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Cheryl Murray

  • The Roger Federer mystique

    2010-06-14 22:54:48

    Roger Federer is good for tennis – in fact, to many fans he IS tennis. His unprecedented success over the past 6 or so years has permitted to climb the ranks of not only the best tennis player of his generation, but he is considered among the best athletes of his generation – and rightly so.

    Unlike Lionel Messi, Kobe Bryant or David Villa, Federer did not have a team to lean on if he had a bad day on court. It was just him and his racket against scores of opponents on scores of surfaces – and with very few exceptions, the Swiss maestro came out on top. One could make the argument that Tiger Woods just edges Federer in the “Best of the Era” race, but even if he does, Federer still remains the most elite of the elite.

    In 2006, for example, Federer lost to exactly 2 players all season long – Rafael Nadal and Andy Murray. He won TWELVE titles, including 3 Grand Slams. It was an almost unfathomable dominance that conditioned us as fans and tennis professionals to…expect certain things.

    We expected victory unless he was playing Nadal. We expected that even if he was playing poorly (for him), he would find a way to turn a match around. We expected that when the second Sunday of a Slam rolled around, we would see Federer and…somebody. The winning and the manner that he did so created an aura of invincibility – and it seemed that only Rafael Nadal was immune.

    That aura no longer exists. He is no longer unbeatable and his opponents are no longer in awe. His two latest defeats – at the hands of men who played pigeon to Roger for YEARS – have thrown the Federer Nation into a tailspin. Robin Soderling had a much-publicized 0-12 record going into the French Open – for the Swede to beat him at a Slam prior to the semifinals was a shock to many. And on Sunday, his loss to Lleyton Hewitt, whom he had beaten 15 times in a row, ON GRASS was too much to take for some fans.

    “He should retire”, read one post on a fan message board. The sentiment was parroted on all of the main on-line tennis communities. Aspersions were cast on his eye-hand coordination, his fitness, his serve and his forehand. If one didn’t know better, one would think that he’d been losing in the first round all year.

    Just for the sake of argument, consider the following. The man WON the first slam of the year. For those keeping track, that was just 6 months ago. He has since made the quarters of the second slam of the year and goes into the third as the defending champion. It’s as though the tennis masses are suggesting that if Federer doesn't win mounds of titles, he is useless to the sport.

    Pardon me if I take offense to that. No other player is held up to that standard. One quarterfinal result in 23 slams does NOT signal retirement. A loss in the final of Halle doesn’t mean he shouldn’t bother to show up at Wimbledon.

    No, it isn’t the same as it used to be. No, we can’t just assume that Federer is going to be holding that Wimbledon trophy three weeks hence. But wouldn’t it be great if we showed the great champion the respect he deserves and let HIM decide when he wants to retire?

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Comments

I'm sorry. My mind came to a screeching halt once I read "Lionel Messi" and "David Villa." I'll try to get through this again, I'm sure it's a 10. :D

Kelli , 6/14/10 11:28 PM


LOL. Messi is enough to bring anyone to a halt......

cherylmurray , 6/14/10 11:52 PM


@kelli..LOL hahah
@cheryl...very nicely written :)

vamosrafa , 6/15/10 12:53 AM


LOL, Kelli.

Thanks for this, Cheryl. I feel like this is 2008 all over again when disrespectful "fans" were writing off Roger -- and/or what we just went through with Rafa what feels like five minutes ago, before his sweep of the clay season.

Why do fans feel like they have to savage those they call their favorites?
Forget everything that came before on which these athletes built their legacies?
I'm beginning to think some of them just have regular collective lobotomies.

mara002 , 6/15/10 2:59 AM


Mara - it's just fans being spoiled with so much success. Look at Sampras and Agassi - they played the win/lose game for YEARS before they retired.

cherylmurray , 6/15/10 4:45 AM


Nice blog cheryl, though your trademark introduction(a la tsonga's earrings) is missing. :P
These so called fans mentioned in this blog are not real fans of Roger, they are just fans of all the trophies he has collected, fans of his success.
And they would never hesitate to trashtalk him, if he loses.
At the same time there are a few genuine fans who may vent their anger by calling for retirement if their fav player continuously loses.
But the thing here is Roger has not reached that stage.
So, at this moment, all the criticism he receives from his fans is unjust.

clayking , 6/15/10 10:26 AM


cherymurray: felt so sad reading Andy was one of only two players in 2006 to beat Fed. Four years down the line what on earth has happened to Andy??!! So much talent, promise etc., I'm just hoping somehow it gets fulfilled.

deuce , 6/15/10 10:30 AM


there are a lot of talks and debates regarding federer's form these days...some are saying this might be a year where federer might not make it to a WIMBY FINAL.....i find it so HARD to digest....its almost unfathomable.....i mean SERIOUSLY....I CANT EVEN NAME ONE PERSON OTHER THAN NADAL who can beat federer on grass in a 5 setter......im pretty sure he will make it to the finals....and win it again if rafa isnt there to challenge him at the finals.....

vrael , 6/15/10 10:45 AM


deuce, don't be sad! We see how Rafa comes back to his winning ways after almost a whole year spent at the rock bottom of his career. Murray has always admire Rafa, and I'm sure what Rafa has done will serve as inspiration for Murray. At least there is someone he can look up to now when he faces with some self doubts. Murray will get back to his winning ways! (I feel the same for Nole too!) Both Murray and Nole are not in the top four for nothing!

luckystar , 6/15/10 10:48 AM


Cmon Roger! Lets take the Wimby! You can do it!

Max , 6/15/10 11:13 AM


Some people are just fair weather fans, when the ill win blows they are out of there. I think Federer will know when he can't cut it anymore, and in my opinion, once he gets to that stage it would be a good idea to stop and not tarnish the invincibility he's had for so long.

How he performs at Wimbledon will determine where he is at the moment. Rafa's crunch point was RG, if he had failed to take it, then so many questions would remain unanswered, luckily he came up trumps. Rafa's position was different because he was coming back from injury, whereas Roger's form has simply slumped, but only he will know why.

Wimbledon will answer a lot of questions.

nadline , 6/15/10 12:28 PM


Great article,

Someone who nows what he is talking about. Instead of all those other people on this forum who can even hold a racket them selves!!

taxon , 6/15/10 12:31 PM


i agree with luckystar. even someone like agassi took quite a while to win a slam and also went through slumps. i think it was only his 4th slam final attempt that he finally had to grind out a win. imagine that! then look what happened? he's one of few players to win the career slam and i think the only man to win the golden slam (olympic gold and all 4 slams). i wouldn't put anything past these the top players at the moment.

homos , 6/15/10 12:32 PM


luckystar: what a nice post, thankyou! I'm just so sad for Andy. And cheers to you too homos.

deuce , 6/15/10 12:37 PM


I've noticed that most of the Fedfans on this forum disappear when Federer is in a slump, whilst Rafans stay around and fight his corner.......quite telling.

nadline , 6/15/10 12:51 PM


@homos
Well said. I liked your post.

tj600 , 6/15/10 1:03 PM


LOL Clayking - I knew you were going to comment on my lack of pithy introduction. :)

Don't worry, it'll be back soon.

Carrie - I think the difference is that nadal's fans were never accustomed to his winning all the time. Except 2008, he never experienced the kind of dominance that Federer has.

cherylmurray , 6/15/10 2:31 PM


" The man WON the first slam of the year. " and in quite a fashion, (sorry deuce).
Federer hasn't been playing with the same intensity since his illness (lung infection); I think his level dropped there and still needs to climb. He did just reach a final and now Wimbly is just around the corner. I think we will see him in fine form.

smr , 6/15/10 2:32 PM


Fedex did have a great start to the year, but somewhere down the line he has lost his mojo ... it's his blow hot blow cold serve and forehand, his two main weapons, two crutches of his game.
It is very easy to write him off, but since mono he has never been dominant over a period of time and no reason he will be now. But its the method of defeat which is disheartening... everytime he tries to change the direction of the shot, harness the pace of make that winner - he has an error, a little difficult deep point which he tries to turn into a winner it is an error ... it is as if in a precision swiss m/c, a small cam is off target ... it needs to be tuned .. whether he plays it wrong in his mind or executes it poorly .. i don't know .. may be he needs a coach, a seasoned shoulder who can work with him ... Luthi & Mirka .. i don't think they can provide the acumen needed ...

@ cheryl .. nice article .. like your style ..

justtennis , 6/15/10 3:10 PM


Carrie - I think the difference is that nadal's fans were never accustomed to his winning all the time. Except 2008, he never experienced the kind of dominance that Federer has.

cherylmurray , 6/15/10 2:31 PM


That's my point. Rafans like Rafa full stop, win or lose. Fedfans only like his achievements, if there is nothing to brag about they have nothing to say. Fedfans also revel in putting Rafa down, if they can't do that, they go away.

nadline , 6/15/10 3:27 PM


@nadline .. it's always "some" fans .. y blame the whole lot?

justtennis , 6/15/10 3:34 PM


To be fair, not all Fed fans behave the same way. Likewise, not all Rafa fans are true fans either. Its only through difficult times that we see who are those true fans of the players.

I'm just happy that Rafa has overcome those difficult times in his career and has now see the light at the end of the tunnel. As long as he takes care of himself and his schedule, he should be fine from now on. He is reaching his prime now so he must cherish this time of his life/career and makes the most of it.

For Fed, I think that lung infection has more or less affected his training schedule, he seemed ill prepared for the past few tournaments. Fed also needs to train hard to maintain his stamina and his game 'sharpness', if not he'll lose his edge over other players. Well, grass is his favorite surface, just like clay is Rafa's, so I don't think Fed will fare badly on grass at Wimbledon.

luckystar , 6/15/10 3:52 PM


tennis is NOT one person's game. It's time for fresh air, time for a change -finally! time for new blood and new generation. Nobody should think he can dominate forever. Give all the OTHER players some respect - let's be inspired by lots of players who contribute their lifetime to the game, and pay them respectful attention and compliments as well! welcome and heartfelt congratulations to the great come backs and breakthrough talents - they deserves more admiration and media attention!

regguid , 6/15/10 4:58 PM


Sorry to take up the space but I could not resist to share with you this just published article! It's not that I want to provoke the GOAT discussion again :)

Floating The GOAT Discussion Once More
Rafael Nadal made an interesting remark as he closed his post-French Open interview with Johnny Mac on TV. He said that he had his eye on the US Open!
Does this mean that Rafa will devote some of his considerable energy and focus this year to achieving the career Grand Slam with a win at the US Open?
Might he consider not playing one of the two North American Master's Series tournaments in order to be fresh for the USO?
As Rafa is fond of saying "anything can happen," it's too soon for anything more than speculation about what such a win might mean. But the value of such speculation is the perspective that it casts on looming Wimbledon, 2010.
Consider this. For many, a player with eight major titles to their name separates the great legends of the sport from other merely greats. It may seem a bit irrational, but it is one measure that separates a say John McEnroe (only merely great) from Rod Laver (a truly great legend of the sport); its a measure that separates a Stefan Edberg from say Ken Rosewall.
If Rafa got the USO, and had:
1.Career Grand Slam,
2.Olympics gold medal in singles,
3.Davis Cup (multiple times),
4.The record for Masters Series shields,
5.The Channel Slam, (achieving the back-to-back clay and grass court majors)
6.A minimum of eight majors in his career
--- he would be one of the sport's all-time legends. If he adds to his count of majors any more than eight, and eclipses Bjorn Borg?s clay court record, then, having a significant winning record over Roger Federer, I think he should be considered for the GOAT.
Consider that Roger Federer only has three of the six items in the list above!
I'm not saying that Roger is not the GOAT. Roger is a living legend. It is a unique privilege for fans today to be able to watch him perform, as he continues to play at his peak (despite his recent loss at Halle to Lleyton Hewitt).
But these types of issues have got to be on Rafael Nadal's mind. He would never say so in public, of course. But if you are 24 years old, and have already won seven majors, you have to start looking around for things to motivate you. The great Bjorn Borg quit at the age of 26!
I can't say what is on Rafael Nadal's mind these days, nor what any great champion thinks. But if this sort of speculation occurs to me (while driving in rush hour traffic with nothing else to contemplate), surely it cannot have escaped the notice of Uncle Toni and others who work closely with Rafa.
Of course other great players are part of the up-and-coming bunch, and many commentators have noted that the next 'era' may belong to these tall guys who hit with power from the baseline, but are good movers as well: Del Potro, Soderling, Cilic, Isner, among others. This youngster from Argentina who is now playing in the US by the name of Andrea Collarini may eclipse the likes of Federer and Nadal.
But as of this writing, it is not clear that any of that crew will have the longevity that is required to build up the career statistics that are included in the list above.
What does this mean for this year's Wimbledon? It may mean that Rafa's focus is not entirely on Wimbledon. And/or that his overall goal is an overhaul of his game that may not be complete at this year's Wimbledon, but may allow him to be successful in September.
Rafa will always be motivated to win Wimbledon. But as he contemplates the potential fragility of his knees, he's got to be thinking about what is the most important thing he needs to do to cement his legacy in the sport while he can.
What an interesting 2010 it has turned out to be! How different from this time last year, when we celebrated Roger's return to the top of the game, and wondered if Rafa would ever be the same again.

natashao , 6/15/10 5:49 PM


natashao: I have just reviewed of the performance timeline stats comparing Roger and Rafa on the thread 'Federer unworried by Halle loss'. Having just seen your entry my effort would have been better posted on this thread.

ed251137 , 6/15/10 6:16 PM


natashao, thanks for posting this.

I think Wimbledon is very much on Rafa's list, he couldn't defend his title last year so it's unfinished business for him. When he came back from injury, I think he had four things on his list of things to do:

Win Madrid
Win RG
Win Wimbledon
Win USO

He probably had OZ in mind as well, but he knew he wasn't really match ready for that, and took it as far as he could; anything else will be a bonus. He might pick up Cincy or Toronto, but I don't think he'll kill himself to do so, and he'll probably even ditch one to rest for the USO which he would dearly love to add to his list.

Now is the time for Rafa to make hay whilst the other 3 in the top 4 are struggling with their form, of course there are other worthy contenders, but take Fed, Djoko and Murray out, the task becomes easier.

nadline , 6/15/10 6:19 PM


and when I think that just yesterday as devoted Rafa fan I was willing to trade USO for Wimby :) but NO, Rafa will definitely do his best to win both if he is healthy...I would love him to! And I agree with u Nadline, with all the top players struggling, this is the best time for Rafa to top them all! Vamos Rafa!!!

natashao , 6/15/10 6:37 PM


Not forgetting the defending champion of USO, Del Potro, is out with injury too. While guys like Cilic and Berdych are not ready to pose serious challenges at the slams! Davy is also just back from injury and he is normally not a regular contender at the highest level at slams. Tsonga is far too inconsistent and I doubt Verdasco can reproduce that AO 09 form to threaten Rafa. That left us with Soderling and Roddick, may be these two guys will have something to say at the USO? And the spoiler like Gulbis may do some damage too! No matter what, I have confidence that Rafa will do well at the USO this year. He is getting closer and closer to the target, its a matter of time that he wins it for real. In 2008, there was the Olympics that stood in his way; in 2009 he was just back from injury and was certainly not at his best. This year, if he manages his schedule well and arrive at the USO fresh, he should have a very good chance of winning it.

luckystar , 6/15/10 6:45 PM


I wouldn't even put Sod down as a serious threat to Rafa, forget RG 2009, too many mitigating circumstances there, Rafa just beat him 6.0 6.1 in Rome virtually the week before. Roddick is more of a threat to Rafa, when his serve is on.

nadline , 6/15/10 6:56 PM


Gosh, the playground has been deserted by Fedfans, we can post on a Fed thread about Rafa at will, and there is no one around to drive us away.

Where have they all disappeared to

nadline , 6/15/10 6:59 PM


All these dumb speculations!

First Wimbledon and the the US open. Nadal won Wimbledon once and never made a final at the US open and you guys are talking he would win Wimbledon and the US Open. I can name 5 other players who are have a bigger chance to win the US Open.
Same for the slams he has 5 RG and one Wim. and AO, it´s impressive at his age, but outside RG he has only 2 other slams.

I think that Rafa is a fantastic player but don´t get carried away!

taxon , 6/15/10 7:15 PM


taxon, nobody gets carried away. This is a tennis forum, so we are discussing tennis here. Both Fed and Rafa are the main characters in the ATP tours now. There is a real possibility of Rafa winning USO. It does not mean that he can't win it if he has not won it before. Before Wimbledon 2003, had Fed won any slam yet? Had Fed won any Wimbledon yet? Now on hindsight of course we know he can, but at the point in time did we know that he would have won 6 Wimbledon?

luckystar , 6/15/10 8:06 PM


taxon,
So who else in the current top 100 has 7 GS apart from Federer, who are better placed to win the USO than Rafa?

nadline , 6/15/10 8:08 PM


@taxon

"outside RG he has only 2 other slams".

Name any other player in the top 10 other than federer who has 2 slams apart from RG?:-))

federer will go into Wimbledon and US as the favourite and rafa will be the 2nd Favourite IMO.

atul1985 , 6/15/10 8:19 PM


@ Taxon,

Its because Rafa has already won a Wimby title that we KNOW he can win Wimby this year......lets not even think of his current form!!!!

And isnt that the same sentiment that was shared about his prospects of ever winning Wimby AND the AO?!!!!!!!!!!!................there!!!!......enough said!!!!

VAMOS!!!!!

Monalysa , 6/15/10 8:22 PM


Hello Nadline,

Players that have a better chance ( in my eyes ), Murray, Delporto ( if he is not injured ), Roddick, Berdych, Davydenko, Djokovic ( always good at the US open ).

Like i said before i think Nadal is a great player only not on hardcourt.

taxon , 6/15/10 8:29 PM


Well realistically, how many players can beat Rafa in a slam since he became no.1 in 2008? Murray, but Murray is having his own problems now. Delpo, but he is out with injury. Sod? We see what happened to him at RG this year. Fed/Nole are not in the best form of their lives. In best of 5 set matches, not many players can trouble Rafa. He is no longer the same player of 2006-2007, where there are more players who can trouble or beat him during the hard court slams.

luckystar , 6/15/10 8:29 PM


Rafa not great on hard court? So two SFs at the USO is not great? When did Roddick last reached a semifinal at the USO? His last final was 2006 USO. Davy after his injury, to beat Rafa in best of 5 set match at the USO? Berdych? Didn't Rafa beat him at IW this year? Best of 5 set match, you think Berdych has a chance?

Murray/Nole - only if they can come out of their slumps, if not I don't think they have a chance against Rafa. Sod/Cilic - only if they can out run Rafa and continuously hit their big forehands over a best of 5 sets match.

luckystar , 6/15/10 8:44 PM


taxon,
First of all Delpo will not be at the USO this year, and even if he was, he's won 1 GS on h/c same as Rafa, let's ignore the fact that Rafa had stomach injury in their SF match last year, Rafa has won a GS on all surfaces, and Delpo is not that consistent; Djokovic is not at his peak at the moment nor is Murray, and it's actually insulting for you to suggest that Berdych is better placed than Rafa to win a GS on any surface, as for Davy, if he was that good why has he never made the top 3 in the world in all the years he's been playing.

No one is saying that Rafa will definitely win the USO or Wim, all we are saying is that he stands a better chance than most, and it's not unrealistic to imagine that he could do it. Rafa won the olympic gold on h/c didn't he?

nadline , 6/15/10 9:10 PM


taxon,
It's also well known that Rafa won more matches on h/c in 2008 than any other player.

nadline , 6/15/10 9:12 PM


Yes nadline, even in 2009, Rafa has the most ranking points on hard courts, among all players, thanks to his AO 09 title.

Rafa - 5925 points from 12 tournaments (including zero point for the WTF)
Nole - 5900 points from 12 countable tournaments
Fed - 5100 points from 10 tournaments
Murray - 5060 points from 11 tournaments
Del Potro - 5375 points from 13 tournaments

luckystar , 6/15/10 9:27 PM


Lovely blog, Cheryl.

I find it hard to fathom how some people (quite a few, actually), many of them fans, love to critisize him, write him off, whenever he starts to lose. The same thing happened to Rafa, in his slump. People were, and are, so ready to write them. And what happened? Both came back with flying colors.
I have high hopes that the same thing will happen this time around - preferably at Wimbledon.

Go Roger!!

Champion7 , 6/16/10 1:15 AM


nadline, 6/15/10 6:59 PM Now you are just being naughty. Serves you right if you get your hair pulled in the playground.

Deuce: As long as Andy can refocus and find the passion to win again I'm sure you will see his name in lights one of these days. He has too much god-given talent to let it go to waste.

It would also be nice to see Djokovic enjoying his tennis again. His is another natural talent that must not be allowed to wither.

At the moment they are both discouraged by the lack of results this season but to paraphrase an old cliché 'what goes down must come up again'.

ed251137 , 6/16/10 1:17 AM


I have been on a pilgrimage to restore greatness to the greatest ;) hey everybody still fighting tooth and nail? By the way, does anyone else agree that fed and nadal should not be allowed to compete in two different tourneys at the same time? Pit them together, the greatest gladiators of our age! The Eternal Champion Vs The Hard Working Challenger, the champion on the cusp of losing his dominance, the challenger getting his second taste of being ahead of the best, it IS exciting times!

By the way hewitt beating fed aught to be a big good omen for rafans, rafa is after all the next rung of the evolutionary tree from hewitt (albeit a major leap). So fed is on the decline? I bet come next year his tally would read 18 slams and he will defend his Ao crown and start the year off with his fans dreaming about a calender slam, federer ahs too much federerness than most nay-sayers can comprehend.

Even now, he is more federer than the federest though rafa us trying his best to for a piece of federerness. 'great' is now a word in the dictionary easily substituted by 'federer' so go easy on the decline talks.. He has other priorities and has achieved almost everything conceivable, and his current mentality cannot be understood by people who have no achievements to thier name at all and live vicariously.

FEDistheGOAT , 6/16/10 3:15 AM


FIG: Great post from you. If I were Federer I would definitely invite you to be Chairman of my fan club.

ed251137 , 6/16/10 8:03 AM


Strange when some people talk about Fed, they talk as if he is the greatest person on earth. No doubt he is a great tennis player, but to say that others can't compare to him in terms of greatness is something too far fetch. There are people who are even more successful than Fed in their respective careers that I happen to know of.

luckystar , 6/16/10 9:00 AM


That is very true luckystar and you can't help but to retaliate in such a manner that will irk them further lolz.

I can even say without reservation that all tennis fans are aware that Roger is owned by Rafa and there is no greatness at all he can bring on the table ONE on ONE with Rafa? The reputation that they are trying to build for Roger (GOAT) is just simply a product of their beyond normal admiration.

Roger is just a mediocre tennis player if you put a healthy Rafa on the other side of the net. Why is that?

Fedfans, you wait up till Rafa has reached 29 of age. But even Roger is ahead, Rafa has established ALREADY a formidable win/loss ratio against Roger, THIS SHOULD NOT BE THE CASE, because the past greats used to have a winning h2h against their main rivals.

Raindrops , 6/16/10 10:43 AM


The reason I think Rafa will win a USO is that he changes his game to suit the surface.

We saw at Wimbledon and the AO that he flattened out his shots slightly, came to the net a bit more as well as delivering his usual "kill" shots against Roger. More recently he dismantled Soda at the FO with a perfect counter-punching game. It's just a matter of time before he and Uncle Toni come up with the right formula to take out the USO.

This is why Federer never has and will never beat Rafa at the FO. His game as good as it is on grass and hard court obviously needs to be modified in order to beat Rafa on clay and for some reason Roger refuses to make the change. Could it be that the years of not having a coach have come at a price??

cal23 , 6/16/10 11:08 AM


Raindrops, I'm not trying to retaliate. Just to put something in the right perspective. Fed is a great tennis champion, no doubt about that. To me his H2H against Rafa doesn't matter at this point in time. Only if Rafa ever reach Fed's level of achievement then it may become relevant. Whatever Rafa may accomplish in future, it will not dimish what Fed has already achieved. I'm not out to irritate the Fed fans, that is something I dislike doing.

luckystar , 6/16/10 11:16 AM


'diminish' instead of 'dimish', sorry for the typo mistake.

luckystar , 6/16/10 11:30 AM


Wimbledon seedings are out:

http://aeltc2010.wimbledon.org/en_GB/pdf/2010_seeds.pdf

janadevchp , 6/16/10 11:35 AM


federer seeded NO. 1

vrael , 6/16/10 11:46 AM


Ferrer being 9 is a huge surprise..
but the biggest gainer is hewitt..
he is seeded 15..
as for my juanqui, the seedings are such that he should move to 4th round..
but in his current from i have no idea what he will end up doing..

clayking , 6/16/10 11:49 AM


No surprise that Fed is seeded no.1, he should be. What about Roddick? Maybe I should go to that website to check it myself.

luckystar , 6/16/10 11:53 AM



@Raindrops


"Roger is just a mediocre tennis player if you put a healthy Rafa on the other side of the net. Why is that?"

let give some thoughts to below EASY question:

1. could rafa win more wimbledon than roger? NO?

2. Could rafa win more US OPEN than roger? NO?

3. Could rafa win more AUS OPEN than roger? NO?

4. Could rafa win more masters(ATP Finals) than roger? NO?



Now for Roger:

1. could roger win more French open than rafa? NOOO?

2. Could roger win More Master series than rafa ? unlikely !!


so beside FO, its unlikely for rafa to win any GS/ ATP Finals more than roger(even u consider both play till same age)..

and in MS .i think gap is still not wide ..but it seems Rafa will lead consider the age factor.

>> so if rafa is achieving not more than a mediocre player then u r also insulting ur fav. player!!


and about H2H ..they both didn't start playing tennis to beat each other only but they both love the game and wants to win more GS/ Titles than a better H2H against a particular player !!

mani4Tennis , 6/16/10 12:54 PM


Hello mani, can't you see that Raindrops is just joking?? Raindrops is just giving a reply/response to my post above. Why are you so serious? BTW who is to say that Rafa can't win more AO? How do you know he can't? You can look into the future? Tell me what will happen tomorrow please!

Joke aside, I'm positive that Rafa can win more AO and Wimbledon. If he manages his schedule well I don't see why he can't win. Isn't it funny that people says that Fed, at age 29, can win some more slams (presumably the Wimbldon and the USO/AO) but they don't trust that Rafa at age 24, can win some more AO/Wimbledon, and only limit Rafa to the FO. I won't be surprised that if Rafa put his heart into it, he'll win one to three more AO; maybe two more Wimbledon!! We shall see, I'm not going to predict anything as I'm not a prophet!!

luckystar , 6/16/10 1:06 PM


@luckystar...

i am also not serious .. i am just giving some facts that are most LIKELY to happen :)

as we dont know about future but can make a prediction on the basis of past!!

and about wimbledon ... rafa could win 2-3 more but more than roger ..i don't think so !!

in Aus open .... same case as above!!

US open .. alsmost sure that cann't cross roger!!

but that doesn't mean rafa is under achiever or roger is overachiever! .. both has achieved alot in tennis by their hardwork and entertain fan like us !

mani4Tennis , 6/16/10 1:19 PM


mani,
rafa can win more AO than Roger..
Roger has 4 AO..
and it looks unlikely he will add any more to his kitty..
now, rafa already has won on AO..
the courts in AO are slower than US hardcourts, thus suiting rafa's style more..
and you yourself has mentioned rafa can win 2-3 more AO (u said same cae as above)
that means he can have 4 titles in your estimation..
so even by your estimation rafa already equals roger..
so there is a good chance rafa ends with more AO than roger..

clayking , 6/16/10 1:34 PM


@clayking
thats unlikely tho. There are so many up and coming players who are capable of beating him on hard courts.(you could say they are all inconsistent,but you dont need to be consistent to get hot and knock a top seed out,as Soderling has shown these past 2 yrs) My estimate is 2 and maybe 3 AO. But we will see.

tj600 , 6/16/10 1:38 PM


No point arguing, I think. Rafa may surpass all expectations, or he may not. I just wish that he is healthy and play tennis for as long as possible, most importantly, he has to enjoy playing tennis!

luckystar , 6/16/10 1:43 PM


point noted luckystar..
the important thing is rafa does well by staying healthy....

clayking , 6/16/10 1:52 PM


Mani............there is no way you can possibly put the words 'underachiever' and 'Rafa' in the same sentence!!!!!!

And I think it is pointless to say how many more titles Rafa will win in the future because you guys have shown time and time again that you SUCK when it comes to making predictions!!!!.......we saw it recently with the FO!!!......so stop it!!

Raindrops, i agree with you totally about the h2h (Rafa/Roger). This will be a MAJOR blimp on Roger's legacy!!!.........its such a shame! No one wants to say that but regardless of how many titles Roger wins, it cant be overlooked the dent Rafa has had on Roger's trophy collection! Esp after 2005. That is why you cant speak of Roger if you DONT mention Rafa!!!! Federer's fans hate to admit this but it is a fact and this 15:7 h2h is just too glaring to be missed!!!

Part of Rafa's legacy, and fittingly so, would be the one who was able to beat the best of the best (so called GOAT) consistently throughout his career (on ALL surfaces too!!), while most of the time being at No.2!

In my opinion, i think it is quite futile discussing who is better, Fed or Rafa, because they both have remarkable strengths AND weakness. Their achievements are stellar, Rafa during his relatively young age and short tenure on the tour and Federer throughout his career. Neither man can be diminished, and is hardly fair to discuss one without discussing the other!!!

Monalysa , 6/16/10 8:31 PM


Although being almost 29 years old Federer is still a FORCE on the ATP tour. I hope he'll stay around for a while. And when HE DECIDE to withdraw I will sorely miss him, not only because of his game, but because he's one of the most civilized athletes of his generation.

milivice , 6/16/10 10:43 PM


mani4Tennis,

I said ONE on ONE, Rafa vs. Roger on tennis court, do not involve any other player but what you do is the usual act of fedfans of enumerating what Roger has accomplished in Tennis against all players except Nadal.

So go back to my simple rant (lolz), during the peak of Roger, Rafa managed to kick his ass in so many occassions. NOW tell me, do you honestly believe that Roger CAN reverse the sore h2h at the age of 29?

I'll give you a clue mani4tennis, that already sore h2h will get much uglier from this time forward, that's certain because Roger is getting old while Rafa is just mounted to the Prime Zone. One thing not certain is your estimation if Rafa can win more slams than Roger. That's not my point anyway, my point is Rafa vs. Roger on court ONE on ONE, wasn't it right when I say Roger is just a mediocre player to Rafa?

Raindrops , 6/17/10 5:55 AM


"That's not my point anyway, my point is Rafa vs. Roger on court ONE on ONE, wasn't it right when I say Roger is just a mediocre player to Rafa?"

Raindrops, 6/17/10 5:55 AM

Forgive me for replying to a post not directed at me, but I disagree with you here, Raindrops. I highly doubt Rafa regards Roger as a mediocre player one on one, except on clay, where he probably regards most as, well, not mediocre, (I don't think so, anyway), but definitely not nearly as good as him. On hard and grass courts, however, I think Rafa would regard Roger as formidable, perhaps (PERHAPS) even slightly superior on occasion. The head to head certainly seems to reflect that, don't you think? That could change in the future of course. But not, I think, anytime soon.

Champion7 , 6/17/10 6:17 AM


Champion7,

As Rafa used to say, he does not understimate all players when he comes cross on the otherside of the net, so he treated Roger and the rest of the players just the same and play will to win the match. No intangible "perhaps" or "regards" to talk about because what matter most is the concrete "result" that tell us who is better. However, I would somehow agree to you Champion7 that Rafa may have a high regard for Roger (he was No.1 for so long and he's the man to beat anyway) that's why Rafa is having a successful h2h against Roger, BUT (here is the rebuttal) If I apply the same notion of yours to Roger, do you accept that Roger did not "regard" Rafa as a good player inspite of losing to the same man sooooo often? Bear in mind that Roger has a winning h2h vs. Rafa on Grass ONLY (2-1).

Raindrops , 6/17/10 6:55 AM


I think once Roger and Rafa are both retired we can compare their careers and see who's the greatest! For now, even though I'm a huge Rafa fan, it's obvious that Roger has achieved way more specially in terms of GS won.
Anyway, you can't explain why you just LOVE a player and no matter what, even if Rafa never wins a GS again we'll just LOVE him for who he his and what he has already achieved.
And I think it's the same for all the real Roger fans. The people that say that he should retire just have nothing better to say and are NOT fans!

leila28 , 6/17/10 7:53 AM


Raindrops,

OK... I don't really understand what you're saying. My post was directed at your statement, "Roger is just a mediocre player to Rafa." Perhaps I am misreading it, but to me - I apologize if I am mistaken - this implies that you think that Rafa see's Federer as a mediocre player whenever they play one another. The definition of mediocre is: Moderate to inferior in quality; ordinary. I find that hard to believe, given what I know about Nadal. I feel that he would at least consider Roger his equal on hard and grass. Would you agree with that assumption?

"As Rafa used to say, he does not understimate all players when he comes cross on the otherside of the net, so he treated Roger and the rest of the players just the same and play will to win the match."

That makes sense, but does that mean Rafa would regard him as mediocre? No, I don't think so. In my opinion, what Rafa meant by that was that anyone can beat anyone at any given time, so it is best to treat them all the same; never underestimate anyone at all.

"If I apply the same notion of yours to Roger, do you accept that Roger did not "regard" Rafa as a good player inspite of losing to the same man sooooo often?"

I'm sorry... what exactly is my notion? I don't think Roger would ever underestimate Rafa, particularly given Rafa's record against him and Rafa's own accomplishment. Rafa is just as good as Roger on grass and hard, and it is a 50-50 chance either could win when they match up, depending on form, weather, circumstances.

Does that make any sort of sense?

Champion7 , 6/17/10 9:28 AM


Raindrops,

"If I apply the same notion of yours to Roger, do you accept that Roger did not "regard" Rafa as a good player inspite of losing to the same man sooooo often?" Raindrops.

"I think Rafa would regard Roger as formidable, perhaps (PERHAPS) even slightly superior on occasion." (Me)

Is this what you were replying to? Oh. Well, if that is the case, allow me to retract that slightly. I don't really think Rafa would go into a match think someone is 'superior' to him, regardless of the surface. That would be a bad mindset, and I highly doubt Nadal would ever think that. Rather, I think Nadal would go into such a match just the same as any other match - confident that his chances are good, though by no means underestimating his opponent.

Of course, this is all hypothetical. I have no way of knowing what Rafa would really think, or even if Rafa really does not regard Roger as mediocre. I think the chances are good that he doesn't, however. :)

Champion7 , 6/17/10 10:22 AM


In spite of the patent mutual respect for each other, I have the feeling Roger has always been puzzled that Rafa can beat him (even on clay). His body language often tells you that both during and at the end of the match. He genuinely does not seem to have figured out how and why Rafa gets the better of him: and it's this puzzlement which give rise to some of the unfortunate post match comments which rile Rafans and have earned him the reputation for arrogance.

ed251137 , 6/17/10 10:24 AM


ed251137.......great post!!!!

vrael , 6/17/10 10:28 AM


What I belive Fed still have a very good chance to make it all the way to wimby .

And UO is still far away and he will have good time to prepaire for it and Fed is still the man to beat in UO, he has made 6 finals in a row which is not a joke.

Nadal on the other hand dont play his best in UO.An in form Novak or Murray or Roddick can beat him(they should be in good form to that).

champ00289 , 6/17/10 10:41 AM


yes and here's more.

"""I'm sorry... what exactly is my notion?""" -----> I highly doubt Rafa regards Roger as a mediocre player one on one, except on clay, where he probably regards most as, well, not mediocre, (I don't think so, anyway), but definitely not nearly as good as him."""

I did not make any assumption that Rafa regards Roger as a mediocre player, I said it peronnally based on their One on One. In your case, you went on to dig what Rafa may think about Roger when they play each other. I am talking based on how they played "not" what they think towards each other and 14-7 is a mediocre result no matter what regardless of surfaces. They both have favorite surfaces so putting out clay on the equation just to equalize the "mediocre thing" is a cheat.

Raindrops , 6/17/10 10:42 AM


Roger has given more than enough moments of joy for his fans winning 3 of the 4 slams year by year. its time for us fans to support him back when hes going through the bad phase ( not exactly he won this years AO !!) . Cmon Roger Lets take the Wimby! Cheers!

Max , 6/17/10 11:00 AM


Right Max,

Every true Roger Fan will always support him.

He is not playing bad but it is just like he is not playing upto his potential(Which is untouchable by any other player on tour).

champ00289 , 6/17/10 11:46 AM


Hmm, champ, you sure he is untouchable? I remember a certain lefty beat him on a hard court final in 2006 Dubai, when Fed was at his peak and playing very well then! Dont tell me he was not playing at his potential then (he just won AO that year), as I saw the match on DVD a few times and Fed was playing very well, his forehand and backhand were firing well. That lefty had beaten him then in three sets. Also a young Scot had defeated Fed that same year at Cincy. So, whoever he is, be it Fed or Rafa, they are all beatable and definitely not untouchable.

luckystar , 6/17/10 12:52 PM


Everyone loses one day and thats the fact.Nadal is only exception.

And about Murray everyone knows what Fed did it with him in two GS Finals.IN AO 2010 when Murray was playing very well he lost in straight sets.And that lost caused a lot problem than anyone would have expected.

champ00289 , 6/17/10 1:53 PM


When I started following Tennis pete was retiring and after sometime Fed come and I saw many players and for me Fed is the most accomplished tennis player of them.

His serve (Not as fast as Rod but still provide him the advantage that one needs)Serve and volley
His Body,his Legs (Not as atheletic as Nadal but still among the best till he was 26 27)
His mind(Undoubtadely the biggest weapon for him for so long)

Nadal on the otherhand has the power that hardly anyone would have.
His stamina is unanswerable.Whenever his oponent think he will get a winner of this shot , the ball come backs to him.It looks like he will going to run the whole day with ease.

champ00289 , 6/17/10 2:04 PM


Fed will always be the benchmark for the generations to come.

He is the one who have won 5 straight wimby and USO.4 AO and only 1 FO but he manages to reach 4 final in a row.

He improved really well on clay which made him the player who can dominate on all the court.

Nadal becomes the spoiler for his CV for FO.

But Nadal's presence has given all the tennis FANS one of the best rivalries of all time.

champ00289 , 6/17/10 2:10 PM


*Nadal becomes the spoiler for his CV for FO*

Time will tell if he is only a "spoiler" not a shredder.

Raindrops , 6/17/10 3:01 PM


Nothing is absolute. Before Fed, Sampras was the benchmark. Who knows who will be the benchmark in future. Players come and go, and the future generations are always better than the previous.

Rafa is not a spoiler. It is insulting to call him a spoiler. He is a great tennis player in his own right. He is also on his way to legendary status if he can win more slams and get a career grand slam. Who knows how many more slams Rafa can achieve. I'm not going to speculate, but I'll be a happy fan if one day I see him having his own legacy and become one of the legends of the game.

luckystar , 6/17/10 3:19 PM


Nadal is undoubtadely a very good player(Specially a great athlete, what tennis fan might have never seen),he can still achieive more slams.

"Nadal becomes the spoiler for his CV for FO" what I mean for this comment was if Nadal wouldn't have come at this time then Fed would have had 4 more FO.

As he lost to him in 3 Finals and 1 Semi.

Nadal is the player who fight for every single point he plays.Whether he is serving or his oponent.

He fight from the word go till the end.With all the respect to Nadal that he deserves.

champ00289 , 6/17/10 4:08 PM


But I dont think many people would belive that Nadal will play at the same way as he is playing now till he is 28 or 30.

Because he puts a lot of effort and energy for almost every point and his body may give up earlier than expected(But till than he would have achieved many slams , Masters).

champ00289 , 6/17/10 4:18 PM


He people here a interview from Toni Nada, i posted it beforel. Al thos people saying Nadal is better are wrong. I thin Nadal is a fantastic player only not as alround as Federer.

Here interview from toni Nadal

Q: Can Federer be the best player in the world if there is another one who beats him two of every three times they play?

A: He can, just like somebody like Messi can be tactically suppressed by another player of a lesser level. Although that's not the case with my nephew Rafael, who does have a quite high level and can carry the tactical initiative.

Q: Explain us, mister coach: Is it because he hits to Federer's backhand?

A: Rafa focuses his game on Federer's backhand, indeed, but one can't just hit the same shot everytime. But he does throw him off his rhythm and timing, and sometimes he forces him to make rushed choices.

Q: But if Federer is the GOAT...

A: I don't know if Roger is the GOAT, it's impossible to compare. Although I would narrow it down to Federer and Rod Laver. Roger is indeed the best player of our time. And Rafael suffers against players below his own ranking too: Davydenko, for example.

Q: Brad Gilbert said your nephew Rafael could win 30 Masters...

A: Ha, ha... let's take it easy. It's taken us a lot to go this far; it will take a lot more to go that far.


Here is the source

http://www.as.com/tenis/articulo/federer-rafael-lleva-inicia tiva-tactica/dasten/20100518dasdaiten_2/Tes

taxon , 6/17/10 4:29 PM


Don't worry. Rafa is not stupid. He won't run for every point now, he'll only do it selectively. Just look at how he played this whole clay season. There were many times when his opponents threw him some drop shots. Those that he knew he would not be able to get to, he would just let them go. Its only the important points that he would chase after. He conserved his energy for the important matches like the FO final. He knew he had to get to as many balls as possible in order to control the points against Sod. Against other type of players, he may not need to do so.

Why do people still have the old mindset that Rafa will run after every ball, and fail to see the changes in his game? I guess that's the difference between fans and non-fans. Fans will always detect or spot any change(s) in their player's games, whilst non fans may not be bothered to look into the details.

Its just like non fans keep saying that Rafa can't deal with the big flat hitters, because he lost to some of them on the hard courts in the past, players like Berdych/Blake/Youzhny/Gonzo, but they failed to see that right now Rafa has a positive H2H against all these players, even on the hard court. Some keep mentioning Sod and Delpo, even Nole and Davy, because they had beaten Rafa recently on the hard courts. They failed to take into consideration that Rafa then was still finding his way back to his top form after his injuries. Before his injury last year, on the hard court, his H2H with Davy was 1-2, with Nole 3-4, with Sod 0-0, and with Delpo 1-1; definitely not as bad as some here thought. I'm looking forward to him facing all these players again on the hard court and tilt the H2H in his favor.

luckystar , 6/17/10 4:44 PM


@luckystar
yes. but some of those wins over delpo and nole,were before they became top players I THINK.

tj600 , 6/17/10 4:51 PM


taxon, this interview is not new. I think most of us had already read about it before.

Based on results so far, of course Fed is better than Rafa, but who knows how much more Rafa can still improve in the future? I won't be surprised that once Rafa hit his prime and in top form, he may dominate the tours just like what Fed did, but his dominance may not be as long as Fed's. As his fan, I certainly would like to see that he has a positive H2H against every single player on tour that he had played against. That way, he would not be subjected to all these arguments about H2H that Fed is being subjected to now!!

For now, I'll just sit back, relax and watch Rafa plays his tennis matches and enjoy every moment of it.

luckystar , 6/17/10 4:53 PM


Novak is the only player right now who has beaten top three players in three matches before he reaches at # 3.It was Nadal , Roddick , and Federer

champ00289 , 6/17/10 4:58 PM


oh,they werent. all of those wins b4 they became top players were on clay and grass,not hard. And unforturnately,i doubt you will get your wish. The reason being that Delpos injured,novaks playing crap,and davy is back from injury.(tho he might find his form in he hard court season) and if nadal plays novak in a hard court event,it will most likely mean that nole is back in form,as he would have had to make it to the semis. I would give an in form novak the edge over nadal on hard courts though(regardless of how well he is playing). As for Davy,nadal would win as he cant blow him off the court. Im not sure about Del potro though.

tj600 , 6/17/10 4:58 PM


Wrong tj, I'm talking about hard court H2H.

Rafa had beaten Nole at the Olympics in 2008, one week before that Nole had beaten Rafa at the Cincy SF. Prior to that, Rafa had beaten Nole at IW final 2007, and one week later Nole had beaten Rafa at the QF of Miami and went on to win his first Masters shield. Nole had also beaten Rafa at Montreal 07 semi and went on to beat Fed in the final for his second Masters shield. Rafa had also beaten Nole at the TMC in 2007, though Nole was an exhausted man by then. Rafa and Nole had not met on the hard court during the early part of 2009. They met on hard courts only after Rafa came back from injury in the second half of 2009 and Rafa had lost three times in a row to Nole then.

Rafa had beaten Delpo at the IW QF in 2009; one week later Delpo beat Rafa at the QF of Miami. Rafa was leading in the third set by 3-0 and he still went on to lose the set in the tie break, and hence lost the match. According to Rafa, that was an amazing disaster.

So, Rafa's H2H versus all these players are not as bad as many here thought. Rafa was obviously affected by his injury, his confidence and his stamina issues when he came back from his injuries.

luckystar , 6/17/10 5:10 PM


yes,i corrected my self in my 6/17/10 4:58 PM post. And that loss to Delpo wasnt bad,you could argue that it was going to be a disaster for Delpo as well as he was up by a set and a break and then allowed Nadal back into the match. He just displayed the mental toughness that would see him beat a 15 time grand slam champion in his first final later on in that year. But I would still give the edge to Novak IF hes at his best against Nadal on hard. As for Delpo,im not sure as he might change his style when he comes back.(alto i seriousl doubt it)

tj600 , 6/17/10 5:15 PM


tj, in a best of 5 set match, I doubt Nole can beat a top form Rafa. Same with Delpo. Rafa can outlast them. Rafa and Nole had not met in a hard court slam. If they can meet each other, that means they have played well enough to meet in either the semi or the final. A top form Rafa is very hard to beat at a slam semi or final, even on a hard court, just ask Verdasco and Fed. We had read too much into that semifinal match between Delpo and Rafa at the USO 09. Rafa then was definitely not in the best form. I doubt a fit and top form Rafa will lose so badly to Delpo in a best of 5 set match. Chances are Rafa will move Delpo around the court; he can surely take inspiration from the way Davy play against Delpo at the WTF final last year, and also his own match against Sod at the FO final.

luckystar , 6/17/10 5:20 PM


I read about Nole that once he had serve like the best in the buisness.

Whenever he is 0-30 or 15-40 or 30-40 then comes the bang.

A very big first serve which takes him out of the trouble.It is misssing right now.

Even i think Nole can give Nadal a very tough competition in hard court even on clay he has forced nadal to play very tough sets

champ00289 , 6/17/10 5:36 PM


champ00289, Nole against Rafa on clay. That depends on which Rafa you are referring to. The 2008 version of Rafa? No chance. The 2009 version, close but still lost. The 2010 version, closer than 2008 but not as close as 2009, hence Nole still lost.

On hard court, the 2008 version of Nole against Rafa, Nole wins. The 2009/2010 version of Nole - Rafa wins. Unless Nole finds his serve and his form, Rafa will beat him if they meet later on this year. The 2009 AO version of Rafa vs 2008 AO version of Nole, ahmm, that will be interesting!

luckystar , 6/17/10 5:46 PM


@lucky
whoever said the match would go to 5 sets? Novak is definitely capable of beating nadal in 3 or 4 sets on hard-even if nadal is in top form. But he isnt right now,and has to find his serve. But its only inevitable that he will catch fire at some point;and he will eventually sort his serving problems out.

tj600 , 6/17/10 6:08 PM


@tj600....nadal at his best will take nole to 5 on a hard court easily.....no one beats a 100% nadal in 3.......4 maybe!!

VAMOS!!!

vrael , 6/17/10 7:01 PM


Sorry tj, I don't buy that. You are saying Nole can play as well as Verdasco at the AO 09? The Nole of AO 08 maybe, still he'll need five sets to deal with Rafa of AO 09. So you think Rafa would play like the USO 09 SF? No way if Rafa is fit and in top form.

Chances are we won't be seeing the Nole of AO 08, neither will we see the Rafa of AO 09. They will have to tough it out when they meet at a hard court slam, it won't be a straight set victory. The Rafa now is not the same as the one of AO 07 or AO 08, or USO 06 or 07. Back then Rafa was still playing a clay court game on a hard court. See, you people's opinion of Rafa's hard court game stopped at that AO 08 SF. I think Rafa must win all hard court masters, the AO and the USO a few times and the year end championship a few times before people can recognize his skills on the hard courts!!

I wonder why people don't question Nole or Delpo for that matter. Nole has one AO, four Masters on hard and the year end championship. Rafa has one AO, five Masters on hard and an Olympics gold medal on hard court. Is Rafa that far off from Nole? And stop talking about H2H on hard, they are close too, before Rafa's injury last year.

luckystar , 6/17/10 7:19 PM


Yeah and so Nole can caught fire but Rafa can't?? I think Rafa did caught fire at the IW 07 and Dubai 06 tournaments too! And I'm not even talking about Rafa on clay, or grass. (remember FO 08? or even Wimby 08?)

luckystar , 6/17/10 7:50 PM


I would like to pose a question to all of the posters here?

If you keep beating someone in a sport.....any sport...............on a consistent basis........would you accept if people say that the other person is better than you?!!

Could someone please explain to me the logic in this?!

I would certainly agree that Federer has achieved more than Rafa, esp in terms of GS, and of course bcos Fed has been on the circuit A LOT longer. Federer's game style gives him a lot more longevity compared to Rafa's, and Federer seems more talented because clearly he has had A LOT more practice than Rafa given how long Fed has been at it.

But please spare me Fed is the best!!!!...........HE IS NOT!...........he gets beaten ALL the time by Rafa!!! No one has been able to beat Federer as often as Rafa has, and that is why we keep having this ongoing STUPID conversation because many of us fail to admit the obvious!!!

Gosh man...........give it a rest!!!!

VAMOS!!!

Monalysa , 6/17/10 9:13 PM


And another point I would like to make..............Rafa has been the ONLY player who has been able to topple Federer off that #1 perch in all of the 50 years that he has enjoyed it!!!!!!!!!!

For much of 2009 into 2010 Rafa was not in form, he lost the #1 ranking.......and guess what?........Federer regained the #1 spot and NO ONE was able to topple him during that time..........people had chances but they never took it.....not Nole, Not Murray, no one!! Now that Rafa is back in form, just within a matter of weeks he was able to take back the #1 ranking.............and yet still, we are talking about who is better!!!!............this is just beyond rediculous!!!!

All this talk about Nole, Delpo, Davy beating Rafa on hard court is just baseless!!! If they are that good why the hell are they still so far from ever being #1!!!.......I dare then to try!!!

Monalysa , 6/17/10 9:34 PM


tj600 , 6/17/10 6:08 PM


I disagree with you take on Nole getting back his form. He has had quite some time to sort out his problems. He fired his coach, Todd Martin. That didn't help. He is still struggling with his serve, double faulting way too much. No one knows if his allergies or breathing problems or whatever it was, has been resolved.

Nothing is inevitable. Either Nole figures out what's going on with him, and the serve is only part of it, or he continues to struggle. He has these mental walkabouts in matches, dropping a set, and at RG finally Melzer made him pay. Nole was up two sets and only had to win one more. He couldn't get it done. That's not good news. It's not only the fact that you aren't winning, it's HOW you are losing and to WHOM.

Nole will not beat Rafa on any surface at this time, given their respective forms. The other comment I wanted to make, is that this incessant need to bring up Delpo and say if only he wasn't injured then Rafa wouldn't be #1 or won RG, as though he was destined to dominated tennis because of his win over Fed at last year's US Open, is beyond annoying. The guy is only 21 and has undergone wrist surgery for a very serious injury. We don't when he will be back and what kind of player he will be. Right now his future is up in the air. However, to make the argument that he would have done all these things IF he had been healthy, is insulting to Rafa and what he has accomplished. I will say it right here - no one was going to beat Rafa at this year's RG, and that includes even a Delpo healthy and playing his best!

Nativenewyorker , 6/17/10 10:08 PM


Yes NNY agree with you about Delpo. Its really annoying when you consider Delpo haven't even won anything major on clay (not even one masters on clay), and yet people put him up there as if he'll beat Rafa on clay when they meet. Its beyond ridiculous to even suggest that. Just because he pushed Fed to five sets at RG, and just because a hard hitter like Sod had beaten Rafa for the first time at RG, those Rafa detractors are so happy, as if they can finally find somebody, in the form of Delpo, that can beat or threaten Rafa on clay regularly. They are hoping for a nemesis for Rafa, just like what Rafa is to Fed. Sorry to all these Rafa detractors, the answer is NO WAY!

Rafa has shown us at this FO once and for all that not even a hard hitter like Sod can beat him when he is fit and healthy, even though Sod had beaten Fed en route to meeting Rafa in the final. Beating Fed on clay does not equate to beating Rafa on clay, we see Nole beating Fed on clay and yet failed to beat Rafa. Delpo is no better than Sod or Nole on clay. Hope this FO final will silence all these Rafa detractors.

luckystar , 6/17/10 10:40 PM


Roger is the one who gets a beat down by everyone these days, and if Delpo is a threat to Rafa, he is also a threat to Roger as are Benneteau, Montanes, Hewitt, Simon, Tsonga, Berdych, Soderling, Davydenko etc. Roger is the one who has hardly got past the 3rd round recently, and Rafa is the one who won 3 straight masters and 1 GS in a row just this year.

Roger tanked his RG match because he did not want another beatdown from Rafa in the final.

nadline , 6/17/10 11:05 PM


nadline, that was a very unbecoming comment. If we say that we are rafa fans, we should learn to emulate our idol in some ways, especially in respect shown to others.

rafanadalfanforever , 6/17/10 11:41 PM


nadline: As you know, I enjoy your contributions enormously and normally we are singing from the same song sheet. But I was shocked by your above entry. If I were you I would retract it immediately or preferably ask the administrators to pull it from this site.

ed251137 , 6/18/10 12:53 AM


Raindrops, 6/17/10 10:42 AM

Oh! Now I understand what you're saying. I am sorry for the (my) misunderstanding. I completely misunderstood what you were trying to say (sorry!).

Champion7 , 6/18/10 1:07 AM


@NNY
we were talking about hard courts-not clay. But yes,Del Potro wouldnt beat nadal at RG. But for Novak,his serve his slowly coming back,but bcoz of the Todd Martin disaster,he has lacked his self confidence. IF he gets his serve back(which I think I will by the end of the year) then his game will most likely come back as the serve is so critical to anyone. If he returns to his best,I maintain I would give him the edge on hard courts. But he is the sort of player who does get hot for periods of time.(like in the fall last year)

tj600 , 6/18/10 1:34 AM


wow!
so many permutations and combinations are going on and i missed them!!
well, about my views..
nadal vs nole on H/Cs with guys at their best.(i.e. nadal of 2008 and nole of late 2007-2008).. Nole in a best of 3, Nadal in a best of 5
nadal vs delpo on H/Cs with guys at their best (i.e. nadal of 2008 and delpo of 2009).. Delpo in a best of 3 and at US open, Nadal at AO

now Monalysa at 6/17/10 9:13 PM asked this..
"If you keep beating someone in a sport.....any sport...............on a consistent basis........would you accept if people say that the other person is better than you?!!"

some examples from tennis-
miloslav mecir has a h2h of 7-4 against mats wilander. but we all know wilander is a much better player
krajicek has a 6-4 h2h against sampras. never have i heard that krajicek is better.
becker is 25-10 against edberg. At the end of the day, Edberg is considered to be the better player on comparing their careers.
I can come up with more, but this should get the point home..

Bottomline- rafa has a 14-7 h2h against fed, but the evidence of present says fed is the better player.

P.S. its another matter that rafa has a good chance of overtaking fed when he retires and at the end of his career may end up as the greater player.

clayking , 6/18/10 6:45 AM


Clayking, do u mean Rafa of early 2009? I believe Rafa was at his best on the hard court at the AO 09. In 2008 he is still not as good. I agree when they are at their best, Rafa will beat Delpo more than Delpo beating him, at the AO. At the USO it is the reverse.

luckystar , 6/18/10 7:00 AM


No problem Champion7.

"""Roger tanked his RG match because he did not want another beatdown from Rafa in the final. nadline, 6/17/10 11:05 PM

LMAO Nadline, you post it in the wrong thread woman, there is a thread called "SCARED to face Rafa" haha

Raindrops , 6/18/10 7:46 AM


"""Bottomline- rafa has a 14-7 h2h against fed, but the evidence of present says fed is the better player.

Clayking, we are talking about h2h but it always ends up with total accomplishment that's why all people (inlcuding myself) will say Fed is better.

If that is the case, why don't we apply "accomplishment per age". Rafa at the age of 23, has already inflicted that 14-7 h2h against Roger. Now with that h2h try to couple it with the overall accomplishments or Roger and Rafa at the age of 23 then let's see who the better player overall.

Raindrops , 6/18/10 8:19 AM


luckystar,
Well, I meant rafa of late 2008.
Actually, I do not think that there was much difference between rafa of 2008 sept and rafa of jan 2009..
it was simply that he did not excel in US hardcourts while he excelled in the slower H/Cs of AO..
so, basically it was the same rafa..

rain,
well, monalysa asked how can a player be a better player if he keeps losing to another player. I gave those examples and showed how it can be so.
Of course fed is the better player, rafa just being a bad matchup to him. It is just like davy, who is a bad matchup to rafa on hard courts but is far away from the leagues of nadal. Now rafa is not far away from fed's league but he is still not there.
Speaking of accomplishments per age, it is only after considering the age factor that i used the phrase "the evidence of present" (by which i meant currently fed is the better guy). I also said in my P.S. that he can overtake fed once he retires, when the age factor won't matter. any other talk of fed being mediocre in front of rafa and all simply ends in the fact that rafa is a bad matchup to fed.

clayking , 6/18/10 10:24 AM


clayking,

Regarding "bad match up" I would agree with you if Rafa is a non grandslam winner just like the case of Davy & Nadal. Davy has yet to win GS so the bad match up is applicable here though the h2h between them is not as skewed as Rafa vs. Roger. If we see Rafa has a lot of poor h2h with the rest of his peers then the "bad match up" is perfectly suited. IMO.

Raindrops , 6/18/10 11:02 AM




nadline, that was a very unbecoming comment. If we say that we are rafa fans, we should learn to emulate our idol in some ways, especially in respect shown to others.

rafanadalfanforever , 6/17/10 11:41 PM


Whys should we sit back and have Rafa belittled by Fedfans all the time that he'll be beaten by all Tom, Dick and Harry when Federer himself doesn't have a clean sheet. They need a taste of their own medicine to see what it feels like when your favourite player is continously being put down and all his achievements being ignored.

nadline , 6/18/10 11:11 AM


As rafa is a slam winner unlike davy, what are you suggesting rain??
that rafa's case is not of bad matchup, but that he is better than fed??
speaking of age factor, i have already said rafa may end up as the better player.
But if you are saying rafa is currently the better player, sorry rain, we have to disagree. As much i prefer rafa over fed, i cannot say rafa is the better player as of now. rafa has some catching upto do, (and once i again i say, in future, he can do that catching up)

clayking , 6/18/10 11:14 AM




nadline: As you know, I enjoy your contributions enormously and normally we are singing from the same song sheet. But I was shocked by your above entry. If I were you I would retract it immediately or preferably ask the administrators to pull it from this site.

ed251137 , 6/18/10 12:53 AM


Of course that was tongue in cheek, there is a whole thread devoted to this subject on this site.

nadline , 6/18/10 11:18 AM


clayking, has it occurred to you that Rafa by the second half of the year, is always not as 'fresh' as he is at the beginning of the year? That explains why he generally does well during the NA hard court season at the beginning of the year. By second half of 2008, his hard court game had reached new heights, winning Toronto, Olympics, and getting to the SFs of Cincy, USO and Madrid, and QF of Paris before retiring with injury. Come the second half of 2010, if Rafa remains 'fresh', I foresee better results for him during the NA hard court swing, and maybe even the Asian hard court swing. All he needs is sufficient rest. Having played fewer tournaments this year to date, I think he should be well rested before the NA hard court swing begins. I'm looking forward to better results for him this time, even better than his 2008 results.

luckystar , 6/18/10 11:42 AM


luckystar,
Do you know that after the grass season, Nadal in 2008 took a 5 week rest?? and when not injured, nadal always gets a 5 week during the year end as well. At 2008 year end, he got a 8 week rest due to injury. So that freshness you refer to was the freshness gained by 3 extra weeks of rest. But in normal circumstances, he will get a 5 week rest during both H/C swings.
So, when not injured, he is equally fresh when he begins NA H/C swing as when he begins Australian H/C swing. and so the argument of not being fresh during beginning of NA H/C swing is invalid

clayking , 6/18/10 12:02 PM


So, my point is that physically rafa is fresh while playing both H/C swings and there is no tiredness.
So, the difference in results during NA H/C swing and Australian H/C swing is not due to tiredness in 2nd half of year, but duue to the fact that the surfaces in Australia are slower and help rafa more.
Now this time, rafa may post better results in USO because now he has become a more mature player..
but the fact remains he would still be weaker on US H/Cs than on Australian H/Cs

clayking , 6/18/10 12:06 PM


*As rafa is a slam winner unlike davy, what are you suggesting rain??

Like you said, Davy is far from Nadal League's, as Nadal is a multiple slam winners and a No. 1 player too just like Federer. It is so happen that Federer is ahead of time and Nadal can offer only a 23 yrs of career accomplishment to Roger's 29 that's why the h2h is disregarded even it says a lot that Roger lost awful lots to his main rival Rafa, a multiple GS winners and currently No. 1.

We are here to agree or disagree that's alright with me clayking, I am just hoping Rafa may win more tournaments big & small until he calls it quit so that loss/win will be fully recognized.

Raindrops , 6/18/10 12:34 PM


rain,
sorry, but I still did not get your point..
according to you, is rafa currently better than roger or not??
my point is just that rafa as of now, is not better than roger..
otherwise I agree with you on everything including the age factor, and that eventually rafa maybe the better player..

clayking , 6/18/10 12:40 PM


clayking,

Age factor, yes Rafa is better player than Roger. Rafa has hold and surpassed some records i.e. MS1000, Olympics GM, Longest Streak on a surface Monte Carlo and lot more, that a 29 y/o Roger is supposed to accomplished it ahead of Rafa, but the case is reverse, Rafa did it at his young age of 23 (in the presence of Roger) and it is very promising for Rafa.

And that h2h and toppling from the top spot is very telling.

What Rafa needs to do now is to work harder to win more tournaments specially GS as it becomes now the measuring stick to gauge superiority over one another. In this case, let's wait till Rafa hang his racquet and count how many GS he has won and then compare it with Roger.

Raindrops , 6/18/10 1:22 PM


rain, rain, rain :P
i agree with everything you say, but it still does not answer my question which is-
"according to you, is rafa CURRENTLY better than roger or not??" since i think that was the only point we disagreed upon..
a simple yes or no would do..
of course if you do not wish to touch upon that topic, let us leave it, and then i absolutely agree with you.. :-)
its just as you said..
we will wait till rafa hangs up his boots, after which i'm sure rafa will overtake fed as the better guy...

clayking , 6/18/10 1:28 PM


I did say YES clayking.

Raindrops , 6/18/10 1:42 PM


nadline, 6/18/10 11:18 AM Apologies. I took the comment at face value and was dreading the start of another all-out punch up with rabid Fedfans.

ed251137 , 6/18/10 1:43 PM


then we disagree rain upon this one thing..
currently rafa is below fed and he has some catching up to do..
but then differences are what makes things interesting.. :P

clayking , 6/18/10 1:51 PM


The catch up job of Rafa has started Year 2008 but was hampered by injury, giving Roger the chance to get closer to Sampras Record of most weeks at No. 1 and also given a bigger opportunity to win RG, which he did. Prior to Madrid 2009 Nadal scored a 5-0 wins (included 3 GS) against Roger, alas Rafa got injured.

Now both are healthy and both have won each GS this year but that's not enough to tell who is currently better, we have to look onto other lesser tournaments and Rafa is far better than Roger that is why Rafa reclaimed almost everything he lost when he got injured, with the exception of Queens so far.

Hope Rafa continue playing well to get back on his oldself like 2008, seems he is fit and healthy. What about Roger? There must be a reason why he lost his No. 1 Ranking.

If Rafa has a lot of catching up to do, then Roger has to evade the age that cathing him up.

Therefore, Roger got Rafa and Age catching him up. What law should we apply in here...the Diminishing Returns?

Raindrops , 6/18/10 2:29 PM


clayking, not correct. The second half NA hard court swing is after the heavy loaded clay season that Rafa always played. Imagine he playing 5 clay events every year, from 2005 to 2009, plus two grass tournaments, all done within 3 months. That's why he always ended up jaded in the second half of the year. Your argument that he is as fresh as he was at the beginning of the year doesn't hold true. If not, why are the other players jaded too towards the end of the season??

How many players played as many clay tournaments, and won most of them as Rafa did? And how many players after a very successful clay season went on to reach the Wimbledon final for three consecutive years? Even Fed couldn't do that! Fed always didn't do well in one of the three clay masters, and he skipped Halle twice, in 2007 and 2009.

We know Rafa is better on slow hard court than fast ones. The fatigue factor doesn't help too. We shall wait and see how he handle the fast hard courts this season. Having skip Rotterdam due to injury, and skip Barcelona by choice, Rafa may be fresher this year for his assault of the NA hard court season.

luckystar , 6/18/10 2:47 PM


I agree with you Raindrops...........I think Rafa is better!!

I believe the ONLY reason why most may disagree is because of the number of GS that Fed has won, but I am saying on any given sunday, if Rafa and Fed are playing on ANY surface, I would give Rafa the edge! Granted given Rafa's limitations when it comes to the USO, only there I would give Federer the edge.

That is just how i see it.......plain and simple!

Monalysa , 6/18/10 2:50 PM


Monalysa,

This may not be sound so arrogant from a Rafan, but I would give Rafa an edge over Roger at US Open, if Rafa survives the bombers and reach finals and Roger as well.

Reason: from Roger's own admittance, he has problem with Rafa which is proven time and again, look for the head to head. So meeting Roger at any surfance is not a big problem with Rafa since Roger is not categorized as one of the bombers.

Raindrops , 6/18/10 3:02 PM


*** Hope this is not sound so arrogant

Raindrops , 6/18/10 3:07 PM


i'm not really following your discussions guys but just catching few lines i thought an article i just happen to read might interest a few - on cash's perspective.

Pat Cash questions Federer quality (January 17, 2010)

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/pat-cash-questions-fed erer-quality/story-e6frexni-1225820392000

homos , 6/18/10 3:13 PM


@Raindrops

"Reason: from Roger's own admittance, he has problem with Rafa which is proven time and again, look for the head to head. So meeting Roger at any surfance is not a big problem with Rafa since Roger is not categorized as one of the bombers."

True very true and logical too!!

I wish there could be atleast one final b/w roger & rafa at flushing medows!! :)

then all will get a clear picture about the surface too !!

mani4Tennis , 6/18/10 3:15 PM


the only reason fed is better is because his achievements say so...
fed has been the model of consistency, as simple as that..
nadal is currently by no means better, and i certainly do not mean H2H..
he can become better, and he will, once his career ends..
but he is not better now..
and when we say fed is better than rafa now, obviously we mean all the accomplishments that fed has achieved till now..
actually when you say rafa is better now, what is the yardstick you use to say that??
is it H2H??
the h2h is simply a case of bad matchup..
I for one cannot see davy being the greater player despite that on a fast hard court, he will win over rafa more often than not and will have a good H2H, if they meet on hards 60% time in their career..
this is why fedfans often argue here..
some arguments here about rafa are just not true..

rain,
that is by no means arrogant..
rafa is certainly a bad matchup to fed, and whatever the surface, the edge is with rafa..
rafa has become a better player and it has been 3 years since fed won a match against rafa while both were in top notch condition..
fed has only gone down since, while rafa has only become better..
so, no way can fed defeat a fit and fine rafa in US either..
(but that still does not make rafa better, as of yet)

luckystar,
You forget something..
clay and grass do not sap rafa's energy while hards does..
before the NA swing he plays a lot of events on surfaces, that according to him, are easier on player's stamina and health..
now 5 weeks are certainly enough to overcome the tiredness (for a fit rafa atleast)..
but the NA swing is pretty brutal as it is on hards and rafa has expressed his displeasure in recent past, as it is pretty taxing..
so, after a brutal NA swing, a 5 week rest may not be enough.. and don't forget in between these 5 events, rafa's services have always been required for the davis cup finals, where the opponents are tougher..
And you forget to factor rafa's capability to recover faster than other players, if he is given ample recovery time, and provided he is 100%..
Well, of course this year I do think he will better in NA swing, but that is not because he skipped rotterdam or barca, that is because he has matured and become a better player..

P.S. rain & mona,
it is frankly awkward that i'm arguing for fed..
but really we are disrespecting him here by painting him as being inferior to rafa..
being a greater player is not decided by H2H, but by their achievements..
I made an example up there that edberg is considered the slightly greater player despite that becker has mauled edberg 25-10..
the case is the same here, except that rafa's career will be longer than fed's and he will close down the gap and possibly overtake fed..
I rest my case, where i had to defend someone i'm used to attacking.. :P

clayking , 6/18/10 3:28 PM


@clayking

"being a greater player is not decided by H2H, but by their achievements.."

I made the same point earlier in this forum but some people dont wants to agree !!



Roger fans wants to talk anything about roger except H2H with Rafa

Rafa wants to talk anything about rafa but must including H2H with roger


so there is a contradiction in agenda :P

mani4Tennis , 6/18/10 3:38 PM


clayking, we'll never agree on this. To think that Rafa only gets tired once he plays on hard courts is simply not true. You see, the clay season begins one week after Miami. The IW/Miami tournaments are consecutive tournaments on hard courts, and if Rafa only feels tired playing on hard courts, how do you account for his brilliant performances each year on clay?? Didn't he spent two and a half weeks on hard court before proceeding to clay? And you forget Rafa's tendinitis problems. Playing in too many tournaments without much rest in between will aggravate the tendinitis problem, regardless of surface. If not why would Rafa want to miss his beloved Barcelona tournament this year? On top of all these, he still has his DC obligations, and sometimes that may call for surface changes, which may make things worst for him.

My conclusion is: If the USO and the warm up tournaments are played at the beginning of the year, I foresee better results for Rafa. However, Rafa is still better on slow hard courts than fast ones.

luckystar , 6/18/10 3:47 PM


luckystar,
"If the USO and the warm up tournaments are played at the beginning of the year, I foresee better results for Rafa."

do you mean better than results of 2008?
maybe, if you say so..
I respect your opinion on this since you know more than me on this..
but yes, rafa is surely better on slower hardcourts..
and his results would be better on AO..
I think the argument starte from which rafa was better..
rafa of USO 2008 or rafa of AO 2009..
and my point is both were equal..
that has been, till now, his best form on H/Cs

clayking , 6/18/10 4:12 PM


clayking, if you are talking about 2008, then you have to take into consideration the Olympics. Do you know Rafa had to play Toronto (5 matches), Cincy (4 matches to SF), Olympics (6 matches) before playing at the USO (6 matches to the SF). So before he arrived at the USO, he had already played 15 matches on hard courts. That explained why he was exhausted then. Of course Murray played the match of his life during that SF to beat Rafa, and even then he had to take it in four sets, that shown us how good Rafa already was then.

Yes, by better results, I mean he may get to the final, maybe even winning against Fed in the final. Because of the Olympics, I felt it had cost Rafa a final appearance at the USO. ( I know some Murray fans may not agree with me, but that is my opinion). Rafa at USO 08 vs Rafa at AO 09, to me if no exhaustion problem, Rafa's level is the same for both tournaments.

luckystar , 6/18/10 4:26 PM


so luckystar,
glad that we agree on it that both the rafas were equal.. :)

clayking , 6/18/10 4:28 PM


I think that the US 08 Rafa was as good as the AO 09 one,but the slower surface helps rafas game more,and the 08 one was tired MENTALLY due to his exertions throughout the course of they year opposed to the AO 09 one.

@clayking
i agree with you that a superior h2h doesnt mean that you are better than that player. heck,thats like saying kracijecks better than Sampras,or Simon's better than Federer..

tj600 , 6/18/10 4:40 PM


So tj600, exactly what does it mean, then?!!!!

Monalysa , 6/18/10 10:05 PM


well ppl often bring this simon-fed kracijeck-pete thing, there are many but u cant comapre this to nadal-federer , nada-federer have played on all surfaces and have played a lot in slams , again all surfaces... simon is 2-1 so 3 matches on hard courts are nothing so nadal -fed h2hd is MORE significan than manyn fed fans think it to be

on the other hands rafans use it to say rafa is better which doesnt make sense...only h2hd is nt sufficient becoz we have more imp criteria... but nadal-fed h2hd is diff and has a lof of significance.

vamosrafa , 6/18/10 11:24 PM


So are we saying that a 17.8 h2h against Hewitt in favour of Federer doesn't mean anything? A h2h over 3 matches is meaningless, but over 21 matches on all surfaces surely must count for something.

VAMOS!

nadline , 6/18/10 11:49 PM


h2h of simon/roger is immaterial, couple of matches can be settled, it's just simply a blip. BUT if the h2h between two giants who are in the same league is LOPSIDED, then NO MATTER how you try to twist your brain and no matter how you try to extract other h2h to make it as reference is just doesn't work. FEDERER is INFERIOR to Rafa.

You can say that h2h does not matter at all if Rafa is just an average player whose rank is outside top10 and no GS under his belt, BUT IT IS NOT, Rafa is the only person who kicked Roger from the top stop and winning slam against him. In other words, Rafa and Roger are in the same league so H2H between the two of them is very significant.

Federer only looks better because he is ahead of Rafa but rate them by the age of Rafa now and you will see that Rafa is far better than Roger.

Since Rafa is on his Prime Time, he has to collect GS as many as he can because that's the only edge that Roger has against him.

Vamos Rafa.

I rest my case.

Raindrops , 6/19/10 6:05 AM


I said i rested my case, but I would like to add a small thing.
Someone asked when does H2H matter.
H2H matters when we are comparing players who stand on equal footing.
For example Lendl McEnroe..
Both have nearly equal accomplishments.
But when comparing them as singles players, often Lendl is said to be the better player. 'coz, Lendl has a h2h of 21-15 against jmac.
But the case with rafa is he is not at an equal footing to roger.
All the rafans who claim rafa is better than roger , answer this question..
Is rafa of 2010, with 7 gs, 18 masters and 40 titles+ 49 weeks at no.1 better than fed with 16 GS, 16 masters and 62 titles+ 285 weeks at no.1?
Or is rafa of 2014, with say 15 GS, 34 masters and 80 titles + 200 weeks and counting at no.1 better than fed with say 17 GS, 17 masters and 67 titles and 285 weeks at no.1??
decide for yourself whether you want to compare today's rafa to fed, with a feeble case of H2H , or you will wait for him to become better and then do the comparing, when you can use the H2H to support your case which would be something like 20-9.
This was my point all time, that rafa of now is a notch below fed, but with time on his side he will become greater than fed for sure.
So, rafans let us wait before saying rafa is better than fed.

clayking , 6/19/10 6:53 AM


Raindrops,

YOu give the edge toe NAdal on the US open, are your a retard?? Federer made 6 finals in a row and won 5 of them!! Nadal never made the final and you think he is better???? You dont know nothing abou tennis as far is i can say!

taxon , 6/19/10 7:21 AM


taxon,

On all surfaces, Rafa has all the advantage against Roger. I am well aware that Rafa didn't reach the final of US Open yet, so if you go back and read again my old post, I said: If both Rafa and Roger reach the finals, then Rafa has edge over Roger. Obviously you omit the REASON that I put there that's why you are calling me a retard.

Raindrops , 6/19/10 7:51 AM


Raindrops, I agree with you. If they both reach the finals, I give the edge to Rafa based on their track record. Of course Rafa has to get there first but it's similar to his AO performance. He never made it past the SF until he won in 2009. So we know he can do it. Everything has to work in his favour and he must definitely organize his schedule wisely. I believe he can do it.

remi , 6/19/10 8:46 AM


We all know Federer has this uncanny way of showing up in GS finals even if the rest of his season is below par.

But much less is talked about the way Rafa also raises his level for the big ones in exactly the same way. In what was otherwise a disastrous year in 2009, he started by winning the AO and then after a six-week injury layoff fought through a tough draw (in spite of a stomach muscle tear) to reach US open SF before succumbing to the eventual winner.

I for one fully expect to see them in another Wimby final. These two guys know more about playing the slams than the rest of the field put together.

ed251137 , 6/19/10 11:50 AM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioE_O7Lm0I4&feature=player_embedded

Think it is time to find some inspiration. That is all it takes, Class is permanent after all.

FEDistheGOAT , 6/20/10 2:49 AM


regguid, 6/15/10 4:58 PM I have just spotted your entry early on this thread and have to agree the 'veterans' are the unsung heroes of the ATP tour. There are a many players who toil away for years without the results commensurate with their skills. Some have known glory in the past: others have been labelled journeymen. But they are the players who keep tennis alive just as much as the high-profile stars.

ed251137 , 6/20/10 10:25 AM


This h2h thing has got into the HEAD of everyone arround this site. Rafel Nadal has the game (and advantage) to beat Roger Federer many more times if they at all meet from here on. I will be too happy to watch those meetings as, when and if they happen.

Roger Federer irrespective of his class and form had always a small element of risk when contesting a Lefty on any surface if and I repeat if, the lefty is a very good and very consistent player and that is what Rafel Nadal had become very soon.

Rafel Nadal has proven his mastery on the slow CLAY surfaces by defeating one and all consistently over the last six years with only one loss to Robin when not fully fit. He had also beaten Roger once on Grass and once on Suynthetic Surface at AO. Without being an outstanding player it would have not been possible to do that.

Roger had been beaten on Grass only in two matches since 2003 and have six slams on grass, four at AO and five on hard at US. Without being the very best it would not have been possible.

From the performances till now Rafael Nadal is the better player on CLAY on allother surfaces Roger Federer has been better than Rafel Nadal.

Loud and Clear!

Over and Out!

newfangkc , 6/22/10 2:38 PM


newfangkc - Yes of course, given Fed's age and time in the tours. Just give Rafa another three years to prove himself. He may end up being very good on every surface! Only time will tell, no point arguing who is better now. Rafa has proven his worth so far that he can be the world no.1; for how long nobody knows. The most important thing is he has done the hard work of taking down the 'GOAT' to become no.1; something many other former no.1s didn't have to do. So, let the Rafa fans like myself enjoy this time of Rafa's career. Whatever happens in future is anybody's guess so we can worry for that in future and not now.

luckystar , 6/22/10 3:15 PM


newfangkc,

We are not deaf! You don't need to add on such gratuitous comments at the end of your post. We can all read here.

Nativenewyorker , 6/23/10 3:04 AM


Roger had been beaten on Grass only in two matches since 2003 and have six slams on grass, four at AO and five on hard at US. Without being the very best it would not have been possible.

From the performances till now Rafael Nadal is the better player on CLAY on allother surfaces Roger Federer has been better than Rafel Nadal.

Loud and Clear!

Over and Out!

newfangkc , 6/22/10 2:38 PM

____________

Until now!!!!!!!!!!!!

nadline , 7/13/10 4:00 PM


somebody stop the spammer..

vrael , 7/13/10 4:03 PM


This blog post has been around for a while now and I never got the chance to read it. It's an excellent post! No wonder it has generated so many responses.
Federer's legacy is undeniable. He has both the quality and the results to be considered the GOAT by many who care discuss that topic. As he gets older it only makes sense that his results may be less consistent than they were during his crushing global domination.
People obviously under-estimate tennis player's as athletes, yet very few sports if any are as demanding on all aspects of fitness, including speed, endurance, stamina, explosive power, dexterity and mental toughness.
Sorry Golf fans, but compared to tennis, Golf is a game, not a sport. And I can speak with knowledge. My father was a Golf pro, and now my brother is one also, along with several other family members. My dad, at 70 years of age and 100 lbs. overweight could beat many pro youngsters over 18 holes.
That's why I find comparisons to Tiger Woods utterly pointless. Roger is one of the best of all time, yet a small drop in fitness, and what happens? The other top players stomp all over him! To win in tennis you need the full package, body and mind working at 100% over and over though match after match, and if you win the tournament, a few days later you have to do it all over again, and again...
Roger (and also Rafa) are superhuman athletes in every sense of the word.

grafight , 7/13/10 7:15 PM



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Another Federer and Nadal match disappoints

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Tue 19/03 21:01
Professor Federer teaches us a thing or two

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Nadal makes the cleverest comeback in tennis history

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Nadal's return at Vina del Mar

Thu 15/11 16:54
Federer and company make no room at the top for youth

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There is something about Roger Federer

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