I am sure there are some good fans out there too but the overall behaviour of the french crowd is almost painful now , especially when they behave like this after a champion like rafa wins. Dont know what is their problem ! they should be pleased and honor to be able to witness perhaps the greatest player in the history of roland garros ! :S I hope rafa BANGS another title right at their faces

I think it's high time that someone called the RG crowd on their appalling behavior. They have no appreciation or respect for the sport of tennis. I just finished watching my recording of the match, but didn't know about the crowd Suzanne Lenglen stadium actually booing the result.

There are no excuses for this kind of behavior. These people are not true fans of the sport. They are truly low class, despicable boorish pseudo-fans who know nothing about appreciating a great match and a courageous comeback from the greatest clay court player of our time.

I am grateful that someone finally did write a blog about just how low these fans can get and how it is a blight on the sport.

cheryl,

You must have watched Daren Cahil say that on ESPN2 as well. The people are entitled to their opinion.

I'm not French yet I would have booed too. Might try to make it to Austin for Davis Cup in fact to do a lot of it. There are many things about Rafa that many people don't like. I've discussed them ad nauseum so I won't bring them up again but it has nothing to do with him winning too much.

Just because you love him doesn't mean that everybody should. I think 80% of his fans are women anyway so I'm not sure his tennis is even a factor why most of them love him.

Numero, first by your logic every commentator that has every commented on how disgusting the French crowd treatment of Nadal is must be a Nadal fan. Including Darren Cahill, Patrick McEnroe, Mary Carillo, John McEnroe and every other US commentator.

I mean, I suppose they could all be Nadal fans....or is it just possible that the French crowd truly is being low rent and nasty.

In addition, going by your logic, Nadal would be treated like that where ever he goes. He isn't. It's only the French who are vile to him and it IS because he wins there all the time. Guy Forget has said as much.

Lastly, I would be equally incensed if it were Roddick or Federer or any other player. It's just flat-out nasty.

cheryl,

That's where we disagree though. You think they boo Rafa because he's won there 5 times. I think it's all the other things that make Rafa Rafa.

I don't think they would boo Tommy Robredo had he won there 5 times for example. I specifically used a Spaniard as an example to illustrate my point.

Numero, i modified my post to make my meaning more clear. If what you say were true and nadal were so unlikeable, he would be booed where ever he went. Just the opposite is true however. He is a rockstar everywhere else. The French hate him because he keeps winning their event. period.

btw, I think they WOULD boo Tommy Robredo if he were a 5-time champion. And I give as evidence the fact that they didn't start the booing thing until Nadal had already amassed a good 3 FOs.

Well, I am sorry but that is what I would expect from a Fed fan. They are the ones who are spewed out so much hatred online for Rafa, so why wouldn't they be only too happy to defend the abominable behavior of the French? Not surprising at all.

Well maybe French people are disgusting. I've never been there so can't really say. I saw the way they treated Serena so I think they are racist. You could be right then.

numero - I didn't say or imply that French PEOPLE are disgusting. What I said is that the crowd's treatment of Nadal is disgusting. And I have no clue if it has to do with race. I hope not.

Booing any player is stupid and childish in my book. There are players I don't care for, I would never boo them. No matter how much I might dislike them, I also have to respect them for doing the work and going out there to play.

numero's comments are disgusting and his insinuations are worse. Look at him trying to twist condemnation of crowd behaviour to a racist interpretation.
numero deserves to be booed.

Sad to see people like Nativenewyorker stereotyping ALL Federer fans based on the comments of one person.

The French crowd is awful, although the Madrid crowd is getting up there. I remember the Nadal-Berdych match a few years ago, I've never seen a crowd at a non-Slam behave so disgustingly.

The Madrd crowd is no worse than any Davis Cup crowd. They root for the local boy and maybe boo the outsider. But the behaviour of the French crowd is inexcusable and thoroughly to be condemned.
As for the Madrid incident, Berdych behaved very badly toward the crowd showing them a finger if I remember correctly.

Numero's comments re: women liking Nadal not for his tennis is beyond sexist, as if women don't know anything about tennis.

Cheryl,
You never wrote an article entirely about a crowd, that I remember, but you did write I think or at any rate a lot of us debated here the same appaling behaviour by the RG crowd when they were happy that an injured Nadal fought really hard against an on-fire Soderling and lost in 4 sets. Another crowd might have chosen to show support for Soderling, fine, but their behaviour was that of a bully, i.e. vile, insensitive and cowardly. Bullies are all cowards.

The reasons for today's behaviour are the same as the other years. If I'm right about them they are... one the one hand the overlty given reasons (e.g. those written about by some French journalists or by bloggers), e.g. the big biceps, the physical style (ie not elegant) and so on... all these some of those fans may actually believe... on the other hand the real reasons beneath the behaviour. I am sure that some of those journalists and some of those fans know clearly for themselves what they are and even feel comfortable about them ... and I am sure that the remaining fans do not know that these are the actual reasons, no matter the rationalizations. And here are the two main true underlying reasons: 1) they had embraced Federer as a great champion and when Nadal kept defeating him at RG and not only there they took more and more offense... in this they are not unique except that (some/many) of the French (especially Parisians) being what they are they will not censure their behaviour in a tennis court, even if the behaviour is appaling. And I say this as someone, as I wrote here two years ago, who grew up loving the French culture (growing up in Belgium) and travelled to France many many times. This character of the French I have observed and discussed many times with my relatives from Paris and with other French people and they all viewed it the same way, about their own people. And reason number 2 you have mentioned as perhaps an excuse.. but it is not an excuse, it is just as fundamental: Nadal is Spanish. If he had not been winning a lot over the years, and not much while defeating Federer, then his being Spanish would not bring all that much vitriol. But as he has it does. I've witnessed this often enough in the French media, the way they use very different lenses to judge themselves vs other nations, and especially the Spanish nation. The animosity goes back centuries. The thinly disguised strong distortion of facts when commentating on soccer games between French and Spanish teams is an example. There are cultures who nowadays would never distort facts that much, but a good number of French will. I still love to go on vacations to France and still do with my wife, even though for many years this means a vacation over the ocean... and we've come across many kinds of French people in different parts of the country. Having said that the consistenly appaling behaviour towards Nadal of a good portion of the RG crowd does NOT surprise me one bit. Even though I find it disgusting. And I would no matter against whom they would direct it - so the fact I am a Nadal fan does not have to do with it. If they behaved 20% as bad against any player at all that too would not surprise me. I will tell you what would surprise me: if they had behaved 100% this way against Nadal if he had not defeated Federer many times and/or if he was not Spanish.

And the Spanish thing... is not a racist thing. It is a nation, chauvinistic thing, baggage from centuries of war ... and especially of an air of superiority that some nations in Europe (and elsewhere for that matter) feel. The French are not the only ones. But it is the French from whom I expect that to come out in this kind of overt behaviour. Others will not let it show as well. All the bullying in the world, and all the airs of superiority both make me laugh, sadly, for they are in the end but forms of cowardliness and some kind of compensation for some kind of insecurity... in this Adler was always right. In France it is especially in Paris that you will find all kinds of highly refined elements of culture, on so many planes of their lives... and at the same time it is where the most boorish behaviour of France can be found in equal measure, as a number of Parisians and non-Parisian French have agreed with me.

Sorry for being so long-winded. In a word: Nadal should have known better than to play his best each time he faced Federer. It was not considerate. Or to dare play his best so often given that he is Spanish. That too was not considerate.

Thank you Cheryl for pointing this out - I agree with you totally and for this reason I have been to the Australian Open, Wimbledon and US Open, but I have no interest whatsoever in going to Roland Garros.

chloro, I don't think it's because he beat Fed so many times on RG.

Maybe Rafa's style just rubs them the wrong way. Not everyone can watch Rafa and like him instantly. Sometimes he over-celebrates points and wastes time.

Some people may overlook these things and realizes that he is a true champion but some people just don't like it when they see it.

But yeah, Rafa did not deserve to get booed

holdserve, berdych did not show the crowd his middle finger (if you refer to the incident i'm thinking of). he put his index finger to his lips to ask them to keep quiet (or lower their noise level, whatever) because they were too loud and presumably distracting him.

cate,

I don't need to stereotype Fed fans. They have done it themselves. Have you been reading this site for the past few days? The hate towards Rafa and his fans is positively beyond anything I have ever experienced. Yes, there are a some reasonable Fed fans and they deserve credit for being fair and respectful.

Unfortunately, most Fed fans do not fall in that category. I have tried to reach out and find common ground and all too often, have learned the hard way that it will not happen. There are rabid Fed fans who dearly hope that Rafa will never win again, so that Fed's legacy will not be threatened. They will love anyone who boos Rafa or disrespects him or hates him in any way.

Tennis has always been a gentleman's sport. Too bad the French don't know what that means.

Please all of you, think logically! Who are those watching the Sod/Harrison match at SL court?Mostly Americans I believe. So once they learnt of Isner's loss, they started booing. To me they boo Isner for the loss and not Rafa for the win. Why blame it on the French yet again?!

Those spectators at PC court didn't boo Rafa for the win, did they? Why jump into conclusion about the French not liking Rafa? And talk so personally as if Rafa is good for nothing and everyone will hate him! Please, stop projecting your own hate or dislike onto others as if all others have to feel the same way about Rafa. In fact many people on earth love Rafa, for being such a nice human being and such a hardworking and worthy champion! And stop blaming the French for booing, they boo everyone who challenges the line call, even their beloved Fed.

"If what you say were true and nadal were so unlikeable, he would be booed where ever he went. Just the opposite is true however. He is a rockstar everywhere else. The French hate him because he keeps winning their event. period."

^^^^ THAT. Great point by C-Muzz.

Rafa, please win RG for the 6th time and wind the Frenchies up even more!!!!!! And in your victory speech, do not bother speaking a word of French, begin in English and then end up in Spanish!!!

And or.........on the way to the championship, wouldn't it be nice if you played the French #1 player (who the heck is their #1 player anyhow?) and you beat them? (just beat, don't humiliate).

We love you Rafa, you are a great champion.........stay focussed!!!

If Rafa dislikeable why just in RG he teated like that,in wimbledeon 2010 Rafa againts A.Murray,spectators in wimbledon not tearted him like in RG,though Rafa againts them crountryman (Murray) them keep cheering Rafa for outstyanding performan,this too in AO & USO,,only in RG Rafa had booed,,
When Rafa fofr first time won in RG,them nice to Rafa,until Rafa won for 4 times them so meant with Rafa!! Rafa so hard to got victory he didn't desevered treated like that,spectators in franch the most worst spectators whole the world!!

Lucky, you've confirmed my original suspicion that the booers could have been Americans not the French. From what I've seen in videos so far this year, Rafa is mobbed by French fans wherever he goes and as only half the crowd booed let's not just blame it on the French.

Does this mean that Cheryl wasn't thinking logically when she wrote this blog, or is that just reserved for those of us who agreed with her?

Rafa got a standing ovation on Phillippe Chartrier at the end of the match, so it was almost certainly the Americans who booed on S.L because they would have liked an upset by Isner.

Wow..actually it makes sense that it was the Americans who booed Rafa... We haveno evidence that the booing came from the same crowd that cheered for Sod when he beat Rafa so is is very possible although I doubt anyone here could prove it.

I don't think that nationality has anything to do with it. French are very specific regarding that, and there will be always animosity toward all neighbor countries. Spain is no other than UK, Germany or Italy... and US (freedom fries) even more than all of them...

I don't think it is just because Rafa keeps winning, on contrary I believe he has more support as he is writing RG history and everybody likes to be part of history.

I think that more than everything it was fact it was 1st round... it would be the greatest upset of all times... it would be huge win for the guy who played longest match in history, to take out Rafa in 5 sets... undecided crowd like weaker opponents, they are empathic toward them and gain sympathies... Looking just to score line it was roller coaster 1-0, 1-2, 3-2 which was pretty harsh for Isner... and having watching just score, only exciting would be to see Rafa down... everything other than that isn't worth of mentioning...

I wouldn't give to this bigger meaning than it is... I haven't watched match with boo-crowd, but it think it was just collective disappointing "Oooouchhhh" than boo... Giving to this more credibility makes it bigger and will go toward hostility toward Rafa. But as great and humble he is, I believe he will handle this with ease and grace. Younger Novak would make chaos about this, Roger will dig himself deeper with his arrogance, but Rafa is immune on this.

However I do feel some Rafa fanaticism in those happenings... Rafa is great, he is playing great, he is synonym for sportsmanship, he is humble, human etc... But that doesn't make whole world cheering for him and wanting him to win. I don't think there is always clear winner in any 5 setter and it wouldn't be undeserved for Isner to win...

Anyway, if Rafa wins RG I am sure that he won't be booed.

I'm not saying anyone blaming the French are being illogical. Of course there are always some French who don't like Rafa. All I'm saying is there are many Americans at the Sod/Harrison match (I believe as one American is playing there) and who knows they were looking for Isner, an American, to cause an upset. On hearing that Isner lost, they just booed him. If it's the French who disliked Rafa and wanted to boo him, why only at the SL court and not at the main PC court where the match was played? I believe too that those Americans who were at the PC court and saw the match, won't end up booing either player as they saw how well both players play. It's not like Isner played badly and lost, but Rafa played brillantly in the last two sets and won, nothing to be 'booed' about.

I think 80% of his fans are women anyway so I'm not sure his tennis is even a factor why most of them love him.

numero , 5/25/11 1:27 AM


Why do you think that, have you ever done a survey or you are just jumping to a conclusion that you think fits his image because YOU think he's got sex appeal?

I suppose it's possible that there were some Americans in the Lenglen crowd...but are you guys really suggesting that HALF the crowd was American? That would be like saying if Gael Monfils were playing on Louis Armstrong stadium, half that crowd would be French. There aren't that many americans in Paris. And the ones that were almost certainly would choose to watch ISNER over Harrison. The people watching the Soderling match were there because they didn't have tickets to Chatrier.

Also, Americans don't boo Rafael Nadal. Never had, never will. An entire stadium of Americans wouldn't boo him even if he beat Andy Roddick. Sorry, but that's just a bad argument.

atg - Darren Cahill was very clear that they were booing. He isn't one to exaggerate.

When Rafa was serving in the last set towards the end a fan heckled him
So disprespectful !!
I have attended the French Open in 2008 and I must say I found my 10 days a nightmare there with the impolited ground staff/ ticket booth staff and crowd
The crowd push and shove through the line ups and show no respect You MUST speak their laungage as any attempt to speak French gives them fits of laughter
The defending champions should be on the very first day first match defending female second match defending male !!( In my view )Not day 3 as Nadal was yesterday and Federer was on the second court today That is not on either

Well Cheryl, we can only guess as none of us know for sure who were those booing and who they boo, Rafa or Isner. I don't wish to jump to conclusion but just offer one possibility. It may be that various groups of spectators boo for different reasons too!

Anyway, the crowd at RG love to boo or whistle at whoever challenges the line calls, regardless of whether you're Fed or Rafa or Monfils. They also booed Sharapova off the court one year. I think I like the Wimbledon spectators best, followed by the AO, USO. I seriously don't like the FO. If not for Rafa, I'm really thinking of skipping the FO and wait for Queens and Wimbledon to come. So, most probably after Rafa quit the sport, I'll stop watching the FO. I really don't like spectators booing players off the court, really boorish behavior.

luckystar, you bring up a good point that Rafa isn't the only person they boo. They used to treat Serena Williams abysmally. I wasn't a writer then though. ;)

The French crowd didn't treat Serena any worse than Justine Henin did!!!!!!!!!!!

That was despicable by Henin and I never liked her after that. One of the more outrageous things I've seen in tennis, I must say.

^^ wait what? what did she do?

Why do you think that, have you ever done a survey or you are just jumping to a conclusion that you think fits his image because YOU think he's got sex appeal?
nadline
, 5/25/11 1:20 PM

It must have nothing to do with your comments after his underwear shoot and many other of your girl friends here. ;)

mriiidula - I don't remember what year it was. Early 2000s I think when Serena was winning everything under the sun. Justine won the first set, serena the second then right at the beginning of third, Justine put her hand up to Serena, indicating that she wasn't ready to receive serve, but Serena was already in her service motion and the ball went into the net.

The chair umpire (somehow) didn't see Justine motion to wait. So he indicates a second serve. Serena points to Justine and says "she told me to wait", but justine wouldn't admit to it. It was a flat-out lie and a cheat. Everyone saw her do it.

So then the crowd starts in on Serena. It might have been the single ugliest display of fan bullying I've ever seen...and that includes watching Lleyton Hewitt play Davis Cup in Argentina.

They booed Serena at literally every point. They booed during her service motion, they cheered wildly at every missed first serve or error. I can't be sure, but I think she might have been in tears a couple of times.

Ricky, did I get the highlights right? It was a long time ago.

My point is that boos on that match was spontaneous... not that is was planned, that was pointed to Rafa, or Isner, or result, or whatever. Crowd behavior is unpredictable to some extent, and I would be amazed that this is result of any hostility toward Rafa.

However, if this become topic and "Hot News", there will be lost exhibitionists who will find out their purpose to provoke Rafa. They ultimate goal would be to affect and raise crowd toward their goal. There are always some guys, hungry for attention, yelling in pauses, hoping that they will get spontaneous laugh or any reaction from mass. Now I am afraid that some of them would try to get boos, as it will become trendy... And trust me, crowd behavior have intelligence of three year old kid, it easily gets manipulated. There is difference in crowds among all GS, but I think RG is less tennis oriented and more incident prone but even that will be less obvious toward finals where hopefully true tennis fans will prevail.

atg - we'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter....though you're right when you say that crowd behaviour is often childish. Sports seems to bring out the worst in people sometimes.

i'm too lazy to check but i think it was 2003 cheryl - that incident. you got it right. you can actually search for yutube vidoes on that incident, i've seen a few. henin definitely attracted a lot of hatred after that little stunt, even from fans who didn't like serena :)

@cherylmurray,

do you know what was match summary of 90% spectators on that Serena/Henin match? "It was hilarious, we were booooing each Serena move, it was fun", the other 10% will know results and remember some great shots.

But Serena was little bit booed before incident. Actually what was meltdown point prior to "hand incident", was Justine call for out, when umpire dismissed that. Umpire was right, it was out, Justine was wrong, but booing didn't even stopped during serve when Henin raised hand. That was classic example how something can be exaggerated out of any logic when it comes to crowd behavior.

But for Serena someone might say she "deserved" it with her arrogance and attitude on/off court. Nadal is complete opposite and it is hardly believe he can contribute any way to become boo target. We will see on next match, but I am confident that booes won't repeat and that was combination of various circumstances. If you are right, than Rafa will be booed trough whole RG.

Come on guys, its dirt all over there, the crowd somewhat had to be dirty at RG as if to do something else than they do on the other side of the channel.

Missed that great contest because some bloke shut down the power plant to change circuit breakers, the same guy did it again today and I missed the match of Federer. Must mess with him tomorrow in the morning meeting.

cheryl: thanks for the explanation, i've always thought henin was a very fair player. maybe she admitted it but since the umpire didnt see it he didnt believe her?

Henin fair? No chance. And her press conferences were quite bad too - one of those players who rarely gave credit to the opponent.

sorry, mriiidula. It was clear cheating. In her presser, Henin said, "I wasn't ready for the serve. It's the chair umpire's job to sort all of that out. Not mine." It was dirty and foul.

never liked Henin... reminds me on some role-play rogue characters... when start coming toward net, at the moment I start thinking it is Volleyball net if she approach little bit more... so unreal small and cruel... despite results... I hardly find anything I could love about her...

:( well thats quite sad then. i've always liked henin because she's so powerful for such a small person, you'd always think someone would overpower her but not many could.

A lot of rationalisations in this thread...

The facts remain that a) Parisians - many of them - are often very rude in all kinds of circumstances, b) the RG crowd boos players unjustly much more than other crowds tend to do, c) the RG have booed unjustly specifically certain players, and Nadal in particular, d) they have not been supportive of Nadal from when he started to defeat Federer repeatedly and even as he started to make more and more history at RG itself, e) the fact that they do not boo Nadal at each of his matches does not take away their appaling and unjustified behaviour against him at enough of his matches at RG, f) it is just not true that they boo because he picks his pants, or rearranges his bottles obsessively or takes longer to set up serves than most players... those are just not the reasons... I still maintain the main reason is that he simultaneously has been the one preventing Federer to win a career slam for 4 / 5 years in a row and did so as a Spaniard... Spain being the neighbouring country they have the most animosity towards I believe (even more than Germany as far as I can tell, 1870, WWI and WWII notwithstanding).

I happen to speak French very fluently from having gone to school in Belgium and using (Parisian) French professionally in Toronto. Typical reaction when I speak with Parisians in Paris? I've gotten this many times: as I have a slight yet almost Parisian accent they tell me: but you speak French so well, their voice dripping with the back-handed compliment, meaning: how is it that you do master our difficult language so, foreigner who was not born on hallowed French soil in a hallowed French family? It makes me smile. I offer this as an example of many vignettes you could write an entire blog about. In fact a very witty American who has said up a high quality and successful pastry shop in Paris years ago does just that. In the comments sections dozens of immigrants from English speaking countries who live in Paris chime in and agree to the veracity of stories you would swear were fabricated if you have not had your own lived examples from the City of Light. Don't get me wrong: I still love Paris, and the rest of France, and when there I meet many people that are delightful... but at the same time the common attitude of the French towards each other and much more towards every one else, especially those not born in France is just that: rude and condescending. Their wonderful and celebrated late singer George Brassens wrote a song about it decades ago: La ballade des gens qui sont nes quelque part. The ballad of the people who were born somewhere. (People who are so proud to have been born in the particular place they were born. We were vacationing in Paris in September 2001. The evening after the attacks of the eleventh the paris TV was sympathetic to those who died and their loved ones. Come the next night, Wednesday night the tone of the commentaries was already shifting towards the Americans had it coming, we are better at security, and: the prime minister and the minister of defense of 1994 came on TV to boast they would have not hesitate to scramble and shoot down the hijacked Algerian plane full of passengers had they not been able to storm it successfully at the Marseille airport. I listened to that and thought it was easy to boast afterward of what you might have done but if you had to actually have to give the order it might have gone differently.

Sorry once more for the ramble. I continue to have a love-hate relationship to the French and their personalities/ behaviours. But I have no doubt in my mind that it is their very common self-righteousness and rudeness that makes their RG crowd treat Nadal badly over the years because... what he prevented Federer to win and because he is Spanish.

Federer basically sticks it to the French by dissing clay. Says you don't need a complete game to win. Don't need a great serve or volley, etc. Clearly favors all the other three Slams. Yet the crowd loves him.

Nadal says RG is the greatest tournament in the world and they boo him.

Go figure.

For those of you who believe that it was the Americans booing bcos Isner had lost to Rafa....................well how comes they never booed when Harrison lost to Sod?!!

Its all HOGWASH!!!!!!

VAMOS Rafa!!..............when you win I hope you speak in Spanish and English........ONLY!!!!..........lol rafaisthebest!!!!

I don't want this to fall into a gripe session about ALL French people. I met some really lovely people in Nice and Monte Carlo that were quite friendly. So keep it above board everyone. Thanks. :)

i dont want to generalise but I have encountered too many French people who were rude, arrogant and downright obnoxious, so much so that France is definitely one of my least favourite countries in Europe

Monalysa, Errrr, Rafa can speak french???

Che-Muzz, yeah, maybe it's not the americans, Sorry, nadline, was agreeing with your theory but che-muzz gave a counter-theory...

I have a theory of my self.

Capital of France: Paris: City of Love: Parisian are romantic people.
Rafa: Nothing romantic about him when it comes to tennis

cheryl,
I agree with you... which is one of the reasons why in my over-long tirades I mentioned that it is not all French, nor all Parisians, and not all the time, not even at all of Rafa's matches. And I mentioned I have met many very nice Parisians and other French people.

The facts remain that the reputation they have among so many French people and non-French people ... in their case... is deserved and realistic.

Instead we could keep it too politically correct and avoid making any generalisations about a "sizeable portion* of the French population. Then we will end up explaning this repeated appaling behaviour towards Nadal with all kinds of non-facts: Nadal's behaviour, it was because he defeated an American, and so on. But in this case only a less politically correct explanation is real.

Well torres, it depends on ure idea of romantic. I see NOTHING romantic about carrying ure bread/bagette under your arm!!!!!

No Rafa cant speak French fluently, but he always tries to say a thing or two in the language of the country he plays in..............he thanked the crowd in french yesterday after his match with Isner!!

And if a non-romantic game wins you matches.....well to hell with romantic!!

The French boo Rafa, a true champion who has the respect of ALL players in the locker-room (including the Sod I kid you not)..............but they have sympathy for Dominique Strauss-Kahn, a documented serial sexual predator, lecher, alleged rapist and all-round low-life...........oh wait, front-runner for the French presidency!!!

'nuff said...........

che-muzz. I like it. :D

You might be onto something there, Torres. Rafa isn't exactly graceful. Still, I have to think that it wouldn't be so bothersome if he didn't keep winning. And it's one thing to not be a fan and another to actively boo someone on a different court. Know what I'm saying?

Rafa: Nothing romantic about him when it comes to tennis
torres9
, 5/25/11 5:26 PM

So says the professor of all things romantic..................you gotta admire some fedfans' ability to fart with confidence..........

You have to remember demonstrating and rioting are in the DNA of the French population. Any excuse will suffice. Where I live they are taught the basics in school! The teaching staff bring kids as young as 7 or 8 out of class and onto the streets chanting and waving placards in support of the whatever the dispute of the day may be regardless of whether or not it is a cause that affects them. No wonder they get out of hand at sporting events.

Their antipathy towards Rafa dates back to 2005 when he beat their beloved Grosjean (before felling Federer in the SF) on his way to winning his first FO title on his maiden appearance there. The Grosjean match was also the occasion of one of the most disgraceful examples of bad crowd behaviour ever seen at a tennis match. Play was held up for a total of 7 minutes while they booed, whistled, and hissed following a disputed line call. What I found most shocking was that it wasn't unruly youngsters but middle-aged, smartly dressed men and women carrying on like warring football hooligans.

That the 18 yr old Rafa maintained his sangfroid through all this was testimony to his maturity and one of the reasons why I have been an avid fan of his ever since.

oh, well, the same discussion happened last year when that controversial ??attacking?? guy was around...he made a comment that French do not deserve a GS and I happened to agree with him...as far as I remember there were people agreeing with us, but many of you attacked our opinion...and it is happening again...what I can not comprehend is that there are some of you who may think Americans boo Rafa?! That is ridiculous!!! They are such objective fans and they cheer even against Roddick if they feel like it...it has nothing to do with Isner losing... It was French crowd, and only them...Didn?t you see the match...they were hardly applauding at Rafa?s winners...and the commentator made excuse saying that crowd is not supporting Rafa because they were hoping Isner would get back into the match and they would watch more of the fight...I see such behavior only on FO...other GSs are pure class...I completely agree with Cheryl on everything she has written in this blog...it is sad but it's true: French partisans just can't handle it, can't stand Rafa wining it all...they are not fans, they are haters...wait and see when Rafa meets Verda...I bet they will cheer for Verdasco hoping Rafa would get bitten...they simply do not deserve champions like Rafa!

And I do not want to generalize things and to accuse all French people...but for me the crowd that comes to watch great champions represent French people and at least what they could do is show RESPECT and APPRECIATION for those great athletes and for the heart they bring to the court...don?t give me that stupid story about Rafa not being liked for this and that...I don?t like when Rafa loses to someone and does that make me eligible to boo the opponent?! NO! They have lost the right to be called fans...those who are booing are simply retards...and it is such a shame that they are so blind to see the history being written right in front of them and they happen to be the lucky witnesses who still do not how to appreciate it...LOSERS!!!

Rafa has marked tennis history in France and they will have to live with it like it or not! VAMOS RAFA!!!

Anyway, Rafa is used to this bad treatment and being the champion that he is, he isn't wasting time just feeling sorry for himself or finding fault with the French fans. After having expressed how hurt he was, he is taking the positive approach of trying to win them over by speaking french to show that he cares for them. Sooner or later, he expects the crowd to be positive. And whether they like it or not, his name is inalienably linked forever to their slam as one of the greatest of the champions.

Natashao, I agree with you completely. The crowd's behaviour was just despicable which reflects badly on all French people, especially if you compare those retards with the much more civilised and better-behaved fans at the Australian Open, Wimbledon and US Open

The fans at USO aren't as civilized as the fans at W or AO.

Errr, to Rafa fans who thought I was offending Rafa by saying he's not romantic in tennis, well, it's not an insult, it's just the way he plays.

It's brutal and may be sexy at the same time. But it's definitely not romantic. I'm sure he's a romantic lover, a romantic son, a romantic idol.

Just maybe the way he plays is unromantic, and this may not please the romantic Parisian.

All in all, we can only guess why they boo Rafa.

Them and only them knows exactly why they hate him. And yeah Che-Muzz, if he didn't win as much, he wouldn't have got booed.

Cheryl was right in pointing out that Americans would not boo Rafa. They love him. I also do not agree that Suzanne Lenglen court was chock full of Americans. There would still be more French people in attendance. This is their slam event.

It's really simple. The French wanted Rafa to be defeated in the first round. They don't want him winning anymore. I also don't lump all French people in with the people at this event who have treated Rafa so disgracefully over the years.

That display during Rafa's fourth round match with Sod in 2009 is something that I will never forget or forgive. Even Uncle Toni felt compelled to speak up about it after the match, and I don't remember him ever saying anything about the fans at RG. It was inexcusable.

If people like numero and other Fed fans feel that the French crowd was justified in booing Rafa, it is only because these guys have made it their mission to boo Rafa and can fully identify with the Parisian crowd. The reason in both cases is the same. Their love for Federer and hatred toward this guy who singlehandedly prevented Fed from winning the French so many times.
The American fans are much better though they are not as good as W fans or even AO fans ( possibly because America is very much an immigrant nation and the best and worst of many nationalities are gathered here). They never booed Fed although he kept trouncing their only champion viz Roddick on all surfaces.

"cate,

I don't need to stereotype Fed fans. They have done it themselves. Have you been reading this site for the past few days? The hate towards Rafa and his fans is positively beyond anything I have ever experienced. Yes, there are a some reasonable Fed fans and they deserve credit for being fair and respectful.

Unfortunately, most Fed fans do not fall in that category. I have tried to reach out and find common ground and all too often, have learned the hard way that it will not happen. There are rabid Fed fans who dearly hope that Rafa will never win again, so that Fed's legacy will not be threatened. They will love anyone who boos Rafa or disrespects him or hates him in any way.

Nativenewyorker, 5/25/11 7:27 AM"

Sorry for the language, but this is the biggest bunch of bullshit I've ever read. There are disgraceful fans for most of the top players. I've seen nasty Nadal fans just as much as I've seen nasty Federer fans. The fact of the matter is that you only see what you want to see, rather than realizing that both sides have immature, rabid fans. There are Nadal fans who hope Roger will never win again so that Rafa can overtake him to be the best player. They will love anyone who boobs Roger or disrespects him or hates him in anyway. There are Djokovic fans like this, Murray fans, Roddick fans, probably Davydenko, Soderling, Del Potro fans, etc.

And you will likely find that for the most part, this is the small but vocal minority. I don't know what Federer fans you talk to, but the ones I talk to aren't Rafa haters. They might cheer for Rafa when he's not playing Roger because they like him and his personality and work ethic. Likewise, I know plenty of Rafa fans who feel the same about Roger; clearly they want Rafa to win, but they like Roger for his style of tennis or his friendship with Rafa. This isn't like a club football rivalry, this is tennis. You can like and respect both guys. Just because they are rivals doesn't mean you have to hate one to like the other. This kind of thinking is what makes people judge all of a player's fans into these silly stereotypes.

above

one of the best comment i have read on this site...

cate, you do make some good points but what is very noticeable about the actively posting Fed fans is what NNY has pointed out. They do conform to a stereotype.
Federer is almost 30. Saying he should retire now cannot be compared with Fed fans' hopes that Rafa should retire at 24 i.e. at the peak of his prime. Claiming he is in decline because apparently, according to these deluded guys, Rafa peaked early. He did nothing of the sort. He peaked between 22 and 24 which is exactly the age at which Fed and many other great champs peaked.
And what about the persistent doping allegations against Rafa? And not even backed by logic. I can easily make a logical case for Federer but Rafa fans are not so obsessed with alleging doping as Fed fans are. Then the silly on-court coaching thing. I could go on and on. Instead of protesting like this, you should pull up foul mouthed fellow Fed fans so that they do not shame the majority of you.

cate,

The use of that language shows exactly where you are coming from. I will let your characterization of my opinion, which I get to have here, speak for itself. At least I can phrase my comments using decen language. It doesn't take intelligence to use profanity to refute someone's comments.

You just let me know that my comments rang true and struck home. However I won't reply in kind and use similar language to describe your so-called response. If that's all you've got, then that's a sorry excuse for making an argument.

The same goes for chenna 21 who felt the need to support this babble.

I'm just glad to hear that there are others who are as incensed about the french crowd as I am, and the rationalizing that some of you are doing on behalf of that crowd just blows my mind. The crowd was BOOING Rafa. Have been doing just that for a few years now. Maybe it's because he's won to many times, maybe it's because he's Spanish, who knows. One thing I do know is there is never a GOOD reason for behaving that way. There is a reason that in Nadal's recent Q&A when asked about what his favorite tournaments were, he answered Wimbledon and MC. and not that tournament that should be his pride and joy, his own personal slam, the French Open. I can also tell you that Chlorostoma's analysis of the French is spot on. There's plenty to admire about the French culture, but the superiority/inferiority complex is alive and well throughout.

i'm french and i'm ashamed to read this... please, the crowd of RG is not just french crowd, this is crowd from Paris. We have the same problem with crowd of Stade de France, they don't have a good mentality.

Nicely written, Cheryl. I was appalled when Cahill said half the crowd boo-ed. However, I have DVD's of the last 6 Roland Garros tournaments, and it is very clear that the French fans are unkind, to say the least, with Nadal. All the while he compliments them on the their tournament, and gamely says how he appreciates the crowd's support, which even he must know is a stretch at best. I hope he wins about 10 more, and stuffs it in their faces!

I'm sorry to see Justine getting trashed again even though she's retired. Serena and others have accused her of lying but she never lied. The umpire did not ask her what happened and she did not choose to make a statement. I agreed with her because the way I saw it, Serena saw that Justine was not ready and chose to fast-serve her i.e. serve when Justine was not ready. Then when she had a fault she wanted to get two serves. I think the French crowd saw that and became annoyed with Serena. I certainly was annoyed with her and could not see any reason why Justine would want Serena to get two serves after Serena saw her hand up and chose to serve anyway.

As for the horrible behavior of the French towards a great champion like Rafa, it is just sad. I love the French but the fans we see at Roland Garros behave despicably and ought to be ashamed of themselves but it will be a cold day in hell when that happens. As much as I love France I would prefer to attend any other European tournament than Roland Garros. Rafa's gifts are like throwing pearl to swine. They are blinded by nationalism but it is unforgivable to pile on a fine young man who has done nothing but play with all his heart and soul and one who is arguably the greatest ever to play tennis.

Cheryl, I don't agree with you that Rafa is not graceful. I think he's very graceful and I love watching his footwork. The way runs to the back of the court after the coin toss is a thing of beauty and communicates such sweet enthusiasm and zest for the game. The way he celebrates is one of the most beautiful things to see. He leaps up like a deer or some other-worldly beautiful creature, flying in the air and his joy just resonates and radiates in the beauty of his movement. Such pizzazz and flair. The French are the real losers - being so blind they lose out on the joys of having an unforgettably charismatic and magnificent players in their midst. But we must not forget that there are some in the crowd who are not behaving like idiots. If 50% were booing, there were 50% who were not so it's a question of also looking at the part of the glass that is half-full even though the jerks make the most noise.

Hey Rocky, I loved your description of Rafa!
But I think you are being unfair to Serena. When she started to serve she couldn't stop herself. I think Justine should have said something. Mind you, I am a Justine fan. My whole family rooted for her. The tiny creature with her beautiful backhand, her sheer guts and determination! She and Monica Seles are my all-time favourites.
At the time this incident occurred I did not even like Serena but still I felt sorry for her. That was the beginning of my first soft feelings towards her because till then I had felt she and her sister were like unstoppable beasts, too big, too strong. I saw the human side of her which was appalled by the injustice (as she perceived it).
I am still a Justine fan and I won't call her a liar or a cheat. She was just determined to win, maybe ruthless, and so she did not think it necessary to go out of her way to be generous. But please don't find fault with Serena to whom injustice was done by the umpire with or without assistance of Justine.
I like Serena now and I would root for her against all other players except one and that is Justine for I admire and love the tiny genius more.

the bottomline of all these discussion is that:
1. If you are a sports fan, tennis in particular, then you must have know how to appreciate every single point players (whoever they may be) earned during the match.

2. Unfortunately, as many fell in love with tennis, it goes along with loving a specific player.

3. In that case, if you don't love anybody out there except you FAVORITE then might as well respect others.

NOT ALL TENNIS FANS ARE FANS OF THE SAME PLAYER.

I've been to France many times. I love the food, the countryside, the people even as ed has pointed out, their willingness to demonstrate about everything :) I've also been to RG and intend to go many times again.
All that said, I don't particularly like many Parisians I've met. I've found many arrogant, rude and unhelpful in huge contrast to people from Brittany, Normandy etc.
Mind you, I could say exactly the same about Londoners. I think it's something about big city dwellers, it blunts your sensibilities.
We all know how easily crowd behaviour can be manipulated, not even consciously, too.
Don't know anything about this booing incident but do know Madrid crowd was very cold about Nole's performance and I commented here at the time on this.

Rafaisthebest, Strauss-Kahn was framed. The telltale signs are there for everyone to see. Let's not go there.

I definitely think its stupid of the crowd to expect someone who does not play a physical game to dominate at the French - if that's their reason for not liking Rafa. Perhaps they should switch to a different surface if they want someone else winning their slam.

Still think its not right to stereotype the crowd as "French". I know plenty of French people who don't just like Rafa; they are die-hard fans of him.

@Che-Muzz- First of all, great idea of writing this article. All of us know that Rafa is a great champion and commands great respect. Even his detractors would have to accept that winning 9 slams and Olympic GM is no fluke. The way the crowd treats him is abominable.

And to say that only the Americans on SL were booing him is crap. How many Americans do you expect when Ryan Harrisson was a last minute replacement for Becker, coming in as a lucky loser.

It has been happening for a long time and this treatment is despicable.

Sampralica mentions Londoners being rude, unsympathetic , etc. That may be so, and yet I've never heard the Wimbledon crowd boo anybody. I think that's one of the things that is so startling and unsettling. The French crowd is openly rude without consideration for the world looking on as if they have no way of checking themselves.
And by the way Torrez, there's absolutely nothing romantic about that behavior. As a matter fact, every romantic notion I ever had about France has fallen by the wayside the last couple of years.

Plenty of rude people in the big cities of most countries, no doubt. Plenty of non-rude people too.

On the one hand I'd rather not start singling out the bad behaviour that may be kind of typical of a particular nation... but either we are going to talk without our heads in the sand about RG crowds or Rafa or else let's not discuss it at all.

The fact is that it is hard to think of any tournament anywhere in the last 20 years where a crowd so often has been behaving so appalingly against especially one player. And one who has shown such good behaviour and left so much of himself on the court and thus also given to the paying spectators.

So you are right, Maya, to point out that while Londoners can be rude the London tennis crowds just don't boo anybody.

Yes, it is not all the people in that crowd at RG.... but it is the only crowd where so many have booed so often, and not because a player was himself or herself displaying despicable behaviour.

I never said Londoners were rude or anything of the sort; although having lived in a different city and visited London a few times, it was easy to notice how much more uptight and stressed people seemed.

Rafaisthebest, Strauss-Kahn was framed. The telltale signs are there for everyone to see. Let's not go there.

samprallica
, 5/26/11 8:36 AM

Eh.......He was framed into what.....consentual sex with an African chambermaid? Because, my dear samprallica, is what his lawyers are lining up as his defence after blood (yes, blood) and his DNA were found on the alleged honeypot............who knows they may even tell us she liked it rough.......................Sigh. Thank God for the red, white 'n blue I say..............

So yes..........let's not go there.

Oh come on, you are telling me that one of the world's most powerful men can't find his way to discretion, and is so starved he needs to mess up with a random maid?

The real reason for the Strauss Kahn issue is his change of policies within the IMF and his threat to Sarkozy. Enough of that, it not right to go on about something else on this site.

Enough of that, it not right to go on about something else on this site.
samprallica
, 5/26/11 7:59 PM


Look who's talking............

As far as Wimbledon fans, I think they showed their character when Rafa played Murray last year in the semis. We all know how dearly they have wanted one of their own to finally win a slam after such a long drought. Even so, they were more than respectful of Rafa and still cheered him. That was a display of class, grace and appreciation and love for a great champion.

When Rafa beat Berdych in the final and addressed the crowd, he made a point of mentioning what it meant to him to have the crowd being supportive when he played their man. He told them how much it meant to him and that this wouldn't happen anywhere else.

They could teach the French crowd at RG a lession!

The Wimbledon crowd is exemplary and probably unparalleled in terms of behavior. They're the gold standard.

I am sorry, but I cannot watch Rafael Nadal play tennis. His antics (butt etc...) are so repulsive, that it is getting painful to watch that guy. I dont have that problem with any other player. I have no idea how some people can enjoy to see him play.

I guess the French feel just the same as me. He is unwatchable so you can hardly cheer for him. Doesnt he realize, that millions of people are watching his neanderthal rituals? Didnt his parents or relatives (uncle Toni!!!) ever teach him how to behave in public? And all those TV commentators? They dont say a thing about it. The French crowds just expresses what all those guys dont dare to say: "You, Rafa, are disrespecting your opponents and us, the audience, with your behaviour on court". If there is nobody in his environment willing to explain that to him, he will learn it the hard way. Maybe its a bit harsh to boo him, I agree, but there are not so many other things they can do to show him what´s on their minds.

@christoph , 5/26/11 10:34 pm Hahahahahahahahah

Rafa is paid to play by so many countries ALL over the world, they pay him mega bucks in appearance fees and people queue up for hours just to see him practice, he is always surrounded by security guards because soooooooomany people want to be close to him, so christoph, there are not many people who feel the same way that you do. The majority of tennis fans LOVE Rafa.

christoph, if you don't watch Rafa, how do you know what he does on court?

christoph, take a look at this video taken at Champs Elysees before the start of the FO this year then come here and admit that your rant was based on a figment of your imagination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka-TBs7Pc4o

what a poor, poor creature this christoph is...don't you want to disappear from earth this very minute when your stupid words reached your brain and made you realize what nonsense you have just said...Rafa is adored by millions and you dare say something like that...I feel sorry for the people like you...I would laugh at you but you are not even worth a laugh...

Ahhhh les Parisiens... ils sont... ... .... n'est-ce pas?
Be honest... it's not story of French ppl... they are parisians! If you are born and you live in Paris... very quickly they will teach you that you are better than anyone else!
30 years ago... I was living in Paris, I was 20... young and I am artist painter!
I was on the top of the world!!! ... so every last chloshar under some bridge feels that he is more worthy that anyone else... that's Paris!
They love Roge... coz he is francophone... and for them every francophone from Swiss is like... you know, little cousin from village.
I am not defending them... booing someone coz he had just won is terrible... almost like cristoph's post. Pathetic... cristoph... just change the channel on your remote.
Watch Teletubbies... maybe you will understand the story.

This person cristoph sure seems to know a lot about Rafa's on court habits. Kind of odd for someone who claims to despise him so very much. Also, your use of the word "neanderthal" is extremely offensive.

Rafa has displayed manners, politeness, grace and poise whether he wins or loses. He is a class act all the way. The only one who is acting like a "neanderthal" is you! I think you could learn a lot from Rafa, but you are too blinded by hate to see. I feel sorry for you.

i think christoph has forgotten to take his medicine

christophe sounds like a regular poster here who is pretending to have a go at Rafa under another name.

Actually, this thread is attracting people who seem to enjoy thinking that the French don't like Rafa. I've never been to RG but if they didn't like Rafa in the past they do now just look at the link I provided above where they couldn't get enough of him.

nadline,
It is both at the same time. Hundreds of thousands, if not more, fans of Rafa in France, just like in many other countries of the world, possibly every country that has easy access to television and the internet.

And plenty of spectators who have paid good money for seats at RG who have booed him for all the wrong reasons on many occasions, unlike any other country or tournament.

zare,
You are an artist painter: good on you! I would have been too if I had more talent and, what's more, more guts. I had a couple of shows but that's about it. Still enjoy painting and photography. It is art (paintings) that made me take the train over and over to Paris as a kid when we lived in Belgium.

...LOL... chlorostoma... yes, you need guts to try living and working art!
But... sometimes I can say that I have something similar with Nole, Rafa, Fed...
I am working what I love!!! I think that's most important thing in our lives!
But that is ONLY similarity ... :(
............................................................
I don't understand... how can someone says something bad about Rafa?!?
...about Fed?...that's OK... ( just joking... )
... and I am diehard Nole's fan :)... but simply Rafa is so good and nice person of court. On court he not nice, he's dangerous. Excuse me ... but that kid has BIIIIIIG balls! Unbelievable !!!

chlorostoma... my alt. address is zare1961@hotmail.com... call me there and I will give you info where can you see the paintings ... if you are interested :)

hi zare,
I will, just after typing this.

Re balls. I think ALL the top players, women and men, have them. Figuratively :-). All of them have had to work so hard for so many years as kids and adolescents and face so many opponents even on days when their heart was not quite into it, and as they got higher and higher in the hierarchy and ranking of players this meant for all of them to lose matches more and more often. And yet they have continued to play all year long all over the world. That takes a lot of balls. They all get nervous ... whether it is more or less on a given day, and whether they show it more or less. And still play despite the nervousness / fears, despite your strokes not working the way they do in practice...

Yes, some have BIIIIIGER balls than others... and Rafa clearly more so than most. I wish he had the same confidence this spring that he did last year :-)... but the good thing is that this gives Novak more or a chance this time around... just when he is ready to play the best tennis of his life so far. Novak has shown ALL THE COURAGE of the top champions these last few months. What I hope will happen next, and I mean starting in a few months or maybe we have to wait for 2012 is for Rafa and Novak to be full of confidence at the same time for many tournaments in a row... then we'll have a treat. I don't particularly like the slugging aspect of their tough matches together... but I do like all the heart and all the strife, all the tactics (and strategy) as they are doing their best. You rarely get the top two players at that level at the same time... it happened a bunch of times with fedal but also with that dance couple it was not in the cards every time.

OK, end of digression lol.

LOL.. reminds me of Mats Wilanders' comments on why Fed can;t beat Rafa in the past saying 'there's two reasons why Rog can't beat Rafa in RG' and he meant it to be BALLS.

so far the Nadjoko this year has been a very tight and close. But I still prefer the Fedal rivalry. Love seeing Fed's one-handed BH against Nadal's Forehand and also Fed's high court position against Rafa's behind-the-baseline position. The creativity of Fed and the tenacity of Rafa.

Novak-Rafa is more of the battle behind the baseline but also very entertaining because it becomes more of an even battle because we have two similiar players who are strong on both wings and two very fit players.

Here's hoping for a Nadjoko final

May I suggest: Djodal

Djokodal, Ravak, Nofa, NovaRafa...

^^^ how about nadadjoke

None of those combinations exactly rolls off your tongue! :)

If I say so myself, I think that DJODAL does.... if you've gotten used to names starting with DJ, by way of Djokovic...

It's the sequel to the FEDAL era.

Rafa is the senior partnet in this so his name has to come first. Ravak is good.

R A L E :)

zare, that is so funny! folks, we live in the RALE era:))

lol. You guys are funny. :D

Che-Muzz, Cher-ray, Chery-pie, ryl-ray, Cherymuzz, Chezz....

If the French liked Rafa I can't imagine what more they could do.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yb7K2HC5xY4/TeCOYM_ZwmI/AAAAAAAABz8/S Xhx6vtpgws/s1600/249253_10150195816279920_196363369919_6758890_3121482 _n.jpg

Era of the Nano!

nano? hahaha. i like it

i call them rafole

NaNo sound little bit futuristic... But the power they produce in their matches is on edge of releasing atomic energy... So there might be smell of nano particles all over court :)

Brad Pitt+Angelina= Brangelina

Novak=Rafael =Novafael

and they booed Fogini after he beat Montanes

i hate them

and, Cheryl, yes you got the Henin-Serena highlights correct

Nano sounds neat but it combines Rafa's last name with Nole's first. Lack of symmetry.
Rafole, Rale, Ravak are, in my opinion, better candidates.

cheryl -

lol, like the piece. john mcenroe was the one for them.

nice one ricky cheryl where's your response

Well..Fognini cheated. They weren't booing him just because he's fognini.

he didn't cheat.

he took advantage of the "rules"

The rules say you can't take an injury time out because of cramping. He was cramping and lied about it so he could get the time out anyway.

I guess if you want to put a fine point on it, you could say he lied, but that's splitting hairs.

The rules are crap imo. Who really wanted the trainer to stop the match by determining that it was a cramp? Who watches tennis to see the trainer ruin a perfectly miraculous comeback? That rule should be changed.

Fognini pulling out makes no difference because he wouldn't have beaten Djokovic anyway. He mentioned that Djokovic has won over 40 matches in a row so would he have turned up if it was against another player?

Not bad for Nole, one Ret and one W/O. Nice work if you can get it.

Cheryl owes Fabio an apology. :)

Clearly it was more than a cramp or his doctor wouldn't have advised him to pull out.

Great article Cheryl. It's about time someone called them on it. Just watch the overwelming French support Soderling will get against Rafa on Wednesday. They don't like Rafa preventing Federer from winning more Slams over the years, simple as that. I was in Paris in 1999 and saw Graf beat Hingis in the FO finals. I was a Graf fan but the French booing Hingis during the match reducing her to tears was unfair and typical of their boorish behaviour.

Poor Hingis, she never won the French Open. I was never a Graf fan. I don't much care for dominating types who with a combination of great skill and incredible luck ( weak era for Federer and easy draws; stabbing of Seles for Graf) managed to amass a pile of titles. Can't imagine why the French booed the young Hingis trying for her first FO title and cheered the old Steffi trying to add to her already huge pile. Their treatment of Hingis puts paid to the theory that the French like the neutral Swiss. They like old people with a sizeable pile to win more.

Conspirator,

I wasn't a Graf fan and wanted Hingis to win but it's clear why they booed her :

She walked to Graf's side of the court to check a mark when that's the chair umpire's job. She always was too cocky and it's her fault for choking away that match ; not the crowd's fault. She never learned humility.

numero,
Federer and Hingis are both Swiss and cocky. But the French cheer for Fed.

Graf was one of the best, technically gifted tennis players ever. Hingis was only 18 at the time. OK for the crowd to voice their displeasure immediately after an infraction but typical RG crowd, they bullied Hingis after almost every point thereafter for the rest of the match thus affecting the outcome. This crowd behaviour only occurs at RG.

BTW I'm guessing numero is a Fed fan(atic). Me? I am a tennis fan. Rafa needs to play to his abilities to win. Fed is playing well enough to have a shot but no one can handle Djokovic if he continues to play this way. His recent level is a game-changer. He has successfully put his demons to bed and has redefined the gold-standard. It will be interesting to see if he can continue at this level over a few years.

Personally, I can't wait for the inevitable Fed-Nole semifinal. Fed's playing some pretty outstanding tennis at the moment.

finally, thank you cheryl for writting about this, i thot they were suppose to be civilised, obviously not. Is not just Nadal they do it to, if you noticed yesterday, schiovone's celebrations were very subdued, i guess she didn't want them to turn on her.

Personally, I can't wait for the inevitable Fed-Nole semifinal. Fed's playing some pretty outstanding tennis at the moment.

cherylmurray, 5/31/11 2:56 PM

I too am looking forward to RF vs ND. Let's just hope it lives up to the expectations and is a good match. Though I would love Federer to win, I just have a gut feeling he's not going to.

And how bout acknowledging Nole's 43-match winning streak as he walks off court, hey? Rude, stuck up, Federer-obsessed RG crowd.

Well, now you know how Rafa fans feel! We have been dealing with it for too long. With all that Rafa has achieved, now in a position to equal Borg's record of six titles, one would think that the French might appreciate it.

I know all too well who they will be cheering for on Sunday and it won't be Rafa!

there's much more to it than flare on court - chic apparel and, most importantly, language. fed speaking such lovely fluent french must work wonders for their gallic pride.
tell them if they don't stop being so arrogant and start speaking english, they'll be excluded from the slam circuit. (only joking)

I don't like much French crowd, didn't saw anything good about it. But I do think that we need one slam like this... Dirt, chaos in organization, no manners crowd, xenophobic nation, weird apparel... almost like a Street/ghetto Slam... but overall pretty unique atmosphere, and like survivor you have to beat lot of things... not just opponent.

That means I am supporting Rafa, because french boing translated to other languages is ovation, and starts to become music for my ears :)

If the French are rude to Rafa it might just give him the extra spur to sink Federer. A repeat of 2008 will be very welcome.

Yes, this Roger-crazed crowd will even boo Rafa. I sat next to some of these people in the Isner match, and they just hated Rafa - I asked them why after the match, and they said "he's not beautiful like Roger; and no one can win so many time" - what garbage!
I hope this antagonism from the crowd fuels Rafa to his 6th crown!

It's unfair but I think Fed has the biggest tennis fanbase. Maybe Rafa is the better player but you win points with the tennis fans when you have good on-court demeanour(look at how Fed celebrated his win against Djoko,any other player would have been jumping and screamed), have a good sense of humour, speak five languages (including French)

Of course, these are not related to tennis. In the end, it's about the forehands, serves and backhands. But I think (without proof) that Fed is more loved in all Slams venue. A lot of tennis fans relate to Fed because they are human beings and most people are spiritual and they believe in magical things.

Fed represents magic. Put him besides Nadal, you'll always see a guy so much inferior in terms of physicality, aggression, confidence. You see a guy dominated.

Most people are not dominators in life. They work for someone else. But you'd like to believe that with intelligence and quiet confidence, you'd be able to beat people who are more powerful than you.

Rafa will win but Fed will remain the darling of the tennis fans. I now realized the reason I support Fed is not because of the records but what he symbolizes.

torres, this is sport, players should show physical emotion when they win, it's not some kind of stage act. Don't you see what footballers do when they score a goal? And don't tell me that Federer has never jumped up or gone down on his knees when he wins.

There are lots of people who are fans of Federer because they only pay lip service to tennis they don't really follow it. In quiz shows on TV in the UK any question on tennis always gets Federer as the answer because that's the only name many people know, most people had never heard of Djokovic until 2 months ago considering he's been in the top 3 for years. When they announce that Murray has beaten Berrer, most people haven't a clue who Berrer is and where he fits into the scheme of things.

Rafa is far more popular in some countries than Roger and Rafa's merchandise sells 10 times as much as Roger's.

Not sure abt the Rafa merchandise selling more. Last time I checked RF brand is still leading brand.

Anyway, i'm pointing out why Fed is popular among the French crowd.

Hey, strong is beautiful baby. The french need to watch the new WTA add. It doesn't matter if your a male or female athlete, if you don't have strength, athleticism, and confidence, none of the rest matters. Good thing Rafa has everything in abundance. My thinking is that anytime a large crowd of fools gather to undermine a champion of Rafa's caliber the universe will make things right.

Wow? So unfair about the french crowd? Guilty without a fair trial? I have traveled over the 4th grand slam and there are no crowd better then one other?

"@ atg Dirt, chaos in organization, no manners crowd, xenophobic nation, weird apparel?"
Are you serious? Don't think you have any idea of what you're talking about?

The French crowd is not singular in their behavior. They boo anyone and everyone whom they perceive to be is not in line with their thinking, and their boos are not directed at specific players. I think the Madrid crowd is pretty nasty. There are many countries which behave uncouthly.

Torres9 where did you check and when about RF brand being the leading brand? Must call your bluff.
Yeah, I guess it is considered classy by the weirdos for someone to howl like a baby because he could not win a grand slam or pass ungracious and petty remarks. Yeah, torres9 you admire Federer not because of tennis but because of his pettiness.
And it is all bull about him not being powerful or athletic. Have you seen his lower body? He is like a powerful cat ( cougar?) as somebody described him. Federer has huge strength and stamina. He works hard, it is not magical.

Roger's celebration after winning the semi-final was very much an "in your face" to Djokovic. (Not that I wasn't a little bit glad to see it after witnessing Djokovic and his family and fans going nuts all season). Even McEnroe, who was practically drooling over the possibility of Roger winning the tournament said that Fed was cocky in those moments immediately following match point. Furthermore, Roger has shown himself to be less-than-gracious many times in his interviews. I won't even say much about his so-called fans on the internet. Let's just say that I agree with NativeNewYorker. I do believe that many tennis fans have bought Roger's "classy" act hook, line, and sinker.

I watched the final on FR national tv and just turned the sound off - it was too disgusting. I'm not saying that the FR crowd is better or worse than any other but at times it looked as a davis cup match between FR (Fed) and Spain, just weird for a now 6 time champion.
Does anybody remember if they booed Borg for winning so much?
On the bright side it's true that Rafa thrives on all this negativity - in his speech he thanked the crowd but I'm sure inside he's grinning and saying something like 'in your face!' hehehehe

I've never bought into the descriptions of the differences between Roger and Rafa that exagerate their level of physicality. Yes, Rafa comes from strong stock and has large biceps (more in the past than now; and a bunch of other tennis players do too all of whom but one did not use to wear cut-off sleeves). And yes, in his early precautious days the only way he had a chance of winning against much older players is to not only be skilled and tactical but to run down every single ball he could.

The truth of the matter is that Roger and Rafa are much, much closer to each other in levels of physicality and fitness, and in levels of skills and strategy and thinking on court than many people have made out over the years... and still do although (it sells stories, and it reinforces myths people want ot believe in) ...even though what I write here I think is very obvious.

Fed rarely takes off his shirt and I have not googled specifically to see his bare chest. Yet over the years I've seen a few pictures in passing that show us a broader chest than Rafa's, i.e. an equally powerful upper body, just shaped a bit differently. Roger has different genes and does not use a two-handed backhand, nor does he use a stroke with as much acceleration (and thus muscle) as Rafa's helicopter moves... as a result his arms are less muscular in *physical* size. But make no mistake: his body is very strong, and most of it from hard training year in year out. Typical example: he trains in Dubai in the high heat with weights on his ankles for strength and conditioning. He may have a near-magical touch but he needs and has the strength and stamina that are equally vital to be a the top of today's male tennis heap.

good one chloro :_

Have a look at this (going back to the FR crowd subject)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW4z0FnUz4o

Altough one can see a clear favouritism both from crowd and commentators, there isn't the air of negativity when Borg wins a point, just resigned claps.
But it's difficult to make an opinion because I think Borg doesn't make a single UE in these rallies, so we can't tell if they'd applause his misses like they do with Rafa...

These delusional Fed fans think their man doesn't need to train, he was born with tennis talent and skills fully developed.
Some of these morons gushed to him about him being a genius etc and he said he had to work hard on his genius. But did these morons understand? No! They still labor under the illusion that Fed has magical skills, totally natural, no training, no muscles. He is the same weight as Nadal with the same height. So chances are, he has the same % of muscle and fat.
But morons like certain fans here who shall remain unnamed have attempted to find certain explanations for the muscles of the lad from Manacor. Well, if his muscles can have only that explanation, then the Swiss beauty too is guilty.
Also they try to convince others that Federer's game is beautiful and effortless but Nadal's is ugly and involves effort. Ha ha, those who have sat close close to the court and watched Federer can see how much effort he too puts in.
Bottomline: Delusional Fed fans, Federer trains just as hard if not harder, his play which seems effortless from a distance isn't that effortless up close and in any case scientific studies have proved that super talented people's skills are almost entirely due to relentless work put in over the years ( at least 10000 hours).
No magic. Just great discipline and immense hard work.

^^ and some innate talent

With great instruction, high quality practice for over 10 thousand hours and a basically strong and flexible body you could get to be among the best of your city ... but if you don't have that extra bit... you will not make it into the top 500 of the world

on the other hand, it does not matter how much talent you have... it accounts only for that last 5% that you need.... if you don't get the proper instruction and don't put in that mountain of work... your talent will be of no use

in actual fact we do not know how many young people in the world have a very high lelevel of innate ability that would give them a top 100 tennis potential: I would expect there might be more or them than you might think.... it is true for every disciplie out there: lots of undiscovered talent never nurtured, and lots of somewhat recognized talent that never reached close to potential.

Talent is a tricky thing to picture indeed.
It is a word which is usually used by external people who witness someone else's prowess at doing something which evokes interest or causes admiration.
You never here this word coming from the mouth of the 1st party (if you do, it's a poser).
So, I would say 'talent' is how other people see the result of someone's dedication and hard work coupled with gentically given traits obviously.

I suppose the more the French are unhappy about Rafa winning their tournament the more Rafa is psyched up to win it and the more unhappy the French get. So at the end of the day, the French are the losers and Rafa is the winner with a capital W.

The thing is, Rafa is a creature of habit so if the crowd start backing him he might lose so he would want it to stay exactly the same - the French backing the loser. Apart from when he was injured and lost to Sod.

Yeah, maybe the French should continue to support Fed and boo Rafa.
One of the posters said that the French do not support Rafa because he has won so many times.
Did they support him in 2005?

Insulting other posters is not acceptable on Tennistalk. Keep it above-board everyone.

Thanks.

I never thought I would agree with something said by Prisident George Bush. Love the way Rafa always thanks the crowd for their "support".

Roger speaks perfectly french ,that´s why he is their "golden boy",
and there is a kind of a rivalry in between France and Spain.So, it would be a real
surprise if they would ever chear for Rafa.

I say to the French, keep cheering for the loser.

It makes Rafa's hold on the French title even sweeter because it makes the French miserable that every year they cheer against him and every year he takes their trophy home. What sweet revenge. Voila!!!

talent is innate ability. Every one in top 100 must have some talent, or be extremely optimistic about success in their chosen sport. It's what you do, or don't do with your talent that counts.
Safin, Gulbis, Nalbandian are all examples of players over-endowed with talent who perhaps didn't do as much with it as they might.

Yes, all players on the ATP-WTA circuit have got to have talent or else they wouldn't be playing the sport. Some players appear to be more talented, and the reason is clear, they work harder to improve upon that talent. The lazy ones are under-achievers because of one simple fact, they are just lazy. I salute the top players who are constantly working to improve their game. Time and tide waits for no man, and they need to make hay while the sun shines.

However in the level attained by an elite player, so overwhelming is the weight of relentless practice that talent may in fact play no more than the role of a catalyst. By observations scientists have found that hard work accounts almost entirely for the perfection seen. In fact the more effortless and natural a performance seems, the more effort has gone into it. Federer's fluid shots would turn into shanks if he doesn't practice.
Scientists haven't yet been able to prove the reverse i.e. a person without initial talent can achieve elite status just by hard work. This maybe because people pick an activity they feel passionate about and the initial passion is generated by talent or the ability to do something better than one's peers without training.
Michael Jordan could be an example of a person with no talent achieving elite status (prodigious skill) through relentless practice but there aren't enough Jordans around to enable any statistical studies or conclusions.

I find this sentence interesitng in your last post 'holdserve' (thx)
'This maybe because people pick an activity they feel passionate about and the initial passion is generated by talent or the ability to do something better than one's peers without training.'
So... talent may be what makes us feel good about ourselves because we seem to be doing it without as much effort as other people... (don't think it's my case.. maybe I excell somewhat at being extraordinarily lazy :))

holdserve, have you heard of Eddie The Eagle? He made a career out of being rubbish at ski jumping :)

Ha ha, yes I have heard of him but he made a career out of imperfection!
I think he recorded a Finnish song although he did not know Finnish and his imperfect pronunciation made it a hit!
Maybe his appeal lay in the fact that most of us aren't elite but we try and the average man or woman can identify with that.

Curiosity, desire play a lot into it. If you really love doing something and your mind takes to it more or less harmoniously (sometimes simply as a result of your love and curiousity for it) then you have a foundation on which to build thousands of hours of intense practice. Another foundation is sheer ambition... I think the previous one is better. And yet another foundation is extreme external pressure, e.g. Agassi's dad according to his bio.

Talent in part is that your mind takes to a certain set of skills with great symbiosis... and in the long run after the thousands of hours of hard work it is this 'naturalness' that can lead the super-performer to do things 5% better than the somewhat less talented performer who also put in as much work... both could finish that PhD if they really wanted to and life circumstances were favorable enough... (given the circumstances 90% of being able to get a PhD is down to consistent hard work over many years) but one of them might perhaps invent a bit more in that field while both will contribute and accomplish much. In the case of Roger - now that he has and continues to put in the same incredible amount of hard work we see the touches of brilliance only a few are capable of (Nalbandian, Gulbis, you name it) ... while the consistency is down to hard work and the experience of winning often as a result. We see a similar level of brilliance in the other top 4 players, each with a somewhat different set of skills in which they are extraordinary.

If the French are tired of spaniards winning 'their' trophy too bad for them! it isn't Rafa's problem. They should be thankful to him for still wanting to take part in it since it's players who make the tournements great and not biceversa.
Can you imagine the cheers and joy when a French players wins RG again?!

chlorostoma, I think your definition of talent is circular like the definition of force in Newton's First Law of motion.

say what? :)

I know which Roger would prefer if it was a choice of winning or being popular with the spectators.

I don't know how Federer with the personality of a donut, as somebody in a tennis fan forum put it, is so popular.
Lendl hardly got any sponsorships. Even Sampras hardly got any (whereas Agassi was in great demand) before he wept at some tournament after winning. His coach was terminally ill or dead. He became popular and started getting sponsorships.
How did Fed who looks like a perfectly programmed tennis robot and makes pronouncements only about his greatness or about others being 1-d or whatever, how did this guy become so popular?

holdserve, you hit the nail on the head when you pointed out that it took someone 5 years younger than Federer to provide some competition for him. Federer is also 6 years older that Djokovic and Murray, so he is the only one of the top 4 knocking 30. Most of the players in his age group are outside the top 20 hence te weak era.

As the say, in the country of the blind the one eyed man is king.

"I don't know how Federer with the personality of a donut, as somebody in a tennis fan forum put it, is so popular.'

whoa holdserve, you need to stop this senseless Fed bashing. You're simply unbelievable regarding your obsession with Roger. That's hate man. Why? what has this man done to you to provoke this over the top obsessive need to bash him?

Some rafa bloggers get on anyone's case, even the Rafa fans, if they see anything they don't want to read, and call it poking Rafa fans in the eye. . dunno, but if any Fed fan were to bash Rafa in the manner you obsessively bash Roger, there would be non-stop war. 99% of your comments include some derogatory remark about rRg. Why? If your bashing isn't enough, there's always one more Rafa fan joining in to agree with you and poke the Fed fans in the eye.

BTW, what weak era are you talking about? Rafa is just a bad matchup for Rog, two-handed BH, lefty, against a one-handed BH righty, plus 5 years younger, which is a huge benefit for Rafa. Can't it be that Rog was simply too good for those in his age bracket? Even the younger guys, Nole, and Murray couldn't beat Rog consistently in the past. It took a Rog in decline for Nole to finally beat him during his streak this year, so what does that say about the greatness of the man, Roger fFderer? A lot, and it's not something you should promote, as it makes the young ones look deficient also. Anyway, enough already.

@ nadline, keep on bashing, but your rants don't make any sense. Don't forget that Rafa was present during rRger's dominance, as he's been on the tour since he was 14. I wouldn't keep on harping on the age difference as it's a plus for Rafa. In sports, a younger body should beat an older one, which makes your comparisons ridiculous, and does not make Rafa look so great. Remember, a young thoroughbred will always outlast an older one. Didn't you guys learn anything about Rafa's strength when he played Verdasco for 5 hours and then retuened the next day to beat Rog? Which player can handle that kind of strength?

Tell me this nadline, why can't Nole, Murray and the other younger stallions beat Rafa, consistently, considering they are in his era and age group? Isn't it because Rafa is better than they are? Then the same argument should be applied to Roger playing against the guys in his era and age bracket, (of which Rafa is an integral part) , it's because Rafa is simply better than than his peers.

If anyone's blind, then it's you guys.

correction, "it's because Rafa is simply better than than his peers. " Insert Roger for Rafa here.

^^^scoretracker, you must be deluded not to accept that Federer's contemporaries were weak and that's why it took guys far younger than him to challenge him. You don't need to exerggerate to make your point, Rafa turned at pro at 15 not 14 and whilst he was too good for the juniors at that point, no one expected him to start beating the big boys (in age) from day 1, but from the age of 17 he was able to do so including Federer.

The talk of Federer being the greatest that ever played the game was bit premature because his admirers did not expect anyone to come close to him and now they can see that he is not shining as brightly up against players 5 & 6 years his junior. By the way, if Federer was ready for the pro tour sooner he would have turned pro sooner, as it is, he did not win his first Masters title until he was 21; by the time Rafa was 21, he had won 3 GS, 9 Masters and a host of other titles.

No one is bashing Federer anymore that anyone is bashing Rafa. Rafans make the case for Rafa and they wouldn't be his fans if they they didn't see the positive things about his career, similarly Fedfans and all other fans do the same about their favourite players. Obviously, if Rafans saw what Fedfans see in Federer they would be Fedfans not Rafans and vice versa.

No one hates Federer, we just don't agree to some of the claims his fans make. Any objective observer can see as clear as daylight that Federer's peer were weak.

Federer's PEERS were weak.

..well, you know I'm a Rafan to the bone but I admire Mr. Fed for all he's achieved. I don't like his personality much nor his style of play but the man's won 16 GS, if his peers were weak so much the better for him, this doesn't diminish the feat. I also wish Rafa's peers were weaker so he could assure himself more GSs :)

@nadline: Where's the exaggeration of Nadal's age on turning pro? He turned pro in 2001, whien he was approx 14 years and some months as he played a challenger in 2001, and a player cannot play a challenger unless he's been on the tour for some time, which makes Rafa closer to 14 than 15. Im not hung up on age, as it's immaterial, but it appears that it's very important to you when you want to slam Rog. Strangely, you exaggerate by saying Roger's 30, when in truth, he won't be 30 until August. See, it's so easy to say others exaggerate when you are guilty of the same act.

Don't say no one is bashing Federer as only a (using your word here) deluded person can say that. Every comment you write that pertains to Rog, you come up with something to bash him, or you find some means to attack him. FYI, it's the younger guys who begin beating the big boys as you put it. it's not the old guys who do it, as that's the way sports is. It's why the young ones get into the limelight. Your argument of Rog not being ready for the pro tour at a younger age is just a trivial one. What's with the age thing with you? Don't you know every player peaks at a different age? It's why we are called individuals. Do get off the age rant as t's futile. In the end, it's not about who won what at what age, it's what they have accomplished when their careers are over. Do you think that in their bios it will be stated that Rog won 16GS, but Rafa Nadal won his first GS at a younger age? C'mon, that's petty.

Don't say that Rog fans bash Rafa more, as it's not true. Rafa fans far outnumber Fed fans, so we're on unequal footing here. As for the Rafafans making the case for him, well, that's great, but when Fed fans try to make a case for him, we're labeled 'delusional morons'. As I said, the most over-used words on this forum. do you see any Rog fans saying Rafafans are 'delusional morons' ? If you don't hate Rog, then tell me why you mention him and take jabs at him without him being mentioned? You get your fun by bashing Roger, and that's the plain truth.

"Obviously, if Rafans saw what Fedfans see in Federer they would be Fedfans not Rafans and vice versa." You got that right, so why do you keep on with your usual rants? Yes, all fans do defend their favourite player, but for some reason some here go over the top. I think this arguing here is bad for my health which is a warning. Danger, Will Robinson! I see I'm beginning to fall into the wordy few.

FYI, if Fed's peers were weak, then that means Rafa and all who are playing presently are weak. In sports, one's peers are not categorized according to age, but who's competing at the present time.

@shireling: Rafa's peers are those who are playing at the present ime. Would you say that doctors who are practising medince in a hospital, working daily, side by side, are not considered peers due to their difference in age?

@nadline, forgot to mention. Rog turned pro 1998, so how could he not be Rafa's peer. Be careful when you say Fed's peers were weak.

Fed turned pro 3 years before Rafa, they are not the same age group either. What saved Roger was the fact that Rafa shot up the rankings to No 2 in no time so Roger was protected from him until the final, if Rafa and Roger were able to meet sooner in the draw, Federer would not hae made many of the finals he made.

Using the doctor analogy, this is something I have experience of since my son is a doctor. They may all be working together but age does matter in medicine because you will find (in the UK anyway) that experience and seniority definitely goes with age. If a doctor hasn't reached a certain level for his number of years after qualifying, and younger doctors are senior to him, you will find that professionally he is finished, because he would be considered a failure.

@nadline look at what peer means.


noun
"One that is very similar to another in rank or position: coequal, colleague, compeer, equal, equivalent, fellow. "

Rafa and Roger ARE peers.

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------

Look at Wiki's definition:

'A person who has equal standing with another or others, as in rank, class, or age'.

Note that 'age' is just one factor otherwise it would say 'and age'.
I think in sport it isn't so easy to talk about 'peers' - You can argue that all the players in the tour who can potentially play against each other are peers but how could you objectivelly compare a guy who just joined the atp ranking and who plays a first-round match up against one of the main seeds and who might be 10 year younger?

errr, that would be 'older' not 'younger'..
It seems that 'rank' is more valid to determine a 'peer' - so I would say, only players who can on any given day beat one-another (like the top seeds) can be considered peers .. since Fed was unbeatable by anyone for some years before Rafa came along, one could argue that he had no peers :)

'Peer' means different thing in different contexts, not all rolled together in one. As you used the medical profession to make your point, I thought I'd point out that age does matter in that profession. You will not find a 54 year old junior doctor reporting to a 42 year old consultant, it just doesn't happen; if the 54 year old had not progressed from being a junior doctor, he would be out of the profession because he would not be able to get a job as it's a sign of incompetence.

Notice, Wiki said 'or age'. So, yes Shireling, age is just one of the factors, and an insignificant one at that. I think it would be more practical to say that if there's a 10 year difference in age, then that would be a different generation, but 5 years difference is not a criteria that should be vigorously argued. I think the top 10 players are all peers. I use top 10, as that's how ATP views the competitive players, and it's why there is the focus on the top 10.

@nadline, the 54 year doctor reporting to a 42 year-old doctor, happens., and the 54 year old is not washed up as you may think. You can argue on the peer thing all you want, I still feel that as long as a player is in the top 10, he is a peer. Rafa and Roger are peers, so is Novak, Murray, Ferrer, berdych, Roddick, Monfils, etc. Have you ever heard any of the commentators state that Rafa and Roger are NOT peers?

scoretracker, like a typical Fed fan you are immune to logic and after I have completely explained why Federer's era is perceived as weak, you ask for explanation? And then you argue on an irrelevant issue viz definition of peer?
The point is not whether Roger and Rafa are peers or not. The point is did Roger have any player who was also in his prime viz aged around 22 to 28-29 between 2003 and 2007 who was real competition?

@holdserve, now who's being deluded? Where did I ask YOU for an explanation of anything? C'mon, now it's whether Rog had any competition from 2003-2007? Well, Roddick won the USO in '03. Wasn't Roddick No. 1 at the end of '03? Didn't Juan Carlos ferrero win the FO? How about changing the time-frame to make it suit your argument. All of the players were Fed's competition who were playing during those years. Most of those players are still around, which makes Rafa's competition weak, yes? BTW, how do you know what is Fed's prime? You're only surmising that his prime was at age 22. He joined the at age 17, which means his prime could have been later. What is Rafa's prime, do you know? I bet you can't as we're, none of us, equipped to determine someone else's prime. What makes you think the peer argument is irrelevant? I think your arguments on who's delusional, moronic and illogical, are irrelevant on this or any blogsite. Anyway,. enough already.

scoretracker, the fact that you haven't understood why the peer argument is irrelevant shows you are illogical.
Is Roddick real competition? The fact that he was no. 1 in 2003 doesn't prove anything. Hewitt was no. 1 sometime too. Neither of them is of the 'great' standard.
Federer had no real competition. Even a pre-prime Rafa still developing his game was better competition than those two.

@holdserve, over the years I've found out that it's best not to argue with those who think others are morons, devoid of logic and are always right. You fit into those categories. i dislike arguments, and as i asid, enough already.

BTW, you didn't answer my question, when or where I asked you to explain anything to me? i doubt you'll have an answer. My deduction, you're always right stands.

scoretracker, a pity you are unable to see logical equivalences. You asked , what weak era are you talking about? Isn't that asking for an explanation after I have already explained why 2003-2007 was the weak era?
For once you made a correct deduction above. Or almost correct. I am generally right ( not always right) unlike Fed fans who base their statements on delusions or argue about irrelevant issues.

Cheryl, is it an insult to be called a "delusional Fed fan" for disagreeing with somebody, even when Federer has NOTHING to do with said conversation?

Weakera is bulls. It is a simple explanation about what has happenend the last 10 years.
Fed raised the bar to such a level nobody could touch him...... but one (one clay) 4 years Rafa had the honour of being the sidekick before he could take over. In those 4 years he saw in what he had to do in becomming the next big thing in tennis and so be it he did. But what happend is that Fed did not turn away he stayed and was able to stay with him. Now Fed is still in the mix. With another one who can act on the same level.
It has nothing to do with weakest era or strongest era, every era is stronger than the era before You better believe it that Lendl or Borg would never beat a modern top 10 player.
It was just that a sole person was able to pull away from the rest. If that is because the era was weak that means Federer is the greatest tennis player of all time. Thanks for explaining this to me. You could call a player like that The GOAT. So actualy you just did.

Sienna, a delusional Fed fan. My dear delusional, just by repeating umpteen times that Fed is the GOAT you don't prove anything except to fellow delusional Fed fans.
What makes you think I was trying to explain anything to you?
I have already explained to some others with logic and facts why Federer played in a weak era and why he is not the GOAT. If the logic is beyond your capacity to understand, that is your problem. Don't claim that I called him a GOAT. I am not delusional like you.

listening to him talk about other players, maybe he's a GOAT afterall...in a literal sense, that is!

---And in response to Nadal?s victory, half the stadium BOOED him. Let me repeat that. They booed him for WINNING---

Let me repeat that Fedfans have always hated Rafa because of his victories - because of his dominating Fed. It's not a news. They have proved it widly in the Internet, also on this site (Tennistalk). At the French Open, they showed their hatred as openly as they are doing in the Internet. That's it.

Rafa had also a lot of great supporters at the French Open. I was moved to tears when the Roland Garros crowd (half the stadium?) sang 'happy birthday dear Rafa' after his match. This was a really touching gesture!

I agree Augustina, that some people just like to rub it in that the French hate Rafa, though I've never been to RG, they seem to follow him around when he is there wanting to be close to him and wanting his autograph. Even when the crowd applauded Rafa the commentators would try to point out that though there were Rafa fans there, the vast majority of them were Fed fans. Frew McMillan said that the French are dazzled by Rafa alright but they just don't love him.

The crowd booed when Federer challenged a call wrongly, but the commentators said they weren't booing Federer they were booing the umpire, but when the same happened with Rafa they said they were booing Rafa, and Frew Mcmilan actually said that Rafa should be careful not to challenge too many calls because the crowd would turn on him even more in their support for Roger. So Rafa is expected to capitulate and not exercise his rights because of intimidation by the crowd; in normal life that would be called cheating. The French boo line call challenges, but in Roger's case, Oh No, forbid it that the are booing Federer, it's the umpire they are booing.

Rafa got a standing ovation when he beat Isner, but some people prefer to go on about how the crowd booed on another court when they announced the results.

Hey Augustina08, glad to see you are back. I was missing you! You are or at least were, the most devoted fan of Rafa on this site.

Hi holdserve, I am still a fan of Rafa. I have supported him on his homepage.

LOL probably the funniest part about hearing people babel about how Federer was only great because he played in a weak era is how blindly and wholeheartedly those people actually believe it. I guess for some reason a planet full of 6 1/2 billion people couldn't produce any tennis players that would stop a supposedly mediocre player like Roger from winning SIXTEEN grand slam titles, more than anyone in history. Guess everyone on earth except Roger's parents did it wrong. Or maybe the people of earth missed that gene for a generation. How is it that you people get taken seriously?

Did anyone say Roger is mediocre? That just shows how poor your comprehension skills are!
Do all delusional people become morons or are they delusional because they are morons?

Focused like a laser beam on something that has nothing to do with the point. That's what people do who try to save face when they're so blatantly misinformed. Note how you addressed nothing about how the notion of a so-called "weak era" is complete bull. All these delusional Fed-haters just don't know when to stop.

ts38 you are delusional. I have already made at least 10 posts explaining the concept of weak era in terms which a moron would understand. Explained with simple analogies etc. Repeated umpteen times that weak era doesn't mean that Federer was mediocre or that the average strength of the players called the Field was not of the standard of other eras.
I used clear illustrations, used numbers to explain.
But did it penetrate the thick skulls of the delusionals?
How many times do you want me to explain?
You claim weak era means Fed is mediocre.
Sienna makes equally foolish claims that weak era means the players in that era are all weaker than all the players in this era.
Neither of the above foolish claims is implied by weak era.
Get that ?
As to what it actually means read my numerous past posts in this regard. If you don't want to read, at least don't make silly posts in future.

See how your definition of weak era is changing before our very eyes? Now your definition of weak era looks to mean nothing at all. Delusional.

I have not changed my definition. Since you claim I have changed my definition, I challenge you to produce the post which contradicts what you claim is my current definition.
Come on, produce it.
All you Fed fans are delusional and making false allegations or claims seems to come easily and naturally to you like your Master.
Scoretracker claimed to be "very logical". I gave her/him a simple test. She/He started blustering.
Now you have made a false allegation.
Back it with proof or remain forever silent!

LOL maybe someday if I lose 3 of my limbs and get locked in a windowless brick room for 5 years will I actually pour through your 20,000 Fed-bashing posts and draw you a detailed map. My time is a little more valuable than that though.

So, I have exposed you! Liar!
I knew you could not produce such a post for the excellent reason that I never posted anything different at any time about concept/definition of weak era. I first started explaining the concept to Sienna's earlier avatar viz Torres9, then to current avatar. I have explained umpteen times. I am not a delu-Fed fan. My concepts are crystal clear. No way can morons trip me up.
How like a Fed fan to make false allegations/claims and when asked for proof, back out with some stupid bluster, just as scoretracker did.

hey holdserve, don't include me in in nonsensical rantings. I ignored you and never answered you, which means I didn't back out out of anything. I'm still waiting to see those posts I asked you to show me where you accused m,e of stuff that didn't happen. You need to stop your childish displays and your senseless efforts to amke yourself appear as smart. Smart people don't have to indulge in your silly name calling and rantings. You have been erased.

Scoretracker, What posts? You must be mixing me up with somebody else. I did not accuse you of anything except being illogical which I proved by giving you a simple problem. you could not solve it and you resorted to bluster. scoretracker is not "very logical". QED.
Although my logic is impeccable, my memory is not perfect . So please do produce my post accusing you of whatever and I will respond. If you at least tell me what I accused you of, I can confirm or deny.

Oh yes, I also pointed out that you are delusional but as that is general for all Fed fans and not specific to you, I don't think you are referring to that.
In any case that is a fact, not an accusation.

I see holdserve is clearly caught up in his/her web of conceit and lies. All because he/she wants to have a say in every item on TT site. On every item he/she wants to make clear the hatred for Fed. Showing that none of his/her statements/observations are indeed based on logic and facts. Now he/she is exposed for the delusion he/she is.

Furthermore I've noticed that the questions raised by this person during life matches are so dumb and clearly showes that this person knows nothing whatsoever about the game of tennis.

Did you mean "live" matches? Now this is really brilliant and "shows" you are a genius. :-)

Yeah whatever holdserve. I guess we're living in a weak clay era since Nadal is so dominant, so I guess by your logic his French Open count is really down to like 2 or 3, and his GS total is down to 6. Nowhere near greatest of all time level performance.

holdserve, you talk so much that you can't remember anything. You are just a bundle of inconsistencies, and to be pitied. Now you don't remember any of those posts in which you claimed I called you names? I haven't confused you with anyone else, but what's happening is you are now caught in a spider's web of spinning lies and propaganda, and can't get out. Lies do that to people. I think you are someone who has tons of time on your hands, and nothing to do all day, which is why you're on here all day attacking Fed fans non-stop. That, coupled with an intense hatred for Federer is the sole reason you unjustifiably attack Fed fans and accuse them of being illogical and delusional. In fact, you are the illogical and delusional one and I pity you. Remember, hate will kill you. I feel so sorry for you .

I also pity you and others for making fun of Sienna's English. I'm sure if you were to speak Sienna's tongue, he/she would find your utterances to be hilarious. Making fun of an ESL poster is very low IMO, and you have hit ground zero.

I agree with ts38, if Rog played in a weak era, despite the fact that Nadal's been in in that era, then Nadal's clay era is weak also, as he's the one winning all those titles. In truth, Nadal IS playing in a weak clay era. MC is now optional, and this year Novak opted out of playing there, not to mention the Americans who don't bother to show up. That said, Nadal IS, without a doubt, playing in the weakest clay era and it's why he's able to win all those titles. Roger won a lot in this era because he's the best there is, which is obvious to all.

Additionally, it should be stated that the reason nadal can carve up so many masters titles on clay as opposed to the other clay specialists before him, is due to the 3 set format as opposed to the 5 set. He vigorously complained in '06r after he had to play Rome and Hamburg in 5 setters and ATP changed it from 5 sets to 3 sets. That's extremely unfair to those clay experts before him, who had to sweat it out in 5. Another example of how easy Nadal has had it on clay in the weakest clay era.

Phoenis mine english is good enough in showing that there are many many people on this site whose only reasson for reacting to comments is their hatred towards Fed. So if I happen to miss a verb, a noun or a vowel honestly I cannot be bothered with that. For you to make mockery about that I pitty you. It is not that I keep a dictionairy at hand whenever I react to the'nonsense of the Nadaninos on this site.

And besides that. Personally I think my ( i knew that one) english is getting better and better.

Totally agree with scoretracker. MC should not be considered a masterstitle. It is only a 1000 serie because of where it is held. Anyway first round byes does not quit add up to the definition of fair play and equal chances so the top players are having a big advantage in those tourneys. The majors in tennis are the slams and the WTC.

What a joke! The Americans couldn't win on clay if there opponents were forced to jump around in bags. So how does that have anything to do with making this era a weak clay era. Rafa doesn't control the ATP and you sound like an ass for thinking you could convince anybody that he does. As recently as a few months ago Roger was asked if the Masters 1000 should go back to 5 sets and his answer was strongly "NO". Your credibility stinks.

Sienna - Your English is of no consequence, but don't you think your energy would be better spent supporting Fed in a positive way rather than slinging slurs at Nadal or his fans. Visit Fed sights and rejoice in all his goodness and leave Nadal sights to his fans.

hey Maya, your mouth needs a good washing out; you're just like the other Rafatards who reduce everything to name calling when they can't find a good enough explanation. If my credibility stinks, and who are you to talk, then yours is putrid.

"Visit Fed sights and rejoice in all his goodness and leave Nadal sights to his fans"

Ah, now I get it, this IS a Nadal site, so let me get this straight you Rafatards own this site? BTW, it's site NOT sights. maybe, instead of being so filthy-mouthed you could learn to spell or learn the meanikng of words before reverting and/or indulging in name-calling. Kids do that, not grown-ups, little fan girl..

hey fangirl Maya, who owns this site, before you blast Fed fans for talking about the weak era, look at fangirl holdserve, who's been harping on the weak era for weeks. This is one-sided here, the Rafa fangirls can talk as much garbage as they want, but when Fed fans retaliate, we need to visit a Fed site. I could say, why don't you go to Vamos brigade, (which says a lot by the name) and leave here, if you can't handle diverse opinions.

Maya I'm only reacting on this site because several nadanino's are trying to denigrate Fed and his impeccable reputation. It is actually guite laughable the stupid remarks you get from giving only a different oppinion or view on things. I might add all the view and oppinions are well backed up bij facts and logic. But that does not matter to you, because you must be a Fedhater.
Tell me something why does the current and soon to be dethroned #1 lash out at other great era's in tennis history. Why can't he keep the dignity of staying above the dirfferent eras and lead tennis the way it is supposed to be led. The little egomaniac he truly is. Always trying to downplay his chances and being humble which he clearly IS NOT.

As recently as a few months ago Roger was asked if the Masters 1000 should go back to 5 sets and his answer was strongly "NO". Your credibility stinks. Maya, 6/26/11 8:26 PM

Unfortunately, it's your credibility, and your memory apparently, that stinks. Our very own Johan wrote an article entitled "Federer says return to 5-set Masters finals might be nice".

Here's the link :

http://www.tennistalk.com/en/news/20110503/Federer_says_return_to _5-set_Masters_finals_might_be_nice

Thanks numero. Fangirl Maya is driven by emotions and not facts, hence, the name-calling and other nasty stuff. On her credibitlity issues, I dunno, but I'm only interested by what my banker has to state, e.g., whether I'm a credible risk or not. So her references to credibility means nothing to me. I know Nadal was very angry and vigorously complained abouit the MS tournaments being 5 sets in the finals, coz, he wanted to win them all, and 5 sets was a bit much for the poor guy. I personally think it's unfair to the past champions who won their shields by having to play 5 sets.

sienna,

what did i say?...i said that you're brilliant and a genius that's why you are calling other people "DUMB".

Nadal said. "Personally, to watch a Pete Sampras versus Goran Ivanisevic match, or one between those kind of players, is not enjoyable"

"It's not really tennis,


http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Ten...-Day-Five.aspx


Arrogant Nadal.


always annoying. always overrated.

Why hasn't this tennisnba been banned?

Fangirl Maya is driven by emotions maybe but fangirls Sienna aka torres9 and scoretracker are driven by delusions.

Why hasn't this tennisnba been banned?

holdserve, 6/27/11 4:15 PM
------
funny, I've been asking myself the same question about yYOU. Your posts are just inflammatory and are inconducive to tennis, and most of all, you are so very, very toxic.

I'm absolutely proud to be named among thos two posters! May be you should include maxi because I certainly miss her input on this site.

Sienna, ignore holdserve.

By saying that Nadal is only his main rival, Federer is way so arrogant.... so Djoko is not his rival... Murry also???? what about others... his fans really reflect him...

Yes, tettyids, I have a theory that the fans reflect their idol's thoughts. Though Fed claims to be friendly with Rafa, he has at one time or another voiced the same allegations which the fans have been repeating for years. At some level he feels the same hatred and envy which his fans are expressing.

yeah holdserve... this person who said Nadal arrogant must be from different planet... planet called hate... I agree with Nadal not because he is my idol, but absolutely watching Sampras vs Ivanevic where only serve and serve and serve is less enjoyable... compare to watch Nadal vs Murray or Djoko vs Roger and others top players... remember when Federer said that playing clay is much easier because clay does not need serve and volley..... oh my God.... thanks to Gulbis he was immediately said it's actually opposite... in clay you need to be good in everything.... especially physically...