think he'll not be playing tennis when he's 30+ like the Fed, I think he thinks that as well, if you read between the lines. 
Whether he gets to 17 slams or not is irrelevant anyway as he really has nothing to prove anymore....

AndyM is perhaps the most talented player ever. He has the talent, the skills, the fitness. Uncle Toni had identified him long ago as the greatest threat to Rafa. Yet despite having all the tools, our man is yet to win a gs slam and time is fast running out for him. What is wrong?
It could be as Luckystar says, the man has all the tools but hasn't figured out which tool to employ when or where.
But I feel the real problem is his lack of confidence. He doesn't know he is great and thinks he is an ugly duckling when in reality he is a swan or as per my my favorite analogy, he is a superlative horse.
Because of his lack of confidence, he doesn't let his subconscious take over. Instead he is forcing himself to be at the third level viz conscious competence. He is constantly consciously thinking which means delay and perhaps even wrong choice.
This guy needs to learn to relax, to trust his instincts.
All the conscious thinking should be done on the practice courts.
When he is in a match, he should just trust his gut .
Clearly he needs a gs win to give him that confidence.
A combination of factors could give him that win despite his self-destructive tendencies viz an easy draw, chief rivals out of commission, others playing worse etc.
Once he has that win, let the others watch out.
I am waiting for that day.

In fact, he may not even require a gs win. Just the exhilaration of winning as he did at the Davis Cup. Not weighed down with anxieties about himself. His moving speech gives me hope.

Talking about Murray, I think I have to agree with Uncle Toni, that if Murray is playing his best tennis, there's nothing much Rafa can do to beat him. In my opinion, if Murray can realize his full potential, there's nothing others can do to beat him.

luckystar , 7/28/11 12:18 PM


I really don't agree with you here. Unless youa re saying that Muray hardly plays to his potential. Rafa is a better player than Murray, IMO and I'd put it the other way round, that if Rafa is playing at 100% there is nothing Murray can do to beat him.
Rafa hasn't been in the top 2 for nigh on 7 years for nothing.

We all know that we should take what U. Toni says with a large pinch of salt, because he never knowingly talks Rafa up or talk anyone else down.

The only player I've always thought could go toe to toe with Rafa is Djokovic so it suits me that Rafa can only meet him in finals at the moment. I've alsway thought the outcome of matches between Rafa and Nole was 50/50, despite Rafa's favourable h2h over him until this year. I don't mind Rafa meeting Federer or Murray in SFs because I know Rafa's got the edge over both of them all things being equal i.e, When they are all fit and well.

nadline, to me Murray has not reached his full potential yet. For Rafa I really don't know, as he's already in top two for a long time now. He may improve his game further by improving his skills, improving his shots or maybe even add in some new shots. However, can Rafa add in the varieties and play differently against different players. Where this is concerned, I think Murray has the upper hand. Murray has to play aggresively when playing against Rafa, for that's the best way to deal with Rafa, and right now, in my opinion, Murray's aggressive game is the weakest among his varieties of games. He can junk ball very well, counterpunch very well, S&V well too, but his aggressive game needs improvements as sometimes he tends to pull the trigger to soon or too late when attacking. I think that may explain why Rafa is the hardest to beat for Murray, despite running Rafa close on many occasions.

Right now Rafa can play his aggressive game better than Murray so in most of their encounters, Rafa came out the victor, hence their H2H of 12-4 in Rafa's favor. However one day if Murray perfected his offensive game, who knows, he may start beating Rafa regularly, though may not be 100% of the times, as no one can be at their best all the time.

Of course as a Rafa fan, I hope Rafa can improve further to deal with all these challenges, at this point no one knows how things may turn out, as we're talking about things happening in the future.

Really?
You've always thought that Novak could go 'toe to toe' with Rafa..
Always Nadline?
Including at just the start of the year when the h2h was 16/7
Oh alright then...
I haven't been here long enough to directly contradict you.
However, the more likely scenario methinks is that you've simply been forced to accept the present situation, and have done so in a way that helps you to live with it,
That's all.
In any instance we're are not talking about the past or even presently as Murray is still maturing and hasn't peaked yet whereas the other 3 are peaking or are starting to decline.
We are talking about potential although it remains to be seen whether it shall be realised or not.
Try to keep up dear.....

When I watch Rafa and Murray play I just don't see Murray having the upper hand in any shape or form. They haven't always had close matches by the way.

One day perhaps Rafa will get full recognition and not always be put down against people he beat all the time. What else does he have to do to be given full credit?

Luckystar, why do you think Murray has not reached his full potential and Rafa has? There is only 1 year between them in age. Why run Rafa down on the basis that Murray has not yet reached his full potential, why not judge them on current performance, it just sounds like an excuse for putting Murray in a better light up against Rafa, to me. What's the points of saying that if one day Murray perfected his offensive game, he may start beating Rafa regualrly? You might as well say that if one day Rafa could start serving more aces he could do this that and the other.

Judge the players on what they can do now not on some pie in the sky idea of what they could do if they improved on this that or the other. You could use that argument for any player because you have no gaurantee that Murray will improve his offensive game or that Rafa won't improve on his weakneses.

Why not compare Murray against other why Rafa after all Rafa is not the only one who beats him.

Sos the fact that Rafa has beaten Nole 5 times in a row before and Nole has now done the same is testament to what I have always felt that when they go on court either of them could win anytime. For instance, I feel that when Rafa goes on court with Delpo, Sod, Murray or Fed, Rafa will most likely win, even though some people feel that Delpo is a bad match up for Rafa, I don't think that's the case at all.

Wow, just polishing my specs and re-reading all these lovely comments about Andy....let the good times roll....

Oh Dear.
Why do feel the need to be so over the top defensive about Raffington Nadline ALL THE TIME?
It's not rational position to take particularly in a debate.
All that complaining about nothing, It gets in the way!
Luckystar and Holdserve are not just here to big up Rafa, theyre here (are we listening?) because in addition to being big Rafa fans they're are also passionate about Tennis.
Andy Murray and Rafael Nadal are at different stages of their development, every players career and course is different.
That's a fool proof observation Nadline, it's not a sacrilegious statement to make!

nadline, as I've mentioned at present Rafa is better than Murray. Their H2H and their rankings say so. We talk about players' potentials all the time, because many of them are still young and have a few more years to either mature or to develop their games further. Of course when talking about things happening in the future, nobody will know for sure what's going to happen. Murray may turn out not fulfilling his full potential, or we may see him fulfilling his potential and yet not as good as we expected. No need to feel offended about Rafa not given full credit for what he has achieved or has the potential to achieve. Rafa may turn out better than what we all expected and then we'll all be overjoyed. To me what Rafa has achieved now is enough to put him among the greats so anything more will be just bonus, though as long as Rafa is still competing, I'll always hope for him to carry on winning.

"Why not compare Murray against other why Rafa after all Rafa is not the only one who beats him..."

Ha yeah let's compare him with Donald Young as he beat Muzzy recently too...

^^^^Why not? Do Bolgomolov whilst you are at it.

Rafa gets more than his fair share of put downs so putting him down based of IFs and BUTs is really superfluous.

By all means view Murray's game in a positive light and hope for better things to come but there is no need to put down in the process.

It all sounds like wishful thinking to me that one day Rafa will always lose to Murray.

Oh Nadline, You know I would worry for you if I cared because the end shall eventually come for Rafa (probably sooner rather than later) and I wonder what on earth youre going to do then....

nadline u make it really difficult for anyone to have a discussion about anyone at all in relation to Rafa.
holdserve and lucky are HUGE Rafa fans. How can you possibly think either would put Rafa down? They are having a hypothetical discussion about Andy's potential, is all.

Sosueme, I've often thought some poor Rafa fans must feel they are treading on egg shells all the time :(

Oh she's a good cheerleader for Puss n Boots so she has her uses to them I would think.
 But if you can't ever criticise Rafa constructively...
... you know look at things objectively or analytically when that's what you're about and that's what debates are supposed to be about....
Well, that could get a little tedious for sure!
Id also like to see the evidence here that she always thought Novak could stand up to Rafa blah blah, I doubt well find any!
I'm calling bulls?!t on that one!
Nadline's clearly More interested in Rafa than Tennis but she's a good sort at heart, she just really, really, REEALLLY loves the Rafa!

I think nadline should have her own thread and only she should be able to post on it. That way she could agree with herself about how wonderful and infallible Rafa is .... because nobody else does. ;)

I think nadline is just the sort of fan a tennis star would love to have. Not somebody like numero who unable to find good things to say about his idol or find opportunities to celebrate any big wins of his idol, takes the totally negative approach of making false and vicious allegations against Rafa and supports anyone who can defeat Rafa.
If AndyM does find whatever it is he is missing and starts beating Rafa, beware Muzza fans, this false fan called numero will become a fan of Muzza.
No one thinks Rafa is infallible. He is human. But he is definitely wonderful both as a tennis player and as a human being. Gracious and humble unlike you-know-who.

I am sure all Rafa fans would love this article
http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/328693/thats-spirit-sport
As this tennistalk site distorts all urls please google nadal spirit of sport if the url in my post doesn't work.

Oh I dunno Holdserve darling,
Have you seen 'The Fan' with Robert Niro and Wesley Snipes?
Just kidding, I'm sure he'd would also like to meet her if he knew how pure her devotion was to him, or regardless.
He's always so lovely to his fans & to everyone really....

For the record, I do like Murray, just not as much as some other players. Consider the fact that I really like Delpo despite the fact that he took one GS from Roger. Plus I like Nole even though he's taken Roger out of 3 GS semis plus beat him numerous other times. At least I'm not a blind worshiper of any player and I don't despise anyone who beats him. Plus I don't make excuses for said player every time he loses.

numero, Fed's past his prime so you know he cannot prevent Rafa's march. All Fed fans loved Delpo because he beat Rafa badly at the USO semis and they thought he could preserve Fed's legacy by preventing Rafa from winning more slams or being no. 1. Well the anointed successor to Fed, anointed both by Fed as well as by his fans for the simple reason that Rafa was a threat to Fed's GOAT legacy, proved to be a disappointment and Rafa went on to win three successive slams and would have eclipsed Federer without a doubt had he accomplished the non-calendar slam.
But still the way he was going, you knew he would win two or three every year for three years and maybe one after that for another 2 years, viz dear Fed's 16 slam mark was in danger.
Then along came Djoko and he started beating Rafa. All Fed fans had hated him after 2008 AO when his Mom had announced the king is dead, long live the king.
But you quickly forgot your hatred in the larger cause of preserving Fed's legacy and accepted Djoko as Fed's champion fighting to preserve your idol's gs records because otherwise Rafa would win everything in sight. If it weren't for Djoko, Nadal would have had an even better season this year despite his injuries because Fed is clearly in decline and others are somewhat in awe of Rafa.
Your love for Delpo and Djokovic is nothing but your love for Fed requiring you to support and love those who can prevent Rafa from surpassing Fed's gs record.

sosueme, Nadline is indeed a great fan. She rightly supports Rafa when others discount his achievements and talk as if he is a pushover on the hard courts despite his having two gs titles on the surface which is better than anybody else's (current players) except Federer's and now Djoko's.
We need more fans like her to prevent Rafa-haters from spreading lies and making false allegations.
Even though Lucky is a huge Rafa fan, it upsets me sometimes when she sides with the enemy not realizing that they will simply exploit her fair mindedness without accepting any of her pro-Rafa posts.
I am also quite passionate , I think, in my support of Rafa against his enemies.

I'm proud of being a devoted fan of Rafa's, that's why I wouldn't harp on about what I perceive to be his weaknesses. I just hate reading about how this or that player is so talented compared to Rafa who is just perceived to be a warrior. No one has any means of knowing who has more potential than the other and whilst it's perfectly OK to hope that a player improves and achieves more it is not OK to do so only by making Rafa look less than the great player he is.

I had no problem with holdserve's post @ 7/28/11 4:14 PM, because she expressed her assessment and expectations of Murray's game without once mentioning the shortcomings of any other player.

People banged on about Rafa not being a h/c player inspite of his many successes on h/c because he hadn't won a GS. The minute he won the AO they began to split hairs that he couldn't win the USO because that's a fast h/c; so he won the USO by beating Djokovic and still they manage to find some nuance why he is not as talented as Murray or Djokovic on h/c. That is so ridiculous.

By all means praise and admire other players but there is no need to put Rafa down in order to do so.

When I say Rafa is the ultimate warrior, that doesn't mean that Rafa is not a great tennis player, they are not mutually exclusive. One can be a great warrior and also a great player. Rafa has proven that he is both, as his results have shown. Being a fan of one player doesn't mean that I can't praise another player, or I can only criticize other players but not my favorite player. Also a great player can also have his weaknesses, as nobody is perfect. As great as Fed and Rafa are, they both have their weaknesses and if they don't play their best, their weaknesses my be exploited by their opponents and be beaten.

When I say that Murray at his best may beat Rafa regularly, that may also depend on the surface. To me Rafa is still the best on clay, even though he has been beaten twice this year by Nole. Also this is just my opinion, I may be right or I may be wrong. I don't control the players so I can only guess. In no way am I putting down Rafa and his abililities, for if Uncle Toni can see the threat Murray can pose to Rafa in future, they may still have time to counter this rising force. We shall see what happen in future.

Whether or not u r a fan of Rafa, u would have to be a complete tennis muppet not to acknowledge what a gr8 player and a gr8 warrior he is. And IMHO lining up for GOAT on clay.
All players have weaknesses in their games/personalities, otherwise they would be boring robots and we would have nothing to talk about. I don't feel that discussing these in any way diminishes their magnificence.

Of course I expect people who are not fans of Rafa's to lap up anything that points to their favourite player's attributes over Rafa and optimistic conclusions of how he would be able to beat Rafa regularly. But see how you'd like me banging on about Murray like this:

Murray will never be good enough to beat Rafa on a regular basis because I think he has reached his full potential.

If I ever posted anything close to this you'd all be down on me like a ton of bricks. I am not trying to moderate what people say but I hope I am free to disagree with them.

@11:29 AM Come now Satusuma that is hitting a bit below the belt.

Nadline has been resident cheerleader for all Rafa fans here on TT for as long as I can remember and works tirelessly to fight his corner. OK, she can get a carried away sometimes when she feels he is being attacked - for which she takes a lot of stick - but that is her natural mother hen instinct.

Sosueme, at least Nadline sticks to the subject matter of the players and their tennis whereas you keep getting personal at putting her down so quit your high-and-mighty BS and stop being an ass. Everyone can see that you're just trying to cause trouble but pretending to an angel.

Sigh. You guys just can't play nice, can you? I deleted a bunch of posts. Please try to be at least civil.

Well Cheryl,

SHE started it!
Harummpphh!
ha-ha-ha....

holdserve
, 7/29/11 12:47 AM

Thanks for the link, holdserve.......................beautiful article about a beautiful person

rafaisthebest, you are welcome. I feel the article is written by a true Rafa fan.

@ sosueme and luckystar re your comments dated 7/28/11

I couldnt have put it better myself! For sure Andy Murray will win a slam, and when he does all us Scots will be having a party!

+1 @nadline & Swiss Rolls

Little late, but still hilarious....

UK Vanity Fair August, 2011 edition:

On page 124 there is an interview with Jerry Lewis and here's a part which had me in stitches:

VF Question to JL: What do you consider your greatest achievement?

JL answer: Losing to Nadal 6-0, 6-0

I knew you had greatness in ya, Jerry..................love the sportsman company you keep.................!!!

Cheryl........................must be clear to you we need another blog on Rafa...........jeez......................we're reduced to talking about Rafa on Nole's blog!

^^ No we don't.

No, nor one about Rog either! Let's have one about Gulbis, Dolgopolov and Granollers. We need a change of diet!

Yes you need a change of diet, deucey.....................look what a lack of incessant blogging about Rafa has done for your waist!!!!

Admit it.................you love our cute Rafito!!

rafaisthebest.....;)

Well, I guess , Sosueme is a disgrace and he continuously writes ugly things

"Oh Nadline, You know I would worry for you if I cared because the end shall eventually come for Rafa (probably sooner rather than later) and I wonder what on earth youre going to do then"

I am not sure why any person who is seeing the tennis for years would compare AndyM with Nadal . Nadal is mentally too strong for Andy and will always be in big matches. Murray can have odd wins against him but only a brave man would bet against Rafa when is playing AndyM in a GS Semi-final or a final (to hell with the surface). Don't get me wrong , AndyM will still win Masters on hard courts , but when the Grand Slams will be there , he will never be considered among the top 3 .

People always consider an option of AndyM improving and there could be time he would be dominating just like what Djoker is doing as of now. They never think that these defeats could have an opposite effect on Murray's pysche and he could well fizzle out in the years to come.

I fully agree with Nadline that the only player who could challenge Rafa in next 1-2 years is Djoker and thats what we are seeing now . Djoker has improved mentally and physically to reach to the level he is now.

Stats don't fool anybody and there is an interesting fact that both Federer and Nadal fans would be proud of.

- Rafa had won 10 Grand Slams and the only player who could beat him in GS final till that point was Federer. He had to beat Federer 6 times during his first 6 major victories.



Federer had won 15 Grand Slams and the only player who could beat him in GS final till that point was Rafa.

Er I'm not sure we are only talking about the next two years. Don't forget Murray joined the tours only in 2005, and he has played about 300 over matches if I'm not wrong, much fewer matches than Rafa with 600+ matches and Nole's 400+ matches. The next two years may be Nole's, thereafter it may be Murray's and then who knows maybe Delpo's. It might as well work out this way, so that these top few guys each has a chance to be no.1. Rafa's time as no.1 may be over; he already has 102 weeks as no.1, it's considered respectable in my opinion. I think going forward we won't be seeing Fedlike dominance at the top of the game so two years as no.1 to me is already an achievement. I see the other three guys-Nole, Murray, Delpo- each has a chance to be no.1 for one to two years in the future, may be more of course.

Anything could be possible !!! If Murray and Delpo had to dominate, then they need to dominate in the next 2-3 years . Very few dominations have begun after the age of 26.

Morever, nobody can say that in sports , if you started early, then you will also fade away earlier than the people who did not start that early. Fitness levels have improved these days. Just take the example of another sport , cricket , in which Sachin Tendulkar , the guy who has got the most number of runs is still playing at the age of 38 and he started at 17, whereas most of the cricketers who start their careers in early 20's , play till they get to the age of 36-37 .

There are alway exceptions and you never know, given the love that Rafa has for the game of tennis, we might see him playing till the age that nobody could imagine right now. People were writing hm off in 2009 but he has silenced his critics big time.

Let AndyM win something first and then we can have this debate as to how he can consistently dominate men's tour. British media needs to be careful with AndyM. He is a much much better player than Henman and should not put him under undue pressure by pinning false hopes on him. Tim would never have won anything so one can't say British media was a factor in that case but AndyM has the potential .

SoShootMe, the she-wolf, lied about Rafa being her 2nd favourite - load of bull crap to try to justify some lame statements. Now wait for the claws to come out with full force.

What more can you say about Sosueme. One of Andy's fans left this forum because of his posts when he questioned his/her following of AndyM. Looks like somebody has thrown drowning Sosueme both ends of the rope and he is perplexed.

of the rope

victor, I've been posting here for over 2 years and I'd never seen this person "iloveAndy" be4 ever. In fact s/he strongly reminded me of "Gomuzza" who was no Andy fan at all, but who just pretended to be in order to wind up Rafa fans with his outrageous comments. We all know people play weird games on these sites.

@luckystar, next two years to Nole, Murray thereafter? And who knows, maybe Delpo? LOL.

I totally agree with Fedexal except for the point about Tendulkar. Cricket isn't the kind of game where your fitness levels have to be exceptional like tennis - I swear most players from the subcontinent have beer bellies. It just isn't as physical and players like Tendulkar have partially benefitted from placid pitches on offer nowadays. Im not sure they'd be playing hat long if English conditions were more the norm. Not to take anything away from him, he is one of the greatest - but its apples and oranges.

And also in tennis, the only modern times player who was Tendulkar-like was Agassi, who benefitted a lot from the transitional era.

Talking cricket are we :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :):) :)

@deuce re comment 8/2/11
For sure I dont know much about Tennis, I dont pretend to, but I do enjoy reading the different comments and opinions. As you say though its very easy for one person to post under different user names and people do play weird games on these sites particularly when they have anonimity. I think Andy Murrray needs to hire a fulltime coach asap as his game would benefit dramaticaly.

Hey mojo, another Andy fan! Welcome, the more the merrier as we are few and far between here on this site!
Dunno if Andy needs a sports psychologist or a coach to be honest. However, I think Cahill has done a gr8 job in a very short time and at the moment Andy is said to be working with him and the Swedish coach, whose name escapes me but he was in Andy's corner at Wimbledon. So I have gr8 hopes that that last final psychological hurdle will be leapt over pretty soon!

Being no.1 doesn't mean that one has to dominate. We are so used to Fed being no.1 and dominated the whole field, that now when we talk about someone being no.1, that player has to dominate. The no.1 and no.2 players may have a difference of less than 1,000 or even 100 ranking points!

Fed was no.1 in 2009 but he was about 1,325 points more than the no.2 player Nadal. Fed wasn't dominant in 2009, he won only four titles, of course two of which being the slams. If Murray and Delpo reached their peak within the next two years, who knows the four slams may be shared among the four guys Rafa, Nole, Murray and Delpo; so who will be no.1 will depend on how they fare at the Masters and the smaller events. If no one can dominate at the slams, then the no.1 player may end up not dominating the field but just manages to edge out a lead over the no.2 man. The no.1 ranking may then change hands more frequently than during Fed's or Rafa's time. We are yet to see how dominant Nole will become, not forgetting Murray and Delpo are also maturing and reaching their prime/peak soon.

I've been away for a few days and surprised that the Rafa is over and it's time for AndyM and Delpo debate is still going strong. What can I say, not a lot more than I've said already, in case I risk sounding as if I'm against Andy, I'm just firmly in Rafa's corner.

AndyM seems to always do well in the autumn and that's usually Rafa's down time. In the past Rafa was usually tired the 2nd half of the season but that's because he didn't take the whole of July off as he used to play Hamburg etc. and when he does take July off he needs time to get his rythm back so he could be vulnerable at this time of the year, he also used to suffer from his cronic knee tendinitis but they seem to have found the answer to his knees.

We shall see.

Can't wait to see Rafa playing again, roll on Montreal.

@deuce.
Here`s hoping! I just think AndyM has such great potential.

I think Jimmy Connors has the longest career among the players in the open era. He played till age 39 I think and had won eight slams. Fed said that he may want to play till age 35, but I think it all depends on whether he's still competitve to carry on playing till that age. Fed may be more more like Sampras than Agassi to me, ie he may be waiting to win his last slam before calling it quit, rather than playing on and fading in the sunset without winning anything major in the process. Well that's just my opinion and I may be wrong about Fed of course.

Regarding Rafa, I've a feeling that if he feels he can't win anymore, ie not competitive anymore, he may quit. I think unlike Borg, Rafa is not too concern of the no.1 ranking as long as he can still win slams. Given his injury history, I think he won't be competing till his thirties.

The tennis sports is getting very physical these days and it may make it harder for players to play till their thirties and still remain competitive. Like I said, we may not see Fedlike dominance anymore, especially when competition is so keen these days and to me the current crop of top players are very close in their level of play, talent, physical abilities and most importantly their ambition to be the best and work very hard towards reaching that goal.

@deuce, are all the smiles because of what I think you're trying to imply? :D

I'm not one of those who thinks Rafa is over, in fact, if anyone asked me who I'd place my bets on for next no.1 - it would be Rafa.

I think both Roger and Rafa will play till that age where they think that they are good enough to win Majors . Even one should say that Agassi was very good till 2005 US Open(where he reached the finals and lost a very close 4 setter against Federer in his prime) and he called it a day in 2006 pretty much similar to Pete even though one always claims that Sampras retired on high .

Coming back to to the present, I think US Open 2011 could well decide upon who is going to rule the roost in the coming years . Would be interesting if the top 4 reach the SF again . One thing is for sure Djoker will be hard to beat and somebody will have to play a great match to upstage him.

Also, I would like AndM to show some guts in the US open. Much has been talked about this being his favorite surface. However, his Open results have been decent but he is last two years losses suggest he is vulnerable in early rounds. He has just reached one Open QF till now and thats not too great. Its OK winning some Masters Series on HC but that is a best of three affair and thats where his fitness is not tested . This US Open could turn out to be make or break for AndyM.

Also, it would be interesting to see how Fedal react to Djoker's dominance . I am sure they would be raring to go .

To me Murray is better at the slower hard courts of the AO (his results confirmed this), it's only that Murray likes the USO and said that it's his favorite slam. Murray can also play well on grass, he won two titles at Queens, it's just that he's not good enough against Rafa on grass. The fact that he can reach three consecutive SFs at Wimbledon confirms that he's good on grass. He has not played against Fed and Nole on grass, so who knows if he can avoid Rafa at Wimbledon, he may do better than now.

In the past, Fedal and Nole had also faced defeats after defeats- Fed in 2008; Rafa in 2009 and Nole lost some heart breaking clay court matches to Rafa - but they all came back stronger, why doubt that Murray can't do the same? Remember after Murray's narrow loss to Rafa at the WTF last year, he mentioned that playing matches like that was the purpose of him playing tennis. He enjoys playing tennis at that high level, even when sometimes the match results may not always be in his favor. I'll never doubt Murray's desire to be a great player, and I think deep down he believes one day his talent and hard work may yield the results he desired.

I do not know much about Agassi so I'm not in a good position to comment about him. His USO 2005 final was his last slam final and in 2006 he lost to a young Rafa at Wimbledon. His 2006 was definitely not as good as his 2005, maybe that's the time when he felt there's no chance of him winning, with Fed's dominance and the emergence of Rafa? That's just my guess and I may be wrong though.

Not diverting too much from the original topic, before losing to Rafa in Wimbe 2006 , Andre had announced that 2006 would be his last year on the tour and USO would be his last tournament.

I know about that, victor, USO 2006 being Agassi's last slam of his career. Agassi's last slam victory was at the AO 2003, that year we had four different players winning the four slams. He was still competitive after 2003 but I think he reached only one slam final after that, ie the 2005 USO final. He did reach some Masters finals, I do remember he played against Rafa in the 2005 Montreal Masters.

I think Rog will go on playing till 2012, u bet he wants that Olympic gold!
However, am not sure how far his ego will let him slip down the ranks and continue playing. Anyway, I for one hope he goes out with a bang and not a whimper.

Rafa has joined Twitter. Hear more from the superstar http://twitter.com/#!/RafaelNadal

Can the surge of confidence and motivation which have carried Nole to the pinnacle of his career this year continue or will the fear of failure start to creep in?

For years he was notorious for failing to defend his titles. I think the first time he managed to break that jinx was at Bejiing (2009/2010). So it will be fascinating to see what happens in the coming months - particularly the first half of next year when he has a bunch of titles and buckets of points to defend.

Interestingly, it took four years for both Rafa (who was No.2 from 05-08) and Nole (who was between No.2-4 from 07-11) to overhaul their main rival(s) for the No.1 spot.

Federer briefly snatched No.1 back while Rafa was side-lined by injuries and I think it is quite feasible Rafa could get back to No.1 later next year.

Deuce: I agree Fed will want to try his luck at the London Olympics: as it will be on his beloved grass at Wimbledon it's not beyond the realms of possibility. However I have a hunch Andy could just pull off the win of his life. I would forego the pleasure of seeing Rafa bite another gold medal for that!!!!

I don't think AndyM is going to win FO in his entire lifetime. Considering the enormous pressure that AndyM is put under in Wimbe, I feel that USO and AO are the tournaments where he has a more realistic shot.

Next two GS could well decide where men's tennis is heading.

ed...oo er hope so....the good thing about the Olympics is that ALL the British athletes will be under the spotlight and subjected to loads of pressure. Andy won't be the only Brit in the limelight by a long way, which is what happens at Wimbledon.
BTW much as I like many, many players, don't we all miss the "Big 4" when they're not playing? Of course dear little Tomic hasn't being playing either...;)
Actually, many commentators are now referring to the "Big 3," which can only help Andy, I feel.

I also believe that Rafa can snatch back the no.1 position, maybe next year or so, but I do believe that he won't hold on to it for long, ie the no.1 position may switch hands a few times within a year.

I'm not doubting Rafa or Nole. It all depends on how they fare this coming hard court season. If Nole carries on with his winning ways, he may open up a big gap between him and the no.2 guy, so much so that even if he can't defend all his titles next year, as long as he can retain some and does reasonably well in others, he may still hold on to his lead and not lose his no.1 ranking, even momentarily. For Rafa, if he continues to reach all finals even without winning, come next year, he may be able to capitalize if Nole falters and if he can improve and wins some of those finals he loses this year. I think the race for no.1 is between Nole and Rafa for this and next year, unless the others step it up.

At this point I think Nole has the momentum with him as he's on the rise. Rafa seems a bit slower this year compared to last year. I rewatch his Wimbledon 2010 final and do notice that he was much quicker around the court last year. I don't know this slowing down is temporary or will it continue. He has to think of ways to improve his game, tries to prevent any more injuries and plan his playing schedule carefully, if he wants to win some more important titles and stays competitive.

@ 1.59pm .....commentators are now referring to the "Big 3.... Really? The poor boy is seriously underestimated and it seems fashionable to malign him - partly his own fault because he refuses to pander to the audience and short changes the press (although he has got a lot better in that department recently).

You have to win something to be reckoned as a contender for the tournament. Before the start of this year, it was always about Roger and Rafa. Djoker has earned the respect and he has played consistently throughout this year. Djoker had to upstage Roger and Rafa. If Murray has to win he has to upstage the top 3 . The job does not get any easier.

Murray doesn't deserve to be included in the select few although he's been in the top 4 for a few years due to the fact that he's managed to win a couple of Masters in the fall when Rafa or Roger were either tired or rusty.

"a couple of Masters ...when Rafa or Roger were either tired or rusty" !!!!!!!
How can u be so disrespectful? Andy has 17 tour titles including 6 Masters 1000.
He has earned his no 4 place where he's been rock solid for the past few years.

Murray's total collection of titles is less that Nadal's 18 Masters alone and equal to Federer's 17 Masters so they are not in the same league. Djokovic has earned his place only because of his winning streak this year but he'll have to keep winning to stay alongside Fedal. Fedal is still what it's all about.

Murray is more in the league of Soderling and Berdych, they've made it to a slam final but don't really cut it. Murray has been lucky in meeting an injured or fatigued Nadal en route to his 2 slam finals.

U r talking rubbish! This year alone Andy has made one final and two semis. How many of those have Soderling and Berdych managed this year? I'd also add that Andy's Master's titles far outstrip both of theirs combined.
I don't care that u don't like Andy, but please stop dissing him and get your facts right.

At least we agree that Murray is not in the Fedal league.

deuce,

Soderling has won 4 titles this year.

AndyM has defo earned his number 4 ranking and I dare say there will have been times when he has been defeated due to tiredness or injury. AndyM is a world class player and will be playing after Rafael Nadal has retired as he is and becoming evermore injury prone, I doubt very much if Rafael will be playing into his thirtys.

numero, I'm talking Andy's performance in Slams this year. As far as Masters goes, Soderling has won 1 Masters 1000 and he's 2 years older than Andy. Andy's won 6, I think. I'm not counting 250's as, apart from Queens, Andy doesn't play them any more. As for Berdych, is it 5 titles total? And he's at least a year older than Andy. Please do not diminish Andy by comparing him to these one dimensional players.
tethys @6.12, not at all do I agree with you because, in fact, Andy has out-performed Fed at Slams this year.

NB just checked, Berdych is also two years older than Andy.

deuce, I'm not talking about this year only, I'm talking about their careers; both Roger and Rafa can legitimately be called great but Andy could not be called a great player at the moment, he may or may not become one but until he does it's wrong to put him in the same bracket as Roger and Rafa.

mojo, there are 100 world class players if it comes to that; everyone in the top 100 is a world class player and claims can be made about what players will accomplish in the future so that doesn't mean a lot and you don't know that Murray will play into his 30s he might quit if he goes outside the top 10 which is not impossible. He only lost in the final of the Australian Open and he fell out of love with the game.

@ tethys.
Yeah, but they havent all been in the top four for a sustained amount of time. AndyM falling out of love with the game after the Austrailian Open? He admitted he was dissappointed, who wouldn`t have been, but fell out of love with the game, no.

tethys, of course I'm NOT putting Andy in Roger/Rafa bracket but you put him in Soderling/Berdych bracket and that's just plain wrong!

deuce,

Yes I realized you meant GS afterwards. And I would agree that Andy is a solid #4 and better than Soderling. I think Berdych is way behind the others though.

AndyM was a little lucky with his draws in all three of the GS this year , not taking anything away from his performance . @ deuce even though AndyM has fared better than Roger even though difference is one match , we all know who will be the favorite if they face each other in a GS . AndyM is yet to take a set off Roger in two GS finals they have met and I see a similar kind of result if they happen to face each other third time wherever it might be.

If AndyM fails to win any of the next two Slams, we might see AndyRoddick ahead of him when we talk of Grand Slam victories by the time tow finish their careers :).

Next two slams? By then Murray is only 24 going to 25, does that mean that a 25 yo player has no more chance of winning a slam? To me Murray will have his chances, may not be this year or next but thereafter, when Fed will be above thirty, Rafa will be twenty seven, Nole
may come down a bit from his peak. I think Murray has better chance of winning a slam then than Raonic, Tomic or Dimitrov. If we are talking about winning one slam, then I think Murray has better chances than those youngsters. Of course there's also Delpo but Delpo seems injury prone to me too.

i think its quite disrespectful to suggest that andym can only win a slam if fed is way above thirty, nole is down from his peak etc etc. andy's got it in him to beat the best when they're at their best, im sure he'll do it one day or the other.

I'm wondering why this 'Victor' has such a grudge against Murray and chooses to denegrate his achievements - even wrongly writing off his H2H with Roger as just one match when in fact he has won 8 out of 14 encounters.

And he is more than just a solid No.4 (numero @ 10.32pm). Any player who can consistently go toe-to-toe with the top players of his era over a period of four years is worthy of being called a great world class player - even if he does still lack that elusive GS.

This time last year Djokovic was all but under the radar. Did anybody predict he would go on a winning spree to end all winning sprees? I dont think so. At the moment what we are seeing with Nole is an extraordinary fusion of ambition, motivation and self confidence linked with the killer instinct and will to win which has carried him to a different level.

Andy may yet surprise his detractors.

I don't have anything against AndyM ed251137, I am just citing the truth . 8 out of the 14 encounters, to me he lost the two matches that mattered the most without any fight. AndyM has to start defeating the top 3 players first in GS in best of five set matches.

Also, I did not mention the head to head between Roger and AndyM . I compared the performances of both the players this year and the difference is one match.
Federer 1F, 1 SF and 1QF. AndyM 1F and 2SF, so effectively one match.AndyM can enjoy 20-5 against big players, but as long as those victories don't come in GS, they count for nothing.

Just noticed, there is some bug in the system !!! I am not able to login as "victor" . My commensts are getting posted as crap "fedexal" . What is going on ???

Logged out and logged in again . Its OK now . It shows logged in as victor . Don't know what was the issue previously.

Its again posted with the wrong name . Can somebody look into this . Has anybody faced this problem before...

I'm not being disrespectful to Andy Murray. Please read my posts carefully, I'm the one who said that if Murray reaches his full potential, he'll be my ultimate tennis player. In fact I believe Murray will be a multi-slam winner, given his talent and hard work. It's just that some people here were doubtful of his ability and that's why I said he's able to win at least a slam. I rank him ahead of Delpo and the new batch of youngsters and that's why I said that he's the one able to capitalize on the opportunities, even if he can't win one now. (to me if that happens, that means he has for some reasons not realized his full potential).

When is the Montreal draw out. I hope Rafa gets some relief this time and not have to play the likes of Isner and Karlovic. He's had his fair share of tough draws.

what happened to the url:

http://www.tennistalk.com/en/news/20110803/Djokovic_a_hit_in_A merican_television_appearance

?

When is the Montreal draw out. I hope Rafa gets some relief this time and not have to play the likes of Isner and Karlovic. He's had his fair share of tough draws.
nadline

lol. nice joke.

Meanwhile back on planet earth, the economy crashes round our ears......but the real question is "Who will pay for Nole's new party shoes?"....

bleck, this is no joke. Rafa always gets the toughest draws.

On another subject, on Wednesday, Rafa wrote: ?Last training before traveling to Montreal. I am excited because we have worked hard to prepare the US summer swing.Rafa?

This is what I like to hear, noe of the negative stuff about how impossible it is to do this that or the other.

@rfzr: probably article about his appearance at Leno and Conan

http://youtu.be/2Qi8t9yncR8
http://youtu.be/qh8o7tpuASo

... Conan tube has clipped interview, here is full

http://youtu.be/j9liix_CA48

Okay, I heard that the draw for Montreal will be out tomorrow and now I am back! I see that the lively discussion has continued in my absence. I needed a break. I get so involved with Rafa when he plays and it takes a lot out of me.

nadline,

I see you have taken your fair share of slings and arrows! You hang in there, girl! You are the heart and soul of Rafa fans and I don't know what we would do without your unyielding, fiesty spirit and passionate defense of Rafa! :)

ed,

Good to see you here! I trust that you are trying to keep the peace! :)


deuce,

Hi, dearest! Now we can all look forward to the hard court season and some more great tennis from all our favorites! It should be exciting!

I desperately need to take my mind off this economic nightmare!

Welcome back tennis! I feel as though I haven't seen my wonderful Rafa for ages. It will be great to see him back on a tennis court again. I trust his pesky foot has healed and he is ready to go!

Good luck to all! May we celebrate some brilliant tennis matches ahead!

Welcome back NNY, let the tennis begin.

Our favs have only been away for abou 4/5 weeks and it seems like a lifetime. Two years ago when Rafa missed Wimbledon then turned up in Canada it seems like years and the whole of tennis world was longing to see him play again. I remember Federer quipping that the hype over Rafa's return should be turned down a notch.

I hope Rafa gives us something to cheer about, I'm sure he is psyched up and ready to go - no pressure at all, lol.

Victor/fedexal: my apologies. I misunderstood your comment. But I still consider you are too quick to put Murray down and some of your remarks are unnecessarily harsh.

NNY: Like you I had a long break from TT, largely forced on me by internet connexion problems, and have only recently got back into the swing of things. And, yes, I am still pouring oil on troubled waters from time to time ;-)

NNY, welcome back babe, missed yer!

I don't want to leave anyone out, so here's a shoutout to luckystar, holdserve, jean, and isabeau if she's around, all the Nole fans, Fed fans, everyone!

ed,

You aren't the only one who had computer problems! I had three viruses in about three weeks, one destroyed my windows vista, the second one destroyed my hard drive and fortunately the third one was just your garden variety virus. I got a new tech support person and they changed my anti-virus software and now I have windows 7 and all seems well.

I just felt that I had to get away to clear my mind and take care of myself. I wanted to make sure that my health issues were under control and sometimes it's best to just give it a rest. Now I am healthy, happy, rested and ready to go! I hope the same for Rafa!

Let the games begin! :)

deuce,

I was hoping that you might have recruited some Murray fans by now, so that you don't have to do the heavy lifting!

I missed you, too! :)

Hello NNY, hope you're fine. I hope Rafa is fine too. He had foot tendinitis and I hope by now he's fine. Can't imagine him pounding his injured foot on those hot hard court surfaces during the American summer. Is it really that hot there in the US? I still remember how those three guys - Rafa, Nole, Murray - suffered there at Cincy last year because of the heat and humidity.

Welcome back ed and nny!

Vamos Rafa, no matter what!

I just came back from my vacation to learn that nadline was once again the target of these exFed & so called multiple Nole-Murray-Delpo fans...we all know by now that they would support just about anybody as long as it is against Rafa...

Thank you Nad for being here all the time to defend our idol...you did a great job!!!

And I fully agree with you nadline: it is really nice to see Rafa being optimistic and no negative stuff coming from him. That's exactly what we want our boy to be!

Vamos Nadline & Vamos Rafa!!! :) :) :)

Welcome back Nats. It's like going back to school after the summer holidays - everyone is back.

I just can't help myself defending Rafa, I suppose I don't know how to be a fan of everyone and unfortunately, it seems like being solely a Rafan is a hanging offence.

Anyway I appreciate the encouraging messages from fellow Rafans and I will never tire of defending him. I don't think Rafa is perfect, contrary to popular belief, but his detractors love nothing more than to see his own fans being less than complimentary about him by watering down his achievements up against their idols. Of course they see it as being objective but no fans of other players are ever objective about Rafa, so it doesn't cut both ways.

I don't care what they think of me I know who I am and why I support Rafa, anything they say just floats above my head and I refuse to engage in personal slanging matches.

Not Rafa fan, but I am kind a worried of all this bursts of optimism, preparations etc... rest of tour is preparing under the radar...

chlorostoma,

And a shoutout right back at you! Great to see you here! It's going to great to see the top players in action again!

Isn't being optimistic better than being pessimistic?? I'm sure fans of other players know what their players were doing all this while during the long break. It's not like only Rafa was practising hard while others were lazing around doing nothing. Why the need to question this optimism?

the draw is out! nole+fed in the top half, rafa+murray in the bottom.

Nadal's fan annoying and arrognt always.

always fake of time-out. always annoying. always cheater. really sick

Arrogant. Overrated. Annoying. Arrogant fan. That Nadal

always looks down great past players. arrogant. smug. shame.

always arrogant cheater.

fake time-out. fake take time. too annoying. fake injury. ugly gamesmanship.

no class .

Nadal = most overrated player by arrogant fans



arrogant cheater Nadal

@luckystar: I don't know why... from whole tour, I am hearing only him working out, doing hard work, preparing, can't wait start etc... but if you Rafans don't see anything unusual, than others must be pretty shy...

atg, that's because you're not a Rafa fan. FYI, Rafa always update us about his activities, his training etc. This is not the first time he's training hard. He's been doing that since I don't know when. I still remember beginning of last year when Rafa fans were so depressed about his WTF 2009 and the state of his tennis, but he continued to work hard at his game and we soon saw his exploits from the clay season onwards. FYI again, Rafa is always a very positive person, and success or failure, he'll take things in his own stride and continues to work hard. There's nothing not to be optimistic about, considering what he has already achieved in his career. With his abilities, he still can win some slams and finish his career with a good number of slams. He's already among the great now, so anything else he wins are all bonuses. Nobody says he has to be ahead of Fed in the slam counts, Rafa is not obsessed with the 'Goat' title. He's comfortable with the way he is and what he has achieved. It's only some or many of his fans expected a lot out of him, heck, even non fans too, for many expect him to overtake Fed. Of course some Fed fans don't wish to see Rafa does well enough to overtake Fed and that's understandable.

It's because Rafa is far more popular - among journalists and among tennis fans. Simple as that!

^^^Exactly.

atg, Journalists write about what people want to read and becasue Rafa is so popular they write about him all the time. The tennis world miss him when he is not on tour and any tournament lights up only after Rafa takes to the court. It's just the way it is.

Luckystar
He is not obsessedwith"goat" because he still has 4-5 players ahead of him.

"What more can you say about Sosueme. One of Andy's fans left this forum because of his posts when he questioned his/her following of AndyM. Looks like somebody has thrown drowning Sosueme both ends of the rope and he is perplexed.
of the rope....."

Well, I go away for a while & a seemingly `dead thread` has exploded with all kinds of Tennistalkers posting, including my own personal `favourite` Victor, the self annointed `Master Tennis Pundit` and TennisTalk accreditor!
But I must ask you Victor,
What ARE you actually going ON about in the above statement!?
Do you not realise, how illogical and silly you sound with such a post?
The only `perplexed` individual here is yourself, judging from your increasingly ridiculous and flakey posts.
Oh & as for the mysterious `Iluvandy`you persistently accuse me of driving away (Boo-Hoo!)?
I remember her!
Yes!
She was the Andy Murray fan that surprisingly came to your rescue the first time we argued, despite your crass attempts at denigrating Andy & his fans.
Well, we BOTH know that Iluvandy & Rafaisbes (not the dear RafaisbesT) were fake accounts set up for nefarious purposes by people not smart enough to stand their ground & debate on their own, so therefore create imaginary friends instead to support their dim, desperate & anxiety ridden posts in the vain hope of success.
Textbook trolling really.
The real question is of-course???.by whom?
Any Ideas Victor?
Ha-ha-ha!

"Victor/fedexal: my apologies. I misunderstood your comment. But I still consider you are too quick to put Murray down and some of your remarks are unnecessarily harsh.."

Why apologise to such characters ed?!?
Look, there are fans of players that are SO extreme that any kind of rational discourse about their beloved is always going to be construed as a heresy.
They also usually hate and fear (& smear) any other potential threat (Say Poor Andy Murray, one of the nicest guys on the tour) to said Idol, although more often than not they are too immature, stupid or simply not big enough to recognise this and own that fear & hate and so Conversely & hypocritically offer fake sympathy & advice (unsolicited) about how said threat could maybe improve his game blah blah etc, when that?s the last thing they want.
Really, apologies are not required in this instance?..

You are taking up valuable space with your moronic babbling. Shut up and get lost!

No & No to both requests!

Did I touch a nerve Jean?
I meant to of-course...

Really? Well thanks for the information. You will need to try harder in your next teenage anger venting attempt. Good luck! You should have more time on your hands now that your supposed favourite is out though I know for a fact that you are not a Murray fan because a nice guy like him would never attract a wolf like you! Nice try though...

Jean,
Ha Project Much!!!
Honestly, I was hoping for your sake you were still in school!
You are singularly the most negative and angry little ball of spite on this blog,
You have nothing constructive to say at all, but instead just sit and wait
for someone to attack.
And then run away again like the coward you are!
You need to get out more dear, have more positive relationships beyond your internet ranting & ludicrous oversensitivity about Rafa.
Your are the most pointless `Nadal Fan` I have ever seen on TT.
Bar our little Multiple personality Friend.
But then he should be Hospital.

Did I touch a nerve Sosueme?
I meant to of-course...

OOOOhh!
WOW!
You're so GOOD at this jean,
Still you need to get a life, & then I think youll be better... but until then.
I'll be waiting for you like you wait for others here.

SO curious to find out who Nole's R1 opponent is...